The H.O.F. Watch – Shawn Marion
Photo. Brandon SullivanEvery day for the next few weeks we’re gonna take one active NBA star with at least arguable Hall of Fame credentials and break down his chances of getting into the Springfield, Mass., hoops mecca. We’re looking at not just past accomplishments, but also how a player’s career realistically projects for the future. For a full explanation of the process, click here. Today’s candidate: Shawn Marion.
SHAWN MARION (9th year, Suns)
18.6 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 2.0 apg, 1.9 spg, 1.3 bpg
Why: Marion thinks he’s one of the best small forwards of all-time (just ask him), and his numbers almost put him in the discussion. Over his career he’s averaged more points than Scottie Pippen, James Worthy and Chris Mullin; more rebounds than Julius Erving, John Havlicek and Rick Barry; more steals than Larry Bird; more blocks than just about every great small forward aside from Erving. Even when you look at this generation’s next-to-blow superstar small forwards — LeBron and ‘Melo — Marion’s numbers trump those two in every category but points and assists. In a Western Conference that’s been loaded with star forwards throughout his career, “The Matrix” has four All-Star Game appearances under his belt, and he’s been on the All-NBA third team twice. And while he somehow doesn’t have an All-Defensive Team selection to his name, Marion is widely recognized as one of the premier defenders in the game today. He’s been a staple on winning teams, having made the playoffs all but twice in his career and playing in two Western Conference Finals. The current-day Phoenix Suns haven’t won a title yet, but they are one of this era’s most memorable teams, and Marion is arguably the engine that makes everything go, with his ability to play out of position as basically an undersized (6-7, 230) power forward and lock up other team’s scorers all over the court. He is one of his generation’s most unique and all-around effective ballplayers.
Why not: The most popular anti-Matrix arguments are that 1) he’s merely a product of Phoenix’s system, and 2) he’s benefited from playing with gifted point guards like Steve Nash, Jason Kidd and Stephon Marbury during his career. Marion is underrated, but at the same time he’s had some forgettable performances in the postseason and on the international stage. At this point in his career, Marion would likely have to win a championship or two plus a major individual award (Defensive Player of the Year?) to jump into Hall of Fame territory. And seeing as he’s made a career out of not getting his just due, it doesn’t seem like basketball’s top honor would be in the cards.
Our call: OUT
The H.O.F. Watch archives
10/12 – Ray Allen
10/11 – Chris Bosh
10/10 – Chris Webber
10/9 – Paul Pierce
10/5 – Jermaine O’Neal
10/4 – Gary Payton
10/3 – Tracy McGrady
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October 15th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
2 Easy says:
OO Dime my hat is literally off cause u guys deserve respect. Allen and Matrix? beautiful. Now, as I said in my Allen comment not just numbers attributes to ur place in the hall, if it was just numbers Matrix would be a lock cause quite frankly he’s a freak. He can score, rebound, block, steal, u name it however due to the fact that hes always had a somewat decent PG (Nash, Kidd, Marbury) thats gonna hurt his case. 2 of those 3 are arguably the best of all time, I’ll leave u to determine which lol. No offence but I believe most athletic dudes that have Nash runnin the show can do wat Matrix doin. As I said earlier individual accolades help ur HOF resume and the Matrix just doesnt have enough and if u pair that with his lack of playoff success (all against the Spurs for some reason) than hes OUT. I would love to put him in but I cant in all good conscience do it, SA makes him disappear too easily and I dont believe he could do all these things without Nash at the helm, but I could be wrong
October 15th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
Lucky Lester says:
I think he can do big things with anyone at the helm, even Steve Freaking Blake, if that was the case. He’s had good point guards, but so what? Does VC do what Matrix does? He has Jason Kidd, and I have to be honest, he doesn’t work his ass off for rebounds or playing defense, and he’s a lot softer than Marion.
Give me an example of a guy who did what Shawn does when playing with Nash or Kidd….
I’m holding off judgment for now.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
JA says:
If either having a good point guard on your team or running an up-tempo style offence can keep someone out of the hall, then the aforementioned Worthy … (insert Dr Evil delivery here) … wouldn’t be worthy??
Note that Worthy had career averages of 17.6ppg, 5.1 rbg, 1.1 spg, and .67bpg – and he had Magic Johnson (the PG with the highest assists-per-game average in NBA history) passing him the ball.
October 15th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
Austin Burton says:
The difference: Worthy has the hardware and he was an amazing college player. (The HOF counts all levels of basketball.)
October 15th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
nick says:
comparing worthy to matrix is not a good one because he did win some rings and that is the main reason why the matrix is not in the hof at this point.
October 15th, 2007 at 1:26 pm
flyp says:
With the mention of Worthy and his college career helping him get into the Hall, the question arises: during this age of players spending one year in NCAA hoops before bouncing to the L, will there ever be another great player who sticks around all 4 years in college hoops before declaring?
And whom among today’s NBAers has a college resume impressive enough to get them a head start on the path to the HOF? If JJ pans out to have a mediocre but solid NBA career, does he knock on the Hall’s door? What if ‘Melo becomes an international stud but never reaches the next level during the NBA sched?
October 15th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
Austin Burton says:
Wouldn’t Duncan be the last great 4-year college player?
October 15th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
Bron42 says:
marion killed in community college too before goin to UNLV and owning. Also saying any athletic guy can do what marion does with nash running the point is dumb cuz like we’ve mentioned tons of times, nash hasnt’ really effected marions stats. And there have been other athletes on the suns. If alando tucker and DJ suddenly produce marion type stats all of a sudden, than maybe you’ll have a case but the guys stats say enough over the length of his career and its not even done yet.
October 15th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
fiyaman says:
Out. He has good stats but doesnt dominate any 1 stat.
October 15th, 2007 at 2:43 pm
Kobeef says:
Always finish this sentence when considering Hall of Fame:
“20 years from now we will remember him for……???”
I can’t really think of anythng for matrix except being a good fantasy basketball pick (putting up numbers) and his weird shot. And putting up bad numbers in the playoffs.
Kirilenko and G. Wallace do most of the same things but without the weird shot. Josh Smith might do it all but better (and is a Dunk Champ) when all is said and done.
October 15th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
flyp says:
Kobeef says:
“I can’t really think of anythng for matrix except being a good fantasy basketball pick”
And on that note, how long before someone makes a Fantasy Basketball Hall of Fame where stat stuffers like Marion and Gerald Wallace are adored, Steve Nash’s defense is a non-issue and Vince Carter’s whiny-face is forgotten?
October 15th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
Russ says:
While he is one of the most versatile players there has ever been, and fun to watch…he’s not there yet. Like someone mentioned above, he doesn’t dominate any one thing, he’s just good at a lot of things. Or simply put, he is not a dominate player. The stat arguments you guys mentioned are full of holes. The only reason he averages more points than guys like pippen and mullin is because those guys stayed around about 4 years too long chasing a ring only playing like 15 minutes a night at best on teams that were alreaded loaded with scorers. The one year scottie was THE MAN in chicago they were one HORRIBLE UNEXPLAINABLE PHANTOM call by Hue hollins from the eastern conference finals. Marion has never been THE GUY, and if he ever was, I don’t think he would have that much success as guys like pippen did. He gets most of his points simply from his freakish athletic ability(tips, put backs, alley-oops etc.) as opposed to actually being able to ISO and get a bucket when you need one. And saying you average more steals than one of the most PHYSICALLY UNGIFTED athletes in professional sports history(Bird)is not exactly something to brag about.
October 15th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
sans says:
Seriously, he’s in. His shot is this generation’s Alex English, another great player on an uptemmpo team that never really did anything, and this guy is as tenacious as Rodman, but with an offensive game. 18 per without any plays being called for him. He does his damnedest to make up for an entire team that doesn’t play D (with the one exception of Raja Bell). Seriously, I do not know why people are so high up on Pippen’s dick and at the same time dis Marion. He’s pure hustle, and three more years like the ones he’s been having, he should be in the Hall.
Oh, by the way, the ability to work within a system, as opposed to clearing out and going into a me-against-the-world ISO, is way better basketball.
October 15th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
Bron42 says:
Sans has a point, don’t people usually complain how guys like kobe and lebron play 1 on 5? then were hating on marion for not doing that and doing EVERYTHING to make sure he teams motor keeps going. You say he doesn’t dominate one thing? well he hasnt really been asked to do that and still puts up crazy stats. Just look at last season when they had the suspensions and he carried the suns by himself for the first half. The guy can play so you cant hate him for not having to go out and put up 40 a night, although hes shown he can put up the numbers when he has to. out the whole nba the only guys who come close to that production are gerald wallace, josh howard, josh smith and AK. None of them have been doin it as long or on good teams. And stop saying hes a factor of the suns system or nash. he was doin it since he was drafted AND everyone though joe johnson was a suns creation too. Its not like marion is tim thomas or something.
October 15th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
Russ says:
I agree that 1 on 5 is bad for the game as a whole, as far as playing that way the whole game. It’s one of the reason we have played so poorly in international comp…one guys dribbles into oblivion while the other 4 watch him. But I think there are certain times in a game that you need to be able to give a guy the ball and say get me a bucket on this particlar posession..and I’m not sure marion is that guy.
I think if you ran plays for him you would actually see a drop off…it’s just not his game to create.
But I said at the beginning the guy can play and is entertaining as hell… I’m just saying that doesn’t equate to being a HOF’er. He’s got a good chance depending on how the rest of his career goes…especially how his game has moved up the last 2-3 years.
October 15th, 2007 at 6:02 pm
Bron42 says:
Ya but is the hall of fame just for kobe bryant type guys who score? Sure, with the game on the line your not expecting marion to cross, double pump and hit the 3…should that keep him out the hall of fame? If he was mediocre i’d be the quickest not only to agree but hate on him like the rest of you. But he brings so much else to the table you can’t really over look it even though he doesn’t give you 40 point games 24/7. Not to bring up the comparison but pippen wasnt really your face up, gilbert arenas type scorer either but he brought alot of other things to the table and did what was asked of him.
October 15th, 2007 at 6:07 pm
dagwaller says:
For some reason, when comparing Marion’s candidacy for the Hall, I’m reminded of Dominique Wilkins. Ridiculous in our hearts and minds, tons of great stats and games, but in hindsight, that’s about it. Neither of them won a whole lot (so far, in Marion’s case). I think that Wilkins was probably better, and it STILL took him 10 years or so to get into the Hall. In other words, Marion’s gonna have to do a lot more, both individually and team-wise, to make it in.
Also, to say that Larry Bird is one of the most PHYSICALLY UNGIFTED athletes in professional sports history at the end of an argument kind of undercuts the whole thing, Russ.
Bron, you’re right, he hasn’t been asked to run a team or be relied upon too much. And until he IS, it’s hard to prove how good of a player he is.
I would agree with you, though, that it means more to produce on a winning team than it does to do so on a losing team – which is why he’s getting more props now that nash is running the show, and joe johnson (just like josh smith) shouldn’t get as much individual credit, since, yknow, he’s on the hawks.
October 15th, 2007 at 6:45 pm
Russ says:
I’m not quite sure I follow your response to my comments about Bird?
Is there something about what I said that is incorrect?
Just so there is no confusion, Larry Bird is one of my top 5 favorite players of all-time..I even was watching my Larry Legend DVD last night to reminisce. He is a top 50 of all time player, one of the best pure shooters the game has ever seen, and an outstanding passer just to name a few. But that doesn’t change the fact he has the vertical leap of 3 inches and runs the 40 in about a half hour. How does that not qualify as PHYSICALLY UNGIFTED??
I just didn’t see how it was a good argument on their part to say he averages more steals than Bird did..when Bird wasn’t exactly known as all-world defender. He was certaintly never given the assignment to lock down the other teams best player every night. Generally speaking most of the top defender/steals people are extremely quick etc……Bird is/was not. Never made all defensive first team in a 13 year career. He did make second team, but that was only 3 times and very early in his career at that. Not to mention Marion only bests him by less than .2, while playing less years…it’s quite possible his numbers will decline as his physical skills diminish and he could end up with less.
October 15th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
doc says:
I would say no, at least win a ring or award or somthing. Its a lot of players i’d start a team with before him including 2 on his own team so if they dont win nothing hes shit outta luck.
October 15th, 2007 at 10:24 pm
big rob says:
If there was ever a year for marion to really solidify himself as a dominate player, this is it. If I am not mistaken, he hasn’t been dealt after the trade request. So since he seems like he is playing so another team will want to deal for him by the trade dealine, he might wanna average 20+ ppg, 11 or 12+ rpg, 2.5+ spg/bpg a game and raise his assist. Seems unattainable but that’s what it will probably take. chipchicccc
October 16th, 2007 at 11:44 am
sirak says:
he makes the HOF and wins MVP of ugly jump shots…
October 16th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
bron42 says:
well kevin martin, peja, jason kidd and chuck hayes also have pretty funky shots
October 17th, 2007 at 3:11 am
Knickhopeful says:
If we started to vote based on the amount of plays called (or lack of) and beauty (or lack of) of shot, wouldn’t we be giving Dennis Rodman a go at the HOF? Marion is out. If Marion flourishes when he is traded to another team, maybe I’d think about it again for one second. For argument sake, if she stays with the Suns and wins the championship this season, I doubt people will be talking about him (now or in the future).
October 23rd, 2007 at 5:00 pm
solarguns says:
Does anyone remember the game that we lost Amare and Diaw? The valiant effort that was put up that night was led by who?? Marion may not be Reggie Miller when it comes to clutch time, but he has shown an ability to kick it up a notch. Suns win 2 rings with him, Nash, and Stat and they’ll all be HOF.
October 26th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
Ian Blaze says:
Mad respect to Dime, but I dont think it is fair to compare numbers and accolades of ballas today and tomorrow.
You can give me all of the players you labeled as “out” in their prime and then you can pick some HOF players in their prime from 50′s to the 80′s and I dont think it would be a contest.
People are going to hate me for saying this, but Nique, Bird, and Pippen, are three of the most overrated players of all time.
When Pippen was selected as one of the top 50 of all time and people put Bird in the same conversation as MJ and MJ, I knew basketball lore would be tarnished forever.
November 2nd, 2007 at 8:12 am
the_don_mega says:
” People are going to hate me for saying this, but Nique, Bird, and Pippen, are three of the most overrated players of all time. ”
why you hatin’ Ian Blaze?
November 8th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
nikko says:
They should definitely put him in just so they could make a life size statue of the ugliest jump shot in the history of the universe. Him out, jump shot statue in.