131 Responses to “H.O.F. Watch - Steve Nash”

1. November 8th, 2007 at 10:48 am

   Bron42 says:

   Will get in just cuz of the MVPs. Pretty one dimensional with assists (jason kidd is better all round)but gets destroyed on defense and has been with other allstars (dirk,josh howard, jason terry, joe johnson, amare, marion etcc) his whole career and hasnt even smelt the finals. Has had about 3 good years, john stockton had 7 years where his stats were even with nash if not better. But, you kno how it works, so he’ll be IN.

2. November 8th, 2007 at 10:49 am

   Duke says:

   No one should disagree.

3. November 8th, 2007 at 10:57 am

   Bron42 says:

   come on, you really think we could go through one of these with no “dime you lose all credibility” speech? I might do it just to get it out the way lol

4. November 8th, 2007 at 11:06 am

   Kobeef says:

   Nash and the sunds single handedly made passing cool again and made the NBA fun to watch by forcing other teams to use an “up-tempo” offense.

   I disagree that Nash is a one-dimensional player. He is a better shooter than Kidd and can carry the scoring load if needed (he tends to take on more scoring in the playoffs for some reason). I would agree is not a lock-down defender like Kidd but he is also a product of a Phoenix team that doesn’t play much D.

   He’s in for sure.

5. November 8th, 2007 at 11:11 am

   Duke says:

   He couldn’t play defense when he was still with Dallas either.

6. November 8th, 2007 at 11:11 am

   Duke says:

   He couldn’t play D either in Dallas.

7. November 8th, 2007 at 11:13 am

   Celts Fan says:

   He’s definitely in, but he’s not an all time great (HE’S NOT A TOP 10 PG, PERIOD, and definitely not better than GP and JKidd) Those 2 MVP’s guarantee he’s in, though in my opinion, his first should be at Shaq’s crib. It has to be mentioned though, that he’s every bit as bad on D as he is good on offense (and he’s PHENOMENAL w/ on offense.) Nice player, but he’ll never win a ring due to that (though I’d like to see him win one just to get ball back to “the right way” - I think Larry Brown just creamed himself hearing that…) and the Suns inexcusable decision to keep selling/trading away #1s because they don’t want to pay the luxury tax. That’s fine if you’re not competing, when you’re in a short window when you can win a ring, pony up and pay the tax or sell the fuckin team to someone that will. The people of Phoenix should be protesting outside the arena. What a joke. That’s everything that’s wrong w/ sports (ironically enough on a team - Marion’s retarded trade demand notwithstanding - that’s a model for team play.)

8. November 8th, 2007 at 11:19 am

   Bron42 says:

   Nash didn’t even play D when he was on the mavs so don’t pretend he suddenly sucked at it once he became a sun lol And theres been plenty of games where Kidd had big scoring nights. Hes not the 3 point shooter nash is but the guy can still score if he has to.

   I agree with everything celts fan said minus the marion thing since it does kinda suck to be considered a “product” of someone else when marion does just as much to help the team as nash and amare if not more. Everyone though joe johnson was a idiot for leaving cuz he was a product of nash and now hes a allstar. But ya, Nash will give you 11 assists, a few turn overs and get lit on defense.

9. November 8th, 2007 at 11:24 am

   sam says:

   I say if Dirk is out, Nash should be out too.

   It’d be nice to see them both inducted together though.

10. November 8th, 2007 at 11:35 am

    Tom Toronto says:

    Honestly, anyone that wins the MVP award should be inducted into the hall of fame. They don’t have to be the biggest name in the HOF, but if you were voted the best player in the NBA (or the best player on the best team, whatever you may argue) amongst the dozens of superstars and hundreds of the world’s best, then you get in. At the very least, an MVP should get in for making his mark on NBA history that year.

    And yes, this means Dirk should be in too.

11. November 8th, 2007 at 11:42 am

    Bron42 says:

    so if you go vin baker and have one good year and win mvp in say…a contract year..then never really do anything you should automatically be in? what if you won it undeservingly (kinda of like when they gave it to david robinson when alot of people think it should of went to the dream) does that mean ur a lock to get in? no, you cant base it on just a mvp. Cuz if i remember correctly didn’t KG win mvp in like 04?

12. November 8th, 2007 at 11:58 am

    Gee says:

    Ohhh shoot Bron you stirred me up right there! Yeeeaaa Dream totally should have got that. Ok I am done.

    Anyway MVP’s will get him in along with being a good guy in the league (although I didn’t like that whole foot in the legs of Raymond Felton thing) and he does just about everything else very well cept rebound and defend. He made Canadians cool lol and all that so yea he will get in.

    If it was to go down right this minute I would say no. Considering he will hopefully have at least 3 more good years of his numbers and playoff runs then he will certainly be in.

    Check this one though, admittedly the Run and Gun style of the Suns is fun to watch and all. Then come playoff time they get rocked! Is it just me (and it probably is) or is anyone else thinking they run themselves out during the season. Other teams take it easy with whatever style they have. While the Suns are going full throttle then come playoff time they try to go full throttle and the other teams or like yeaa ok we can go full throttle to and with more energy and beat you.
    Just Gee.

13. November 8th, 2007 at 12:05 pm

    JA says:

    What about Nash as an International Ambassador? Or the best Canadian basketball player of all time? jokes

    I think he also recorded the best time ever in the All Star skills competition - winning it in 2005. Even champions from other years (Wade, Baron, and Kidd) couldn’t best that mark.

14. November 8th, 2007 at 12:10 pm

    duaneo says:

    Yup Gee you are right. If you notice Popovich doesn’t play Duncan, Parker, or Ginobli over 35 minutes a game during the regular season, or at least prefers not too. Like Duncan sitting out the entire fourth quarter vs the Heat the other night. If saves them wear and tear, and helps prevent stupid garbage time injuries.
    However the Suns play their big 3 for 40+ a night, every night, to my knowledge that is. If their coach would just use a bench, and not worry about seeding so much, they would do a lot better. Give Amare’s knees a rest ya know! Also imagine if they didn’t trade their draft picks, and would pay luxury tax, have this team, plus Kurt Thomas back, and they could have gotten Loul Deng in the draft.
    I don’t think Deng is *that* great, but if he’s your 7th man (after barbosa) you know you got a pretty deep team.

15. November 8th, 2007 at 12:10 pm

    naphi says:

    IN. I don’t think nash should have gotten three MVPs in a row but last year he definitely deserved more then ever. How can your stats be better then your 2 MVP seasons and you NOT win it?? just doesn’t make sense.
    I love No-J-Whatsoever Kidd as much as anyone but nash can shoot the 3 ball, the 17 footer, and his signature one hand scoop, no jumping layup.

16. November 8th, 2007 at 12:19 pm

    Gee says:

    Yea duaneo that is what I was saying. You can’t run your boys out then expect them to get down all hard for a 7 game series against the best in the league. Crazy.

    Anyway far as Kidd and Nash go. It honestly depends on what you want and like. Kidd give you better rebounding and a little better D (LOL @ Kidd being a “lock down” defender…not) Nash gives you better consistent points and runs better (to me at least).

    They bout the same to me honestly. For real though, ya boi Deron Williams was doing his thing last night. I am starting to like him and I CAN’T STAND THE JAZZ!

17. November 8th, 2007 at 12:32 pm

    Celts Fan says:

    Bron, I hear ya on Marion, but he’s making a TON of $, on a competitive team, and real basketball fans know his game is only elevated by their system, not created by it (the same way Amare’s number would definitely dip if he was on a more traditional offense, but no one’s saying he’d suddenly be like Aaron Williams after he left the Nets and ended up on the back of a milk carton…)

18. November 8th, 2007 at 12:43 pm

    Lou Spliff aka Spliff 2My Lou says:

    This is one is too close to call. I love the way Nash plays and I love the Suns uptempo style and it’s safe to say the Suns would be an average team without Nash but he’s really only had a handful of great years although he did come out with 2 MVP’s. I think the thing that could keep him out would be lack of a championship ring.

19. November 8th, 2007 at 12:46 pm

    Lou Spliff aka Spliff 2My Lou says:

    In other news… Is it just me or does Shaq’s beard look like the pubic hair beard from Jackass 2?

20. November 8th, 2007 at 1:09 pm

    Myrie in NY says:

    Nash in the Hall?….Hmmm. I like Nash, but I think he has surely benefited from being surrounded by all stars in Phoenix. Ppl think Nash makes them better. But I’m not convinved on that. I feel like they make Nash better.

    Marion was an All Star before Nash got there. Amare was ROY with Marbury as his point guard. Not to mention Joe Johnson and Q-Richardson were already proven when Nash arrived. What was Nash before he landed in Phoenix around that group?

    Still, its hard to discredit his credentials. Back-to-back MVPs along with leading the leageue in assists for a few yrs gets you in.

    I think Nash will get in for being a white player who put a string of great seasons together. Let’s not be nieve here…..a white point guard like him is always going to get shine (from the media). But he’s still a bit overrated. Kidd still gives you more on the court. But this ain’t about Kidd. We already know Kidd is better all around. At least he got his squad to back-to-back finals (and should have been league MVP in 2002).

    Stevie Nashty gets in….but dude still needs to prove he can win the big games in the playoffs.

21. November 8th, 2007 at 1:09 pm

    Lucky Lester says:

    Nash can also light up a score book when it’s the most important thing for him to do - that’s Nash to a T - when he needs to do something, he does it - and Bron, he has “sniffed” the Finals, it’s not like he gets booted from the 1st round every season… C’mon… Nash is the perfect offensive point guard - he can drive and is one of the best passers in the game, ask anyone that’s every played with him. Also, he hits half his 3s and in the playoffs, when people try to take his dishes away, he puts up huge games…

    Dude is a LOCK!

22. November 8th, 2007 at 1:13 pm

    Bron42 says:

    Whens the last time nash had a triple double? how many does kidd have? that alone states how much he does. Sure he might not avearge 30ppg but the guy obviously scores on a regular basis. So like i said, nash can shoot better than J kidd but kidd can still score and get to the basket plus give you 10 rebounds, 10 assists and at least slow another pg down (nash couldnt guard my laundry pile)

    I agree celts kinda of but the fact marions stats have pretty much stayed the same, from when marbury was there. So nash didn’t do that much of a difference. Even in college he was the same type of player and his community college team and then UNLV team sure weren’t run and gun like the suns. He could easily be a ron artest/bruce bowen guy on a non run and gun team. His style may be unorthodox but hes shown if hes needed to score, he can. Just look at the game when amare was supsended. Marion kept them in the game.

    And if your stats are better than the year you won mvp, how do you not win it? easy, someone has a EVEN better year. Same way nash won it when shaq should of. Everyone fell in love with nash’s hype and overlooked shaq. Just like everyone fell in love with dirks hype and winning streak and over looked nash.So give one of nash’s mvps, to shaq, give dirks mvp to nash and were all good.

    Nash isn’t really a international anything. a) most people forget hes canadian and he wasnt even raised there and went to college in the US. b)canada’s international team sucks. c) since he came its not like a ton of other canadian players came through the doors he opened. No scouts are suddenly ripping canada apart lookin for the next nash.

23. November 8th, 2007 at 1:15 pm

    fiyaman says:

    Nash should be in ..

    I kind of agree with Tom Toronto.. its hard to argue with a league MVP but u still have to go by case-by-case basis

24. November 8th, 2007 at 1:17 pm

    Myrie in NY says:

    Tom Toronto–

    In regards to post #8….you are tripping. An MVP award shouldn’t get anyone into the HOF. The HALL, is based a candidates complete body of work. Not just 1 measley season.

    What next….all star appearances and 30pt games?
    When did they get computers in Tdot anyway?

25. November 8th, 2007 at 1:17 pm

    Bron42 says:

    The guy has bad 3-4 good years, been with countless other allstarts who were considered league elite at the time (no washed up guys ala kobe gettin karl malone) and still hasnt been to the finals..so no he hasnt sniffed it. And I wouldn’t say PERFECT offensive pg but hes a good offensive pg. Like i said in tons of other posts. Its not like hes turnin the grizzlies into the spurs. Hes been on teams with other proven stats and still doesnt win. and his lack of defense will always cancel out his offensive abilities. 11 assists that equal 22 points dont really matter if you let tony parker give you 33 points.

26. November 8th, 2007 at 1:48 pm

    djKianoosh says:

    at first glance, I was going to say in easy, but all these negative aspects in the comments make you stop and think a little… ok, i’m done. he’s still in! lol

    I don’t think it’s fair to compare him to J Kidd because I think you get in on your own merits. Of course he’s not going to get triple doubles. it’s not his game. but running the fast break? check. pick and rolls to perfection? check. jump shot with range? check. deep playoff runs? check. bringing back high scoring and run n’ gun to the 21st century after it had all but vanished for a decade? check.

    nd if you think he’s a product of their system and other players make him better, i beg to differ. a great passer makes everyone else better by definition. just the fact that he can find them makes them move more and just that motion makes a team better. how many times do you see kobe doing his thing going for 50 and everybody else just standing around staring? uh oh, that’s a can of worms right there…

27. November 8th, 2007 at 1:55 pm

    E-ROC says:

    Nash is in. Having a ring would be nice, but there is no denying a 2 time MVP, even though I thought Kobe got shafted.

28. November 8th, 2007 at 1:55 pm

    E-ROC says:

    Nash is in. Having a ring would be nice, but there is no denying a 2 time MVP, even though I thought Kobe got shafted out of one of those.

29. November 8th, 2007 at 1:56 pm

    dank says:

    OUT. No ring and never making it past the WCF = choke, like his husband Dirk. Nash is OUT of the HOF but he will make it because all the sportswriters who took away the MVP from Shaq in 05 and Kobe in 06 will probably vote him in. such a disgrace to the game of basketball, a complete disrespect to the concept of fundamentals. Defense, my friends, wins championships. and Steve Nash, nor any of his teams, ever bothered to play defense. and that is why he shouldnt be in. yes his passes are amusing, yes he shoots lights out. but you put a good defender on him (oh wait, Sasha Vujacic and Jordan Farmar arent good defenders) and he will become a Turnover Machine. 3rd in the league last year behind Eddy CUrry and Dwight Howard (wait i think those guys are like 6′11).

    but of course, continue to suck him off

30. November 8th, 2007 at 2:07 pm

    DOC says:

    hes 3rd in to because the rock stays in his hands. Hes in cause hes a fuckin monster out there. He loses to the Spurs every year. Big deal so do everybody else. They got the best PF ever.

31. November 8th, 2007 at 2:09 pm

    Lucky Lester says:

    dank - lay off your namesake…

32. November 8th, 2007 at 2:24 pm

    Myrie in NY says:

    Dank–
    Shawn Marion is an above average defender. And Raja Bell made all nba first team on defense. Just wanted to let you know since you questioned whether Nash’s teammates play defense.

    And to djKianoosh—
    Phoenix did not bring run-gun offense back into the 21st century. The Sacto Kings of 2000-2002 did all of this. And they did it with more flair. Players on their bench (Barry & Bobby Jax) were throwing behind the back passes in half court sets. Not to mention white chocolate, CWebb, Vlade and Miss Doug Christie in their starting lineup. We have seen this type of offense before. D’Antoni’s Suns are nice, but not that special.

    Nash will get into the Hall, but the baller is still overrated. You might get the same results putting Mike Bibby on the Suns or maybe even Andre Miller.

33. November 8th, 2007 at 2:27 pm

    Myrie in NY says:

    Doc–

    3rd in the leage in TOs is 3rd in the league. Do not make excuses for Nash. Howard and Curry are big men. Hence you will get more offensive fouls, 3 second violations, stripped balls and over the back calls.

    Whats Nash’s excuse for so many turnovers?

34. November 8th, 2007 at 2:32 pm

    Gee says:

    I think Nash has come into his own. I think one question is how he would do in a different system and with lower caliber players. I tend to think that he would still post great numbers because of who he has developed into and what he has learned from his mediocre years. Now, that said, being that he is not on a lower caliber team and he is in the system he is in, more than likely he will post great numbers as time goes. He will probably still be mentioned as a candidate for future mvp’s. Sure they are not balling now but if I am correct last year they didn’t start off to hot. Anyway with no injuries and as long as they keep star power around him he should do fine enough to get in.

    Kidd Vs. Nash is a draw! If I had to choose though I am rolling with Kidd. He rebounds!

35. November 8th, 2007 at 2:36 pm

    Bron42 says:

    Dj…kobe isn’t a pg…kidd has made playoff runs (finals twice)and runs a fast break just as good if not better than nash. Nash’s only high point is his shooting over kidds. Not to mention the nets with martin, jefferson and kidd were running way before nash was a sun. Plus wat good is bringing run and gunm back if he hasn’t wont anything with it?

    Doc- he has turnovers cuz the bal is always in his hands? um same with every other pg in the league. Yet tony parker and deron williams weren’t top 3 in turn overs so dank has a point. Plus the mavs didnt lose to the spurs and the suns have more talent than the mavs and heat.

    Myrie…I see a young ME when you comment lol…agree 100%

36. November 8th, 2007 at 2:42 pm

    Bron42 says:

    all of kidds career stats out due nash minus FG%..so not really a draw.

    Kidds career: 14.5 ppg. 2.0 steals. 9.2 assists. 6.7 rebounds.

    Nash: 14.1 ppg, 0.8 steals, 7.6 assists. 2.9 rebound.

    Nash’s whole legacy is based around assists but kidd averages more for his careeer..wheres the draw?

37. November 8th, 2007 at 3:12 pm

    duaneo says:

    When comparing Kidd and Nash the two things that stick out to me are:
    Kidd: 2.0 steals, 6.7 rebounds.
    Nash: 0.8 steals, 2.9 rebounds.

    Kidd has been the man (as far as PGs go) for basically his whole career, right?
    Looking at Nash when he was in Dallas, would you say he was a HOFer then? I wouldn’t. So Nash has been great for a few years, and will probably be great for a couple more. If he wins a ring, or a couple more MVPs I’d put him in, otherwise I say out.

    Also you can’t fault someone for always playing with other all-stars. The unselfish players who want to win rings are going to play with other all-stars. Kobe / Shaq. Duncan / Parker / Manu. Jordan / Pippin. etc etc
    I guess my point is, a player shouldn’t have to go to a team full of scrubs just to prove they are good at basketball.

38. November 8th, 2007 at 3:24 pm

    Tom Toronto says:

    For Bron & Myrie,

    We’re not talking about the scoring title, or being all nba, or any shit like that. We’re talking MVP. 1 name, per year, for the entire league which is comprised of the best ball players on earth. Go look at the list of MVPs and tell me who shouldn’t be in the HOF. Matter of fact, here’s the link:
    http://www.nba.com/history/awards_mvp.html

    I don’t know why you mentioned vin baker at all Bron, he didn’t win shit, and no way is that guy in the HOF. And true HOF is a body of work, but it’s also for guys who were memorable and made a big mark on NBA history. To me, if you’re the MVP, you made a massive mark in the NBA, no question. You look at that list of HOF candidates from Dime and there’s only TWO people that have the Maurice Podoloff MVP trophy. It’s way fucking harder to get than a HOF consideration.

    Oh and smity, we here in Toronto got computers about 5 years ago, but we didn’t have electricty until about 2 years ago, so before that we just gave them to the beavers to make dams.

39. November 8th, 2007 at 3:31 pm

    djKianoosh says:

    damn! ya’ll make great points for and against… bron and myrie, totally right about the Sacto and Kidd points, respectively. but then Tom Toronto brings up the MVP list, and he’s right too, that list just speaks for itself.

40. November 8th, 2007 at 3:40 pm

    Bron42 says:

    recheck ur stats tom. Cuz I’m assuming your 2 people are dirk and nash, meanwhile people overlook that KG won MVP in 04, iverson won it in 01. Both have better stats than nash and dirk.

    I mentioned vin baker just as a far off example. so read a post before you comment. I said WHAT IF, someone had 1 great year, and then won MVP and sucked suddenly. Is he still a lock for the hall of fame since he won MVP once. Simple question. Simple answer welcome. Like myrie said. What someone could hav ONE great season and win a MVP..has the majority of nash’s career been great? no. but he had 2-3 great seasons in the suns on a stacked team and still didn’t win. So how is he a lock to get in?

    So if you read your list…both iverson and KG won MVP carrying their teams of bums. Dirk and Nash won just cuz their team had good records while other guys had better stats. So my case still stands. Hail nash as the best pg ever all you want, but his career is watered down and only important now cuz he had 3 good years on the suns. Kidds stats are better, hes gotten farther, hes been doin it longer AND has better all around stats including assists which is why everyone is on nash’s nuts.

41. November 8th, 2007 at 3:44 pm

    Bron42 says:

    Kobes 81 left just as much a mark on the nba as anything dirk has done yet he didn’t win mvp. So if were ignoring full career (which would cancel out since nash’s early years were subpar until the suns) and just going on something that leaves a big enough mark on ONE season to WIN MVP than shaq and kobe both should have another mvp. Cuz kobe single handedly got his team to the playoffs and gave the suns a scare by himself. Nash has had 2-3 other allstars on his team his whole career and still doesnt get them over the hum.

42. November 8th, 2007 at 3:46 pm

    duaneo says:

    You got that right Bron!
    Put Kidd on a team with Marion and a healthy Amare and lets see how many assists he racks up every night. He’d lead the league in assists, and still get more rebounds and steals than Nash.
    Meanwhile, put Nash on the Nets with Jefferson and K-Mart, do you think they go to the NBA Finals twice? Nope.

43. November 8th, 2007 at 3:47 pm

    Celts Fan says:

    To clarify, I wasn’t trying to take anything away from Marion. My point is that he’s a really, really good player regardless of who he’s with, just that his numbers probably increase by 3-5 ppg and 1 board/dime/steal per game by being in the system because the system is so fast-paced (as in, if he’s carrying the Bobcats, he probably averages 20, 8, 5, and 3, whereas on teh Suns, he’s able to average more like 23, 10, 7, and 4 or something.) That’s just a fact. You put anyone (that’s that good of a fit and that talented) into their system, their numbers jump. Not a knock on Marion, it’s just a fact, and my point was that his were only elevated by being in the system, not created by being in it.
    Speaking of their system, the reason Nash is 3rd in turnovers is because he’s in that system. It places less of a value on ball control and more value on taking the first available shot and pushing the ball, thus creating a frenzied pace that will wear down their opponents. An obvious by-product of a system like that is that you’ll turn the ball over more than a more traditional offense. I don’t think you can use that stat against him (and I don’t like the Suns at all, but fair is fair…)

44. November 8th, 2007 at 3:50 pm

    Celts Fan says:

    You’re dead on too duaneo. Put JKidd on this Suns team, in this system, he may match Oscar’s season of averaging a triple double (and they might actually win a ring since Kidd plays BOTH ends of the floor.)

45. November 8th, 2007 at 3:52 pm

    Gee says:

    Yo Bron42 here is your draw. Wait. first I got to dap you up homey cause you gave me stats and I love the stats. Stats wise you are right he does have it. But Bron why doesn’t Kidd have an MVPeeeeeeeee lol???? Wait Nash has 2 and was considered for 3 hmmm and how many does Kidd have…wait how many is Kidd even mentioned in being up for? So there is your draw. Mind you I did say in the heat of battle I would take Kidd.

    I am just saying though apparently the NBA must have been on Nash’s nuts to give him 2 mvp’s and Kidd gets nada. I mean if you can answer that Bron then I am good till then yea it’s a draw, cause apparently there is something Kidd is not doing that Nash is doing right.

    Also not to mention with Kidd you get a lot of off court drama (that is well documented). Perhaps it’s image??? Points? Assist? Hmmm it’s something.

    I understand you don’t feel it’s a draw though and that is cool and you presented a good reason for it not being except as to if yo boi is balling so much better than Nash then where are the accolades?

46. November 8th, 2007 at 3:54 pm

    dank says:

    yes i know Marion and Raja play D. Shawn shoulda been on the Defensive 1st team last year. BUT do the suns play D? did the Mavs play D? im pretty sure Avery Johnson is happy Nash isnt playing on his team, because he would’ve been a defensive liability. and offensive too, i believe Myrie made my point: if it wasnt for the fact that Howard and Curry are more prone to turnovers, Nash would’ve led the league in turnovers, by a mile. i think AI was the next guard after Nash. but the point here is that the dude throws the ball around, and yes HE MAKES circus passes but 4 turnovers a game for 11 passes? i’d rather have a guard that gets me 1 turnover and 4 passes. whats Nash’s excuse for so many turnovers? “oops i thought you’d be there” or my personal favorite “the defender actually played decent D, which is all you have to do when you play me, made me nervous, stuck with me all the way down the court, and i freaked out and he got a piece or i simply threw it away”

    that being said, Steve Nash’s name does not deserve to be up there with the rest of the MVP trophy winners. you are an idiot if you put his name along with GOATs like Magic and MJ and Bird

    oh and there is one final issue that i do not want to bring up about why Nash won the MVPs. and it has to do with the league’s image, and also with those “voters”

    HOF worthy? far from it

47. November 8th, 2007 at 3:57 pm

    Gee says:

    Naw I aint even go say that. I feel at this time. At this time. If you put Nash with the Nets he still does well cause of what he knows and has learned.

    I won’t dispute if you put Kidd with the Suns that would be the bomb too. Are the Suns trying to get Kidd instead of Nash or did I miss something.

    So while we are giving all this credit to Kidd and lets not take it completely away from Nash because either Nash got a hustle we don’t know about with Stern and is able to get all that MVP consideration. Or either he is super tight with the Suns GM so they won’t ask to bring Kidd over or something.

    Even with him not doing as much as Kidd he still does apparently just enough. Cause for Kidd to do so much hmmmm you all still can’t answer why he aint better off than he is. Let the flood gates open.

48. November 8th, 2007 at 3:59 pm

    Gee says:

    So dank don’t just say that and be out. Explain. What about those “voters” lol?? Also if image is so important that perhaps a lot of players need to get their ish together.

49. November 8th, 2007 at 4:05 pm

    Bron42 says:

    Gee, heres my question. Look at the stats…whose career got helped more by nash goin to the suns….dirks?nash?marion? amare?joe johnson? Both amare and marion have pretty much the same stats before nash got there yet nash is gettin the mvp. So did he really change the suns much? Dirk got better without nash, do did nash really change the cavs much? also, ya nash has 2 mvps, one he doenst really deserve and kidd has 2 finals appearences. nash has…o wait..Nash hasn’t elavated anyones games. If anything HE got better by the trade cuz of who he was playing with. Meanwhile kidd has turned average guys into allstars. Jefferson was blah in college and now hes a poor mans carter next to kidd. What happen to kenyon martin after the nets? Kidd makes people better, nash just speeds up the tempo of already good players. Like i said before, nash and dirk won it cuz of overall team record, not cuz of their individual stats.

    And while everyone knows I think nash is overrated. I wouldnt say hes FAR from hall of fame worthy. I just think people hype everything him and dirk do 2x.

50. November 8th, 2007 at 4:07 pm

    Duke says:

    If kidd scored as much on the court as off, BEST PLAYER EVER!!!

51. November 8th, 2007 at 4:07 pm

    Gee says:

    Can’t believe I am going out for Nash like this. He ain’t even one of my favorite dudes lol. Anyway and on J Kidd’s rebounds (mind you I said I would take him over Nash cause he does rebound) let’s not act like he is boxing out hard and beasting to get the boards. About 3 to 6 of his boards come of long rebounds where no one else is and other times he is just quicker to the ball when it’s not coming down low in the paint where all the trees are. Don’t get me wrong when he gets his 10 that is really great for a guard. I am just saying lets not act like he is in there deep getting them. he is just smart in how he gets them.
    I am sure in a different system as Celts said Nash probably could grab more boards too. That is not what he is asked to do or has to do on that team though. He does his job and does it very well.

52. November 8th, 2007 at 4:08 pm

    Celts Fan says:

    Gee, by the same standards Nash won under, Kidd should definitely have an MVP from one of the 2 years he took the Nets to the Finals.
    Also, it can’t be left unsaid that Nash only really became a star after those rules changes about 4 years ago meant to open up the offense, whereas, when there was still a more physical style of play allowed, he was average at best and getting tossed around like Paris Hilton…

53. November 8th, 2007 at 4:09 pm

    Celts Fan says:

    He’s definitely gonna make the Hall, but let’s be real, if Kidd didn’t beat his wife, he’s MVP that year and this discussion isn’t really happening. (and yes, I’m a Celtics fan and still hate JKidd, but you gotta respect the man’s ability… the man can hit jumpers, and his wife!)

54. November 8th, 2007 at 4:12 pm

    Tom Toronto says:

    Stats aren’t everything Bron, it doesn’t matter that KG and AI have better stats, and honestly, are better players. Would I put Nash and Dirk in the HOF before them? No. Nash and Dirk should still get in though. So would Kobe. But that’s exactly my point, if Kobe can do all the stuff he’s done, which is ridiculous, and STILL not get the MVP award, doesn’t that make it an even more prestigious accolade?

    And for the other point, if one person has a sick year, but does nothing else, they don’t get the MVP. It’s not just a one season award, you get it after putting in time in the league, and then get recognized. It’s not just about crazy stat lines, it’s voted on, and has a lot to do with who the player is. Just like the HOF.

    To further the point, can you name someone on the MVP list prior to Nash and Dirk that shouldn’t make the HOF? Cuz I can’t.

55. November 8th, 2007 at 4:16 pm

    Gee says:

    Like i said before, nash and dirk won it cuz of overall team record, not cuz of their individual stats.

    Bron if Nash won it cuz of overall recored then that means he is doing what is necessary to help get his team that record. Where is Kidd’s overall team record that gets him his??? What good is going to the finals (still no MVP now) and not winning. He doesn’t have nothing over Nash in accolades?? I am not saying that is right but what I am saying is because of the accolades that is what puts him in and he is worth the hype cause he is really good. Yall giving Kidd props to death but he has NOTHING to show for it. Cause I am thinking if you all are so right about Kidd, with two finals, better rebounding, better D, can score a little, makes others better ….then where is yo ish at homey? Where are your rings, MVP’s (even consideration), and what not. Exactly. Were they stolen????

56. November 8th, 2007 at 4:18 pm

    Tom Toronto says:

    LOL true story Celts, he’s probably got better %’s hitting his wife than hitting the J.

57. November 8th, 2007 at 4:19 pm

    Gee says:

    Celt we can “if” all day you know that. Bottom line is Kidd don’t have jack! You got to go on what is there. Right now you can vouch for Kidd all you want but that don’t change what is there.

    If that whole beating the wife thing is the case, then perhaps he is smarter on the the court than off. Dude shouldn’t be hittin no girl anyway. LOL

58. November 8th, 2007 at 4:29 pm

    duaneo says:

    Well Kidd would have several rings now if his wife didn’t get in the way. To my understanding she was getting into acting on local t.v. in NJ, so Kidd stayed with the Nets instead of signing with the Spurs. Parker even said at the time if Kidd came to the Spurs, Kidd could run the point and he would move to the 2 spot.
    Yes Nash has two MVP awards, good for him. I think MVP voters are influenced by stats, fast play etc. Instead of going by “Who is the most valuable player in the league. If that person was traded for another player, their team would take a huge drop” To me, you trade Kidd for any other PG and the Nets don’t make the playoffs.
    But then again, who is a better all around player than Tim Duncan? Also if Kobe isn’t the single most valuable player to his team, I don’t know who is.

    Basically I’m saying MVP awards go to who the voters like watching the most, not who is the most valuable player in the league.

59. November 8th, 2007 at 4:35 pm

    Reed Ewing Frazier says:

    No, he needs a least three more good seasons or a ring
    Allstar games and MVP awards are tainted now thanks to Mr. Stern’s global NBA. He is overrated but it is not his fault I blame the media I really like Nash but I feel there are better Pgs(Deron Williams, Chauncey Billups) but oh well
    Please Dime Mag and everyone else please stop using that dumb argument that a player is the beneficiary of playing with All-Stars or the product of a system. Please name one HOF that didn’t have an All-Star teammate or was in a good system(except maybe Wilt or D. Wilkins) The reality is that the Suns will never win a title unless they play defense. I will be looking forward to a Finals rematch with the Spurs this season
    Knicks Up the rest down!!!!

60. November 8th, 2007 at 4:35 pm

    Tom Toronto says:

    Granted duaneo, that Kobe doesn’t have any MVPs, for whatever reason. But everyone loves watching Kobe. Tim Duncan has two MVP trophies. So does Karl Malone, and who ever liked watching him play?

61. November 8th, 2007 at 4:37 pm

    Coldchain says:

    Kidd lost to the dynasty Lakers in one Finals and Duncan’s Spurs in another Finals. Dirk could have gone up 3-0 on a flawed Heat team and he choked. And Kidd should have won the MVP his first year in Jersey. He took them from like a 26-win team to a 50-something win team.

62. November 8th, 2007 at 4:38 pm

    Gee says:

    There we go with the “if” thing. Let us not play that game. That is like saying well you know if A.I. was 6′9 he would have beat the Lakers that year and got his ring. If Harold Miner did such and such he would have been the next Jordan. Man pleeeassee.

    I can’t go on speculation dude. Apparently none of “us” no what the exact criteria is for the MVP soooo maybe the L needs to let Kidd and all the other players know who have been shafted so they can qualify by getting their ish straight. Apparently Nash got the memo.

    Still a draw to me. I am saying both are great and both are excellent. Sure J.Kidd has always been the bomb and Nash just recently but they both have made bomb status anyway. Don’t take away from either one. Let us, let both of them be great in their own right. Nash will get in more than likely and hopefully J. Kidd too.

    For now you guys are off the “Hot Seat”. LOL

63. November 8th, 2007 at 4:47 pm

    duaneo says:

    Tom Toronto, let me rephrase:

    Recently MVP awards go to who the voters like watching the most, not who is the most valuable player in the league.

    AI in 01 makes sense.
    TD in 02 and 03 makes sense.
    KG in 04.. maybe.

    But you have to be BSing me to say that Nash deserved the next two and Dirk deserved it last year. Quite a few point guards could replace Nash and the Suns would still have the same regular season success.
    Remember the MVP is a regular season award, who is more valuable to their teams than Kidd, Kobe, TD, and Lebron?
    If you switched Lebron with Kobe, I think Lakers and Cavs still make playoffs. But switch them with any other SG or SF and I don’t see it happening.
    I don’t think voting is biased by race, like some people on espn.com have commented when Nash won his two, but I do think the past few years the voters have been caught up in the “storm” so to say. The Sun are awesome to watch, fun, lots of scoring etc. Dirk also put up great numbers last year and the Mavs had a great record.
    However that doesn’t mean Nash and Dirk were the MVPs in their respective years, because they sure as hell weren’t.

64. November 8th, 2007 at 4:48 pm

    Gee says:

    “I’s move dolo from state to state”

65. November 8th, 2007 at 4:50 pm

    Gee says:

    Now that is messed up cause I typed way more than that. Who is running the board lol. Stern is that you? Anyway I got to roll but you cats be holding it down and coming with it. I hate to miss what else yall gone write. DIME I appreciate the forum.

    Kidd is in ….wait this is for Nash aint it. 1

    “I’s move dolo from state to state” was Meth from Belly lol

66. November 8th, 2007 at 4:59 pm

    Tom Toronto says:

    I’m still not convinced that you could put a lot of pgs in for Nash and see the same results, but I do see your point. Last three awards have been slanted to “best player on a great team” rather than just “best player.” But to me, that’s still what the HOF is all about. Legendary teams, leaders, good people off the court, all that stuff. I love stats as much as anybody, but when it comes down to experts/critics voting, the intangibles hold a lot of weight.

67. November 8th, 2007 at 5:25 pm

    dagwaller says:

    “The guy has bad 3-4 good years, been with countless other allstarts who were considered league elite at the time (no washed up guys ala kobe gettin karl malone) and still hasnt been to the finals..so no he hasnt sniffed it. And I wouldn’t say PERFECT offensive pg but hes a good offensive pg. Like i said in tons of other posts. Its not like hes turnin the grizzlies into the spurs. Hes been on teams with other proven stats and still doesnt win. and his lack of defense will always cancel out his offensive abilities. 11 assists that equal 22 points dont really matter if you let tony parker give you 33 points.”

    Whew, where to begin. No, he didn’t turn the Grizzlies into the Suns. He turned a team that was a borderline playoff team into a powerhouse. Still doesn’t win? That’s just retarded, I’m sorry. How many 50 win seasons has he had? Doesn’t win? Think before you post. Yea, 11 assists equals 22 points, not as good as TP’s 33. Until you factor in Nash’s points, so throw in another 20 or 30 there. Jesus. Same team as other stars? I guess Jason Kidd shouldn’t get in for being with Richard Jefferson and Vince Carter and not “sniffing the finals”. And he doesn’t even have to go through Dallas or San Antonio.

    Dank, if you’re pulling the race card, I wonder who voted for all of the black MVPs/HOFers. Terrible.

    These comparisons don’t mean anything. The HOF voters aren’t going to look at Jason Kidd and say, “wow, that guy was a better rebounder than Nash…Nash is out!” Or “Jason Kidd couldn’t shoot for shit…out!” They’re going to judge each player on his own merits. Kidd is in on his, and I think Nash is going to get in on his. Best offensive guard of the era. Was he helped by the kinds of teams he played for? Hell yes. But he was also hurt for the same reason (health issues, t.o.’s, bad defense, didn’t get as far in the playoffs). Thing is, he hasn’t gotten any worse over the last few years, so we can probably assume that he’ll be doing his thing in a couple years, too. That team could go to the Finals this year, and there are a few HOF locks out there that never won the whole thing, either.

    His offense more than cancels out his defense, WHICH IS BY DESIGN. It’s sad that everyone hates on him so bad for that stuff when they keep trotting him out there. Think about it. If he was so bad at defense that he actually cancelled out his offense, he wouldn’t be playing. He definitely wouldn’t be a 2-time MVP.

    I’m obviously a Nash fan, but objectively, if the guys voting on MVP got him twice, I think he’s probably getting in the HOF, too.

68. November 8th, 2007 at 5:50 pm

    smity says:

    “Oh and smity, we here in Toronto got computers about 5 years ago, but we didn’t have electricty until about 2 years ago, so before that we just gave them to the beavers to make dams.”

    Tom Toronto-

    i never said anything about you all not having computers…

69. November 8th, 2007 at 5:53 pm

    Tom Toronto says:

    Shit sorry smity, I meant Myrie. I apologize.

70. November 8th, 2007 at 5:57 pm

    smity says:

    it’s cool, as long as you didnt confuse me with that idiot Bron…

71. November 8th, 2007 at 5:59 pm

    smity says:

    lol

72. November 8th, 2007 at 6:05 pm

    smity says:

    “November 8th, 2007 at 5:25 pm

    dagwaller says:

    “The guy has bad 3-4 good years, been with countless other allstarts who were considered league elite at the time (no washed up guys ala kobe gettin karl malone) and still hasnt been to the finals..so no he hasnt sniffed it. And I wouldn’t say PERFECT offensive pg but hes a good offensive pg. Like i said in tons of other posts. Its not like hes turnin the grizzlies into the spurs. Hes been on teams with other proven stats and still doesnt win. and his lack of defense will always cancel out his offensive abilities. 11 assists that equal 22 points dont really matter if you let tony parker give you 33 points.”

    Whew, where to begin. No, he didn’t turn the Grizzlies into the Suns. He turned a team that was a borderline playoff team into a powerhouse. Still doesn’t win? That’s just retarded, I’m sorry. How many 50 win seasons has he had? Doesn’t win? Think before you post. Yea, 11 assists equals 22 points, not as good as TP’s 33. Until you factor in Nash’s points, so throw in another 20 or 30 there. Jesus. Same team as other stars? I guess Jason Kidd shouldn’t get in for being with Richard Jefferson and Vince Carter and not “sniffing the finals”. And he doesn’t even have to go through Dallas or San Antonio.

    Dank, if you’re pulling the race card, I wonder who voted for all of the black MVPs/HOFers. Terrible.

    These comparisons don’t mean anything. The HOF voters aren’t going to look at Jason Kidd and say, “wow, that guy was a better rebounder than Nash…Nash is out!” Or “Jason Kidd couldn’t shoot for shit…out!” They’re going to judge each player on his own merits. Kidd is in on his, and I think Nash is going to get in on his. Best offensive guard of the era. Was he helped by the kinds of teams he played for? Hell yes. But he was also hurt for the same reason (health issues, t.o.’s, bad defense, didn’t get as far in the playoffs). Thing is, he hasn’t gotten any worse over the last few years, so we can probably assume that he’ll be doing his thing in a couple years, too. That team could go to the Finals this year, and there are a few HOF locks out there that never won the whole thing, either.

    His offense more than cancels out his defense, WHICH IS BY DESIGN. It’s sad that everyone hates on him so bad for that stuff when they keep trotting him out there. Think about it. If he was so bad at defense that he actually cancelled out his offense, he wouldn’t be playing. He definitely wouldn’t be a 2-time MVP.

    I’m obviously a Nash fan, but objectively, if the guys voting on MVP got him twice, I think he’s probably getting in the HOF, too.”

    ahem- I rest my case (i knew that if i sat here and waited long enough someone else would sum up my thoughts exactly)

73. November 8th, 2007 at 6:12 pm

    K.i.n.G. says:

    I love jkidd but the rebounding argument gets me so angry because jkidd doesnt deserve those rebounds u have to thank his bigs who box out their man!!!! jkidd literally steals rebounds from his big man! like honestly when is the last time y’all seen jkidd box out or out jump some one to get a board!!?!?!?

74. November 8th, 2007 at 6:30 pm

    Russ says:

    wow. some of you guys are on that stuff! this one is easy…he’s in. no one has any good arguments.

    He has no rings???

    Neither do barkley, ewing, stockton, malone, gp, everyone’s beloved j kidd, and a host of others….I guess they won’t make it either huh?

    Somebodies gotta win the ring, and somebodies gotta lose. When you have teams repeating or winning multiple titles in a short span, some people are obviously gonna get left out of a ring.

    Why are we talking about vin baker? there is no WHAT IF with vin baker. seriously, no one ever thought ‘oh what if vin baker never became an alchy, he woulda been great!?!?’ so go away with WHAT IF’s in this case. the only thing that dude would win MVP of is his AA league.

    He’s only had 3 or 4 good years?

    Better go look at the stats. He’s averaged over 15/7 for the last 7 years straight, and he’ll do it again this year. The only reason he didn’t put up similar numbers even longer is that he wasn’t getting any burn. In fact, he was playing close 1000 less minutes per season before the ‘01 season than he has been since. Playoff averages are higher than regular season averages…so I don’t see how he is ‘choking’. 6th most double digit assist games in league history. 1 shy of the nba record for assists in a playoff game. tied the record for assists in a half. 48 point playoff game followed by a triple double the next game, etc.

    also, CAREER averages of

    fg .484%
    3 pt .427%
    FT .897%

    very elite list with those number right there. only bird, dirk, and maybe 1 or 2 others can say that. probably reggie and mark price are the others.

    some of his assist accomplishments are only matched by magic, stockton, cousy, kidd and oscar roberston, pretty good company there.

    not to mention

    5 time all star
    2 time back to back MVP’s
    2 time conference player of the year in college (holds most of the all-time offensive records there)
    his led teams led the league in scoring for 5 straight years

    also got the memorable college game sticking those ice cold free throws to knock out arizona of the tournament.

    not quite sure where the arugment is on this one???

    he has a lot of turnovers??? are you serious???? he’s a point guard, he has the ball in his hands more than anyone else. the more you handle the ball, the more turnovers you will have. simple statistics people! almost all great point guards have high overall number of turnovers. AI is always on of the league leaders, as are gil and kobe.

    it seems it became a debate of who’s better..kidd and nash. and not whether nash is a hof’er. the latter is simple, the former more subjective.

    IMO kidd and nash are about even on passing. offensively(shooting and scoring) i give the edge to nash. and defensive and rebounding i give to kidd. both great players (HOF players) that bring slightly different things to the table.

    but as far as HOF goes…nash=in easily.

75. November 8th, 2007 at 6:34 pm

    ldawg23 says:

    Let me only say this. Steve Nash won the 2nd MVP trophy because he had better stats then the year before. All most all of the journalist said, “if we gave it to him last year, and he did better this year, WE have to give it to him again.”
    04-05 15.5 pt , 11.5 ast, 3.3 rbs, 34.3 minutes per
    05-06 18.8 pt , 10.5 ast, 4.25 rbs, 35.4 minutes per
    Only number that dropped was ast’s everything else increased. Only thing i have to add is for all those people who point out w/o Nash the Suns are nothing. MVP ’should’ go to the player that cant be replaced by ANYONE else in the NBA. Nash can be replaced at least 10-15 other Point Guards in the NBA, where as Lebron, for what he does for his team, could only be replaced by at least 2-3 players. Kobe(maybe- shoot first player) Dirk (maybe - not a defender or pure passer) Wade (maybe - not as physical dominating from the forward/guard position). Nash won it that year for 2 reasons, LeBron was to young to win, and second the media had to justify Nash winning the year before so they “gave” it to him again..OUT…yes he has MVP’s, but he is doing nothing, NOTHING close to what JKidd and Stockon did in thier prime. PLus those two play Def, and made a DIFFERENCE ON THEIR TEAM(S)

76. November 8th, 2007 at 6:40 pm

    Chris says:

    i say he’s in. Might as well give him HOF, he’s never gonna get a ring

77. November 8th, 2007 at 6:42 pm

    Russ says:

    my bad, i think gp might have gotten a ring for being the waterboy for the heat one year. not sure.

78. November 8th, 2007 at 7:22 pm

    Tamilan says:

    You can’t compare Jason Kidd to Steve Nash. Steve Nash makes everyone in his team better, were as Kidd runs play mainly with the regulars (Carter, Jefferson)…And you can’t blame the success because of D’Antoni, because everyone knows it won’t be the same if he had another point guard in Nash’s place.

79. November 8th, 2007 at 7:29 pm

    Lee says:

    Can we stop with the crap of players being a product of a system .. Shaq is a product of a system (suround him with shooter to make it hard to double him), Houston doesn’t play like the Suns because Yao can’t run. It’s just good coaching to have a system for your superstars to shine in. How else are the Suns meant to play and be successful ?? Amare can beat all 5’s down the cort, Marion all 4’s and Barbosa everyone. Why would you play a different way ??

    Any way, Nash is IN, no questions asked.

80. November 8th, 2007 at 7:42 pm

    T.M.P.B.W.O.T.P. says:

    Russ — Payton wasn’t a “waterboy” on the ‘06 Heat. He was the 6th man (at worst, the 7th or 8th man) and hit some big shots in the playoffs that helped them win the title. Sure he wasn’t 1996 GP, but he wasn’t a bystander. That would be Jason Kapono. (Seriously, look it up. Kapono got NO BURN that year.)

81. November 8th, 2007 at 7:59 pm

    Russ says:

    maybe waterboy was a bit of an exaggeration, but it’s not far off. i’m sure the heat could have found about anyone to play half the game, score 6 points and hand out an assist and a half a game through the playoffs. no denying he was riding coattails chasing a ring. You are right about Kapono though, but it’s not like he will ever be in any HOF discussions.

    either way you get my point.

82. November 8th, 2007 at 8:11 pm

    duaneo says:

    Tamilan says:

    “You can’t compare Jason Kidd to Steve Nash. Steve Nash makes everyone in his team better, were as Kidd runs play mainly with the regulars (Carter, Jefferson)… ”

    Didn’t Bostjan Nachbar get a decent contract, basically because Kidd made him look good. What about Aaron Williams, he decent when he was playing with Kidd, then he gets shipped to Toronto and no one has heard of him since.

    I don’t consider Nash a HOFer unless he has a few more good seasons, or gets a ring, like I said in a prior post, but saying he’s better than Kidd, and that Kidd doesn’t make all of his teammates better, is crazy.

83. November 8th, 2007 at 8:16 pm

    Bron42 says:

    ah the argument all fell apart when i left for shot around lol…I warn you, this could be a long post.

    Tamilan: who has nash made better? name someone…I’m gonna assume your young because you would know, the rest of the suns stars (not role players like jones) stats are pretty much the same since nash got there. So he hasnt made anyone really better. Only his stats got better by the trade. Also, you would know, the nets made it farther BEFORE carter got there. So its not like kidd suddenly got good (ala nash) once the trade happened. Kidd had the nets in the finals twice before carter even came and has proven he can make bums good. The nets were second to last place with marbury and then in the finals the next year after they traded for kidd.Based on the fact that kidd has better stats, you can easily say that the suns would be better with him, or with chris paul, or with deron williams. So don’t hype nash tooo much there.

    Russ: My bringing up vin baker had nothing to do with nash. In other posts people were saying “oh well hes a mvp so hes a lock” I said well what if ANY guy has one good year and wins mvp. So if someone has 1 great year and 8 crappy years is he still in because he was MVP? Thats all that was about. Also you say oh nash is a pg so he’ll have turn overs. He didn’t just HAVE turn overs, he led ALL POINT GUARDS in turn overs. The only people ahead of him were two centers. So its not just because hes a point guard that hes turning it over if he does it more than ALL the other point guards. Kidd is easily a better PG than nash, but nash will get in just because of his two MVPs no matter if he deserved them or not (which he didn’t the one year. I brought up kidd because alot of you see to make it like nash is a top 5 all time pg when hes not even close. He’s had 3 good years, and about 6 average pg ones (16 points and 5 assists isnt really dominating anyone). Hes never been to the finals and has been surrounded by allstars his whole career and still hasnt gotten anywhere.

    Smitty: did you just call me a idiot?

    K.i.N.G: you actually prove MY point when u say no one else on the nets rebounds. So that pretty much means its kidd rebounding against the otehr team by himself and hes STILL getting 10 rebounds. And even before nash got to the suns and had amare, he wasnt a dominant rebounding threat on the mavs and they have NOOOO big man. So he should of had just as many rebounds and kidd does since they both had sub par bigs. The simple fact that kidd still averages 9 rebounds when hes going to the boards by himself says alot. AND those were his career stats. not just the nets, so he was rebounding way before he became a net. He didnt get all 100+ of his triple doubles last year ya kno.

    Final thought: 1) Kidd is better than nash overall.
    2) Nash is a product of the players you put around him and has NEVER turned a bad team around or taken a great team anywhere
    3) if your MVP 1 year your not a hall of fame lock
    4)MVP should go to the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER, not just the star on the top team. If lebron sprains and ankle a high school team can beat the cavs.
    5) ::Nash will be IN:::but its not the lock like some people think.
    Steve Nash - Two-time NBA MVP, four-time NBA All-Star. #3 career free throw pct. Not really dominanting since allstar games mean nothing.
    Jason Kidd - Seven-time All-Star, `95 CO-Rookie of the Year, Gold Medal winner 2000. #5 career assists per game. #8 career total assists.

    http://www.basslinespin.com/HallofFame.htm

84. November 8th, 2007 at 8:29 pm

    Russ says:

    bron,

    my point was…how many guys win MVP, and have 8 other crappy seasons? go look at that list of winners and find ONE who REMOTELY would fit that description. that’s not realistic. never happened, never will. vin baker was just one of the worst examples you could have used to make your point. i could see someone making maybe one all star team and sucking the rest of his career, but mvp is a whole ‘nother category. and again we are talking WHAT IF’s. he HAS the mvp’s can’t take them away.

    but if you want to start throwing what if’s out there….i’m sure IF steve nash played in the weak ass eastern conference he coulda got a team to the finals and got swept just like j kidd.

85. November 8th, 2007 at 8:33 pm

    Bron42 says:

    Well thats a big IF considering the most involved steve nash has been in the NBA finals was watchin the game from at home like you and me.

    It was a example, your reading way too much into the vin baker thing. Alot of people were saying how dirk is better than KG cuz dirk had mvp last year. completely ignoring that KG has a MVP too. Dirk wasn’t even the best person in the league the year he wont it so i was saying. IF dirk doesnt win another mvp, and doesn win a ring…is he still a lock to get in the HALL OF FAME just cuz of that one MVP. THats all, vin baker just came to mind cuz he was a allstar at one point and then fell off. no big deal.

86. November 8th, 2007 at 8:36 pm

    Bron42 says:

    I never tried to take the MVPs away from anyway. but in conversations like this your gonna have TONS of IFs. thats just how debates work.But it would help if alot more people based their IFs on stats and not just personal feelings or bias.

87. November 8th, 2007 at 8:55 pm

    dagwaller says:

    Doesn’t matter if Kidd is better than Nash. They’ll BOTH GET IN. No one cares about how much you love Jason Kidd - that was a different thread. And if you recall, pretty much everyone thought he was a lock to get in.

    It’s worth noting, though, that in Jason Kidd’s last year in Phoenix, the Suns didn’t even make the playoffs.

    The next year, they added an all-star - Amare - through the draft, and got to the first round again.

    The following season, they didn’t make the playoffs at all, and traded Stephon Marbury to the Knicks.

    Then Steve Nash got there. In three seasons, they had won exactly 2 playoff games, failing to even make it in two of the seasons. In that season, they posted the league’s best mark. Conference Finals that year. From no playoffs at all to Conference Finals.

    Conference Finalists the next year, as well as getting Most Improved Player from Boris Diaw. Which negates any arguments about Joe Johnson being helped a lot by Nash, because he obviously had a positive influence on Diaw.

    Then there was last year, when they lost to the eventual champions (Spurs) in the Conference Semi-Finals.

    I guess my point on all of that is that Steve Nash DID turn around a team, in a big way, and to suggest otherwise is ignorant. 2 playoff wins in three years to Conference Finals two years, Semis the other.

    Other than the two guys that you’re so down on, Bron, who else on the list of NBA MVPs isn’t going to the HOF? In other words, up until the guys that you have a bias against, is there anyone on the list that WON’T make the HOF? That seems like as close to a lock as possible. Although I guess we can make an exception for Vin Baker.

88. November 8th, 2007 at 9:06 pm

    Bron42 says:

    lol yes cuz I was really saying vin baker should be in the hall of fame. And your statement was goin so well until then.

    First off, Don’t LOVE jason kidd lol Don’t think Just cuz I work for the nets it really effect anything (hence me ripping carter about how hes a puss when he was mentioned for hall of fame)

    So let me get this straight..so because they had the one bad year when they didnt make the playoffs nash is a god send? the same thing happened with the spurs. They had a fluke year with david robinson and got time duncan. Before that they were in the playoffs still so its not like ducan inherited a crap ass team. Same with nash. He inherited a team that was already decent. the nets were in last place. Nash had guys who were already stars on the rise. Amare came into the league holding his own when marbury was there. Marion was already who he is now. So no he didn’t do much. The suns got knocked out by the spurs in the first round. Nashs goes to the suns and they get knocked out in the second round. My point is, nash didn’t really upgrade any of the guys. The team was already a good team. Nash has never been on a bad team or been with bad players. He can turn eddie house into a legit guy but he cant get anything else out of guys who are already good. Hence why guys like joe johnson and dirk blossomed after nash left their side. Nash will never win a ring because of that.

89. November 8th, 2007 at 9:16 pm

    Bron42 says:

    at the very most i’ll give you that nash was “the missing piece” but to say he is THE REASON why the suns are good now is retarded. Hes not KG,Wade,Kobe,Kidd, Duncan where he could carry a bad team by himself or really take over a game if you surrounded him with average players. So therefore he would be a product of the players you put around him, not them a product of him. Amare getting better and marion filling almost every catergory and team need are just as much the reason as nash’s passing and lack of defense.

90. November 8th, 2007 at 9:16 pm

    Knickhopeful says:

    #10
    If Vin Baker got MVP, he should make it to the Hall of Fame on the basis that it was an Act of God.

91. November 8th, 2007 at 9:34 pm

    Bron42 says:

    lol hey vin baker was nice for like a whole two days..he just had a drug problem which sadly is normal now days if u have money.

92. November 8th, 2007 at 9:58 pm

    dagwaller says:

    Bron, yea, I know that you were joking about Vin Baker.

    But let’s stop misunderstanding each other: I’m saying that Jason Kidd is immaterial to this conversation. I will say, though, that none of the guys you brought up could carry a bad team - when they went deep into the playoffs, or even made the playoffs at all, they had good teams. Wade before/without Shaq; Kobe after Shaq; KG ever since he lost his other options; Kidd only did it the once. TD has never been on a bad team, so we don’t know.

    Anyway, with regards to this debate, I don’t care about that stuff. I’m just using Kidd’s last year as a marker in terms of where the Suns were as a team. They didn’t make the playoffs, then he left. That team got better the next season, mostly because of Amare. Then they got worse, even WITH AMARE AND MATRIX. So they got rid of Marbury, and brought in Steve Nash. Again, this is a team point.

    So if Amare and Marion were doing their thing before, but not making the playoffs/not doing anything in the playoffs, what changed? STEVE NASH. He got there, they made it to the THIRD round, not the second round. Twice. With the second round visit being the year they lost to the eventual champion (Spurs). I don’t really think that you have a point when it comes to this - up until I called you on it, you were saying that he didn’t upgrade their team.

    Three years before: 2 playoff wins.
    Three years since: 25 wins.

    What’s left to ponder?

93. November 8th, 2007 at 10:06 pm

    Russ says:

    You really think that’s a big IF? You’re telling me steve nashes sun’s teams wouldn’t have KILLED the nets and celtics if they were in that same division/conference those years???? everyone knows those 2 or 3 years set the eastern conference back about 15 years! they eastern conference was the laughing stock of the league.

    it’s just like cleveland making the finals last year….a fluke.

    i understood what you were trying to say with baker, and agree with you in terms of saying one guys is better than another guy just based on one MVP award is absolutely crazy. Especially with the Kg example, because as you pointed out…he has an MVP himself. I just think you wording choice was poor and didn’t help your point much. happens when your trying to get the ideas out of your head asap. I took the OP’s original comment to be if you were good enough to win MVP, even just once, that the rest of your seasons would atleast be comparable…and therefore the whole body of work worthy. Not as him saying, oh he won and mvp, so he is the greatest player of all time and better than this player or that player.

    i believe his stats were ATLEAST 15 and 7 during the years where he actually played close to a full seasons worth of games and starters minutes(injuries, etc.). not the 16 and 5 you state. and while they are not dominant, i never said they were..nor did anyone say you had to be dominant to make it to the HOF. but while they are not dominant, they are far from pedestrian as well…as you will find it difficult to find other players who put up the same numbers over a CAREER and not just ONE season. everyone gets the biggest hard-on about the 20 and 8 that marbury and robertson put up…well nash is certaintly in that ball park. your taking about hitting about 2 more buckets a game and an assist here or there since he’s already at about 8 in assists(7.6). and that’s not putting up numbers on a junk team like marbury…i believe he has been in the playoffs every year in the league.

    barring injury, he’ll be top 20 in all time assists at the end of this season. he certaintly shows no signs of slowing down by posting 30+ points and 10 or more assists in 2 out of the last 3 games. so i think it would be safe to say he’ll still put up comparable numbers next year..which would place him top 10 all time in assists. he’ll pass people quickly because there are only 2 players ahead of him that are still active…kidd and marbury. also, if you look at the all time list…. out of the top 30, he has played the fewest games of anyone except for one person..and it was only by like 30 games. if he were to keep pace simply with his career averages (not the crazy numbers he put up the last 3 years) and play as many games as stockon did……he would be 3rd all time in assists.

    also, i believe robinson missed almost all of that season due to injury, and that’s why SA was able to get duncan. it’s not like he played and they still did that bad and it was just timmy who saved the day. i don’t believe anyone was injured the previous year for phoenix, the only change was nash that i know of.

94. November 8th, 2007 at 10:08 pm

    Bron42 says:

    Wade before shaq was in the second round. Kobe can single handedly get his team TO the playoffs, never said he’d win the whole thing. SAme with KG for the most part.Kidd may have did it once but he still did it. THey can all carry a team by themselves at least to the point or being relevant. Thats why they would be MVP before someone like nash who is only good if he has good people around him.

    That team had one bad season. one and they were in the playoffs the year before that so its not like they had to rebuild and then nash came to save the day. Your also ignoring them bringing in raja bell, guys like tim thomas, joe johnson, Q rich, etc..all played big parts in the turn around of the suns. Heck if joe johnson didnt like break his face in the playoffs the suns would of won. So no, he really didnt upgrade their team. Don’t get me wrong, nash is a good basketball player and will get in the hall of fame just because of his mvp status. I PERSONALLY (my own opinion after meeting him and seeing him play live tons of times) don’t think he is the difference maker that people wanna say he is. People on here talk about “what ifs” but how come everytime the suns lose people have excuses? oh, amare was suspended, or joe johnson got hurt etc…if nash is a top 5 all time pg like most of you want people to believe, one guy shouldnt really change anything. When amare was hurt, it was guys like marion and diaw who stepped up. Not nash. Nash is the motor of the suns for the most part but like people said, you could put chris paul in there, or a few other guards who can dish and score. And anyone who plays defense would be a upgrade. Thats why I brought up kidd. Nash is a product of the suns and the guys he has around him. I said in my very first post that hes IN lol so there was never any pondering. People just read one sentece on here and wanna jump to typing.
    Is nash a good pg..yes.
    Is he top 5 all time? no.
    Will he bein the hall of fame because he was a MVP. Yes. Would he make a bad team like the blazers suddenly a playoff team by himself like kobe or chris paul.No.

95. November 8th, 2007 at 10:21 pm

    dagwaller says:

    The guys that you list did all of those things, yea, but they didn’t carry the team a la LeBron this past year. None of them. That’s not the point of a team game.

    Yea. Everyone knows what powerhouses Q-Rich, Raja Bell, Tim Thomas and Joe Johnson were before they got to the Suns. And since then, the only one that has really blossomed is JJ. Why don’t you throw Marcus Banks and Jalen Rose in there, too?

    THERE WERE THREE SEASONS before Nash got there that they were either out of the playoffs or a TWO WIN team in the playoffs. That’s not a good team. That’s a below average team for two years, and a decent team the one that they made the playoffs. How can you even pretend that he wasn’t the difference maker? You could say that it was the system, except that he makes the system work. If you brought a player in that brought defense, that wouldn’t change anything, unless that player was just as good on offense as Nash, and there isn’t another player like him out there on offense.

    Also, the Blazers team is just as good as the Hornets team that Paul inherited, and just as good as the rest of the team that Kobe already has - and when Paul got there, they didn’t make the playoffs. Nor have the Lakers fared very well in the post-Shaq era. So stop pretending that those guys are freakin godsends.

96. November 8th, 2007 at 10:54 pm

    Bron42 says:

    THey all didn’t get to the finals ala lebron. but they all carried their team to at least the playoffs which is hard enough considering most decent teams dont even make it.

    Their not powerhouses WITH nash. but the fact is, they werent bums…well maybe tim thomas was. Raja was a legit player since his sixers days. Q rich became injury proned since he got round. JJ is and has been JJ. banks sucked as a celt and still sucks as a sun.

    So your not a good team if you make the playoffs? let alone in the west? They were a good team with pieces in place. There isn’t another player? we’ve already proved kidds scoring average is just as good as nash’s (Actually better) chris paul could, deron williams could, tony parker could. So lets not make it like steve nash broke the mold. Any passing PG could make that system work. Somoene like banks who is a defensive minded guard with no jump shot doesn’t really answer the need.

    And you say how the lakers havnt fared very well? Ya but the simple fact that kobe gets them there BY HIMSELF is alot more than nash who has a allstar at like every position but cant get to the finals. Just cuz their not the dynasty don’t pretend that kobe is some bum lol He almost beat the suns by himself lol. Kobe is wayyyyyyy more legit than nash. way way way.wayyy….

97. November 8th, 2007 at 11:15 pm

    dagwaller says:

    Nash has never had to carry his team. So we’re comparing apples to oranges, here.

    What WOULD you call a powerhouse? They’ve been in the top 4 in the NBA record wise since Nash got there, and I’d say being in the Conference Finals for the West makes you number 3 in the League, if not #2. So if the Suns haven’t been a powerhouse, who have?

    JJ wasn’t JJ before he got to the Suns. He wasn’t an All-star when he was with them, although he was on his way. None of those guys were anything more than role players, other than JJ. They’ve rounded into QUALITY role players, but that’s about it.

    And no, they weren’t a good team. Making the playoff in the West makes you good. They did that once in three years before Nash. That’s not good. That’s average at best. You’re telling me that a team that misses the playoffs for 2 out of 3 years is good, but that a team that makes the Conference Finals isn’t a powerhouse? Strange.

    No, “we” didn’t prove anything about their scoring average. “We” let it go that you put their career numbers up there, when we all know that Steve Nash didn’t get any burn his first four years in the L. Since then, he’s been below 14.5 ppg, with most seasons being around 17 ppg. Meanwhile, highest scoring average was 22 - last year, in case you think he might be dropping off - vs. Jason Kidd’s 18 ppg high. In other words, Nash is still playing at a high level, and when he needs to, can score higher than either Chris Paul (career high ppg 17.3 for a season) or Kidd. Williams averaged the same ppg as Nash last year. TP hasn’t averaged a season over 19 yet. So no, “we” didn’t prove anything - unless you want to count me just proving that Nash can score better than any of those guys.

    I will DEFINITELY admit that Kobe is a better player than Nash, and can take his team farther by himself. Unfortunately for Kobe, he plays a team sport, which is why Nash gets farther than he does in the playoffs.

98. November 9th, 2007 at 2:25 am

    wat_helmet says:

    lots of posts i cant be bothered reading… sorry

    but nash’s first mvp should’ve went to shaq, his second mvp should’ve went to kobe (sorry to say but averaging 35 points and scoring 81 points in a game, nobody’s gonna do that in a long long time… unless its kobe again)… the mvp that went to dirk should’ve been nash’s

    ahh im a bit of a homer… i believe kobe deserves one mvp in his career, before he declines

99. November 9th, 2007 at 3:53 am

    Chris says:

    Steve Nash sucks. Period. MVP - only cos he’s white, and the NBA has gone all PC about looking “ethnically diverse”. Chauncey Billups may have won the MVP had he been white. The only white PG in recent history who deserved the MVP was Jason Kidd in 2002.

100. November 9th, 2007 at 4:24 am

     K-Dizzle says:

     LOL! Someone please tell me Chris is kiddin. Just so you know, Mike Bibby and Delonte West aren’t white either….

     I was stayin outta this one cuz I knew who was gonna say what and Nash is such a lock, some of these arguments is just foolish.

     Bron and Dag, we did this months ago…..so
     Bron, you still a hater lol. Don’t preach, just know.
     Vin Baker…WTF? Everybody who’s posted on Dime knows you make weak-ass arguments against Nash and praise Kidd for pullin buffalo Bills in the finals.
     1) here’s a question for you? Is it better to get there and get blasted or is it better to actually give the champs-to-be a series?
     2) Kidd’s a better rebounder and defender; Nash is a better shooter. Who cares?
     Why you keep comparin the two? Nobody does but you. Let it go. They both gettin in.
     3) Kidd is in the East, Nash plays out west - nuff said
     4) Nash was an all-star before Phoenix. Why you give props to Kidd for doin jack with good Nets teams, but you criticize Nash for doin jack with good Suns teams
     5) The “Missing Piece” = “The Reason”
     and Smity did call you an idiot….

101. November 9th, 2007 at 7:58 am

     DOC says:

     some people just suck off certain players. When AI was in Philly he damn near led the league in turnovers every year. Nobody has the ball more than Nash. He dribbles the air out the rock till somebody gets open or he shoots it. TP Kidd and them give the rock to people and let them go to work. Aint nobody like that on the suns when they get it they either shooting or dunking

102. November 9th, 2007 at 8:47 am

     Celts Fan says:

     i think Bron’s point on Vin Baker was kinda on point. The thing is, people forget he was making the max before he started hitting the hooch, so someone obviously (and wrongly) thought he could have been a potential HOF’er had he stayed clean and sober. Good old Vin and Tonic…

103. November 9th, 2007 at 8:48 am

     Celts Fan says:

     **let me also clarify that those are the same kind of people that thought Olawakandi and Bogut first overall was a good thing. No one’s saying they’re smart, but someone in NBA circles thought that…

104. November 9th, 2007 at 9:11 am

     Ian says:

     bronnnn
     why??? stop comparing players ist either in or out

     david was the mvp 95 not the dream
     just check the numbers and check the team wins
     oh btw check the supporting casts
     david had to do more for his team
     just look at his first season spurs win 20 they get david win 50-60 all the time david is there. he gets injured one season JUST HIM and the spurs win 20.
     another thing i want to know is did david just have one fluke season??

     i love your comparisons yao to bradley and now david to someone like vin baker

     u r funny k-dizzle and smitty are right
     whoever says nash is out must really hate him there is NO way he stays out. kidd went to the finals twice true but me and 4 of my friends coulda won the east those seasons. nash is better shooting just as good passing and more clutch than kidd is u wanna compare.
     nash took an 7-8th seed team that is now one of the best three in the league. so they lose to the spurs doesnt everyone?

105. November 9th, 2007 at 12:44 pm

     Sacto J says:

     Dude’s in. Get over it. 2 MVP’s (there aren’t hardly any other point guards on the list at all, and he did it twice, arguably should have been a 3rd,) he’ll be tops all time assists, and facilitates offense like no one else but Kidd. Kidd has no hardware at all, but he’ll get in, so what’s the argument here?
     Dude’s in. Get over it…..

106. November 9th, 2007 at 1:50 pm

     Steve M says:

     Is there another 2 time MVP NOT in the HOF??? And there is NO shame in backing up Kevin Johnson and Jason Kidd early in his career. It probobly helped him develop into the player he is.

107. November 9th, 2007 at 2:59 pm

     Reed Ewing Frazier says:

     I think this thread will break the record for the most comments. Looking at some of the stats and the comments made in the last day I will have to reconsider and say he will need two more good seasons or a ring for a First time ballot HOF but he is in. Enough on the Jason Kidd argument that is like apples and oranges.

     Steve M- you are right there is no shame in backing up KJ and Kidd

     The only question now is will this future HOF lead the SUNS to a championship this season and the answer is NO!!!!

108. November 9th, 2007 at 3:14 pm

     RealTruth says:

     OUT the HOF is for true game changers. Run, pass, make some big shots, thats been done. Thats why they don’t call it the Hall of Good.

109. November 9th, 2007 at 5:05 pm

     Steve M says:

     Dave says:

     OUT!!

     Can we finally correct the ridiculous situation where two of the most undeserved MVPs in the history of sport were given out, by keeping this ‘no-defense-playing, gravy-training-better-teammates’ person out of the HOF?

     Hey Dave, Name me another HOF’r who didn’t, at some point in his career, not play with at least another all-star. I hate that f**king argument that “he played with other great players”. EVERYONE HOF’r WITH A RING HAS!!! Micheal had Scottie, Magic had Kareem and Worthy, Malone had Stockton, Chamberlin had West, Bird had McHale and Parish. Every Great player that has won in the NBA had other great/All-Star players along side him. So STFU about discrediting Nash’s accomplishments because he has had good talent around him!

110. November 9th, 2007 at 5:08 pm

     regrok says:

     is kevin johnson in?…once KJ gets in then we can start talking about Nash!!..compare the numbers

111. November 9th, 2007 at 5:21 pm

     dagwaller says:

     Dave: Did you miss the part where Steve Nash turned a non playoff team into one of the premier teams in the League? Not dominant?

     Someone said that the Kings were the ones that started the uptempo trend, not the Suns. Well, right after the Kings were the Mavs, who solidified it as not just a fluke, one team style of play, but into a trend. Nash was on that team. Then he took his style to another team, and turned THEM into bona fide contenders.

     And before anyone continues on that “Kings started it” thread, keep in mind that there’s always going to be a team that scores more than anyone else; but before Nash came along, there was really only one team that was successful at running and gunning. When you look around the League now, there’s a dozen or more teams that really try to go out and do that. You have 2 of Nash’s teams to thank for that.

     In short, he’s been dominant as the leader of a great team, and he helped change the league (for the better, I might add, instead of that iso bs that other players from the draft classes around his helped create) by showing that uptempo teams could be successful. That’s IN ADDITION to his individual stats.

112. November 9th, 2007 at 5:41 pm

     Dave says:

     Sorry, you Nash defenders (Steve M & dagwaller).

     Steve, I don’t have a problem with a HOF candidate playing alongside another All-Star (or several All-Stars). My point of contention is that if that player is bound for the HOF, he will be better, or at the very least on par, with the other superior players on his squads. That is simply not the case with Nash, as you cannot make the case — especially in 2005, when he “won” his first MVP — that Nash was the best or even second best player on his team. Can you say that about virtually any of the players you named? Come on — just admit it — Nash doesn’t belong in the Hall.

     dagwaller, I have always had a problem with people saying or intimating that Nash singlehandedly “turned his team around” during the 2005 season. A look at the stats will show that other members of the team had a lot to do with the turnaround as well. I don’t like the fact that Nash gets the lion’s share of the praise for the team’s record, as if he put the team on his back and carried them. He has never done that in his career, and indeed, he doesn’t have the ability to do so. He can facilitate, get people involved, and create a fast-paced, entertaining game, but he has never been a dominant player. Sorry to bring reality to you.

113. November 10th, 2007 at 2:57 am

     dagwaller says:

     Dave, I appreciate you bringing reality to all of us. Without you, all of the voters might make the mistake of voting him MVP. And we would probably think that he would make the HOF. THANK YOU! PHEW! That was close.

     I mean, you makin generalizations has saved me. Wow. Close.

     Good thing you told us some facts to take away from the history of NBA playoffs. You’re right. He didn’t take a non-playoff team to the Conference Finals. Otherwise, he WOULD BE DOMINANT.

     And yeah, he WOULD have to be better than his teammates. The same guys that didn’t win more than 2 playoff games in two years, or 2 in three, in Marion’s case. As Bron has pointed out, those guys were “doing their thing” (not winning games) before Nash got there. Good point. Or non-point, since you’re just asserting bullshit? Yes, those players had “just as much to do” with turning the team around. Coincidence that Nash arrived then? I don’t think so. Maybe if they dropped off since that year, but they haven’t. So obviously, whatever he brought was MORE THAN COINCIDENCE.

     But I thank you for bringing reality to me. It was close. But after 100 posts, you (thankfully) brought reality to me. Otherwise, I would be forced to agree with everyone but a biased (Bron) or racist (dank) observer. YOU DA MAN! THANKS!

114. November 10th, 2007 at 5:20 am

     K-Dizzle says:

     What Dagwaller said and I hope you Haters actually watched tonight’s Suns-Heat game. Dave, your arguments are embarrassin. Go watch some games before you throw out generic shit like you did. Did you even read the previous posts? Go away, hater…and watch some games

115. November 10th, 2007 at 10:11 am

     Ian says:

     all you need to get in are the 2 back to back mvps which he deserved. btw he did turn a nonplayoff team into contenders and that was ALL him the others where there already.

     btw someone made a good point using stupid arguments like he shouldnt be in because he has other allstars with him
     thats the dumbest team i have ever heard
     then richmond should go in ahead of jordan and garnett ahead of duncan?

116. November 10th, 2007 at 11:55 am

     K-Dizzle says:

     That’s your problem, Dave. You can watch him carry his team, single-handedly win the game at crunch time, read on heat players sayin they had the game till Nash took over and still keep the blinders on. I’m not a Suns fan, even a Nash fan; I claim the Lakers and I only wish Nash was on my squad. I appreciate team ball and point guards who facilitate team ball. Nash has been the best point guard since Magic, Stock, Isiah, KJ, Hardaway, Kidd. Haters like you gimme no choice but to watch closely to see if the hate is warranted. So Shaq deserves the MVP in ‘05? Have you even heard of Dwayne Wade? but you think Shaq deserved it? Great argument. The award is called Most Valuable Player, not most dominant player otherwise Kobe would always win. You ever seen a dominant point guard since Magic? Great argument.
     Do us all a favor and find the quote where Nash was whining about not winning the MVP. The dude brought his WHOLE team up on the stage with him the first time and has genuine humility about his place in history, but since you’ve “heard” Nash “whining” about not winning the mvp, please post the quote so we can see how “selfish” Nash is. I won’t be holdin my breath

117. November 10th, 2007 at 2:29 pm

     Dave says:

     K-Dizzle:

     I wasn’t referring to Nash whining, I was talking about those who blindly support him. From the accounts I’ve seen, Nash is a really good guy and my views on this topic are not colored by a personal dislike for him at all.

     This is my last take: this debate has been a healthy one, with a variety of opinions expressed. There is a very sharp division between those who feel that Nash is deserving of the honors that have been given to him, and those who don’t. I refer you to an interesting article titled, “Steve Nash = Worst NBA MVP of all Time.” Not that such an article is definitive, but it shows that his being named MVP was certainly not without controversy. For the vast majority of the past MVPs, there has been much less debate, and the worthiness and credentials of the winner have rarely been so openly questioned.

     Those who feel that there should be no debate, and that Nash has clearly established himself as deserving of the awards, usually fall back on calling people “haters” who disagree with them. I’m not name-calling; just merely pointing out that though Nash is a standout player who is a definite asset to his team, in totality he is not a HOF-caliber player. I also feel that his being given the MVP — twice!!! — has significantly devalued that award.

     But that’s my opinion. That’s what we come here to voice, right? In case you, or anyone else, is interested in reading the article that I referenced above, it is at:
     http://www.sportscolumn.com/story/2005/5/10/14133/0950.

118. November 13th, 2007 at 11:21 am

     2 Easy says:

     Wat ive read here is a lot of stat quoting and Im sorry to say that stats dont always tell the whole story. I thank everyone who went out and researched this info but on the real statistics dont always reflect the player and sometimes they take away from their legacy. THat being said I kno Kidd on the Suns would be bananas but uve gotta consider that the shots Nash hits to open the lanes for his passes wouldnt be hit as consistently as Kidd and then in the clutch who are u left wit? Raja= set shooter. Marion= whoa. Mare’s improvin his shot so in time he might be the dude but for now if Kidd was on the team he’d definately have to hit the gym to improve his shot a tad. Now the 1st year Nash won the MVP I kno the controversy about it goin to Shaq but I think people forget the turnaround that the Suns had compared to the heat. The were gonna be nice had Shaq not gotten there, championship caliber I doubt but wit Dwade. Nash deserved it that year and shoulda have won. The 2nd year the main reason he won was because there was no Amare and everyone around him had career years. That wasnt all due to Nash, Mare left a whole so they all stepped up but Nash did his part. Kobe prolly shoulda won but they’ll never give MVP to a player on a team below 5th. Now Nash got his dap but Kidd got completely ignored back to back years for TImmy. Now I believe the 1st year he shoulda won hands down and the next year was Timmy’s but thats just me. Long story short, Nash has improved his play year by year but his averages wont reflect that yet. He needs a tad more time if you guys want his averages to be higher cause in Dallas he was Allstar worthy not HOF worthy so his numbers reflect that. I say he should be in as long as his career finishes this way but a championship or another MVP would solidify his place.
     P.S lets not forget the Suns were 1 hectic nose bleed and 1 body check away from the finals last year people

119. November 14th, 2007 at 9:32 am

     whogry says:

     First of all,IMHO, All star…All NBA appearances and MVP should be never taken into considerations when judging how good a player is.Although they do give an idea of how good a player is it isn’t the end all proof of any discussion.

     All stars appearances is more or less a popularity contest and offence and/or stats dependent more than anything else.Remember Vinsanity was the top vote getter for two consecutive seasons and he still gets selected as the starter.That takes care of popularity, then the stats…. remember last year when Mehmet Okur(Mann…I seriously had to look up the Teams/Roster page to find his name,all I could remember was Memo) no kidding.. was chosen over Camby.Just because he can jack some threes and score better than Camby doesn’t make him a better center.Just look at the voting system for Christ’s sake.You choose a C,2 forwards and 2 guards.That’s how you end up with either VC,Wade and agent0 as your starting backcourt and KG and TD as your Forwards and the likes of Kidd,Melo,Artest,Prince get left behind.Also Magic missed a year of allstar festivities because the fans didn’t vote for him.THATS JUST WRONG…..Shaq gets voted as a starter even though he basically didn’t play at all…….THATS JUST FUCKED UP.

     The MVP is even more full of shit again IMHO…LOL.As many have pointed out about Dream not winning,Nash winning too much,Shaq not winning ETC. The thing is you/the selectors have to define the MVP first.If you are going to the by/to the letter rule(stern rule) no one outside TD and Kobe should be even in discussion because TD is better than KG,Irk Nodiski etc and Kobe is better than Wade,lebron etc. So, if you are going to give it to the best player on the best team, again Duncan will run out of trophy spaces.Or if you go by the player that means most to the team route why didn’t Kobe(all though I hate the guy) didn’t win it even though he dropped 35+ per season and TOOK (not squeaked in)a mediocre and injury depleted at best team to the playoffs dropping 144 points in 7 quarters while torching the rest of the league.Case can be made for Pippen and Kidd in their respective years.

     As for the all NBA teams….Amare best Center,he’s not even a real Center dammit…Larry Hughes All Defensive…enough said.

     So by that I conclude that Nash’s current MVP’s and All Star/All NBA don’t count shit unless he carries on at the same level for at least another 3 years,takes his team to a competetive finals or wins it all.

120. November 14th, 2007 at 2:09 pm

     nikko says:

     one dimensional? Yeah, all he can do is pass. He can’t shoot or penetrate, I mean this guy has no affect on the game when he’s on the floor. Getting in “just cuz of the mvps” ?? That’s bullshit!! Since when did winning two mvps mean you might be good enough to be considered to be in the HOF? DUMBA$$

121. November 14th, 2007 at 2:47 pm

     dagwaller says:

     Whogry, what you’re saying doesn’t make any sense. If you’re talking about, All-Star appearances, then yes, you have a point. But with regards to All-NBA teams and MVPs, you’re getting either A.) the best player at his position, and B.) the Most Valuable Player in the LEAGUE.

     The fact that you had to look up Mehmet Okur’s name, and that you thought that Artest and Prince should have made an all-NBA team in the last few years (or ever in their careers, for that matter) says a lot about how much you know.

     Amare plays center for his team. Just because your concept of center doesn’t line up with an NBA coach and about a hundred professional sports writers from around the nation doesn’t mean that he’s not a center.

122. November 15th, 2007 at 8:26 am

     whogry says:

     Dagwaller,That’s EXACTLY what I mean, ALL NBA should be best player at their respective position.Everyone is subject to their own opinion but in my books Amare is C only because he HAS to play that position for his team’s game plan and overall success.As for the “hundred professional sports writers”… these are the same guys that vote for Keith Van Horn for ROY and don’t even get me started on the P.J Brown for MVP.These so-called professionals are too smitten with highlights, box scores and offence/entertainment to see what really matters.MVP’s are completely subjective and I am not saying it should be so and so.Just be consistent in your selections and don’t go awarding it like judges in a (Bad)Boxing match.

     I had to look up Memo’s real name because I simply forgot and couldn’t remember his name at the time I was typing.Oh….and maybe it’s because that’s how much I care about him and his game(All star my ass).And…..This is the worst part about about discussions PLEASE READ CAREFULLY BEFORE MAKING YOURSELF LOOK LIKE AN ASS.I will say it again,I would take Artest,Prince over Caron Butler any day of the week……..in a ALL STAR GAME.Seriously man… I have even separated the paragraphs for easier reading in my previous post, just look carefully.Oh and this shows me how much you can concentrate without jumping from one paragraph to another.

     Lastly if All NBA teams were completely left for the Coaches to choose from I am sure Amare will not be the best Center and That Hasselhoff listening choker would not be selected before Duncan and KG.Personally I will take Yao Ming over Amare or Duncan if everybody just acknowledges that he’s a Center and not a forward.Look at it this way Amare is not a Center the same way Marion is not a PF and Eminen is not black.

123. November 15th, 2007 at 12:52 pm

     dagwaller says:

     Three things. Thank you very much for separating your well constructed arguments in paragraph form for me.

     Why would you even bring up the All-NBA team and not even talk about it, other than to say that Amare isn’t a center? It seemed like the whole weight of your argument was based on the fact that All-star games shouldn’t carry much weight (no argument there), nor should All-NBA or MVP. Except that you didn’t even make a point about All-NBA, and your point on MVP was just that sometimes they get it wrong. Except that every MVP ever voted was eventually voted into the HOF - I’d say that that’s a pretty damn good indicator.

     Finally, you’re right, those voters are idiots. That’s why they get paid to write for huge publications, while we, the guys that REALLY know what’s going on, post online. Maybe you should just take your stuff to Sports Illustrated or something! Then you’d be able to tell all of them who should be MVP!

     I do agree with you, though, that Yao is better than Amare.

124. November 15th, 2007 at 3:51 pm

     ldawg23 says:

     im SO tired of people not sharing the SUNS success with the other players AND COACHES on the staff…

     Amare was JUST turning into a beast when Nash showed up. How many of prep-to-pros had a good rookie or second year, NOT NAMED LEBRON???? Nash his getting credit ofr making STAT a beast. He was young. Its like taking for turning a girl into a sex freak. She always was one, you jusst didnt no it.

     The coach came in and brought a style that fit, FIT what he had.

     They went out and got OTHER players, that also fit that system. Nash cant play D, they knew that before hand and brought in Bell. JJ was versital before nash got there, just the celtics didnt give him much of a chance to prove it….

     Basically it was a perfect storm of everything coming together for the SUNS…I think WHY so SO so many people hate on Nash is becuase he GETS all the credit for it. Nash didnt do anything BIGGER or BETTER than Kidd did in the East with the Nets the year they went to Finals.

     Nash got OVER HYPED,and could be replaced by at least 10-15 other players in the league and the suns would still be good. Can you say that about KOBE, LBJ23, Wade..NOPE…

     So yes i THINK he should be out, but he WILL get in for getting to much credit…

125. November 16th, 2007 at 6:59 am

     whogry says:

     ldawg23……My man.Very well said and exactly my view on Nash as well.I have to finally admit though that he will get in the HOF because of the weight of his two MVP’s.

     dagawaller the reason I don’t talk about the All NBA teams is as I have said all ready AMARE, LARRY HUGHES and DIRK NOWITZKI.If you ignore their stats they are not all they are hyped up to be.I would take Elton Brand over Nowitzki any day.Larry hughes is nothing but successful at getting risky steals.He’s not even the best defender on his team for crying out loud,that would be Eric Snow,yeah he’s old and lost some steps but still he’s the better at staying in front of people.

     Call me old school but I only watch the games and see what players are doing during a game.That’s all I need to see how good a player is.I don’t need media voted MVP’s,all stars all Nba and STATS force fed to me to see what’s what.To keep it simple if you were to just look at stats, unless you are stats freak or fantasy expert,you couldn’t tell a difference between the stats of MJ and Kobe,Wade,Lebron,A.I,T-Mac etc…..Of course you don’t need stats to tell who’s better.

126. November 16th, 2007 at 12:10 pm

     dagwaller says:

     Whogry, I definitely see your point in that last paragraph. Stats aren’t the end all be all, you are 100 percent right.

     But Steve Nash only really led the league in one category the last few years - assists. I’m not saying that his numbers are what get him in. Furthermore, I don’t think that the numbers are what make All-NBA teams.

     Why are you even talking about Larry Hughes?! He never even made an all-NBA team. Dirk and Elton are on the same level, I think, in terms of “who I would rather have on my team”, except that Dirk’s teams are always better than Brand’s. I like Brand, but he’s been on a good team exactly once in his career. Kind of like how you’d consider TD better than KG, because equal skill aside, TD’s always been on better teams.

     Oh, and ldawg, no, it wasn’t a perfect storm for the Suns. I already went over the fact that the same team didn’t do shit for three years, then became nasty the same season Nash got there. Furthermore, I doubt there are many pgs that could replace Nash on the Suns. There’s not another player like him out there. Also, yes, you can replace LBJ, Kobe, Wade, etc…because it seems like there are about 5-10 players like them out there. Vince, JJ, PP, LBJ, Kobe, Wade…all of them are similar kinds of players, jacks-of-all-trades that are the main offensive option on their team. I’m not saying that LBJ is as replaceable as Vince or PP, but I’m not saying that the MVP of the League is replaceable, either.

127. November 17th, 2007 at 8:45 am

     whogry says:

     Dagwaller,I am in no way saying Nash is a definite hall of famer.His games is a more controlled version of street ball and I’ve never been a big fan of his.However since people put so much weight on mvp’s he will get in.The reason I agree with ldawg is he’s right.Nash NEEDS the Suns and the Suns NEED Nash.You put Nash in say Detroit and Billups in Suns.Both teams will get worse.Nash’s game is about running the break and in half court sets finding open shooters.You can drive and dish all day but if your teammates don’t hit their shots it’s useless.While there aren’t many PG’s out there who could replace Nash because Nash has very good court awareness,Kidd,CP3 and D-will can definitely replace him.
     I know Larry Hughes didn’t make any All-NBA teams he made the All-DEFENSIVE team.That’s just ludicrous, there are at the least a dozen more wing players waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy more deserving.

     Lastly when looking at players I want players to do what their positions require of them.A big who doesn’t control the paint is useless to me no matter how many 3’s he can drop.Also a point guard who doesn’t run the offence,get teammates involved and makes good decisions is useless no matter how many points scored or bigs posterized.That’s why I take Brand over Dirk and TD over KG.Actually if you were to compare skills alone KG has no other peer in the history of the game.He’s way athletic than TD,better shooter from anywhere,handles,passing,man to man defense and dunking,but, and it’s a big but,TD just owns the paint better than KG.He’s basically unstoppable with his back to the basket,commands double team and puts bigger pressure on opponent’s defence and is just a big time eraser of shots and makes impeccable defensive rotations.
     I am a big KG fan but I can’t be biased and say he’s better than TD.The only thing holding KG back was he’s unwillingness to be more physical and develop his post up game.Really sad because, in the last few years of his prime left it will never come.He’s the Barkley of the last decade neither a PF nor a SF but a freak athlete with unbelievable talent.

128. November 17th, 2007 at 5:41 pm

     dagwaller says:

     I think that we agree that Nash will get in. Whether he deserves it or not is an opinion thing, obviously, but I’m pretty sure that he’ll make it.

     That having been said, I feel you on your position by position evaluation. However, there are some teams that run different kinds of offense - does that mean that in the triangle, Kobe is the point guard? Or are you saying that there isn’t really a point guard at all on the team?

     Or if the Suns play without a center, they have two power forwards? Or two small forwards?

     Or if Dirk is the best shooter on his team, does that make him a shooting guard?

     And if Jason Kidd is the best rebounder on his team, does that make him a center?

     And if Steve Nash is the best passer AND shooter on his team, does that make him a point guard or a shooting guard?

     Over the last 20 years or so, there’ve been a lot of innovative players that blurred the lines between the traditional roles of their position. That’s why, I think, doing it the way they do is the most simple way to classify players: one C, one PF, one SF, one SG, and one PG.

129. November 20th, 2007 at 6:57 am

     whogry says:

     If you have watched the lakers play the last couple season, it can be said that Kobe is their whole backcourt.All Smush did was bring the ball across the line.

     The Suns play the way most teams like to play nowadays i.e. one big and four shooters/wing players etc.They don’t run post ups that much but Amare is still their Center kind of like Ben in Chicago but with completely reversed role.

     Dirk is not only the best shooter in Dallas but in the whole league.Besides, a SG’s job isn’t just to jack up shots.Dirk is a overgrown SF in the mold of Turkoglu from Orlando,typical European player.

     Kidd being the best rebounder means he’s surrounded by subpar bigs.

     Nash is a PG period.That’s like asking wether Shaq is a C or a PF.

     There’s no doubt there have multi-talented players, even beyond the 20 years you mentioned.OSCAR ROBERTSON……Hellooo?Average a tripple double FOR A WHOLE SEASON(sic).Nate Archibald lead the league in Points/game and Assist/game.Elgin Baylor a SF who was like a 5 inch shorter version of Shaq and absolutely unstoppable.Then there’s Bird,Magic, Jordan etc But the thing about these players are they were first and foremost good at what they were SUPPOSED to do and then they did some things that normally wouldn’t be associated with their positions.

     Sure, Magic filled in as Center in a Nba final in his rookie season, as if he had played Center his whole career and yes, Bird can play any position on the court but Magic is at his best when running the offence and dishing out no-look passes and Bird was a mix of Webber and Dirk who’s best while playing the forward spots.This is where I think the Nba and young players are getting it wrong.Of course it’s good to be versatile and have different skills and not be one dimensional but you have to first be good at what you are asked of and everything else is a bonus.

     A chick can cook the finest dishes and paint like Picasso but if she herself looks like a Picasso painting then I am hauling my ass for a hasty retreat, like Melo after a sucker punch.That’s my beef with players like Dirk and Okur, yeah he can shoot but he has no back to the basket moves.Also, he can rebound some but is a complete wuss on defence.Then the wing players, too many Harold Miners out there. like Miles,Outlaw,White,Gay.Seems like all these Mike wannabes watched about Mike was his highlights reel.Yeah, it’s nice to ocasionally pull off a nice dunk but,Geez,learn how to play the game first, or at least hit the rim from 3 point line.Then there’s the legion of shoot first and last PG’s who think a PG’s job is just to score points.

     In the Jordan-era Nba or the Golden years of Nba,it was accepted that a Big who can shoot well from at least 15 feet was a versatile big man or a wing player who can drive to the hoop and finish was a nice asset to a team.Foremost fundamentals were highly valued and blue collar work ethics was accepted as normal.Fast forward to todays Nba and very few players remain who can be called real basket ball players.Every GM nowadays seems to be enchanted by the almost mythical upside…….Can he shoot?No…Can he work within a team system?No… Can he Defend?Hell no……but he can run,jump and dunk and man does he have a great upside.

130. November 20th, 2007 at 7:46 am

     unsimplified says:

     i hate kidd vs nash debates. 90% of the time ppl compare due to their emotional likings towards either player. statistics is even more of a joke. what people dont realize is nba rule changes have diminished the role of centers (defensive 3 seconds), produced flashy high scoring games (allowing of zone defence), and most relevant to this thread, removed hand-checking. put players like nash and parker in the old days with hand checking would be a funny sight to see.
     anyone who thinks what nash did to suns is more spectacular than what kidd did to the nets 2001 shows how superficial their knowledge of basketball is. mvp back to back for nash? deserving? depends how much basketball you watched and what era you watch. hall of fame? lets just say if those higher powers are willing to dish 2 MVPs for nash they will give him just about anything.
     common misconceptions about kobe bryant is that he is the best individual player in the league. He might be, might be not depending on what you define a good player as. but without a doubt he is the deadliest offensive player.talentwise a player like lebron has much more growth potential as he has a huge advantage over kobe - the way he thinks as a player as evident in his court vision.

131. January 16th, 2008 at 12:28 am

     ff25 says:

     he gets waaaaay to much credit for matrix and amare! they were all stars before he go to phx!

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