Photo courtesy Steve & Barry’sEvery day we’re taking one active NBA star with at least arguable Hall of Fame credentials and breaking down his chances of getting into the Springfield, Mass., hoops mecca. We’re looking at not just past accomplishments, but also how a player’s career realistically projects for the future. For a full explanation of the process, click here. Today’s candidate: Ben Wallace.
BEN WALLACE (12th year, Bulls/Pistons/Magic/Wizards)
6.6 points, 10.7 rebounds, 2.2 blocks, 1.3 steals per game
Why: Defense. Big Ben is a four-time NBA Defensive Player of the Year winner and six-time All-Defensive Team honoree. In the history of the DPOY award (dating back to 1983), only Dikembe Mutombo has won it as many times. Wallace has led the League in rebounding twice, in blocks once, and finished in the Top 10 in steals twice. From ‘00-06 he was the heart, soul and face of the Pistons, the defining Eastern Conference team of the decade. Their run was highlighted by an NBA championship in ‘04. Wallace’s career numbers don’t look as impressive since he spent the first three years of his career as a backup, but since becoming a regular starter, he’s averaged around 12 boards, 2.5 blocks and 1.5 steals. In an era that caters to offense, Big Ben worked to the top of the sport as an undersized (6-8) defensive center.
Why not: Offense. The Hall of Fame isn’t all about scoring points, but Wallace’s deficiencies on the offensive end are glaring. He’s never averaged more than 9.7 points in a season, he’s not a great passer, and his habit of air-balling free throws — he’s a career 41 percent shooter from the stripe — has become as trademark as his headband. Simply put, Big Ben is a liability at the one end of the floor that gets the most attention. And this season, while he’s supposed to be the leader of a contending Chicago team, he seems to have fallen off dramatically, averaging 1.2 blocks and less five rebounds per game through Tuesday.
Our call: IN
The H.O.F. Watch archive
11/13 - Sam Cassell
11/12 - LeBron James
11/9 - Tim Duncan
11/8 - Steve Nash
11/7 - Yao Ming
11/6 - Gilbert Arenas
11/5 - Robert Horry
11/2 - Kobe Bryant
11/1 - Grant Hill
10/31 - Dirk Nowitzki
10/30 - Tony Parker
10/29 - Elton Brand
10/26 - Carmelo Anthony
10/25 - Vince Carter
10/24 - Penny Hardaway
10/23 - Alonzo Mourning
10/22 - Allen Iverson
10/19 - Dwyane Wade
10/18 - Chauncey Billups
10/17 - Stephon Marbury
10/16 - Jason Kidd
10/15 - Shawn Marion
10/12 - Ray Allen
10/11 - Chris Bosh
10/10 - Chris Webber
10/9 - Paul Pierce
10/5 - Jermaine O’Neal
10/4 - Gary Payton
10/3 - Tracy McGrady
Related posts:
November 14th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
Charles-K says:
I would have to agree with the fact that he is in. Four defensive POY’s is two many to disagree with. He has also got a ring, and alot of other deep playoff runs. No he isn’t offensive at all, but he was the definitive defensive player for more than half of a decade. However, with all of that said, we will have to see how far his career averages dip as he plays for the next years. If they go below a certain number, i don’t really know what, his resume might be a bit lacking. 4 DPOY’s and a ring look good though so…
IN
November 14th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Daniel says:
OUT.
November 14th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
RAP says:
Is this joke?
November 14th, 2007 at 12:24 pm
sam says:
with they way he’s playing now? OUT
i can’t see how you can let this guy in and keep dirk out.
November 14th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
MiCkeY MoNDaY says:
there’s no way in the world that ben wallace is a hall a famer……nice try tho
November 14th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
buckets says:
pre-chi IN..if he doesnt start stepping it up soon tho..i gota say OUT
November 14th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
T.M.P.B.W.O.T.P. says:
To those saying Ben is definitely out: Four DPOYs don’t mean anything to you? You do realize there are two sides to a basketball court, right? Dirk has 1 MVP — which is essentially the Offensive Player of the Year award. If he had 4, he’d be in the HOF easy.
November 14th, 2007 at 12:50 pm
marcus says:
Are yall high over there at Dime? OUT. Yes he was an amazing defensive player for a few years but hes fallen off the face of the NBA map as quickly as he appeared on it. HOF is for the best of the best, not players whove had a few good seasons on one side of the ball.
November 14th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Damon says:
mvp the offensive player of the year award? cmon now
btw, if dirk had as much mvps as wallace has dpoys, he be in?
so mvp and dpoy are the same?
wallace had 5 good years and is in?
if wallace is in, so is dirk
November 14th, 2007 at 12:56 pm
Gee says:
Eaaaaaaaaaaaaasssy! Ok Yes based on his past accomplishments but for real dude current work is about to mess all that up. Yes, I feel that your current play can count against you. I mean if you are going to be elite then stay elite. If he doesn’t pick his game back up them I am saying no.
Some players are a lock (T.D., A.I., KB, Shaq and others). Some have to continue to show work (T-Mac, J-Kidd (yes even him)D-Wade ,T.P. and others.
Ben has to not only get back to H.O.F. playing but maintain that level.
Not to mention dude wasn’t really on the scene before he went to the D. His numbers were not even rocking till he went to the D. So is it that it was so much him, cause if it was wouldnt he still be posting numbers and being a “major factor”. To me his number are starting to be what they were before the D. His triump could be attributed to the system Detroit ran in a large respect.
He has to show it’s him that is H.O.F. worthy regradless of the system.
Not saying he didn’t deserve the awards, just saying ok now lets go get those awards again or at least be up for mention of those awards. Right now he ain’t hittin on ish!
You can’t go from sugar to shiiiii!
November 14th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
T.M.P.B.W.O.T.P. says:
I’d say Mutombo is in. Would the rest of you agree? And what has Mutombo done that Wallace hasn’t? And Wallace not only has a ring, he was the best player on the team that won the ring.
@Damon - What is MVP then, if not Offensive Player of the Year? It usually goes to a guy who averages at least 20 ppg (or in Nash’s case, 10 apg). It’s like that in every sport. Baseball has the MVP, whereas the Cy Young is for the other side of the game. Football has the MVP and the DPOY.
November 14th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
DOC says:
he had clamps in his prime and got a rock they might let him in. But i wouldnt put him top 20 centers ever so no
November 14th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Tom Toronto says:
If defense means anything to the HOF voters he’s got to be IN. He’s a bit one-sided, but as some of the DIME crew has said, if you’re the best at something in the L, you’ve got to be considered. No question for those few years, Big Ben was the best defensive player in the Association. Plus he got himself a ring as a starter, which to me counts for more than getting rings Horry-style.
So I’m going to say IN, with the condition that he has to have a couple of good years (at least) in the CHI, cuz this year he’s been a big liability.
November 14th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
JA says:
Don’t open up the Mutombo comparison - it makes you come across as not having a clue.
November 14th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
2 Easy says:
Now once the Hall builds a wing for its best defenders, Mutombo and Big Ben had hold that wing down but until then I dont think Bens in (and yes that means I think Mutombo’s in) Difference betweetn the 2? Consistency. Mutombo is damn near 50 AND STILL puttin it down on the defensive side of the ball while Big Ben is down jack to earn his money. Right now hes not even the best defender on his team, he’s gettin outshined by a 2nd year player who is so raw he’s got salmonella. So if Big Ben can prove it just wasnt Rick Carlise/Larry Brown’s master plan that allowed him to shine and his skills than he’s in but if we cant put so many players previously listed in based on 4-5 good years than he cant be in, it just isnt right. I respect the weight his ring holds but lets keep in mind who won the MVP of that finals and we agreed was out too.
November 14th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
JA says:
Ohhhhh … I like that: Real-rings vs Horry-rings.
Solid Tom.
November 14th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
fiyaman says:
I say he’s out and I also think Mutombo is in. Mutombo was a better offensive player and FT shooter and is still dominant. Wallace had a few gd yrs on 1tean (remember was with Orlando and Washington and no one new about him. he wasnt even drafted)
Every team that Deke has been on u’ve known he was there. Even for he Rockets and he aint even playing.
November 14th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
fiyaman says:
oh .to JA ..I guess i dont have a clue!!
November 14th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
djKianoosh says:
if he turns it around this year and truly helps chi-town get deep in the playoffs, like eastern finals against the celts, then follows it up with another similar performance next year. and then follows that up…. you get my point.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
dre in o town says:
whenever players win a championship they do so as a team. ben wallace didn’t win a championship, the pistons won as a team. he is a defensive beast but everyone knows on offense he couldn’t shoot himself in the foot. based on what he did to help his team win i think his is at least a legitimate choice for consideration.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
Bron42 says:
everyone needs to quit tryin to look for excuses to get dirk in. hes not. plain and simple. being the best 7′0 shooter and one MVP does not make you a lock for the hall of fame.
Ben has 4 defensive player of the year award (which like they said, is pretty much the opposite over MVP which just goes to the best scorer on the best record team as of late) not to mention ben has a ring and almost had a second one.
Then on top of that you say ben can’t get in cuz he only had a few HOF years, then that would also cancel out dirk and nash whose best years have been like the last 2-3.
Also, isn’t dirk like one of 2 people under 7′0 to lead the league in rebounds or something like that? wasn’t it just him and rodman?
I’d say hes in but by a slim margin.
Seriously, I love how people say things about one player, and when that same issue is brought up about a player they like, it doesnt count.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Bron42 says:
Oh ya and tom, robert horry has 7 rings, ben has 1 so even if horrys are somehow magical and dont count his clutch shooting that won him at least 3 of those rings would easily match wallaces blocks that won him his one ring.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
Bron42 says:
no what dime needs to do next, hall of fame coaches…since guys like pat,phil and skiles are havin their issues.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
Bron42 says:
ben* not dirk
Also, isn’t ben like one of 2 people under 7′0 to lead the league in rebounds or something like that? wasn’t it just him and rodman?
November 14th, 2007 at 2:23 pm
smity says:
Like a few here have said,if he continues to put up the numbers that he’s put up in the past (in detroit) for the rest of his career then he should be in. Ben Wallace (and artest) made it cool to be defensive minded (wallace and artest-not bowen) after Rodman left people’s minds…but damn, chicago (all of you all) step it up…
November 14th, 2007 at 2:23 pm
Bust Jlaze says:
I feel like dude is IN just for the way he plays defense. He’s the only guy that I’ve seen who can go on “blocking streaks” like guards can go on “shooting streaks”. Rediculous. He’s definitely on the decline now, and if that doesn’t get handled, it’ll hurt his chances. But I don’t think the Hall is exclusive to just the “successful” players, like the ones with deep playoff runs and what-not. Dude’s defense gets him in. He’s one of the best ever at it.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
smity says:
Bron- (even though i understand your intention) theres no need to ever mention the name Scott Skiles in the same sentence as the phrase “Hall of Fame Coach”.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:32 pm
fiyaman says:
lmao @smity i was saying the same thing..lol
November 14th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
dagwaller says:
It doesn’t make sense to compare him to Dirk for a couple reasons. One, as always, it doesn’t matter what Dirk’s done, with regards to Ben getting into the HOF. Secondly, they’re not even the same kind of player.
It would make more sense to compare him to Deke or Rodman. If he gets in, you’d have to say that they need to get in. I’m definitely ok with them getting in, although Ben himself is closer to the line.
Does anyone know of any other defensive aces that have made it in? Guys that were known just about only for their D? Seems like specialists like these have only been around as the idea of an “offensive” specialist - before expansion, I think most of the “great” (HOF worthy) players were better rounded. Doesn’t bode well for Ben, Deke, and Rodman…
November 14th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
Gee says:
I have already stated my case but as far as the Mutumbo comparison it depends on what you are looking at. if you are looking at playing then that goes to Mutumbo. If you are looking at being an ambassador (which is going to play a big role in Mutumbo getting in trust me) Mutumbo has that too, if you looking at rings, unless Mutumbo got one somewhere that I didn’t hear about, Wallace has it. So Mutumbo wins most comparisons, especially depending on what you are going on.
As far as Dirk we already ran that war sometime ago and he is still goooing to be in.
LOL and to rehash and rehash again and rehash once more, aren’t we talking about projected path. I mean of course if you are talking about this moment then yea Ben is getting in and I feel a lot of other iffy players would get in too. Still it’s about the future for Ben and others. Where as some are still doing very well on their respective teams, Ben is horrid period.
For the record I don’t even like Ben Wallace lol, or Dirk, or Nash.
I wonder if the NBA will ever do a new top 50 or a top 100.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:43 pm
Stilts says:
No way. Dime you’re as consistent as Ben is a free throw shooter. If (by your reasoning) great scorers wont get in because they’re too one dimensional, then similarly Ben wont get in because he just plays D. Not to knock his defensive capabilities, but no one is talking about Rodman getting HOF consideration are they? His numbers are surely on par with Ben’s (except blocks), he got multiple rings and was even a key contributor offensively on occasion.
He had a great team around him in Detroit which clearly covered his deficiencies on one end of the court - something he doesn’t have in Chicago. Doesn’t look like a Hoffer to me.
OUT
November 14th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Bron42 says:
its questionable to redo it because some guys now have better stats than guys who are already “top 50/100″ so does that mean those guys get booted out or do we just keep adding people.
lol I don’t think skiles is HOF anything, I was just namin coaches off playoff contenders who are havin issues.
Rodman is in way easy before ben and mutumbo. He has the titles and the rings (with different teams)
I wasn’t really comparing dirk and ben. I’m just tired of people bitchin EVERY POST about how “if this guys in, how isn’t dirk” EVERY FRIGGEN POST. Cuz the guy hasn’t done anything plain and simple.
And alot of things are questionable, because some guys already in the hall of fame (bill walton) are in for only a couple good pro years. So wallace could get in on his pistons years.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
2 Easy says:
Gee I agree wit most of wat you said but im not sold on Big Ben. I like his intensity and heart cause i find it hard to dislike dudes wit heart but we cant judge him 4-5 good years and I kno this is projected but right now his projection is terrible seein as Tyrus Thomas is doin everythin Ben should be. Last week against the Pistons u woulda swore that Tyrus used to play there and not Ben. I have to say that Mutombo is a no question in my eyes. I kno many would say that Mutombo doesnt have the hardware like Ben but lets not forget that Mutombo anchored a Nuggets team that made history unseeded the DOMINANT sonics. So Deke has every aspect he needs covered, ambassador..check, memorable career..check(Finger wag will live on forever) consistent production.. almost won 2 diff awards lass year and this dude is old enough to be most of our dads.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
smity says:
Rodman and Dikembe should be shoe-ins for the hall (especially if Dikembe wins a ring as a contributor this year and if D. Stern doesnt have any influence in the decision making process). Isnt dikembe 2nd on the all-time blocks list? Rodman with 5 chips (a star on 3 of those), rebonding leader multiple years, a whole bunch of other stuff, including (my favorite) irritating the hell out of malone in the finals both years…but again, ben just needs to regain his form and be a beast again. Is he worrying too much about establishing an offensive presence? If he gobbles up all the boards (13 a game is a good number) and blocks all the shots (2.3 is a good number) he’ll be good and the chi will be too…with kobe…
November 14th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Bron42 says:
doesn’t rodman have a ring with the spurs too? back in the pink hair days, with mario ellis, sean elliot and the one and only vinnly delnegro. You can’t really guage ben on a “if his career continues” because he probably peaked in detroit. He spent years with the wiz and the magic and got to detroit around his prime. Now its pretty much down hill probably so we’d have to base it more on what hes done, not what hes going to do.
November 14th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
AY says:
Ben Wallace is not in, there’s no point in discussing this.
Now mutombo, now that’s interesting. He has had more impact as ben wallace on the defensive end, a better offensive player, more longevity, better career numbers, better average numbers, and just a better overall player. However i don’t think he was ever as good as mourning, and I don’t think mourning is getting in. So I’m going to say no to mutombo.
And the thing about defense is, you can’t guard five guys with one guy, but there is one ball on offense. Fundamentally, you’re not actively contributing on defense if the guy you’re guarding doesn’t get the ball, and you’re not going to stop the ball on weakside help or switch in every possession. But on offense, you can always contribute to victory by scoring or passing; it’s not that offense is overrated, I think individual defense is overrated. Team defense, now that’s something. The Piston’s team defense and team offense in the year they went all the way, that itself should get into the hall, and ben wallace was the most important person on that team… but he doesn’t get into the hall.
November 14th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Duke says:
How is Mutombo NOT in?
November 14th, 2007 at 4:04 pm
K-Dizzle says:
Rodman never got a chip with the Spurs cuz he was there when the Rockets were rollin, but 5’s good enough.
In comparing Ben Wallace with guys alrady in the hall, it’s what we already know, his defense stacks up, but the o is just pathetic. Guys like russell, thurmond, olajuwon, robinson, ewing were double double kings as well as defensive stoppers. Even “undersized” centers like Willis Reed and Wes Unseld have crazy numbers.
Whether Ben gets in or not is going to depend on what he does after taking 60M from chicago. If he just fades out right now, it’s gonna be close, but since the dude was the DPOY 4 TIMES, I’m voting yes
November 14th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
dagwaller says:
I think that when talking about the HOF watch, you’re going to have a few different types.
The obvious “can’t tell yet” cause they’re too young (Lebron, Wade, Carmelo).
The obvious “going to make it” (TD, Shaq).
The obvious “not going to make it” (Marbury).
Then there’s where all the real controversy comes in - the guys that are established as stars, or have been stars, and have a few more years to determine whether or not they’re going to end up as all-time greats (win a ring, get an individual award or two) or as just stars (no championship, no awards, but a few all-star appearances).
I think Ben falls squarely in the last category. I think that he’s gotten enough team and individual accolades to warrant calling him a star, but are those enough to put him into the HOF? Personally, I don’t think he has. I like him, I was rooting for him to beat the Lakers the year they won, and I’m a big Bulls fan, but I think that the window he needs to use to establish himself as more than simply a “defensive star” is closing too quickly to distinguish himself from other “defensive aces”.
Maybe Bruce Bowen is a better comparison? Been around a while, but only has been recognized as (just) defensively dominant for a few years, albeit on title-winning/contending teams? Would anyone here put Bowen in?
November 14th, 2007 at 5:35 pm
Russ says:
I gotta go with out on this one. He simply has done enough, for a long enough time.
And will people stop the all out LIES as far as using that same argument for nash and dirk. Dirk has been averaging over 20ppg for 8 YEARS now. And Nash has been been putting up ATLEAST 15 and 7 for I think atleast 7 years now. Not the 2-3 everybody seems to comment on. Just because you didn’t watch basketball before 2-3 years ago doesn’t mean people weren’t putting up numbers.
Before Detroit, not only did Ben not even start for the teams he played on…I doubt anyone knew he was even in the league. Be honest.
As far as comparing to deke…no contest. I say deke’s in. He’s got the good g-town career to start with. Great ambassador for the league in Africa. He’s got the same 4 DPOY awards Ben has. In addition to the following that Ben DOESN’T have.
-8 time all-star
-record for blocks in a 5 game series in which his team was the FIRST ever 8 seed to win a playoff series.
-2nd all time in blocks only behind kareem.(almost DOUBLING Ben’s career block total BTW)
-averaging a double double for his career even after the severe decline in minutes and numbers the past 4 years or so.
-averages double figures in scoring ever year he played atleast 30 minutes a game (11 YEARS) except for one. (averaged 9.1 that particular injury shortened season.)
deke was never a liability on the court like ben is at the end of close games. Like Dime said, he offensive game is just as bad (if not worse), than as good as his defensive game. Way too one dimensional of a player.
Zeke had a much more developed overall game. It’s like you goofs who say ray allen is only a 3 point shooter..Do you people even watch basketball or just read the headlines?????
November 14th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Gee says:
A yo! No no no I am not tryin to sell anyone on Ben lol. Right now I am not feeling the dude and again, I dont really care for him since the whole Detroit and Indiana thing (Just Gee).
I am just saying according to DIME it is about what they have done along with their projected future. I feel you Bron on he may have peeked and I stated from get go that if we just going off of now then I would say a disgruntle yes….
…naw naw naw I am sorry I just can’t lol. Ok this just hit me but dude don’t have no ambassador status. I don’t know was he a beast in college?? I don’t remember hearing anything outstanding about him. Sure he does have awards and that is really in his favor.
But I am thinking, and this is just Gee now, how many other players if they just decided to concentrate purely on D could get it?
Not to say that he isn’t talented and has great time on blocks and all. Just saying for instance, Kobe showed he could easy, very easily probably get DPOY just based on the Team USA showing. I mean if Kobe just said forget scoring man I am going to just lock the top scorer down or dude at my position down and hope someone else gets hot ( I know, just saying lol, or still do that and score. Anyway I think Kobe would have the award in a heartbeat. We don’t even have to go to Kobe, we could go to other players dropping 20, 10 and various stats and I really feel if they said I am going to forsake scoring and just reb and play D, or give assist and play D they would either win or at least be nominated for certain awards too.
See with Ben he didn’t have to score in the D! He had a crew! So “his” role was to do what he did. Granted he did it well, but it wasn’t like he was giving assist or scoring plus fufilling his roll. His roll is suppose to be the same in Chi. but it aint working out to well for him. Imma say it like this. If Ben was to gain his award on a team with few scorers and if he was doing something else outside of his “roll” then hey you got H.O.F. easy cause you set yourself apart in a big way. Yet all that aint so. He did set himself apart but come on, wasn’t Gary Paytons DPOY award or awards more impressive cause he was scoring as well. I’m just saying yall. Yea Ben is tight..well used to be..but if we break this down to being peculiar and rare, I just can’t give him that. Plus with the all these other intangibles that he doesn’t have… I got to say NO.
November 14th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
2 Easy says:
Damn Russ & Gee all I have to say is thank you. U guys said everything i was gonna say and saved me the time of typin it
November 14th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
Dave says:
OUT!!
I don’t even think this one is close. No way that Ben goes in mainly on the strength of four DPOY awards, impressive though that may be. In my view, though he certainly was the catalyst for the Pistons D, he was helped considerably by the presence of Sheed and Tayshaun, and just a solid overall defensive team.
As others have pointed out, comparisons to Mutombo are not vaild, as Deke has maintained a high level of play for so much longer. It would be seriously devaluing the HOF if someone like Ben were to get in.
November 14th, 2007 at 7:55 pm
Gee says:
LOL no prob. 2 Easy lol Glad to save you some time!
November 14th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
Bron42 says:
russ, when people say nash and dirk have only had 2-3 good years, it doesn’t mean they havn’t watched basketball, its means were not homers who hype up random people.
Both nash and dirk have had SUPERSTAR careers for like 2-3 years. Yes dirk averaged 20, on a bloated team where all he had to do was shoot, but he wasn’t a super star or carrying a team or the best player on his team or even a hall of famer and isn’t now. And don’t hype his one mvp like it saves him and means he was dominant his whole career.
Nash, yes he has had 15 and 7 for a while but again, not really HALL OF FAME, hell marburys numbers crush that. John stocktons numbers crush nash’s and even he wasn’t considered a huge superstar. ANYONE who watches basketball knows nash didn’t really blow up till the end of his time in dallas and now his few years with the suns. So thats all were saying. They weren’t bums their whole careers but lets not make it like they were abusing people for the last 10 years. They got hot recently and neither has won anything outside of mvp. So saying they compare to ben is normal since he had his good years, won a ring, etc…Was he a superstar BEFORE the pistons? no, and he was average in college which is why he went undrafted. But he still had his few years where he was above everyone else. Nash,ben, and dirk have all had small windows where they really seperated themselves (although I dont really think dirk has but thats another topic right gee lol) so lets not make it like they came out guns blazin from draft day.
So like the commercial says “how dare you question man fan-hood in front of everyone”
So my question to everyone. IF guys can get in the hall of fame just for being prolific scorers which would count as a specialist, how come guys who are prolific defenders are gonna get shut out (bowen,artest,ben). I mean i understand the whole “your not guarding the whole team theory” but thats pretty much sayin if you wanna shine, then just go for buckets and kinda cancels out the whole point. Same reason we have so many shoot first pgs now, cuz you don’t really get spotlight passing. Would you say bens defensive impact is as game changing as wades scoring impact?
November 14th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
Coldchain says:
Two of Big Ben’s Defensive POY awards were won before ‘Sheed got to Detroit. Tayshaun was still in college when Big Ben won his first DPOY, and wasn’t even a starter (rookie) when Wallace won his 2nd.
November 14th, 2007 at 9:10 pm
Gee says:
I feel since scoring is more difficult than guarding someone to a degree then yes a guy can get in for being a prolific scorer more than a defender. Don’t get me wrong I do feel if you a prolific defender you should get in also but I just feel you have to add something to it. Granted everyone is playing D on g.p. just because that is the game and to be prolific is extra in itself. My only thing is some prolific D players are because of certain things that made them that and they are not necessarily that on their own.
I wouldn’t say Ben’s defensive impact was as game changing as Wade’s scoring cause even the greatest D just usually slows someone down. Very rarely has anyone that was a prolific scorer been shut-out. Even when they were shut-out it’s not so much just because of the D that was played on them, as they might have had an off night.
Ok like this if the greatest D ever of two teams was ever played and the score was 0-0 well the person that scores ultimately has the greatest impact even if it’s 1 point.
….Sounds like I am high huh??? I promise I am not lol. Anyway ok Kobe and Mac bout to go at it and I am sure Kobe wan’t revenge. 1.
November 14th, 2007 at 9:17 pm
Gee says:
Coldchain what is wrong with Ben now then?
November 14th, 2007 at 10:20 pm
Bron42 says:
simple, his athletic ability is slipping and hes bein asked to do ALOT.
and gee, doesn’t the old saying go a good defense beats a good offense?
offense wins games but defense wins championships? ask the suns and the spurs.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:03 pm
Ferdiberdi says:
I think Ben Wallace is barely IN. I respect the 4 DPOYs - - but the HOFs filled with players who play both ends on the floor so there lies the point of consideration. Ideally, Big Ben should do more for the game of basketball, like being an ambassador Dikembe-style. I think that also earns you points for HOF.
Deke is definitely IN. Best trash-talking move of all time. LOL
November 14th, 2007 at 11:54 pm
bron42 says:
whats funny is, deke is the best trash talker (right ahead of GP) and his english is terrible yet the finger wave is sign language at its best.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:55 pm
Russ says:
Bron,
I’d have to disagree with your opening statement. People hype random folks on here all the time…like Ty Thomas…… among many others.
My point was more that Dirk and Nash have been playing at a higher level over a more consistent period of time for longer than 3 years. I didn’t say they were ALL MVP or HOF worthy seasons, nor did I ever mention Dirks MVP. More simply, that people actually knew they were in the league and putting up respectable or above average numbers, unlike ben before he got to detriot. Those numbers I listed were MINIMUMS, as in most of those seasons the number were actually higher…especially as nash’s case….the 15 and 7 was actually the lowest of all the years I mentioned. SO comparing them to ben is not ‘normal’ , but delirious.
Not only was he not a superstar before detriot, he still isn’t now, nor was he ever that I could tell. Does having kicks at steve and barry’s make you a superstar or something? Like I said, he is supposed to be so great at defense, but mutumbo has almost TWICE as many blocks. Not to mention better rebounding and scoring numbers as well. Hell I’d still ratehr take mutumbo RIGHT NOW over ben…and mutumbo is like 64.
But I would say that anyone who is even in voting for MVP, let alone winning(multiple times in nash’s case) are just a tad more than ‘random people’ as you say.
You can make up all the excuses you want, but 20ppg for 8 years is 20ppg for 8 years. If anything, doing it while someone else on the team also averages over 20ppg, and another 15ppg, is all that more impressive. Not to mention howard also averaged double figures.
I guess jamison and butler are looked upon unfavorably by you as well since they average approximately 20ppg on a ‘bloated’ team….whatever that means. All I know is they were in the playoffs while he was doing it. I’d say it’s more impressive to put up numbers on a winning team than a losing team.
As I mentioned before, nash has played the fewest games of anyone in the top 30 all time assist leaders except for one person. One of the other pluses on dirk and nash’s side is that they are showing no signs of slowing down anytime soon and therefore it is reasonable to expect a few more stellar years out of both. If nash continues anywhere close to his career averages(not even the last 2-3 years everbody speaks of)pace, he will be top 5 all time in assists when he is done if he plays anywhere near as many games as stockton. If he stays at the pace he has lately, he will most likely be top 3 then.
Stockton isn’t/wasn’t considered a star? Or do you mean you have to have sprite and nike commercials in order to get into the HOF or be a star? Or do you have to be a star to get into the HOF??? He’s only the nba all time assists leader, top 50 player all time, and a member of the original dream team, I guess he’s one of those ‘random people’ you speak of as well?!?!?!
Maybe he didn’t have endorsements and be on tv all the time playing in a small market like utah, but there is no doubting his talent.
And why is that headcase marbury even in this conversation..he gets the numbers he gets because the teams he is on always suck and he is free to run and gun. Ever notice every team he goes to goes downhill, while nash led teams have been in the playoffs every year??? While playing in the superior conference?? You picked a bad time to bring up marbury’s name. Atleast they can take his name off the milk carton now.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:06 am
K.i.n.G. says:
if alex english got in just by scoring lights out, then big ben should be IN (not that i really care that ben gets in). and to anyone who says deke SHOULD NOT BE IN THE H.O.F. OF BASKETBALL, y’all should just watch a different sport entirely
November 15th, 2007 at 12:07 am
dagwaller says:
Anything else?
November 15th, 2007 at 2:10 am
Coldchain says:
Gee — Remember when Wallace hurt his ankle the last preseason game? That probably has something to do with how he’s playing now. Or he’s just getting old. Centers break down fast. You remember Hakeem playing for the Raptors and Ewing on the Sonics, right? The reason Mutombo can fight off such decline while Ben Wallace might not be able to is because Mutombo is 7-2. Ben needs to jump to block shots; Deke doesn’t. And don’t act like Deke is still a starter and a force in the League. He plays like 10 minutes a night.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:52 am
AY says:
my hof test always comes down to this: take away the guy that should never have made the hof, bill walton, what player of the same position in the hall of fame can this guy legitimately replace? You take ben wallace, can you find a center in the hall of fame other than bill walton that he’s better than? What about Dikembe Mutombo? If you say maurice stokes, you should torch yourself.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:20 am
Gee says:
Bron if I am correct the suns and spurs still had to score points. Tony Parker got finals mvp because of D?? Hmmm lets see Dirk, Nash, and other countless MVP’s got the award because of D? Nope. Do that have Defensive contest at the All-Star game lol? How many kids draw pictures of themselves guarding someone, or blocking a shot…hardly any?
Don’t get me wrong I value Defense and it is important. It’s just that in the NBA apparently scoring impact weighs more than D does. With the fans it seems to be more important and even kids.
Coldchain sounds like you cats are trying to make excuses for dude. Players that get hurt and still do what they do, hmmm A.I. (countless injury), V.C. (gets hurt every other game) Tracy McGrady (still gives you buckets).
I am not saying an injury won’t alter your play some, that is understood …Webber, Kenyon and others. Still, and I guess this is where this debate lies, he went from DPOY to very horrid. I’m saying it’s not even a slow change or drop. This is dramatic. Also if dude is being asked to do a lot (I don’t know what all that holds), but he is being “payed” to do a lot, and that is my point apparently he “can’t” do a lot with other systems.
I’m sorry unless he can get back to at least being close to what he was, I can’t say yes. And if it is indeed due to injury, that is the nature of the beast, it’s messed up, but injuries happen. If it’s his injury keeping him from being what he once was (I don’t feel it is) then it’s his injury that will keep him out the Hall unless he starts playing close to what he was!
November 15th, 2007 at 9:27 am
Bron42 says:
russ, even though I kno your not, I’m gonna assume your new here based on your ill informed comments.
1. bloated team: a stacked team, a team where he doesn’t have much pressure on him because of the supporting cast. Just as much as marbury had free reign to get his stats cuz his team sucked, dirk had free reign to shoot because he had guys who can pick up his slack and it hardly ever all fell on him. Even to this day.
2. I’m the first person to say marbury sucks and is overrated. if you actually go to his HOF convo, I think i might actually have been the first person to point out all his teams flop. Point remains, his stats are better than nash’s overall and he got laughed at when they said HOF.
3. I agree on ty thomas. But what i meant when i said random people was a) dirk is a 7′0 kyle korver, a specialist, a tall shooter, thats about it. But I can promise you that everytime dime says HOF there will be a “oh if this guy is in, how come dirk isnt” comment meanwhile dirk hasn’t done much at all. Like you said, jamison has about a 20 ppg average but hes not considered hall of fame..why? cuz hes not a shooter that dirk is? please. 90% of the league could average 20 ppg. Jason terry averaged it for a while. Its not really a big sepeartor and dirk wasn’t a stud until recently, and even now he doesn’t carry the brunt of the team.
4. When i mentioned john stockton. His numbers eclise nash’s easily (me and you kno he was a superstar) but he was never given half the glory nash is when he was better and actually took his team to the finals. yet people hype nash like hes this and that when again..all he can pretty much do is pass to guys who are already good and established but never get them over the hump.
I think for the most part we kinda agree about ben wallace.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:43 am
chrisGO says:
OUT.
…but hey, im biased. this loser ruined my Bulls.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
teflon says:
OUT! no way ben slides in. One facet players shouldn’t make the HOF.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
Coldchain says:
Gee - This season’s like two weeks old. Too early to say Ben is done. And yes, an ankle injury can effect somebody for two weeks or more. Go ask Emeka Okafor about that. Ben wasn’t bad last year, so I’m just saying all this “He’s done” talk is WAY premature.
November 16th, 2007 at 10:28 am
Ian says:
comparing mutombo to the overrated ben wallace is a joke. big ben is nowhere near the hall of fame. btw to the guy that posted that he was the best player on the pistons team what r u smoking billups is the best by far and big ben isnt the 2nd either. wallace wasnt the best defensive player all those seasons duncan was but as always he was overlooked. hell tyson chandler is better than wallace. someone else posted here that the mvp and DPY are the same LOL.
November 17th, 2007 at 6:33 pm
Big10 says:
@ #13 & #16: FYI, Horry got two rings as a STARTER on both of the Rockets’ championship squads.
On the topic of Big Ben, I want to see him do SOMETHING with Bulls before I say he’s in the Hall. I love great defensive players (and maybe Ben deserves extra credit for his size at his position, like Calvin Murphy), but overall his low scoring, bad free throws, and only one ring put him on the bubble. If Ben could become a first-or-second team all-defensive player a couple more times, I’d put him in. His HUGE dropoff with the Bulls is what’s making people like me doubt him.
November 18th, 2007 at 3:03 am
Ian says:
ist not a drop off this is really him
the others guys in detroit covered his weak game in chicago they dont do that
November 27th, 2007 at 7:48 pm
Nick says:
lol in,, how can wallence be in and someone like rodman who in my opinion was twice the player never got in.. not only was rodaman a better rebounder(pulled down about 18 rebounds a night in his prime ), but he was also a better defensive player as he was able to guard 4 positions,, also a forgot to mention the 5 rings and the fact that he was also undersized… WALLANCE=OVERRATED,, his killin it in chicago (HOF STATS)lmao
December 16th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
tay says:
Mutumbo and Big Ben will make it in. Mutumbo 4-time DPOTY 2nd all time in blocks. Big Ben IS THE FIRST PLAYER IN NBA HISTORY TO grab 1,000 rebs. 100 blocks, & 100 steals in 4 straight seasons. Plus 4-time DPOTY and has a ring.
IN
July 6th, 2008 at 8:32 am
mate says:
4 dpoy 1 ring 4 straight seasons with 1000 rebs 100 blc 100 steals do you need more?he is IN