H.O.F. Watch – Grant Hill
Every day for the next few weeks we’re gonna take one active NBA star with at least arguable Hall of Fame credentials and break down his chances of getting into the Springfield, Mass., hoops mecca. We’re looking at not just past accomplishments, but also how a player’s career realistically projects for the future. For a full explanation of the process, click here. Today’s candidate: Grant Hill.
GRANT HILL (13th year, Suns/Magic/Pistons)
20.0 points, 6.9 rebounds, 5.3 assists, 1.4 steals per game
Why: For the first six years of his pro career and dating back to his college days, Grant Hill was a shoo-in future Hall of Famer. Coming off a college career that has to be considered one of the best of his era, where he won two national championships at Duke and left his name all over the ACC record books, Hill was a superstar from Day One in the NBA. He took co-Rookie of the Year with Jason Kidd in ‘95, and in Year 2 averaged 20.2 points, 9.8 rebounds and 6.9 assists per game for a Pistons playoff team. He continued to put up amazing numbers on decent teams for the next four years, culminating in ‘99-00, when he dropped 25-6-5 in his final year with Detroit. Then, before signing with Orlando in 2000, a series of foot and ankle problems began, and Grant was never the same player again. His best season with Orlando came in ‘04-05, when he put up 19.7 points per in 67 games. Hill has been named to seven All-Star teams was a fixture on the All-NBA first or second team during his Pistons run, and won an Olympic gold medal with Team USA in 1996.
Why not: Hill was on his way to becoming maybe the next Jordan — or at least the next Pippen — before he got hurt. After the injuries started, he missed 374 out of a possible 574 games going into this season. He took Detroit to the playoffs four times and made it once with Orlando, but has never gone past the first round.
Our call: IN
The H.O.F. Watch archive
10/31 – Dirk Nowitzki
10/30 – Tony Parker
10/29 – Elton Brand
10/26 – Carmelo Anthony
10/25 – Vince Carter
10/24 – Penny Hardaway
10/23 – Alonzo Mourning
10/22 – Allen Iverson
10/19 – Dwyane Wade
10/18 – Chauncey Billups
10/17 – Stephon Marbury
10/16 – Jason Kidd
10/15 – Shawn Marion
10/12 – Ray Allen
10/11 – Chris Bosh
10/10 – Chris Webber
10/9 – Paul Pierce
10/5 – Jermaine O’Neal
10/4 – Gary Payton
10/3 – Tracy McGrady
November 1st, 2007 at 1:53 pm
Bron42 says:
nice guy but nahhh…just like penny, injuries killed him. Just think if he was 100% when tmac first went to orlando. Or think that before grant signed, it was almost tmac and tim duncan in orlando but duncan resigned with the spurs…
November 1st, 2007 at 1:53 pm
Gee says:
Dang dime I am super torn on this one. I am gone say in. I think his college career is what is going to get him over.
November 1st, 2007 at 1:58 pm
Craig2k8 says:
In, especially if he helps Phoenix to win a championship.(which i hope not) Spurs/Rockets/Mavs..Go texas!
November 1st, 2007 at 2:03 pm
Gee says:
Let me add to that, previous statement. I think his college career, image as far as being a good dude, community service and how he balled before the injury and how well he has come back currently will get him in. I will say if he plays a significant roll in how Phoenix does as Craig said he will be in. He can’t afford to get hurt again though, I think that will really take away from him being in. I don’t think he will be a 1st timer or 1st ballot but I think on down the road he will be in.
November 1st, 2007 at 2:03 pm
kyung2 says:
you cheer for all three of those teams? Detroit/Dallas/Denver…Go D’s!???
November 1st, 2007 at 2:05 pm
naphi says:
I’d have to go with in. His college and early playing puts him with the elite. Although injuries hounded him, he has been relentless. After 5 ankle/foot surgeries you would think a guy that has enough money would just retire. It just shows the love for the game and extreme dedication. Even after all those surgeries he still puts up decent numbers.
November 1st, 2007 at 2:08 pm
fiyaman says:
Grant Hill??? IN?? wow !! what did he do to even be nominated for HOF what win a ring i college? congrats
November 1st, 2007 at 2:11 pm
smity says:
I think that despite his injuriess, he should be in. like you all already mentioned, he was nasty in college and he was killin in the league. I think he should also be given consideration for How he got hurt. He was giving his all, in the playoffs on a bad ankle that people had advised him not to play on. He was going out like a warrior and thats how you’re supposed to do it. His love for the game and dedication to his team and to the game made him play despite his injury (and he wasnt hurting the team by playing injured either). As a fan, teamate, coach or whatever, thats what you ask for and thats what you should committ to doing if placed in the same position. You love the game so you give the game your all. And now he’s come back and has still had an impact on the game and his teamates (think of his impact on young dwight and other young players on the magic). He’s a guy many don’t mind rootin for. may not get that championship though, but at least he got that tamia. fyi- grant hill is the anti-rick fox.
November 1st, 2007 at 2:31 pm
MiCkeY MoNDaY says:
I personally like Grant Hill, but honestly i wouldnt really be mad if it went any way. He was one of the best players in the league in his prime but after getting injured in the playoffs that year, he just didnt have it anymore. If he makes it i would be cool with that but if he doesnt i’ll understand.
November 1st, 2007 at 2:34 pm
Gregg says:
Totally agree with you Smity.
Grant Hill is IN. He was an awesome college player. Phenomenal talent before his severe injury just check out his stats. He was LeBron before the there was a LeBron. And yes that was 6 solid years. He won rookie of the year with J.Kidd and has an Olympic gold medal. He gives it his all. He really didn’t have to play in that playoff series with Detroit on the bum ankle. He was in a contract year. I only wish we could have seen him in his full prime with out the injuries. The combo of him and T-Mac in Orlando would have been devastating.
He’s still a solid player and has the smarts to be on any team with any system. He’s definitely IN.
November 1st, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Lou Spliff says:
Close but he’s not in. In my opinion Grant Hill is a very good player who had a few great years but that’s not enough to get him in to the HOF. A player should have at least a decade with the numbers he had for his first four years to get in. Two things keep him out: 1. Only 200 games played in the last seven years. That is an average of 28 games a season since 2000. Weak. 2. He has never been past the first round in the playoffs.
November 1st, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Lou Spliff says:
Hey DIME, when is the Gerald Wallace HOF debate? He had a a couple good years. And on a less sarcastic note, is college career factored into HOF?
November 1st, 2007 at 3:41 pm
marcus says:
If it wasnt for the injuries he would of been a sure 1st ballot HOF’er. Because he spent such a large part of his career injured and never even been to the finals (Has he even been to the conference finals?) Im going to have to say OUT. Im really questioning the reasoning on this based off the some of the previous articles. Amazing guy..but he will end up being known for all the games he didnt play in more then the games he did.
November 1st, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Gee says:
Ok this is not about his status in H.O.F. but does anyone remember
“The Dunk” he caught in college. Wooooooo my momma was so lucky she wasn’t around. I would have had to slap the fiya out of her cause that dunk was so nasty! I am sure they probably got it in youtube.
Anyway, yes college career does factor in, that is why people are typing about his college career on here. On a less sarcastic note though…..Grant will be in.
November 1st, 2007 at 3:52 pm
Bron42 says:
question for most of youthen. if you have an amazing college career ala jayson williams, and then suck when your a pro, does your college career alone get you in? cuz then wouldn’t penny and a few other guys be in too?
November 1st, 2007 at 3:58 pm
smity says:
i think that your amazing college career would have to be the equivalent of Maravich’s or somebody who was the go to guy and leader on a team that won all 4 years the NCAA chip (and in addition he’d have to have poy honors and all that too probably)
November 1st, 2007 at 4:00 pm
smity says:
so on that same note, penny still probably wouldnt garner heavy consideration based on his college career…
November 1st, 2007 at 4:05 pm
Gee says:
LOL Bron42 if they “suck” as a pro well then I guess their college career wouldn’t matter. You think Grant sucks though? Dang. LOL
I factor in stuff like citizenship, community service, awards, stats, marketability, impact at their position and on the game and things of that nature. I feel like Penny didn’t have enough of that where as I think Grant just makes it over the hump. Like I said though, I am torn.
November 1st, 2007 at 4:33 pm
wat_helmet says:
u gotta factor in, that grant played in a pretty golden era of basketball too…
jordan, pippen, barkley, stockton, malone, kemp, payton, atheletic shaq, mourning in his prime, david robinson…
you talk about players like vince carter, and tmac, they grew up in a league with steve francis and stephon marbury…
i liked penny too, he shared a similar fate as grant hill… im pretty sure the person who is most devastated by grant’s injuries is himself… he could be at home with his family (his daughter suffers from MS), but he chooses to be out on the court
November 1st, 2007 at 4:47 pm
Bron42 says:
ur not gonna find many guys who were more marketable than penny. And i wasn’t saying grant sucks, I was talkin more in general. Guys like jay williams, trajon langdon, christian laetner etc..Penny killed the league on the magic his first couple years just like grant killed when he was a piston before gettin hurt. So maybe suck was a bad way of saying it. So here, if they have a great college career but dont live up to it in the NBA, say kevin durant turns out to be a total bust or sabonis before he came to the NBA, should gets be able to get in on college careers or international careers alone.
Plus tons of nba guys are good citizens and do community service. Zo even has his own scholarship fund (which my cousin out in VA actually won) so I think its kinda tough to add in if a guy is nice to people or a good charater guy. Cuz that cancels out dennis rodman and his 5 rings from hall of fame but gets grant and his 5 good years in. Just my opinion
November 1st, 2007 at 5:04 pm
An says:
Grant Hill is the Ken Griffey Jr. of basketball. They will both be in the Hall of fame.
November 1st, 2007 at 5:19 pm
Chaos says:
man i gotta say grant was a better all around player than penny if you wanna talk about him having injuries. also he was more productive when he did play. he was a major reason that orlando made playoffs last year. what has penny done lately? nothin, even when he was healthy. grant put up numbers, just couldnt play a full season.
November 1st, 2007 at 6:00 pm
jay says:
i am going to have to say no but it was very tough..had a little longer stint than penny but injury bug killed it..college hall..shoe in!!! no questions asked. i still remember that one handed tomahawk against the rock jock jayhawk in the 91 when he was rockin the freshprince fade from year one of the series.you all know where i am goin with this!
November 1st, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Lou Spliff says:
If anybody has a chance they should check out the Hall Of Fame website and actually see who is a hall of famer. You can see what type of players are already in and can get a feel for what the hall is looking for. You would see that the guys in are mostly legends in their resprective fields. No more than a handful of players from the DIME HOF Watch list are legends (right now) and that’s being conservative.
November 1st, 2007 at 6:38 pm
dave says:
you people are have lost your minds..this whole list is absurd..
ha and ray allen and vince too?
blah
November 1st, 2007 at 6:52 pm
Craig says:
You guys are crazy, Hill had 100 times the collegiate career then t-mac, kobe, garnett, and lebron, and you dont think that is saying something?
November 1st, 2007 at 7:29 pm
Aaron says:
I’m sorry, but dime is on crack! I can live with Grant Hill in the HOF, but Hill over Dirk? If I recall correctly, Grant Hill has never been beyond the 1st round of the playoffs…messed up
November 1st, 2007 at 7:51 pm
doc says:
grant killed for 6 years but fell off so no
November 1st, 2007 at 8:14 pm
duaneo says:
craig says “You guys are crazy, Hill had 100 times the collegiate career then t-mac, kobe, garnett, and lebron, and you dont think that is saying something?”
I think that would be because T-Mac, Kobe, Garnett, and Lebron didn’t go to college.
November 1st, 2007 at 8:26 pm
bron42 says:
did craig really say that? i’ma hope he was bein sarcastic cuz that could ruin his basketball cred for the rest of his life.
Aaron one thing your seeming to realize, alot of people hate on guys like dirk or nash, not cuz they suck or something, but their on stacked teams and still don’t really carry them. Grant wasn’t playing with many other all stars during his time. Tmac didn’t play with any till yao. etc…these guys carried teams by themselves which is alot tougher to do than being the self proclaimed top guy on a already stacked team. If i’m the only super star on my team, but your team has 5 allstars and we both fizzle out at the same point, it looks worse for your team. Thats why grant would get the nod over dirk and vince. Mavs and suns could be considered equal to the spurs talent wise (the suns possibly more so) and neither one of their “leaders” put them over the top, meanwhile the spurs keep winning.
So its alot more impressive to see Tmac, will his team to the playoffs and put up a fighting chance by himself, than to see a already good team bomb out.
November 1st, 2007 at 8:27 pm
AY says:
grant hill is better than joe dumars; if grant can limp his way on any team that wins a championship, regardless of what role he plays, he’s in. I still remember his 3rd year when he dominated, and gerald wallace will never do this:
21 ppg, 9rpg, 7.3apg, 2stls, 50%fg, 72%ft
He’s not a fringe case like bill walton who got in for his blazers championship: grant is legit.
November 1st, 2007 at 8:30 pm
AY says:
This is the highlight of the thread
duaneo says:
craig says “You guys are crazy, Hill had 100 times the collegiate career then t-mac, kobe, garnett, and lebron, and you dont think that is saying something?”
I think that would be because T-Mac, Kobe, Garnett, and Lebron didn’t go to college.
November 1st, 2007 at 8:52 pm
bron42 says:
also chaos asks what has penny done lately…um, he hasnt been playing. grant meanwhile rode the bench the last 4-5 years playin like 2 games a season so I’d say dwight howard was more the reason that they went to the playoffs. Its not like grant was puttin up 20 a game last year.
November 1st, 2007 at 8:54 pm
bron42 says:
Ay, actually gerald wallace could do that eventually, the guy is already in the record books for bein 1 of 3 guys in nba history to avearge 2 blocks and 2 steals for a season
November 2nd, 2007 at 4:09 am
Lucky Lester says:
Wallace is a stud… I hope he keeps his shit up for 5-10 more years, he’s really a solid all around player…
The fact that Grant Hill has fought through all his shit and is still playing basketball is hall of fame worth in and of itself. You mix that with the fact that he did kill the league his first 5 or 6 years, and the fact that he was a GREAT college player, too – he has to be in.
But if Hill gets in, I think Vince Carter will probably get in too. Don’t know what relevance that has, but I thought I’d throw that out there.
November 2nd, 2007 at 4:49 am
wat_helmet says:
i think craig’s point was the fact that he does have a collegiate career to back up his nba one… he was a proven winner on the college scale, went to the nba and dominated for the first 6 years too
“In 1999, Grant Hill joined Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor as the only players in NBA history to lead their teams in scoring, rebounding and assists more than once. Hill and Chamberlain are the only two players in league history to lead their teams in points, rebounds and assists per game three times.”
“After the first six seasons of his career, before his ankle injury, Hill had a total of 9,393 points, 3,417 rebounds and 2,720 assists. Oscar Robertson and Larry Bird are the only two players in league history to eclipse these numbers after their first six seasons.”
November 2nd, 2007 at 5:34 am
Ronan says:
Dirks refusal continues to make a mockery of this entire series. It really does.
November 2nd, 2007 at 8:02 am
the_don_mega says:
ei… we’re talkin’ ’bout the Basketball HOF here… not the NBA HOF… a great college career plus a decent to great pro career and of course… mad skills would definitely get you in…grant has all of these… i say IN… CASE CLOSED…
November 2nd, 2007 at 8:54 am
Gee says:
I think you have to add in community service (and I am talking outside community service not just what the NBA ask or makes players do lol) and if a guy has had a nice track record “along” with other things like rings and numbers and college career and over-seas career (if they have one) how they came back from injury, awards and other things.
I am basically saying I think a whole lot should go into a player’s case for the H.O.F. and some things will help out more than others with different players.
So I do think Dennis “would” get in cause you can’t deny so much he did in actual games and during his career. Now outside the game I feel that may hurt how fast he gets in, but i do think he will make it. That is all I am saying.
November 2nd, 2007 at 8:57 am
fiyaman says:
does Antonio Mcdysee(sp?) get in.. He was a beast his 1st couple yrs till injury but at least he came back to a decent career. If Hill is in so is Mcd.. I say both are out..
November 2nd, 2007 at 9:51 am
BigDawg says:
Sorry, I’m gonna say no on this one (albeit on the fence)… if you look at his co-Rookie of the Year counterpart (Jason Kidd, who is a lock) and compare side by side, there really is no comparison. That said, I’d say the biggest argument against him is longevity. While he had good numbers his first 6 years, they were just that: good, not great. Again, I’m on the fence, so I’ll look to this as a comparitive justification:
Do you think Shawn Kemp deserves HOF status? If the answer is yes, then I’d say Hill is in. If no, then I think he should not be either.
Justification: Kemp at one point, was considered the premier power forward and even led his team to a final (and believe me I know GP played a part in that as well). But his career fizzled out after about 6 good years as well.
For as good as Grant was, he never “led” his team to stardom (NBA or College), but was a support (if you’re talking college, I agree he was key to beating UNLV, but many will argue Bobby Hurley and Christian Laetner were more of an impact – not my argument, but others
)
P.S. While I agree that Hill is a great guy and does great things in the community, I don’t think that plays into HOF recognition. They have many community service accolades for that.
November 2nd, 2007 at 9:51 am
JMac(almost as good as T) says:
Grant Hill is a great player hands down. Injuries kill careers. He went out trying to work through it, heroic, but stupid. He is still a great player, but I think the game has already passed him by. He can still give a decent 14 points a game or so, but he won’t run the table anymore. HOF is a maybe on this guy. Give him his last few years to decide (as in whether or not he wins a championship… maybe two?)
November 2nd, 2007 at 9:54 am
BigDawg says:
to flyaman’s point… Antonio McDysse isn’t even close… he had 3 good years before his knee blew out, then no one even recognized him until recently with Detroit (as a premier 8th man).
November 2nd, 2007 at 10:50 am
kdjs says:
not to take anything away from hill. i still remember his crossover. one of the sickest i’ve seen…
but
how can you be a HOFer if you havent played?
November 2nd, 2007 at 11:05 am
Coldchain says:
Since you can consider college for the HOF, Grant had 10 good years; 4 at Duke, 6 in the pros. And he made one All-Star Game after the injuries, so it’s not like he completely fell off. Connie Hawkins is in the Hall of Fame and he only played 7 years in the League. Gale Sayers is in the Football hall of fame and he only played 5 years.
November 2nd, 2007 at 11:34 am
nope says:
NICE GUY BUT NEVER. YOU HAVE TO BE SPECIAL, NOT JUST A LITTLE ABOVE AVERGE TO BE A HOF ER
November 2nd, 2007 at 11:55 am
Coldchain says:
Grant Hill’s above average? You’re trippin, man. He was one of the 2-3 best players in the League in his prime.
November 2nd, 2007 at 11:59 am
nikko says:
No way. Great stats for the first 6 years, but better than say-Chris Webber? No way, and he didn’t even get his teams to deep playoff runs. If he stayed healthy probably, but 6 years? Nah
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:10 pm
Dan says:
I’d say out, but Bill Walton is really a fair comparison. Dominated in college and early pro career, then got really injured for a long time, but hung around anyways. If Walton’s in, then I think Hill has a fair argument (although Walton led the Blazers to a title and got another ring with the Celts later). On the other hand, I still think there are better players, less celebrated perhaps, who aren’t in the hof (i.e. Sidney Moncrief).
November 2nd, 2007 at 2:16 pm
Drew says:
Hes in and Dirk is out?!?!?!?!?!
November 2nd, 2007 at 4:47 pm
Sacto J says:
Hill is not a player I would build a franchise around, though he would be in my top 2 picks after my franchise player. The guy is solid, but I agree the production has not been there, all excuses aside. If he contributes heavily this year and the suns win a chip, he plays another year or two and continues to contribute, then without a doubt….
November 2nd, 2007 at 7:40 pm
dagwaller says:
I like Hill, but I really think that his injuries are going to keep him out. There are a lot of players throughout the modern (i.e., Hall of Fame) era of sport that have been brilliant for the first few years of their career, only to be cut down by injuries. These players are fun to talk about, but unless their amateur careers were out of this world (Walton), they’re just fun to speculate upon (like this article). Hill is closer to Penny and, outside of his sport, Bo Jackson, than he is to Ken Griffey or Walton.
First, consider that Bill Walton won two chips, one of which in a starring role. Grant Hill was great in college, but Walton is considered one of the best ever. Furthermore, Walton was the NBA MVP and a Finals MVP – do your homework before you start comparing the two players.
Also, Griffey played a lot longer before he got injured, making possible the huge CAREER numbers he’s made.
In other words, before Walton and Griffey got injured, they made a huge mark on their sport. Their numbers and careers were already well established before they got hurt. Penny, Bo and Grant were all great BEFORE they got injured, but what they could have been is just speculation.
BTW, Bron, Dirk out, but Grant in…hm. Hm. On the strength of Grant’s first few years? Plus college? Let’s put Grant’s college and Dirk’s international careers aside. Unless you’re gonna stick by your, “One star suffering alongside weak teammates is more impressive than a star among stars,” argument. In which case Dirk would win in their pre-NBA careers, because Grant went to one of the best bball colleges around, being surrounded by future NBAers, while Dirk was teamed with…well, if you can name another German NBAer playing at the same time as Dirk, I’ll be impressed.
Meanwhile, their NBA careers aren’t even close. Grant has been to how many Finals? How many conference finals? Has won how many league MVPs?
Numbers for the first 4 years of their career:
GH: 21 pts, 8 rb, 6.5 as, .7 bl, 1.6 st 4 playoff years
DN: 18.7 pts, 7.7 rb, 2 as, 1 bl, .9 st 2 playoff years
Comparable. The last 4 years?
GH: 16.4 pts, 4.6 rb, 2.9 as, .4 bl, 1.15 st 1 playoff
DN: 24.77 pts, 9.1 rb, 3 as, 1.2 bl, 1 st 4 playoffs
That’s not even counting the SEASON Hill missed due to injury. Some (Bron) would say that missing so much time to injury would MAKE YOU SOFT, and apparently, that hurts your HOF candidacy.
In the playoffs, Dirk’s worst playoff series (last year) was still only a few ppg worse than Grant’s best. Dirk choking still important to you, Bron? Later
November 2nd, 2007 at 8:23 pm
dagwaller says:
Main gist of that post pointed at Dime, not Bron
November 3rd, 2007 at 4:09 am
Ian says:
when was kemp considered the best pf in the league????????? i missed that season
didnt that thing go from malone to duncan and is still there
and the griffey is the grant hill of baseball please dont be stupid griffey has HOF numbers and some hrs to spare
hill needs a ring
November 3rd, 2007 at 6:29 pm
dagwaller says:
Ian, I don’t understand – you’re saying that griffey’s the grant hill of baseball when Grant doesn’t have anything close to the HOF resume in terms of pre-injury numbers that Griffey does? Don’t be stupid.
November 4th, 2007 at 3:12 am
Ian says:
dagwaller u idiot
someone said that im a post im just saying what u posted
again so u can read
SOMEONE ELSE SAID THAT
my point was that jr has the numbers hill does not
November 4th, 2007 at 3:18 am
Ian says:
btw
dag u made a good point about the bron “One star suffering alongside weak teammates is more impressive than a star among stars,” which to me is the other way around is more impressive to be good among stars than alone.
November 8th, 2007 at 2:42 am
hb says:
Lou Spliff says: “And on a less sarcastic note, is college career factored into HOF?”
Bron42 says:”question for most of youthen. if you have an amazing college career ala jayson williams, and then suck when your a pro, does your college career alone get you in? cuz then wouldn’t penny and a few other guys be in too? ”
Do you guys ever heard a guy name Bob Houbergs? five less-than-stellar NBA seasons. avaraged less than 10 ppg, never be an All-Star, never selected to All NBA Team. And he’s an HOF (inducted as player on 1992).
Meanwhile, we got Max Zaslofky (4 straight All BAA/NBA FIRST Team), Larry Foust (8 time all-Stars), Dennis Johnson (3 NBA Championships + 1980 Finals MVP), Adrian Dantley, Bernard King, Spencer Haywood, and Artis Gilmore still OUT of Hall Of Fame.
Even try to think why?