Photo. Jonathan MannionAnyone who’s caught a Knicks broadcast knows Clyde Frazier’s “swishing and dishing” call, which coming from one of the greatest the game has ever seen, describes a big part of what makes an effective point guard in today’s NBA: Someone who can get in the lane and create. Out of all the positions, the Top-5 for this one is the most debated. Some can’t stand Nash’s poor defense; others can’t deal with J-Kidd’s shooting; some think Parker is wildly overrated, Baron is wildly underrated, and the Deron/CP combo is simply too young. Here’s my Top 10:
1. Steve Nash
2. Jason Kidd
3. Chris Paul
4. Deron Williams
5. Tony Parker
6. Chauncey Billups
7. Baron Davis
8. Gilbert Arenas
9. Jamaal Tinsley
10. Jose Calderon
The cutting room floor’s littered with Mo Williams, Ray Felton, Kirk Hinrich, Jason Terry, Sam Cassell, Stephon Marbury, Jameer Nelson, Andre Miller and Mike Bibby.
As recently as two weeks ago, I probably would have put Deron ahead of CP, but in Utah’s recent struggles I’ve seen some holes in his game that give Paul the nod. A lot of people I know (Spurs-haters) wouldn’t even have Tony Parker in the Top 10, let alone the Top 5, but how can you argue with three rings at age 25? With a Finals MVP? With the fact that when Tim Duncan is out injured, TP looks just as comfortable running the show and sharing go-to duties with Manu as he does when Duncan is in the lineup?
Personally I’m a bigger fan of Kidd than Nash because his defense is better, but I also want a point guard who can hit clutch shots and knock down threes, and Nash gets the edge there.
If Arenas seems a little low on here, it’s because it’s hard for me to call him an actual point guard. But that’s the position he plays, and his Capt. Jack Sparrow act puts him below the less-talented Chauncey Billups, because Billups is more of a distributor/defender.
I also had Mo Williams at the #10 spot just a few days ago, but after watching Jose Calderon play a few times recently, I’d take his “game manager” style over Mo’s Baby Arenas-like gunning.
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December 19th, 2007 at 8:53 am
djKianoosh says:
For me Jameer Nelson has to get up in the top 10. the kid can play, is a winner, and plays with heart.
December 19th, 2007 at 9:04 am
the_don_mega says:
J-Kidd is the best point guard of his era… hands down….
December 19th, 2007 at 9:13 am
Adrian Zapata says:
I’d go with Kidd at 1, and Nash at 2… also I’d have TJ Ford over Jose Calderon
December 19th, 2007 at 9:17 am
Mark says:
TJ Ford Anyone??
December 19th, 2007 at 9:34 am
Brown says:
Calderon is better than TJ Ford. Let’s please not start this debate again.
December 19th, 2007 at 9:44 am
Celts Fan says:
Calderon is definitely better than TJ Ford (as a pure pg anyway, I think we can all agree on that, right?) I’d put JKidd over Nash personally, but that’s every bit as close as the CP3/Deron debate.
Rajon Rondo can’t even get some cutting-room-floor love???
December 19th, 2007 at 9:47 am
YOUNGFED says:
This has to be the worst list ever how does calderon make the list I mean come on’.
1.)Kidd
2.)Arenas
3.)Nash
4.)Parker
5.)Billups
6.)Paul
7.)Williams
8.)Davis
9.)Tinsley
10.)Cassell
That’s what I see.
December 19th, 2007 at 9:56 am
Data says:
Why does everybody continue to hate on Jose’s game. The dude is a a legit PG. He deserves to be on the list. I think most of the people hating haven’t really seen him play. I think this list is pretty legit can’t go wrong with any of the top 5 leading your team. Just one issue with the list, where is Rafer it’s an outrage he didn’make it lol.
December 19th, 2007 at 9:56 am
bobby stew says:
I should see T.J. Ford’s name SOMEWHERE! This is ridiculous.
December 19th, 2007 at 9:57 am
Celts Fan says:
I disagree w/ a lot of the order on that list Youngfed, but the group you have is pretty much right on.
1.)Kidd
2.)Nash
3.)Paul
4.)Williams
5.)Arenas
6.)Parker
7.)Billups
8.)Davis (if he could stay consistently healthy, he’s #5 at worst and everyone else gets bumped down)
9.)Cassell
10.)Tinsley
December 19th, 2007 at 10:06 am
MSkittle says:
Although he is not a traditional point guard, Arenas should be higher.
December 19th, 2007 at 10:12 am
YOUNGFED says:
I here you Celts but Paul and williams haven’t done nearly as much as the other gaurds I placed before them. But atleast we do agree cassell’s gotta be in there he’s still killing at like 40. LOL.
December 19th, 2007 at 10:23 am
Dime Magazine says:
DJKianoosh -
I love the Philly bias for Jameer …
- PC
December 19th, 2007 at 10:27 am
Kyle aka "The Air Down There" says:
Good list. Where is Starbury in the Top 5 though? Just Kidding, LOL.
I agree with some of the posters Jose Calderon is the real deal. Every time I see him he does work. He has a wet jumper, gets his team involved and does not turn the rock over. He is a big durable guard too, something that TJ Ford isn’t.
December 19th, 2007 at 10:28 am
Celts Fan says:
Exactly! It’s a straight up crime he’s never been to an All Star game (or maybe only 1)
I tend to agree w/ you on the haven’t-done-enough-yet arguments, but in this case, they’ve done enough that I’m sold. I also lean more towards traditional PG’s in favor of a SG playing the 1 like a Gilbert (hence my ranking him lower than CP3 and Deron) though I won’t penalize him for that, I can’t put him over the great pure PGs (I think my top 4 all end up in Springfield when all’s said and done) I gotta give the guy his credit.
Data, people respect Jose’s game, he’s just not a top 10 pg. I’d kill to have him on my team, but he’s not a top 10 pg (though he’s definitely top 20)
December 19th, 2007 at 10:31 am
Celts Fan says:
*my top comment was referring to Cassell. He’s one of those guys that tended to fly under the main-stream radar, which is a shame since he’s a HOF talent w/ a winning resume and a history of improving EVERY team he goes to.
December 19th, 2007 at 10:33 am
Celts Fan says:
and Kanoosh, I love Jameer’s game too, he’s another “definitely not top 10, but definitely top 20″ types like Calderon
and yes Don Mega, JKidd is the best PG of this era. To me, he’s only behind Magic, Oscar, and (maybe) Isiah and Stockton for best all time.
December 19th, 2007 at 10:37 am
MD says:
Brown- you’re right, lets not start this debate again. TJ Ford is a better all around PG than Calderon - he can do more things offensively and defensively and his ceiling is much higher. Not hating on Calderon though - I love his game. Both Calderon and Ford should be in the top 10- definitely ahead of Tinsley.
December 19th, 2007 at 10:54 am
Brown says:
MD, we’re obviously not on the same page about Jose/TJ. I’m not even going to get into it. But I do agree with you on Tinsley. Durability has to count for something and he’s never been durable. I’m still waiting for him to get injured this year, cuz you know it’s coming at some point. That’s gotta be a knock on Ford as well though. Dude just can’t stay healthy.
December 19th, 2007 at 10:58 am
Kobeef says:
Hey Dime - you should take an office field trip to the “Fire Isiah Parade” today…that MUST be a first in NBA history. Gotta love Knicks fans.
From Si:
“fans who want Thomas gone from the basketball team plan to march through the streets surrounding Madison Square Garden on Wednesday carrying a huge pink slip “
December 19th, 2007 at 11:35 am
Tom says:
Calderon is the only player in the league with over 200 assists and an assist/turnover ratio over 5.0. He’s also the only player on that list with over 200 assists and an assist turnover ratio over 4.0. He’s at 5.83 and the next best is Nash with 3.19. That’s a big gap (although Nash has a lot more assists). Of the players on that list, the next best assist/turnover ratio is Billups at 3.39, but he only has 166 assists.
Of the players on the list, Calderon is second in assists per minute (after Nash), 6th in total assists (remember he shares minutes with Ford).
Based on those numbers, it’s hard to argue for anyone other than Nash and Calderon as the two best passers in the league. A guy like Kidd probably still deserves to be ahead of Calderon because of his rebounding, and maybe his lower scoring numbers move him behind guys like Paul, but for people to be arguing that he doesn’t belong on the list is absolutely crazy.
December 19th, 2007 at 11:42 am
YOUNGFED says:
Come on MD and Brown Tinsley is to the NBA what Skip-2-My-Lou was to And 1. He would murder TJ and Jose all in the same game. He’s an original playgroun legend.
December 19th, 2007 at 11:42 am
Celts Fan says:
You Raptor fans are crazy. Calderon AND TJ Ford in the top 10 MD? Are you friggin kidding? You can make stats say anything. Calderon is solid, but he’s not top 10 (though I’ll say again, he is top 20.) TJ Ford is barely top 50. You can’t even (credibly) argue TJ over any of the guys on the just missed the list list.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
Kudabeen says:
1. Baron Davis - Beast when healthy and he’s having a great year…It’s hard for me to look at match ups and say any other point guards and most shooting guards can match up to Baron. I know people will list others above him, but what is that really based on?
2. Chris Paul - Handle, D, Emotional Leader, Passing skill, and clutch all heart baller…
3. Steve Nash - Nash is the best setup guy in the league right now and Paul is a close second. Nash also is a great jump shooter. Lack of D and visible match up issues with the top two PGs puts him number 3. MVP is a team award…
4. Jason Kidd - He’s not the same, but he is still a playmaker and the best overall guard in the league when it comes to filling that stat sheet.
5. Deron Williams - Will be a lot higher within the next two years, but as much as people give him props for his D, it’s lacking. Since when has being a ‘Big’ guard counted as a boost in skill. Having said that this guy has tons of skill.
6. Tony Parker - THE BEST FINISHER in the league. Not the passer, shooter, or leader that some of the other guys are, but he is a Problem that is only 25 and will be featured even more as Duncan enters the twilight of his career.
7. Allen Iverson - The only reason I don’t have him higher is because I have him in my top five as a shooting guard, but Iverson, contrary to what Barkley thinks, is a very accomplished distributor. The numbers are there. He is a great scorer that creates opportunities for his team, but his flaw is that if they don’t show up, he takes over. That’s not a pure PG mentality and he’s not a pure PG. He’ s a pure menace to defenses.
8. Chauncey Billups - too clutch and in control not to have on the list. I don’t think of Chauncey as a point guard as much as I do a lead guard. He is just too steady down the stretch to leave.
9. Jamaal Tinsley - Mounds of talent, but lacks the focus and discipline to ever put it all together. He is having a great year. I put him in that Maurbury category. You just keep waiting for him to get “IT” and be that leader, but it’s not going to happen… I may catch flack, but I have ask myself with a lot of these NYC PGs (Telafair, Maurbury, Tinsley). Is it a New York state of Mind that makes it tough for them to be leaders on and off the court? Winning with the team should come first. I think NYC produces the best PGs as far as talent, but who was the last NYC PG to follow through on that talent in the NBA? Real Talk…
10. Andre Miller - A very good defender and all of his teammates say he makes the game easier. He is really underrated, because he never plays on great teams, but I respect his consistency.
My honorable mention is Rajon Rondo. He is on track to being on of the best match up PGs in the league. He really needs someone on his Ass though. He has the athleticism and skill to get to the basket, but he finishes soo soft. Once his aggression and confidence meets his talent he will be in the mix.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
Mark says:
Im not sayin that TJ is better than Jose but hes got to be at least on the cutting room floor along with Andre Miller who didnt get a mention! If Hinrich gets a mention these two must as well surely!!??
December 19th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
kowtz says:
I really don’t like this list… (forgive me, it’s a personal opinion, respect it, I will respect yours)
I FAVOR pass first PG’s rather than Shoot first… I consider them SG’s (Small Guards)… because if we include shoot first PG’s, then AI should be on top of that list…
So you could take Chauncy, BDiddy, Hibachi/Nacho, and maybe even the JET out of there…
Kidd has rebounds has poor outside shot, but not as poor as Nash’s rebounds which he makes up for his outside shot…
Question, who would you rather run your team? Nash or Kidd?
December 19th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Mark says:
Ok Andre is on there, fair play!
December 19th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Brown says:
I wouldn’t put TJ Ford on any top lists. I’ve never been a fan of his game, and I’ve made that clear in past posts. I don’t look at Calderon’s stats, just at how well his team plays when he’s running the show. He’s solid, if unspectacular, but he gets the job done in an extremely efficent way. He has a knack for knocking down shots at crucial times too.
Youngfed, being a playground legend has nothing to do with being a good PG. He may have the fancy moves, but how good is he at getting his teammates involved? Remember dude, the NBA ain’t about how good you are 1-on-1. Calling him an NBA legend has to be the most ridiculous comment I’ve heard in my life.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Gee ... Next time Imma call names says:
So what that let you know….
I got Kidd first. I don’t think I could but Arenas in there cause he ain’t really got a lot of burn this year. I like the list with active players. If I was going off just period whether they are playing or not then yea Arenas.
After the first 7 with the Kidd and Nash switch I am good with the rest …cept Arenas lol.
Good list though.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
Brown says:
I will admit though, Tinsley is having a great season. I just wouldn’t call him an NBA legend.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
davon says:
NO LOVE for TJ FORD????……not even an honorable mention??
December 19th, 2007 at 12:50 pm
Austin Burton says:
I forgot Ford as an honorable mention … Not trying to diss.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
Kudabeen says:
I have to say you guys are making great arguments for Calderon, but I just can’t put a guy on this list at this time until he is the definite lead guy who has the pressure of producing. For me the top 10 guys aren’t 1-2 punch guys. As great a talent Calderon is he is not a starter and doesn’t carry such expectations. He should have an opportunity to be that guy, but T.J. still creates havoc and is a match up problem for opposing guards.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
drewstar says:
for everyone hating on calderon..you guys are funny. dude avgs almost 8 asts per game when he came off the bench for half the year when tj wasnt out..and has by far the best ast/to ratio. cant believe everyones hating and saying hes not even top 10..only top 20? lmfao. im sure we’d all rather have andre miller, sam i am, mo williams, and jameer instead of jose calderon right? i mean for sure nash, kidd, paul, deron, tp, billups are top 6 PURE pgs for sure. and baron and arenas are the best scoring “pgs” if you want to call them that. but to hate on the dude and calling him only top 20? damn. btw..props to dime for recognizing calderon’s game. and with respect to TJ ford, havent been a fan of his game since he turns over the ball a lot and doesnt really run much of an offense from the pg position. only thing he does better than jose calderon is that hes even faster than him. and how is a barely 6 ft pg like TJ a defensive stopper that calderon isnt? LOL
December 19th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Alex "Robocop" Murphy says:
I just hope Paul/Williams/Felton turn out to be better than when Andre Miller/Steve Francis/Baron Davis came out in 1999. I mean Miller and Davis both played on that Olympic team that lost. So let’s not just judge Paul and Williams just yet. I want to see how their careers turn out 5 years from now.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
control says:
Jamaal Tinsley is way too high on the list, he shouldnt be on the list at all.
Jose seems kind of high, but I think he probably deserves it (Im a Toronto fan). Guy is as pure (plays his position and only his position, not skilled) of a point guard as Nash, just not as versatile in other areas.
Is even Arenas a point guard?
The list is good, but doesnt seem to represent the levels of skill seperating some of the positions. Nash and Kidd are light years above everybody on that list. Chris Paul, Deron Williams and a healthy Baron Davis(when healthy) are all quite a bit better than the others. Chauncy, Tony, Gilbert, Jose are a step above the rest. The rest of the mentions are good, but not great.
Nashs defense isnt as bad as people seem to whine about, he doesnt compromise his position as much as most other point guards and his help defense is pretty damn good. AI is just one example of a point guard who is more of a liability on defense than Nash.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Boyez says:
Why is williams not ahead of paul……..total disgrace
December 19th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
Kudabeen says:
I hate that argument about Defense. Playing the passing lanes and forcing turnovers is considered defense the last time I checked. Being able to physically bang on D has nothing to do with it. Bowen is a great defender because of his activity and making it hard for players and teams to get comfortable. AI is the same type of defender, without the size. This is a guy that ignited wins on the defensive end. We try so hard to deny him that, because he is a great scorer.
Somebody was like (I think it was Barkley) only reason why AI gets steals is because he gambles alot…WTF! so we shouldn’t pay tribute to the defensive propensity of a shot blocker, because the only reason why a great shot blocker gets so many blocks is because they contest shots. Stop hating on AI’s D. No he’s not and will never be a physical defender, but if you disrupt the other teams offense and if you are forcing turnovers and converting them into easy opportunities for your team, then in my book your D is respected. Nash has great coordination and he stays in front of most people, but he doesn’t stop anyone and he doesn’t force turnovers…That’s how I see it. Not that he is a bad defender, but his defense doesn’t deserve mention.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
girlybballluver says:
Even though Kidd has a lost a step, he is still the best point guard in the league. Just because his J shot is rocky, doesn’t mean Nash is better. Nash is useful on one side of the floor only. (I don’t even know why he bothers to run to the other side of the court, he should just wait at half court). Kidd is a walking triple double for Pete’s sake!! So what Nash can shoot/score, that’s not his role on the suns. Usually if he hits the 30+ mark they lose.
Youngfed: Arenas the 2nd best point guard in the league?…You can’t be serious.
**I’m a huge fan of both Parker and Paul, can you imagine how they’ll be killin’ when they’re in their prime?**
December 19th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
control says:
girly, do you mean Paul and Williams? I think Parker is in or past his prime.
Nash is the best btw, no one can setup his teammates as good as Nash…but Kidd is still amazing, it would be like comparing Nash rated 100 out of 100 and Kidd being 99 out of 100
December 19th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
dagwaller says:
Perfect list, considering the last half of last year and the first half of this year. Nash is 1, Kidd is 2, Paul Williams and Parker are pretty much inseparable at that spot, Chauncey’s been holding a really good team down for a while now, Baron Davis comes on real strong for 7, Arenas if you all recall a year ago at this time was leading the best team in the east, then Tinsley and Jose having the season of their lives. Pretty much perfect for this season.
Up til this season, I would’ve made a bigger argument for Kirk Hinrich, but this season he’s been disappointing on a disappointing team.
Cassell’s too old now, not really doing much.
Jameer may end up higher on this list, but he’s still not there.
Andre Miller should be higher up, if you were going to take off Gilbert for being injured or Tinsley for not really having proved himself yet.
Isn’t JET coming off the bench? Are we saying that he’s better than Devin Harris? Not disagreeing, just wondering.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
K-Dizzle says:
I like Kudabeen’s list….up to number 9. I think Nash and Kidd are 1 and 1a on any given day but I feel like when Baron’s healthy, he’s better than both. He has all their strengths and none of their weaknesses. Dude is like the Blade of the league lol. BD plays better defense than Nash and is equal to Kidd, rebounds better than Nash and shoots it better than Kidd.
That being said, I have to disagree with the statement that NYC points are the best talent cuz 4 of the top 10 are west coast dudes as well as 3 of the honorable mentions.
Boyez- williams is behind paul because the team ain’t winning and like austin said, he’s shown holes in his game that you don’t notice when they were rollin. Paul’s more consistent.
Whoever said TJ might not be top 50 needs to just stop. There are 30 NBA teams and only 10-15 starting pgs are legitamately better than Ford.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
dagwaller says:
Control, I’ve been with you on everything you’ve posted so far, but Parker’s only 25 - hardly his prime. That’s the point - if he’s this good this early, imagine once he gets stronger and even smarter.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
Kudabeen says:
I hear you K-dizzle on the NYC PG thing, but you are kinda proving my point. I’m saying on talent and hype NYC always have a fresh PG product that gets put in the hype machine. This is warranted hype though, because guys like Maurbury and Tinsley posses all the skills in the world at that position, but it’s a mental thing, where being a productive leader on the team is secondary, whereas you have guys from other regions that put up the numbers and come into the League to show and prove. I’m just saying talent wise these guys aren’t coming through in the end… But I hear you
December 19th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
control says:
dag,
Oh yeah, Parker is only 25…for some reason I was thinking he was 28 (guy been in league long enough). He is probably in his prime, and will be in his prime for another 2-4 years…I wouldnt say that he has peaked, but he definately wont get a WHOLE lot better.
His game is based on his paint penetration, if he improves on his playmaking without penetrating, he could probably maybe be 3rd best pg (next to Kidd and Nash).
December 19th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
dagwaller says:
Yea, I knew someone put it perfectly earlier, and it turned out to be you, control - it’s pretty well tiered right now. Nash and Kidd on top, perhaps fittingly both great distributors. Then the young bucks all right there, waiting for someone to fall off to claim those top two spots. Then you get three scoring PGs that have been around for a few years (or longer, in Chauncey’s case) in Chauncey, Baron, and Gilbert. Then at the end, you get the kind of rotating door, because even though this year those two guys (Calderon and Tinsley) are doing great, Hinrich’s having an off year and you know that Nelson is going to get better…
December 19th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
Stoned_Raider says:
C’mon Kirk Hinrich is way better than Calderon and Tinsley, and u know he’s gunna bounce back from the slow start hes having. First 8 are good though, except Kidd is easily number one. Gots the triple double threat every night, and can play D
December 19th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
dagwaller says:
If Kidd played SG or SF, I’d think getting a triple double every night while defending well was worth putting him at number 1 for. I guess that’s why Lebron is number one. PGs are supposed to set the tempo of the game, and, as a guard, score if need be. Who else does that better than Nash? No one. A/TO ratios are pretty important for that, and as Tom noted before, Nash and Calderon are heads and shoulders above EVERYONE. Nash is also one of the most efficient players in the league (ninth). He’s also not a TERRIBLE rebounder, posting about 4 a game.
Again, Jason Kidd has more triple doubles than anyone in the League, but he has fewer double doubles (more important from a PG perspective - Scoring + Assists) than Nash. Think about it - he might get 5 more boards a game than Nash, but Nash scores about 10 points more a game. 5 extra boards from your PG doesn’t always equate to 10 extra points. Factor in the fact that Nash gets more assists, and that right there is a better point guard.
You’re right, though - Hinrich is still young and will inevitably bounce back from this slow start.
December 19th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
Celts Fan says:
I almost had Hinrich as my #10, but his play this year bumped him off. If this was done last summer instead of now, he’d be there. I still think he’ll rebound, but he’s playing piss poor right now, so I can’t put him in the top 10.
December 19th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
doc says:
I’d take Jose off for miller and tinsley shaky to but cassell is old and nobody else is stepping up.
December 19th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
girlybballluver says:
Ummmm Parker past his prime? Not even close dude.
Paul is more of a pure point guard than Williams. Williams is just big, and his handle is too shaky for a PG.
December 19th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
Smooth says:
baron davis is above parker man
December 19th, 2007 at 6:49 pm
dagwaller says:
Yea, if we’re going off of who’s best now, Cassell and Hinrich don’t make it, and (weirdly) Tinsley and Calderon do. Miller would be a good addition to the list - I’d probably put him at 11, and if/when Tinsley gets hurt, shot, or does something dumb, or if/when Calderon returns to Earth (probably because of TJ being out or something weird happenening with minutes), he’d go up to 10.
I really don’t like the Spurs in general, but I have to give some respect to Tony Parker. Baron Davis is a dominant player, but he still has to show his health, whether or not he can go a whole season without just jacking up 3s, and whether or not he can lead a winning team. I don’t think that he’s QUITE up there yet, although I wouldn’t have a problem putting him ahead of Chauncey Billups. It’s just that TP has already won 3 rings and was the Finals MVP. Baron might have more talent, but TP uses his seemingly a lot better…
December 19th, 2007 at 7:45 pm
kevin says:
are ya’ll smokin crack??? there are not 8 point guards better than gil. yall must be trippin hard core. ya’ll need ta get it right pimpin!!!!!!!! like now too!!
December 19th, 2007 at 9:02 pm
djKianoosh says:
kudabeen is totally right on AI’s Defense. He’s one of the best all time in steals. last time I checked that’s called defense. in fact, since I coach little kids in 6th grade, I tell them I count steals as 4 points.
that’s right. A steal is a potential 4 point swing every time. btw, my boys had 29 steals in our game last weekend. gotta love that!
anyway, back on topic, I still have to have Jameer up there. I’d rather have him than Tinsley. Not near Baron Davis, but closer than you think. Jameer is on his way to being really really good.
put it this way, put Jameer on the Lakers and they get better by at least one playoff round in the West. i dont think you get the same effect with Tinsley.
December 19th, 2007 at 9:57 pm
dagwaller says:
Kevin, I’m a Wiz fan, but even I have to admit that this year doesn’t seem to be a Gilbert year. This time last year? Different story, but this piece isn’t on “best pgs of 2006/2007″.
DJ, I’m so-so with you on the defense thing. I just think that by “defense”, people mean that it’s MORE than just steals, so when people say that he’s a great defender because of his quickness and steal numbers, it’s a bit misleading.
Long term, I think that Jameer is going to be better than Tinsley and probably Calderon. In fact, I think that Jameer is already better than Tinsley in terms of game-management (although it’s a little easier when you know who your options are, and they’re as good as D-Ho, Rashard, Turkoglu, etc). However, for now, Tinsley’s having a better all-around year, I think. If you hadn’t checked his numbers and rankings, you’d be surprised. I know that I was.
Numbers:
Tinsley: 14.8 ppg, 8.7 apg, 4.4 rpg, 2.0 spg, 3.68 TOpg, 2.37 A/TO ratio.
Nelson: 12.1 ppg, 4.2 apg, 2.9 rpg, 1.0 spg, 2.64 TOpg, 2.32 A/TO ratio.
Actually, right now Tinsley’s even better at managing the game, if you go by A/TO ratio…
December 20th, 2007 at 1:14 am
control says:
Saying AI is a great defender means you haven’t watched the guy play much. The guy lead the league in steals, who cares…for every steal he got, he gambled 4 times giving his man or another man a free basket. That 4 points he just got from that one steal cost 8 points…which is fine for AI because he don’t give a shit about having a good team, he gives a shit about getting his.
IF AI were interested in winning a championship, he would be leading league in assists. The guy has all the talent in the world, and could be a better play maker than Nash, but for some reason there is something broken in his head that prevents him from setting up his teammates full time.
When AI gets the ball, he either shoots it, or dribbles around with it and passes it off with shot clock running down so his teammate is left playing “Hot Potato” and he has to jackknife a low percentage shot just to not turn it over.
Blocks aren’t the best measure of defense, and Steals aren’t even close to being an accurate measure either (Bruce Bowen avgs less than one of each on his career).
December 20th, 2007 at 8:17 am
ian says:
celts i have hinrich at ten
but youngfed i like the list but id put arenas lowerr
1.kidd
2.nash
3.parker or paul
4.paul or parker
5.billups
6.williams
7.davis
8.arenas
9.cassell
10.hinrich
December 20th, 2007 at 9:25 am
rathauneak says:
I usually just read the comments here, but I can’t stand back and let someone talk about AI like that…lol. If you don’t think AI is/has been interested in winning a chip then “YOU haven’t watched the guy play much!!!” As far as assist, even the years he put up 30+ ppg, he was getting around 7 dimes and those years he was probably playing the two. In order to get assists, you need finishers…which Nash has plenty of. If they swapped teams, I’m sure Iverson would be getting the 15 assists that Nash kicks out on the reg. However, AI doesn’t have Amari dunking every pass that comes to him nor a Marion running with him on every break. Nor does he have a Barbosa or Bell there to hit the open three when he draws attention and kicks it back out.
You know how you get 1/2 a tackle or an assist in football if you don’t tackle the guy by yourself. Me and my homeboy figured that maybe they should give you a 1/2 or a quarter of an assist if you make the pass, but the guy blows it…LOL.
December 20th, 2007 at 9:30 am
Juanito says:
After that Pistons/Celts game last night, can we get a re-rank please? Billups is sooooo much better than Williams and Paul at this point…and when was the last time J Kidd won a game in that fashion? Y’all think about stat lines way too much.
December 20th, 2007 at 11:51 am
Yowiz says:
Parker is 3rd, no question, he has been there done that, don’t crown the young ones to soon, you don’t know how they handle it on the big stage (and don’t come with the Spurs series for Williams please, check the big picture)
December 20th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
ian says:
control
parker only has 2-4 years left in his prime
what????????????
December 20th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
gdon says:
lol at the fool who says parker is past his prime. lol! don’t let the 3 rings fool you into thinking he’s 32 or something… the dude’s 25! roflll
1. Kidd/Nash
3. Williams
4. Paul
5. Arenas
December 20th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
gdon says:
oh my, further look into the comments reveals that same fool goes on to destroy iverson about his game. wow.
December 20th, 2007 at 5:59 pm
Jaleel says:
I agree that Nash and Kidd are 1 and 1a on any given day but after that the list should be rearranged a lil bit.
1. Steve Nash
2. Jason Kidd
3. Chris Paul
4. Baron Davis
5. Chauncey Billups
6. Tony Parker
7. Deron Williams
8. Gilbert Arenas
9. Jamaal Tinsley
10. Jose Calderon
I also have 2 agree with what K-Dizzle had to say about Baron Davis although i would go as far to say that it applies to Chauncey Billups too
K-Dizzle says:
I think Nash and Kidd are 1 and 1a on any given day but I feel like when Baron’s healthy, he’s better than both. He has all their strengths and none of their weaknesses. Dude is like the Blade of the league lol. BD plays better defense than Nash and is equal to Kidd, rebounds better than Nash and shoots it better than Kidd.
The only thing I would have to add to that is that Billups doesn’t have the court vision that some of the other PGs listed above him has.Also, how do Devin Harris, T.J. Ford get no love but Jason Terry does when Terry is really more of a shooting guard than a point guard? Overall a very good list though
December 20th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
Steve says:
Piston fan…here are my rankings:
1.)Kidd (still the best all around PG in the league)
2.)Nash (great distributer and shooter…no defense)
3.)Billups (big shots, doesn’t make mistakes, solid defense)
4.)Williams (younger version of Billups)
5.)Arenas (lights up the score board but no D)
6.)Parker (important clog on a championship team…abused by larger PGs)
7.)Davis (shoot first PG who can never stay healthy, rarely plays D)
8.)Paul (overrated IMO, Williams has a much better all-around game)
9.)Cassell (tough competitor who is still getting it done at 36)
10.)Tinsley (break out year for the trouble-finding Pacer)
December 21st, 2007 at 4:27 am
Mugatu says:
1) steve nash
the most PERFECT offensive PG the league has ever seen, better defensively than given credit for, clutch, tough, proven winner and leader, best screen-setting PG, best at imposing tempo, he is the system in PHX.
2) chris paul
i seriously think that he will be a mix of isiah thomas and steve nash one day and he’ll go down as one of the top 5 greatest point guards in nba history barring serious injury. he’s just that good. he’s completely unstoppable off the dribble, he has tremendous court vision, quick hands, is a vastly improving defender, and an underrated shooter.
3) tony parker
it’s weird… i find so many faults in his game, like his shooting and almost tunnel vision court vision, and yet when i watch him play he kills opposing point guards with his speed, quickness, dribble penetration, and unrivaled finishing ability and is usually the best player on the floor at important junctures of the game. i guess its a testament to pop’s system for just making little T focus on the things he’s good at and not try to be a steve nash.
4) chauncey billups
best post-up PG (better than GP was, but not Sam I Am), best defender at his position, doesn’t make mistakes, big-game player, one of the best free-throw shooters in this era and he gets to the line a lot, but he has a poor mid-range game, as a playmaker he needs a lot of structure because he doesn’t really have great improvisational skills.
5) baron davis
if healthy, the undisputed best PG in the league. b-diddy is legit and he gets style points for the beard. shot selection!
6) jason kidd
one of the all-time greatest passers in league history, best rebounder and second-best defender at PG position, but completely devoid as a scoring threat, just a HORRIBLE shooter but he does hit some big shots. messes around and gets triple-doubles like it aint no thang, but triple-doubles are overrated. i’d rather have my PG getting 25 points and 15 assists while shooting a high percentage from the field than him registering an inefficient 10 points, stealing 10 rebounds that my center or forwards could have gotten, and dishing out 10 assists while turning the ball over 5 times.
7) deron williams
jason kidd w/ a jump shot!??!…. puh leez, d-will is so overrated. his decision-making could use a lot of improvement, esp. on the pick-n-roll. he’s a streaky shooter at best and not as good defensively as people make him out to be, and he’s a lil pudgy. but he does have a beautiful step back jumper.
these are the only PGs worth mentioning right now, even though sam i am is one of my all-time faves, but he’s pretty much just a mummy right now.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:53 am
Adam says:
STEVE NASH = OVERRATED
2000-01 = 15.6 / 7.3
2001-02 = 17.9 / 7.7
2002-03 = 17.7 / 7.3
2003-04 = 14.5 / 8.8
And he barely averaged a steal per game…
Also, he had a peaking Michael Finley, a budding Dirk Nowitzki, Jamison, and Josh Howard…
Now, he has Marion, Amare, and Barbosa…
Nash has always been a solid point guard, but he’s been handing out dimes to a terrific “supporting” cast…Oh, and he can’t play defense
December 21st, 2007 at 10:44 am
JSmoove says:
I can’t believe the comments from some of you cats. How is a bench player going to be a top 10 PG and how can you have 2 top 10 PGS on one team? Gimme a break, you might as well say Barbosa should be on the list too. Rondo is no great talent, so stop that talk he plays with 3 All stars. Jason Kidd is the best PG still as far as assists he only has Vince and RJ to pass to, not a loaded team as Nash has in Phoenix, Nash would be 2 cause he’s nice but Arenas, BDavis are 2 guards running the show. Chauncey is a lot nicer than folk realize, he barely turns it over and he’s been the motor for the Detroit Engine that has made it to each of the last Conference Finals…
December 21st, 2007 at 10:45 am
Anthology says:
This list is what is wrong with the game these days. I want people to rationalize with me for a moment here. Nash is a 2-Time League MVP ……. nuff said!
J-Kidd is on the list right up there with the greats, Magic and the Big-O ……. nuff said!
There’s no question that these 2 guys are 1 & 2. I think the overwhelming majority of sports fans around the world would agree to them being 1 & 2 respectively.
Now, I pose a question to all the so-called experts out there who tend to judge talent based on ESPN highlights. …. If it where a Game VII of the Finals and you couldn’t choose Nash or J-Kidd, whom else would you choose? CP-3? Agent-0? Barron Davis? Please! If anybody says any of these guys before mentioning Tony Parker, or Chauncey Billups; then you don’t know jack about Basketball!
We can debate between who is better; Parker or Billups. But, there no question that these guys have experience on the BIG STAGE, year in and year out. Being a good PG is not about jacking up half-court shots that make there way to the ESPN Top-10 editing room, (ala Barron Davis & Gilbert Arenas). They only show you the ones that go in. If half those ill-advised shots went in, their teams wouldn’t be floating around .500 every year. Being a good PG is about ochestrating your team on offense and defense; knowing who to send where, when to distribute, and when to take the shot. Its not about who has the killer-crossover or the best spin move. Its about who gets the job done …….. Oh, and by the way, who has the Bling!?
Everybody else on that list, doesn’t even matter!