H.O.F. Watch - Manu Ginobili
Every day we’re taking one active NBA star with at least arguable Hall of Fame credentials and breaking down his chances of getting into the Springfield, Mass., hoops mecca. We’re looking at not just past accomplishments, but also how a player’s career realistically projects for the future. For a full explanation of the process, click here. Today’s candidate: Manu Ginobili.
MANU GINOBILI (6th year, Spurs)
13.9 points, 3.9 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 1.6 steals per game
Why: Depending on who you ask, Ginobili is either the second- or third-best member of San Antonio’s current Big Three, helping the Spurs to three NBA championships in the last five years. And during that run, a lot of people thought Manu was more deserving of the ‘05 Finals MVP than Tim Duncan. His postseason numbers (15.6 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 3.5 apg, 1.5 spg) trump his regular-season stats, and he’s arguably San Antonio’s best clutch performer. Looking ahead, as long as Duncan is playing at a high level, an improving Ginobili and Tony Parker could win at least one or two more championships. Then there is Manu’s international resume. Before coming to the Spurs he won two MVP awards in Italy’s highest league, a Euroleague MVP and a Euroleague championship. In 2004 he led Argentina to an Olympic gold medal, taking MVP honors for the tournament. And as the game continues to grow and the NBA puts more emphasis on its international influence, a Hall of Fame candidate’s international accomplishments will therefore be taken more seriously by voters.
Why not: As decorated as Manu’s international career has been, his NBA run hasn’t garnered many individual accolades – just one All-Star appearance and an All-Rookie second team nod. Given that, where does he fit amongst the NBA’s elite scoring guards during his tenure? You could argue that Kobe, Iverson, T-Mac, Vince, D-Wade, Pierce, Arenas, Ray Allen, Michael Redd, Rip Hamilton, Joe Johnson and even a past-his-prime Reggie Miller have all been better. While Ginobili has been an invaluable part of the Spurs’ dynasty, was he more important to San Antonio than, say, Michael Cooper was to the ’80s Lakers? If Cooper isn’t in the Hall, why would Manu — with fewer rings (five to three) and not being as great at any one thing as Cooper was at defense (eight All-Defensive selections and one DPOY) — get a spot?
Our call: OUT
The H.O.F. Watch archive
11/21 - Amare Stoudemire
11/20 - Rip Hamilton
11/19 - Baron Davis
11/16 - Shaquille O’Neal
11/15 - Steve Francis
11/14 - Ben Wallace
11/13 - Sam Cassell
11/12 - LeBron James
11/9 - Tim Duncan
11/8 - Steve Nash
11/7 - Yao Ming
11/6 - Gilbert Arenas
11/5 - Robert Horry
11/2 - Kobe Bryant
11/1 - Grant Hill
10/31 - Dirk Nowitzki
10/30 - Tony Parker
10/29 - Elton Brand
10/26 - Carmelo Anthony
10/25 - Vince Carter
10/24 - Penny Hardaway
10/23 - Alonzo Mourning
10/22 - Allen Iverson
10/19 - Dwyane Wade
10/18 - Chauncey Billups
10/17 - Stephon Marbury
10/16 - Jason Kidd
10/15 - Shawn Marion
10/12 - Ray Allen
10/11 - Chris Bosh
10/10 - Chris Webber
10/9 - Paul Pierce
10/5 - Jermaine O’Neal
10/4 - Gary Payton
10/3 - Tracy McGrady
November 26th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
smity says:
i agree with the why not argument. good call. i know there are going to be a lot of upset posters today…
November 26th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
2 Easy says:
Lol Im surprised you put him as out and TP as in despite the whole international accolades thing. Well I cant say I dont disagree cause truthfully thus far the only Spurs i can think of off the top my head that should be in the HOF would be TD, The Admiral and the Iceman (I dont consider Horry a Spur, and yes that means I do think hes in). There are prolly more but as I said off the top of my head. TP can do it maybe but Im not holdin my breath. Ginobli saves his best stuff for the postsean and I dont really think that he should be faulted for doin that but hey if SA can go onto to win 2 or 3 more titles like everyone thinks they will, what will keep Ginobli out then? Right now out but thats mainly cause I dont like him too much, I repsect him, but I dont like him. Maybe a chip or 2 more and the question would turn into whats stoppin you from puttin him in?
November 26th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
djKianoosh says:
a chip or two more and he’s in.. the cooper argument doesn’t hold cause ginobili has waaaay more int’l accolades than cooper, and with another 1 or 2 rings he’ll be just as influential and decorated as cooper, if not more. he’ll probably win 6th man this year, while everyone knows he’s the one that handles the ball in the 4th quarter and not parker (unless TP has a 1-man early fastbreak opportunity).
I say by the time all is said and done, he’s in. but probably just as much because of his int’l accomplishments as his NBA credentials. maybe it might take a few tries for him to get in, but he’ll get in.
and by the way, Coop should be in too. these things take time, that’s all.
November 26th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
Celts Fan says:
between the amazing international resume (by far the best among anyone w/ a legit shot at the HOF) and the contributions to 3 title teams (and at least 1 more in the future that we all know is coming barring something unlikely like a Timmy microfracture or a Manu date-rape case) I think Manu’s definitely in by the time all’s said and done. He’s a nice player and I’m always more partial to the guy that contributes and is a team guy (how many guys of his skill would willingly come off the bench last year?) for a title team than the guy that perennially puts up good numbers on bad teams (see Brand, Elton.) There are good arguments against him, but I just don’t see how he doesn’t make it based on what he’s done for the Spurs and internationally…
IN
November 26th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
fiyaman says:
OUT ..nuff said
November 26th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
Keith says:
I love Manu, but it’s hard to rate the international stuff because I don’t have a good grasp on the achievement of it. Beating the US in the Olympics and going on to the gold was a bigger achievement than an NBA title, but the Euroleague stuff doesn’t have any resonance for me. I have to leave this one up to more knowledgeable people than myself.
November 26th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
Russ says:
This guys is a DEFINITE maybe!
Certaintly got some good international accolades….crowned by the gold medal over TEAM USA. Other than that it looks like you are only talking about 2-3 years of high level play. I’m not from Argentina to know what his rep is over there(is he looked at like a god?), as compared to someone like a Drazen Petrovic..or the dude that played for Australia (Gaze?).
He has for the most part raised his scoring average every year in the NBA (one year it looks like he may have missed some time due to injury and was one a whole 1ppg). But again I’d say only maybe 4 years of high level play.
So you’re looking at a total of 6-7 years of high level play..not enough….for now.
If he can continue to raise is numbers or atleast keep the level of play he has started this season with for 4-5 more years….and spinkle in a few more clutch shots and a ring or 2…I think he has a great case.
But until all those IF’s become facts….
OUT.
November 26th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
hatinonmanu says:
OUT and always OUT.
This guy could invent the cure to cancer, believe it IS butter and win 10 more rings, and I would still say OUT.
Manu is a rat, nothing more. The guy destroys the game with his over acting and drama. EVERY time he shoots, drives or even looks at the ball he acts like he is fouled, falls to the ground like he’s on fire and rolls around until the gurney is brought out. This guy ain’t right in the head, he has a mental condition or something…he NEVER makes a foul, and he ALWAYS fouled in his tiny little world. He whines more than Brev Knight.
Manu took a page out of Vlade’s book, and made it into “Manu’s Flopping Manual: Pussy’s Guide on Playing like a Douche”. All you idiots who believe he is “tough” and “hard nose” are what is wrong with the game today. HE creates/fakes all the contact he gets, and the times when he actually gets knocked around some, he acts like he was shot in the face with a shotgun. I would love to see a real man beat his ass down.
Bottomline: He sucks, is highly overrated and should probably get out of the NBA. The people who actually like him are simpletons who are amused by his wild hair, funny faces and stupid nose.
November 26th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
hatinonmanu says:
I just seen his numbers too. There are people out there comparing him with Tmac and Kobe and other amazing players…Manu doesn’t even come close. Basketball is about more than just numbers, but those numbers can say alot, and Manu’s say nothing good about him.
If Manu were “the man” on his own team, instead of riding on Tim’s back, would his numbers be any better? Maybe, but every game he played in would take 6 hours because of all the whining, crying and flopping he does. Once teams focused on him instead of TD or TP, he would be shutdown.
November 26th, 2007 at 5:42 pm
Linca says:
He’s in with his international play alone. A handful of titles (with what should have been finals MVP in 2005) don’t hurt his case, but it rests mostly on that “best player in Europe” thing.
IN
November 26th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
bigdre says:
you gotta look at his international resume. plus the fact that he has 3 nba rings. the guy’s a winner. he should at least get some heavy consideration for the BASKETBALL (not just NBA) HOF.
November 26th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
MoxInTheWest says:
great energy guy and role player, but not a HOFer. The flopping doesn’t bother me as much as his braces and goofey accent. Kidding aside, he is a hell of a shooter and passer and has good athleticism. Kudos again to the SA front office for getting this guy.
November 26th, 2007 at 6:54 pm
MoxInTheWest says:
Definition of the guy that is easy to hate, but you’d love to have on your team….
November 26th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
Doog says:
When evaluating a player like Manu Ginobili, it is vitally important to recall the actual selection process utilized by the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame. As Marc Stein writes:
“In basketball, there are four separate committees that screen and nominate candidates, one each for North American candidates, females, veterans who have been retired for at least 35 years before being nominated and internationals. NBA players and coaches can thus qualify in only the first of those four categories, giving women and international candidates an advantage because their pools are much smaller on the first step to enshrinement.
“Once candidates are successfully nominated into one of those four categories, they need 18 of 24 votes from their respective committees for induction. Each committee features 12 independent voters and a group of 12 that sits on all four committees.”
November 26th, 2007 at 7:51 pm
Austin Burton says:
@hatinonmanu — It’s called working the refs, something every coach and a lot of players do all the time. Of course Manu knows he commits fouls, and he knows every time he drives he doesn’t get fouled. He just puts on the whole act to give himself and the team a competitive advantage.
November 26th, 2007 at 8:53 pm
jackfruit says:
hatinonmanu is just mad cuz both his girl and his mom love ginobili.
November 26th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
kowtz says:
Basketball Hall of Fame is not about the NBA (stop thinking so high and mighty)… nuff said…
Can’t compare Manu’s stats between Kobe and T-Mac… Spur’s offense is a lot more spread over the three…
Krešimir Ćosić is a Hall of Famer as a Player (Others get in as Coaches, and contributors)…
and Manu out??? Get you’r Sh*t together…
November 26th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
djKianoosh says:
Russ, I can tell you Manu Ginobili is a god in Argentina. He is as popular as any athlete they have right now and this is in a country where soccer trumps everything else like football does field hockey here in the states. ok, there’s nothing close. and he’s THE face of the NBA in an entire country, and is the man all over south america and also in many circles in europe. internationally he’s just on another plateau. the manu haters just don’t get it. but that’s ok. his teams just win, and they can just keep on hatin him all the way to the championship.
November 26th, 2007 at 11:29 pm
girllybballluver says:
All Manu haters, also hate the Spurs…I wonder why?
November 27th, 2007 at 12:33 am
snook says:
lol @ hatinonmanu.. did he eliminate your team in the playoffs?
November 27th, 2007 at 3:32 am
os says:
ohh, hatinonmanu, little boy, cool down, get your cookies…
funny, I don’t know any manu-haters in europe
manu is IN for sure
November 27th, 2007 at 6:18 am
Rodnets says:
Hey, I am from Argentina, Manu is the best basketball player ever around here. He made a soccer-bound country root and stay up late watching games.
His international resumee is something thats out of discussion.
I don´t like him always acting like “the good boy” and “the role model”. But his skills, not only the flopping, are compared to a superstar caliber player.
He is a winner, how many stars and great players have won like him, and were a factor on their teams. He makes the team better. Yes he is in the Spurs besides Tim and TP,
Definitely IN
November 27th, 2007 at 6:34 am
Austin Burton says:
I’d put Parker in before Manu because Parker is (if begrudgingly by a lot of folks) a Top-5 point guard in the League, or at worst, close to it. Is Manu on that level when it comes to shooting guards? His international resume is as solid as anyone’s, though. I honestly mulled over this one longer than any of the HOF candidates.
November 27th, 2007 at 7:14 am
kowtz says:
Here we go again with Tp a TOP 5 PG in the league…
when do you people get it that HOF is not about NBA…
Difference between NBA and the rest of the world??? Big Money… And where do they play when it’s pure ball and not $$$$?
Olympics and FIBA’s…
Tell me Michael Cooper killed in the Olympics… Huh???
November 27th, 2007 at 8:39 am
DOC says:
i know its a lot of guards ballin right now i take over manu on my team.
November 27th, 2007 at 9:32 am
alex says:
clutch situation, 4th Q, must win game - Aside from Mamba, I’d rather have Manu over Tmac, Iverson, VC, Redd etc. He’d make a play and either end up getting the basket, getting fouled, or making the right pass.
I think Manu’s the only player to win the Euroleague, Fiba, and NBA championship. He’s definitely IN.
November 27th, 2007 at 11:19 am
Bron42 says:
Out for all the reasons that dime said. And while HOF isn’t just about the NBA, you can’t base it all on international level either. Sabonis was great before comin to the nba and bein average, doesn’t mean hes automatically in. The guy is a 3rd-4th option on great team, but doesn’t have the game to be #1 and stilll hold up. Hes abusive on teams that are well balanced and people can’t just focus on him (both euro team and the spurs) but isn’t athletic enough or offensively sound enough to dominate as “the man” on another team. To say u’d take manu over tmac and iverson is kinda crazy lol VC and redd i can understand. And just cuz cooper didn’t kill anyone in the olympics doesn’t mean anything, outside of international play he was pretty much in the same situation as manu. By that meaning, a 3rd option on a good team, who while he did step up at times, was never really the main guy. Not to mention the fact that while everyone hypes manu, he flops and overacts plus he doesn’t have many individual accolades in the NBA to show his star status in the nba. If hes in, once again its 90% cuz of international, 10% NBA. So i say hes out.
November 27th, 2007 at 11:27 am
pollackj says:
Look at his PER numbers and his +/- this year. Even though they are numbers too (and numbers don’t tell the whole story) I believe they tell a much more accurate story than ppg rpg, etc. PER and +/- number indicate how much a player contributed to his teams success while he was on the floor. In these numbers Manu looks great, until the last game or two he was FIRST in the NBA in PER, that’s pretty impressive (esp. considering how Garnett and LeBron are playing right now).
The fact is, Ginobli could be a player like Kobe or TMac or VC and carry a bad or average team and put up great numbers. (See his game last year vs the Hawks when he scored 24 straight points, or 40 against Phoenix in the playoffs.) But that is not what he is called on to do right now, his willingness to accept a lesser role is a testament to his tenacity and his commitment to winning. If you ask me, this enhances his HOF resume, it doesn’t detract from it.
November 27th, 2007 at 11:46 am
jeff says:
pollackj is right. Manu plays fewer minutes but is more productive than most other players. Plus his lack of ego, allows him to come off the bench without complaint and moreso deliver. Isiah tried to bench Marbury and he left the team for a game. Manu is a character guy that, perhaps, has the best resume of any int’l player. Olympic gold, olympic mvp, 3 nba chamionships where he was a key contributor and he should have won the mvp of the finals in 05 but for the anti-foreigner bias in the press. definitely in, and he will make it despite the xenophobia he is up against.
November 27th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
Gareth says:
Manu is IN, pure and simple. He has done everything in the game. He’s won everywhere he’s gone, and he single-handedly engineered the destruction of USA basketball in 2004. Doesn’t matter what dime predicts here b/c the hall will call Manu for sure.
November 27th, 2007 at 12:24 pm
Ludwig says:
I say out, regardless of his international accolades, he wouldn’t even be in the discussion if he wasn’t on the Spurs. He’s out for all the reasons Dime mentioned.
November 27th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
Sacto J says:
The Spurs. I don’t like em, but I can’t hate em (I only have enough hate for the lakers.) Unfortunately, I have to admit they have the best collection of world-wide talent I’ve seen in basketball since the Kings rolled up w/ Vlade, C-Webb, Peja, etc. Manu is the key to their team being succesful. Was Scott the key to the Lakers being great? Sorry, but that would have been Magic & Kareem. Without Manu, the Spurs are a 1-2 punch with no depth, period. Manu does whatever the hell Pop tells him, and Pop uses Manu like a tool for whatever work is necessary to win. In Argentina, he was THE man. I watched the FIBA’s and the Olympics, and he killed on a bum ankle with a much less talented team than the teams they were playing, yet Manu willed them to W’s. Dudes got mad game and he should get in, and I don’t even like him.
November 27th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
Ian says:
hatinonmanu please dont ever post again.
manu is in
yes he is the only player ever to win euro league , gold 2004 and nba title
hes the spurs second best player by far
and someone mentioned manu is overrated are u freakin serious hes the most underrated player in the league. i read an article on espn.com where they have manus numbers vs other elite players on a 40mnpg basis and people this man is a superstar
all the players that dime mentioned being better than him LOL
hes better than most of them i rather have him as my best player on my team than allen hamilton or anyother of those shooting guards that cant do shit but shoot alot
manu can play kobe tmac iverson anybody to a draw if he got more playing time
“we wouldnt be having this discussion if he wasnt a spurs .. out”
sure we wouldnt this man would be avg 25-30 ppg with 6assits and 6 rebounds on another team
hes is IN
any team in the league would kill to have a star that doesnt bitch about anything and does whatever he coach wants him to do
in in in in in in in in in
November 27th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
Ian says:
pollackj
u r a smart man
November 27th, 2007 at 9:13 pm
kowtz says:
I’d love to see Manu play 40 minutes on a running team…
Then let’s see his stats…
Suns? Warriors? even Utah…
November 27th, 2007 at 11:08 pm
djKianoosh says:
he’d be lethal on the suns. that just wouldn’t be fair for the rest of the league.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:04 am
Austin Burton says:
In the open floor Manu is almost unstoppable. He’s got too many moves and can hit tough shots from any angle.
November 28th, 2007 at 8:54 am
Dave says:
Like its been said its tough to judge him next to other players when he is in a situation when he takes the back seat for the good of the team and regularly comes off the bench and sacrifices his minutes and stats. He is obviously good enough to be a starter on any team in the league. I mean we can all see how he balls but because of that situation his stats don’t stack up to the other current guards that were named, and thus, the lack of accolades. I don’t agree but we all know how big a part stats play when judging a player. But like someone said earlier, with the game on the line I’d take him over T-Mac, Vince, Michael Redd, Rip Hamilton, Joe Johnson, and Iverson. Not so much last year, but during the 2005 championship run he was straight taking it to every team at the end of games. The ball was always in his hand at every crucial late game play and he would go left and take it the hole with his unorthodox release. And if not, he’d bag a huge 3. The guy is a winner, but a few more solid years and championships would make his case to be IN.
November 28th, 2007 at 8:56 am
Dave says:
and as much as I love parker, manu is a more complete player
November 28th, 2007 at 9:58 am
Ian says:
like barkley says
“GINOBLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII”
November 28th, 2007 at 10:45 am
Dave says:
A really close call, especially when taking into account his international resume, but I’d have to say OUT.
The guy is clutch and a great competitor, but his numbers just don’t stack up. It could be how Popovich uses him — that can’t be discounted — but since he will probably never be “The Man” and a #1 option, we’ll never know.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
djKianoosh says:
i think that’s a copout to say we’ve never seen him as a #1 option. just watch the Spurs play. there are plenty of times during a regular game that he actually is the primary ball handler and #1 option. also, he got all his international accolades being the #1 option and we’ve seen him tear it up in those situations.
and another subtle point, why is it that when the lakers play the spurs, Kobe defends Ginobili in critical situations? I say that show of respect is all you need to know.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:48 am
Big10 says:
Ginobili is right on the BORDERLINE for me, currently tipping towards “out.” However, with one or two more NBA rings (meaning he’d end up with 4 or 5 for his career), then he would be squarely in for me, especially having been an Olympic MVP.
Let’s give him a couple more years to add some NBA bling, or at least play in more Finals series. Or, even without that, another Olympic gold or silver would be enough also.
It’s a waiting game for now.
December 4th, 2007 at 11:55 pm
Consiglieri says:
“his NBA run hasn’t garnered many individual accolades”. Well, it looks like you don’t have the same apreciation for the game than many others, my friend. This XXI century SPURS are not very prone to concentrate everything in one guy. If consider that a plyer who takes his shots, and some other 3 teammate’s shots is a good basketball player, then we’ll never agree on what the game is about. T-MAC or Melo, just to put two exaples form your list, are ussualy more worried about scoring than wining. So they have won ANYTHING (I repeat: ANYTHING) meanwhile Manu won Olympics (gold and MVP), 2nd in 2002 World Championship, Italy league (championship and MVP) Euroleague (Championship and MVP), 3 NBA championships (and 2005 finals MVP lost by two coward votes). And if you have ever see a SPURS game, you would already now who’s putting the maney in the bank down the stretch.
He’s not selfish, and in a team oriented game that makes him better basketball player than some guys who can jump to the sky, but can’t take their teams to another level.
February 2nd, 2008 at 2:02 pm
VanGao says:
Manu Ginobili is the only player in the world to win in any level of this sport, he is a winner, Italian League (The second best league in world, he was the MVP), Euroleague (which is a league created with the best leagues in Europe, where he got the MVP award also), Olympic Gold Medal (MVP), and of course in the NBA, 3 rings, period. If he is not considerate to be in the HOF, is for other reasons, no for his achievements.
February 28th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
David says:
You really think Manu cares. Just look at his fingers, but first wear some sun glasses because the rings on his fingers might blind you. Besides Kobe, this comment “Iverson, T-Mac, Vince, D-Wade, Pierce, Arenas, Ray Allen, Michael Redd, Rip Hamilton, Joe Johnson and even a past-his-prime Reggie Miller have all been better”, is the dumbest comment I’ve ever heard. Combine all the championships for those guys, and Manu still has more championships. Scoring, defense, passing, blocking, steal, winning, the overall package Manu is…Manu just plays in a small market and Dime is just not looking at the entire picture. Ya, Reggie shoots better 3s, Arenas is a better ball handler, Vince jumps higher, but combine all the aspects of a great player and nobody on that list but Kobe is better that Manu.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:16 am
Jorge says:
I have to agreed with David 100% For me Manu is the best cluth player in the Game right now and no other player had acomplish overall more than Manu in the Past 10 years. How many Olympic gold medals does Kobe has? Kobe had Tim Duncan and many more great players from the best league in the world(NBA) besides him in the 2004 Olympics and they still couldn’t beat Argentina and their MVP Manu. By the way for those who think that Argentina winning the Olympics was a fluke let me remind them about the world Basketball tournament in Indiana USA when Argentina also beat USA and won the gold medal. No doubt he is INNNNNNNNN.
April 27th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
sportscentury says:
If you don’t think Manu is in, then you don’t know much about basketball outside the NBA. The Hall is not just about the NBA. Manu has been one of the best at every level of the game. There is no basketballer in history who has the variety of awards and championships this guy has received. I’m surprised this is so much of a debate here. Again, if you just watch the NBA (and just look at his NBA numbers), then I understand saying he is out… except for the fact that this is not the totality of what is considered for induction.