Photo. MannionMaybe the Cavs can contend for a ‘chip after all. If they play defense like they did in Dallas last night and get offensive contributions from a couple of guys other than LeBron ( Big Z and Larry Hughes stepped up), they can at least play with anyone, just like last year, and keep the door open for ‘Bron to take over and win a series or two or three. A couple of big-time clutch plays by LeBron (24 pts, 8 rebs, 7 asts, 3 stls) that helped the Cavs secure the win: When Dallas cut the Cavs’ lead down to two early in the fourth, ‘Bron stepped up and hit Cleveland’s first three-pointer of the game. Then in the final minute, with Dallas down by five, James powered through the lane and crowned Jerry Stackhouse to effectively end it … The Mavs had their chances, but they missed too many open looks. Jason Terry and Stack in particular had a couple of critical misses late in the fourth. Those two were a combined 1-for-10 from deep … Dallas was getting physical with ‘Bron in the first half — even Dirk delivered a blow that shook LeBron up for a sec. Meanwhile, the Cavs sent a number of defenders at Dirk, most notably Ira Newble, who was giving him trouble. It was reminiscent of when Stephen Jackson just out-hearted Dirk in the ‘07 playoffs. Newble didn’t give Dirk any ground when he was on him, and saw Dirk shoot 1-for-8 in the first half. Nowitzki finished with a stat line that looked more like something Zach Randolph or Al Jefferson would put up: 19 points and 20 boards, going 6-for-17 from the floor .. Good news: We’re almost at a point where we’re not confusing Devin Brown with LeBron for that first millisecond Devin appears on screen … After the Cavs wrapped it up, TNT flipped over to the Sonics/Celtics game, and within four seconds Damien Wilkins was jacking up a shot. E-mail from Austin immediately thereafter: “I knew that was gonna happen. I’ve watched almost every Sonics game this year and 90 percent of the time, Damien shoots on their first possession. And 80 percent of the time he shoots on the second possession.” … Midway through the first, Earl Watson missed a runner with the shot clock winding down, but although the shot (barely) caught rim, the refs didn’t give Seattle a new 24. So when the shot clock ran out, Boston got the ball back. For one, the Sonics couldn’t afford to have bad breaks like that if they were to have any chance at beating Boston. Second, the refs were probably going to give Seattle a makeup call on the other end, but KG forced the issue by going to the rack and getting fouled as soon as he got the ball, making sure Boston wouldn’t have to give the ball up on some phantom illegal-screen call. Another missed opportunity for the Sonics: James Posey fell down trying to guard Jeff Green, but Green and Mickael Gelabale still couldn’t execute a two-man game to get a bucket out of it … The C’s looked like they were about to run away in the first half when Delonte West (19 pts, 8 asts) checked in and kept Seattle in the ballgame. When Delonte is healthy he’s clearly the Sonics’ best point guard … They were in it until late in the fourth, but the C’s just had too much Paul Pierce (37 pts) and too much Eddie House (13 pts) off the bench … Kevin Harlan nonchalantly (or as nonchalantly as Kevin Harlan can say anything) called the Celtics the best team in the NBA like it wasn’t even a question … Meanwhile, the Suns smacked the Clips and Amare dominated Chris Kaman — maybe STAT was sparked by everyone talking about how Andrew Bynum owned him on Christmas Day. Amare put up 30 points, 15 boards and 4 blocks, and dunked on Kaman like 4-5 times, while Kaman was held to 9 points on 4-for-17 shooting … Did anyone ever think that Dan Dickau and Richie Frahm would be getting significant NBA burn? And on the same team? Crazy … We’re out like the Zags taking over the League …
December 28th, 2007 at 6:15 am
B says:
And if the clips really get desperate I heard Matt Santangelo is still out there.
December 28th, 2007 at 7:35 am
Data says:
I hate to hate on Lebron… actually it’s not even hate, I think it’s just realistic to think that the Cavs this year don’t have the pieces to contend for a championship (or east finals)this year. Last year was a perfect storm type situation where everything lined up perfectly for them and they snuck in. They haven’t done anything to grt better meanwhile the east has gotten stronger and nevermind them beating anybody in the west in the playoffs. I just think that in the regular season they are capable of playing great on one night, I just find it hard to believe that they can compete realisticaly in a seven game series enough times to make it back to the finals. That being said if danny ferry decides to get Bron some help all bets are off.
Good to see Stat do some damage again, but te true test for Stat isn’t bdunking on people it’s him stopping people. I love his O game but defensively he has to give me more. This guy just gets dominated and he’s suppose to be first team all-nba. you gotta do more on both ends.
I’m out like a positive performance review for Isiah Thomas
December 28th, 2007 at 7:54 am
YOUNGFED says:
Hey guys who’s the best Center and worst Center on da list. End of the year toss-up
1.) Yao
2.)Stat (Amare)
3.)Kaman
4.)Howard
5.)Rasheed
6.)Shaq
7.)Bogut
8.)Dampier
9.)Camby
10.)Big Z
December 28th, 2007 at 8:00 am
doc says:
Lebron is gonna do what he do. He is good enough to get there any year now by his self. Only Boston got stronger seriously. Those paper teams never win it anyway. People just think bron and them stink but the truth is they just play ugly basketball because thats what they talent warrants. That ugly ball and Bron mixed in can beat anybody except the Spurs any given night.
December 28th, 2007 at 8:06 am
Dominique says:
best Center : Howard
worst Center : Dampier
December 28th, 2007 at 8:15 am
cdubb says:
yeah, ira newble givin dirk trouble, sure. the only thing meomrable about this guy is his name. and no word that dirk played thru injuries and had problems with his shooting hand and his groin? why u guys hatin so much on the reigning mvp?
btw, his stat line looked more like a dwight howard line than fat z-bo s
December 28th, 2007 at 8:17 am
Celts Fan says:
best center: Kendrick Perkins
worst center: Scot Pollard
December 28th, 2007 at 8:23 am
YOUNGFED says:
Dominique,
Worst center Dampier come on Dominique you no its Big Z but your right about Howard. But it could be Yao too, that ones still debatable. I don’t really know who’s the best between Yao and Dwight still I’ll wait a bit longer.
December 28th, 2007 at 8:25 am
YOUNGFED says:
Celts,
You gotta be joking right btw I meant best and worst on the list.
December 28th, 2007 at 8:38 am
MSkittle says:
Man, that always happens to me with Devin Brown and LeBron! It also happens with Ime Udoka and Tony Parker.
December 28th, 2007 at 8:51 am
Celts Fan says:
obviously joking Youngfed (well, about best anyway, Pollard is TERRIBLE)
Best: Dwight
Worst: Dampier (thought about Bogut, but his rookie deal is still in effect, while Dampier is making big $$$ and doing nothing to earn it.)
December 28th, 2007 at 8:55 am
Celts Fan says:
Youngfed, Big Z makes a ton of $$$, but he hits the boards hard (he gets a ton of offensive rebounds), blocks shots, has a bit of a J, and btw, helped get his team to the Finals last year as a 3rd option. 7′3″ 290 definitely doesn’t hurt either, and since missing like 4 years with those foot problems (like Grant Hill), he hasn’t missed more than 10 - 20 games TOTAL in the past 4 seasons.
December 28th, 2007 at 8:57 am
Mustard says:
Camby should fall 2nd-3rd on that list…unless you need to hate on someone that is 2nd in the league in rebs and 1st in blocks.
December 28th, 2007 at 9:04 am
Celts Fan says:
The List
1. Dwight
2. Yao
3. Sheed
4. Camby
5. Stat (I put a big emphasis on protecting the rim and rebounding for a center, and Amare doesn’t do that really well and his jumper’s still a work in progress. I’d still love to have him on my team, but I’d take him below the other guys.)
6. Kaman
7. Big Z
8. Shaq
9. Bogut
10. Dampier
December 28th, 2007 at 9:05 am
Celts Fan says:
*obviously based on this year, and this year only. The second you start talking with any historical relevance, Shaq is unquestionably #1
December 28th, 2007 at 9:13 am
doc says:
I mistake Brown for Bron on the quick subs too until Brown does that first stankin ass move and you be like what the ooh thats whats his name.
December 28th, 2007 at 9:16 am
smity says:
—youngfed- i was going to tell you to take sheed off that list but actually now that i think about it (cause i’m a fan of sheed’s game as it is) i give him props for holding down that center position a) like he’s supposed to and b) like i would have liked to see other big dudes like duncan and even dirk or kg do. thats how the 5 position would gain popularity and strength again; by diversifying it. you all see how popular and diverse the forward spots are in the league. so props to sheed for movin (or being moved) to the 5 and doing what he’s supposed to be doing.
best- yao (cause of his offensive unlimitedness and defensive averageness as opposed to dwights (current limitedness on o and defensive greatness…but dwight is coming…)
worst- shaq (its sad that i have to say this. but only reason i didnt go with dampier is cause he’s doing what his system requires that he do and they are winning. so he’s sucking but his team is winning. shaq is sucking and his team is too…)
December 28th, 2007 at 9:26 am
YOUNGFED says:
My list (Based on who I would want and this year only)
1.) Dwight (1 & 2 interchangable)
2.) Yao
3.) Stat
4.) Camby (the new ben wallace/with a lil O’)
5.) Sheed (Because he should be top 3 if he went down low more.)
6.) Kaman (monster games as of late)
7.) Shaq (because I think he’s just faking)
8.) Bogut (he’s a hater of everything american/hip-hop but can play)
9.) Dampier (jus think he’s better than Z)
10.)Big Z (jus too old)
Honorable mention: Okur, Dalembert, Nazr(because this might be his ressurection year).
December 28th, 2007 at 9:30 am
YOUNGFED says:
Smity,
Shaq is not the worst plz don’t disrespect the godfather like that. Check out my list in order in post 18, let me know what you think.
December 28th, 2007 at 9:42 am
YOUNGFED says:
Mustard,
I’m not hating on Camby he just needs to show more O but thats probably cause he doesn’t need too not cause he cant. Camby gets much respect but not 2nd or 3rd.
December 28th, 2007 at 9:44 am
hatindalists says:
how about the WORST POSTER LIST:
1.) Str8baller - aka Gayballer (only posts first or not at all; doesn’t even read the column)
2.) YOUNGFED - dude has to put EVERYTHING in a list
3.) everyone else is cool - DIME is the shit, but a few of their readers are Wack
peace
December 28th, 2007 at 9:44 am
Ian says:
1 howard or yao
10 shaq
December 28th, 2007 at 9:46 am
bron42 aka Global-4A-Reason says:
the simple fact that dirk didnt derserve the mvp says enough. MVP is most VALUABLE player, not player on team with the best record. no way dirk was more valuable than kobe,lebron,tmac,KG (ask the timberwolves) or even overhyped nash. and those aren’t dwight howard numbers since dwight usually shoots a good fg% with mostly dunks.
shaq isn’t suckin if you really look at it…the guys gettin like 12 points on 5-6 touches. even kobe aint scorin tons if he doesnt get the ball. instead you got ricky davis and guys like that jackin shots.
best: dwight easily..has heart, youth, athletic ability, now has some post moves and plays defense. just doesn’t have yaos jumper, wow.
worst: I’d say bogut just because he was a #1 pick and simply has been in the spotlight for nothing accept tryin to hate on american ballers.
December 28th, 2007 at 9:51 am
YOUNGFED says:
Hatindalist,
You just mad cause I envoke intellectual convo that people respond to whether good or bad thats what a forum is for idiot. Even your response only further proves my point. I glad to see your reading my post but your comment was kinda lame.
I’m what the Dime’s been missin’ CHUMP.
December 28th, 2007 at 9:54 am
hatindalists says:
then why ain’t you workin’ for them Y-Fed?
that’s right - because DIME wouldn’t want your lame ass on board
peace chump
December 28th, 2007 at 9:59 am
YOUNGFED says:
Hatindalist,
I don’t work for Dime because that’s not what my degree is in plus I am very happy with my career path hince the latter part of my name (FED). You figure it out if your smart enough. Now please just STFU. (LOL)
December 28th, 2007 at 10:01 am
smity says:
—i’m changing my mind and agreeing with bron about bogut being worst. while shaq isnt what he used to be he has shown that he can be occasionally. bogut on the other hand was, like bron said, the number 1 pick and has yet to live up to the expectations surrounding him or has he?
—youngfed- i’d put sheed higher at the 3 (like you thought about doing) based on the fact that he does it when the team needs it and he has d and knows how to contribute in other ways…
so sheed 3,
camby 4,
amare 5 (putting it on kaman one night after getting done up by that young boy bynum is a step but show me more. the ability is there to dominate on both ends. is the effort there as well (lookin at you too, melo).
shaq 6 (his presence still means a lot. who dunks on him?),
kaman 7 (having a good year, will he keep it up? what happened to him last year and why?)
z 8
damp 9
bogut 10
December 28th, 2007 at 10:02 am
williams says:
Yo chandler’s not on that list?
Z, Shaq, Bogut, Dampier make it?
Tyson would rank like 6/7 in my opinion.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:07 am
YOUNGFED says:
Yea Bron had me thinking bout changing by dropping bogut a few notches too because he’s is a first round pick. I just couldn’t because he plays better than the guys below him.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:12 am
smity says:
williams- good point. i forgot about tyson
youngfed- somebody has to go. tyson would have to take that 8th spot for me ranking, after kaman and before ilgauskas
December 28th, 2007 at 10:12 am
YOUNGFED says:
Yeah Dang it I knew I forgot someone but who do you drop Z or Damp. Heres the revision.
1.)Howard
2.)Yao
3.)Stat
4.)Camby
5.)Sheed
6.) Chandler
7.)Kaman
8.)Shaq
9.)Bogut
10.)Z (I quess since everyone hatin on Damp)
December 28th, 2007 at 10:41 am
IGP says:
I’d say Bynum should be on this list…he’s having a nasty year…
December 28th, 2007 at 10:42 am
bron42 aka Global-4A-Reason says:
nah i’d put bogut off the map lol not only was he a first rounder.. he was NUMBER ONE…ahead of:
deron williams, chris paul,bynum,danny granger, etc…
now that i think about it…damn 2005 might have been the weakest draft ever outside of like 2 people.
I’d take lanky ass hakim warrick over bogut lol
December 28th, 2007 at 10:50 am
dagwaller says:
Yea, Bron, except that he was the most valuable last year. I’d say you can measure someone’s value by how well the team does, wouldn’t you? LeBron was so valuable that his team got what…the fourth seed? T-Mac got what…the eighth seed? Kobe got what…the seventh seed? Or did his team not even make the playoffs? The fact that you even listed KG for last year undercuts your entire argument. When was the last MVP on a team that didn’t make the playoffs?
Yea, those guys are on teams composed of scrubs, but think about it - if they had ended up winning more games, it’d indicate just how valuable they were as basketball players, not just as stat builders on mediocre teams.
Sad thing is, the only guy you listed that had a really successful regular season was Nash, and you stupidly hated on him. Ha
1. Dwight
2. Yao
3. Kaman
4. Stat
5. Camby
6. Sheed
7. Chandler
8. Bogut
9. Z
10. Shaq
December 28th, 2007 at 10:52 am
Myrie says:
Center is now the weakest position in the league. But here’s the rundown–
Marcus Camby
Dwight Howard
Yao Ming
Amare Stoudamire
Shaquille O’Neal
Rasheed Wallace
Tyson Chandler
Chris Kaman
Andrew Bogut
Andrew Bynum
December 28th, 2007 at 10:59 am
dagwaller says:
Wait - are we doing all the centers in the L, or are we doing just the ones on the list?
December 28th, 2007 at 11:02 am
bron42 aka Global-4A-Reason says:
wow u said camby first..
and dag you kno just as well as I do what my point was…the point is, OVERALL dirk was not the most important in the nba. His team still would of made the playoffs without him. same with nash, although i think he plays a bigger role than dirk as a leader. I choose MVP by subtraction…what team would of fell off the most by losing one player. We already kno where the t-wolves are without KG so that merits how valuable he was. We say what happen to the cavs when lebron wasn’t there. We know when tmac is injured the rockets are a joke. We say the hype about how hard it was to get equal value for kobe. Meanwhile if dirk struggles or misses, josh howard/jason terry/ even stackhouse can go off and carry the team at times. So record alone doesnt judge how important a player is, hell if thats the case some pistons players deserve a few MVP votes since they ALWAYS have a top 4-5 record recently. And you can’t say dirk was MVP cuz of his personal numbers since other players had better numbers. Until dirk loses the tinman routine and gets some heart, he will always be a white sam perkins to me or a 7′0 kyle korver. I’m not rippin your guy but thats just my perspective so lets not argue for 80 posts.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:04 am
bron42 aka Global-4A-Reason says:
umm ya….convert all those “we say” to “we saw” lol
December 28th, 2007 at 11:08 am
bron42 aka Global-4A-Reason says:
also, i didnt hate on nash, i just feel hes overhyped, has one of shaqs mvps and dirk has one of nash’s. nash is like the hawiian QB. system made. you put him around running guys, hes a good floor leader and you can hide his lack of defense since they score alot. Hence the reason he never got a MVP look till he went to phoenix. Thats why in the post season when games get slowed down, the weaknesses show and the suns lose.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:12 am
YOUNGFED says:
Myrie
WOW!!! You put Camby at #1 thats different. You can’t really believe he’s better than Howard/Yao. Please say it ain’t so.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:15 am
Myrie says:
Yup. Camby first. And I stand by that. He’s probably the 2nd-best passing center in the league (yao). We know he brings the defense and he can handle the ball. His court awareness and decision making is the most surprising. We know he is not an offensive threat, but he still gets his points despite having ZERO plays run for him. And his jimmy shot is better than a few centers on this list. He is a solid all-around center.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:17 am
YOUNGFED says:
Dag the list can always be revised over and over I was just putting out some food for thought with my list but I doubt it can be expanded too much theres not enough good centers.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:21 am
YOUNGFED says:
Everyones entitled an opinion Myrie although that ones very questionable even though you make some valid points.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:25 am
control says:
Camby at #1? Over Howard?
Too bad Ecity wasn’t on that list so I could list him as last…though I guess it is a testiment to how bad he is doing right now that he isn’t even in consideration but Bogut is.
Bron,
Nash’s defense isn’t as bad as everyone says, there are alot of point guards who are much weaker defenders than Nash…AI for example. Nash deserved his MVPs, and probably last year’s as well, if only because he is so good at setting up teammates that he could take 6 of the scrubiest guys from the DLeague and get them into the playoffs.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:31 am
dagwaller says:
Gotcha Fed. I would put Bynum somewhere near 8, 9 or 10 - ahead of Shaq for sure, and very probably Bogut and Z.
Ha, Bron, fair enough. I think the main problem is that MVP has such a widely interpreted meaning. I wish the NBA would define it a little better.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
smity says:
yeah, the center position is weak…see my earlier post for what i think should be the solution…
December 28th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Celts Fan says:
Control, I think Shawn Marion is more valuable to Phoenix’s style than Nash. Nash is an amazing point guard (on 1 side of the ball anyway) but that team plays literally no D whatsoever outside of Marion, who’s playing undersized 4, and cleaning up a lot of the mess. Take away Marion, and the Suns are about a notch better than last year’s Sonics (can hang 100 and still lose by 20.)
December 28th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
ian says:
myrie
i had howard and yao at 1 but camby is really close to them in my opinion. dampier sucks more than bogut the list isnt biggest bust but whos the best of the group.
kg didnt deserve a single vote last season
(dirk wasnt the mvp btw it was nash again or maybe lebron or duncan)
by substraction like bron mentioned wolves with kg missed the playoffs and without him still miss it nothing changes.
without nash and duncan spurs and suns go from top three to maybe 7 or 8th seeds thats a big difference.
December 28th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
Brown says:
Marcus Camby has the ugliest form on his shot (maybe) in the whole league. He can knock it down, but I cringe every time I see him shoot, it just never looks like it even has a chance to go in.
I like Howard the best, but Camby gives you what a Centre is supposed to, and that’s defense and rebounding. I wish there were more players in the league with his mentality. Not everybody has to make their mark as an offensive threat, and Camby obviously gets that.
Chandler is a poor man’s version of Camby, only because he doesn’t bring it on as consistently a high level, but they have very similar skills.
December 28th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
Celts Fan says:
Dampier is worse than Bogut, is in/past his prime (so there’s no “potential” like there sort of is with Bogut) and makes about twice as much $, thereby killing Dallas’ cap too. Clearly, Dampier is the worst.
December 28th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
bron42 aka Global-4A-Reason says:
control: when did nash ever take a bunch of scrubs? last I checked he’s been with a hunch of guys who were already allstars or who allstar potential and still hasnt won jack.
Dag: I agree, i mean is MVP for best offensive player simply the opposite of DPOY? or is it for someone on the team with the best record? or is it the most dominant player in general, no matter the team record? cuz we all kno, a well balanced team like the pistons, spurs, etc.. can beat a team with one GODLY superstar and a bunch of scrubs anyday so record shouldnt really mean much in most valuable player not best team. at no time did i ever watch dirk or nash play and say “that guy right there is the best player in the nba” the way they do lebron and kobe.
Ian: nash wasn’t the mvp last year and he wasn’t his first year. like i said, to me, mvp should go to the guy who means the most to his team. that wasn’t nash since the suns have other stars. Kg misses the playoffs but we all kno, with KG on the team the timberwolves were always considered a playoff contender who no one expected to win anything. Without KG their the worst team in the nba. thats a BIG difference just on record alone. a 43 win team to a maybe 13 win team?
if nash goes down the suns can still win 40+ games with a average guard (marcus banks doesnt count). Duncan going down, the spurs still make the playoffs but dont win a ring. So i’d still say last years mvp is either lebron (stats) duncan (team record, wins, and the best player in the nba to most people). nash would get it for what? passing alot?
December 28th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
ian says:
bron
im just saying that to me
going from an 8th seed (phoenix before nash) to a title contender is a bigger jump than 15 wins to 40 and still miss the playoffs
because u leap frog better teams in the standings
like i said im not saying nash was the mvp but just that he deserved is more than kg(doesnt mean nash is the better player) but the mvp was between lebron and duncan definitivamente not dirk.
it harder to make an 8th seed a title contender than to get ALMOST in the playoffs
didnt nash make the biggest dif in wins from one season to the other??? (im not telling u. im really asking)
i just dont like giving votes to someone that didnt make the playoffs when u r in a league where more than half the teams make it and its the only sport when one man can make all the dif
December 28th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
ian says:
celts of course dampier is the worst is a no brainer i was playing when i said shaq.
but there are too many centers i rather have
howard
yao
amare
camby
chandler
oden
kaman
aldridge
bynum
kwame brown and curry KNATTTT
sheed
heck even maybeeeeee bogut
did i miss anyone ??
December 28th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
control says:
bron, I didn’t say Nash DID take a bunch of scrubs, I said he COULD take a bunch of scrubs. You get rid of everyone on the Suns and bring up any D League team and I’m pretty sure Nash will get that team 8-9th seed…even in the West. The guy makes that much of a difference on his team. How many players have left the Suns and went onto different teams and looked like complete scrubs (ex. Q in NY)?
Who knows wtf MVP means anyways…apparently it means whoever the voters heard about the most during the year.
December 28th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
Celts Fan says:
Control, the problem w/ that argument is that the 2 best guys around him (Amare and Marion) are still there. Nash is a TERRIBLE defender and wouldn’t be able to do jack w/out Marion being able to D up everyone. Give Nash a bunch of D Leaguers and he’s in the lottery again. Remember, EVERY team he’s ever been on has been considered soft and it took the offense-oriented rules changes of ‘03 to turn him from border-line all star to multiple MVP winner. Not trying to take anything away from the guy, but he only plays one end of the court and I think he’s over-rated. He’s an all star and deserved one of those MVP’s, but those of you saying he could take a team of D Leaguers to the Playoffs are smoking some good shit…
December 28th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
Ian says:
celts
remember that marion and amare were just and 8th seed before nash came aboard
being overrated doesnt mean your a bad hes an allstar not a superstar
but some people talk about nash here like hes trash
December 28th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
Myrie says:
So…..who gets the MVP in 2007-2008?
Much too soon to really tell; except for sure that Dirk ain’t gonna win it.
Dwight Howard? LeBron James? Kevin Garnett? Kobe Bryant? Other……if you had a vote, who’d you give it to?
December 28th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
Ian says:
well the way its going its either a celtic a spur or a laker
December 28th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
Celts Fan says:
My top 6 MVP candidates:
1. KG
2. Paul Pierce
3. Ray Allen
4. Rajon Rondo
5. Kendrick Perkins
6. Kevin McHale
December 28th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Bron42 says:
ok, i’ll go with you there ian but control your way off and giving credit to nash too much. screw d league, he wouldnt win with the grizzlies, let alone d league. nash can turn any team into a run and gun team so their exciting but their not suddenly good. the mavs are in the same spot without him and yes, the suns were a 8th seed but it wasn’t all nash and the weaknesses they had are still evident. all the move from 8th seed show’d is hes a better floor general than marbury and ignoring the growth in amare’s game and marion. Not to mention barbosa coming off the bench and killing (which has nothing to do with nash). diaws one good year etc.. And i dont think nash is trash. if he was alil more athletic, he’d be the perfect “offensive” guard in my book. but i still think his defense is tooo terrible (to even compare AI’s defense to him is a insult to AI) plus hes never really made any team THAT much better. Hes been surrounded by allstars and all his teams still seem to fail at the same spot and for the same reasons, no defense. funny how once he left, the mavs were supposedly a legit defensive team.
myrie: i think its too early AND we still don’t kno what MVP goes for…best record? than its KG…best stats? then its lebron…Most Valuable to his team? Probably Kobe. so its all up in the air. me personally and it kills me to say this, i’d say lebron at this point. dwight has carried his team just as much, but the magic go on losing streaks too often.
December 28th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
Bron42 says:
plus ian, they didn’t leap frog, some of those teams “timberwolves, sonics, kings,lakers” who used to be good, just fell off the map due to trades or old people. so again, you cant give nash ALL the credit.
December 28th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
Bron42 says:
p.s: control…when was there a 9th seed in the west?
December 28th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Celts Fan says:
ok, the real list:
1. KG (his impact is more than just numbers. I’ve always loved the guy, but seeing him in person and watching every game, you can’t even begin to describe his impact on EVERYTHING the Celtics do. Wow…)
2. Chris Paul
3. Dwight
4. JKidd (definitely not his fault they’re floundering, still putting up triple doubles at a ridiculous rate, and he got robbed of an MVP when he took NJ to 2 straight Finals they had no business being in. Under the same guidelines that let Nash win his, Kidd should’ve won one, maybe if he’d kept his hands to himself…)
5. LeBron
6. Kobe
7. Brandon Roy (I wanted to put him higher, but who do you move down?)
8. Nash
9. Deron Williams
10. Baron Davis
…
500. Brian Scalabrinie (how’s big red even make a D-League roster, much less a contender? He has to have a video of Danny Ainge molesting a boy and fondling a priest at the same time, while Doc yells instructions from the side. That makes more sense than that he earned a FIVE YEAR contract in the NBA.)
December 28th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
Bron42 says:
q rich left the suns and sucks….tim thomas left and is eh…joe johnson left and is nice…so you can’t give their credit to nash either cuz q rich was nice as a clipper, tim thomas has always been a bum unless its a contract year and joe is that kind of guy who will drop 40 and then miss a wide open game winning layup
December 28th, 2007 at 6:10 pm
dagwaller says:
Real live facts that I’ve posted here before, but some people apparently haven’t read.
Suns playoff wins in the 3 years leading up to Nash (including years with Jason Kidd, Stephon Marbury, Amare Stoudemire and Shawn Marion):
2.
Suns playoff wins in the 3 years since Nash got there:
9 the first year (#1 seed in the West).
10 (without Amare).
6, losing to eventual champion Spurs without Diaw and Stoudemire for the last game.
2 to 25 playoff wins. MVP worthy, you might say. How else do you want to measure the guy?
Making people better? Yea, Q is really good now. Diaw was great before he got to Phoenix, just ask the Hawks. JJ was great before he got there, too - ask the Celtics. Did anyone else catch Jason Terry last night? Good thing the Mavs got rid of Nash. Stupid arguments…
December 28th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
K-Dizzle says:
Great posts today. It’s like a good book.
1) What Dag said - it’s about wins in the playoffs, had this discussion last day - you can’t say the Mavs improved without Nash when they go to the finals and lose, then get taken out in the first round by Golden State. How much better is Dallas with Nash runnin shit? We’ll never know, but can’t nobody tell me Jet is better. Just like Dag said, Marion and Amare were there before Nash so you can’t say he didn’t make them better when they increase their playoff wins by 23.Dudes need to stop talkin like the man was a scrub before Phoenix cuz he was a multinple all-star guard who was improvin. Once again, Cuban phucked up
Control - I feel you on Nash’s defense not being as bad as people make it out to be. He don’t get lit up by scrubs. It ain’t your defense when you gettin lit by BDavis, Parker, AI, D-Will, CP3.They get EVERYONE! Nash got Jkidd for 42 last season so tell me what that means about JKidd’s defense…NOTHIN. All you dudes rippin on Nash’s defense, please check head-to-head stats and lemme know what the facts are.
Myrie - I agree with you bout Camby. Dude has no weaknesses. I watched that Nuggets beatdown on the Bucks and dude is sick. Trip-doub. I wouldn’t take him over Howard if I was buildin a franchise, just cuz Dwight is so far away from his prime, you know he’ll be disgusting when he puts it all together in like 5-6 years, which sounds scary to say cuz his improvements year to year are nuts. But if I’m tryin to get a ring right now, Camby’s the man. #2 rebounder, #1 shot blocker, defers to AI and Melo, Gets no plays run for him, hits the open j, GREAT passer, brings the ball up when the guards are pressured.
Dude is just a ball-player. Another dude Toronto messed up on by tradin away……DAMN!!!
In closin - this year’s MVP : Kobe Bryant. same situation as Lebron…..but winnin lol
peace
December 28th, 2007 at 8:21 pm
doc says:
I don’t think no whiteboy gonna get love on this site or Chinese for that matter and i’m black and hood as they come. But we give props when props do. Nash nice top 3 pg’s in the L what more you want and Dallas ain’t doin shit without Dirk. He got MVP cause they won 67 games and if you look at who wins it every year its somebody with a top3 record at least or they would give it to like the same 5 mothafuckers every year. Duncan AI Kobe Lebron KG. Nobody ever got dicked all they gotta do is win games.
December 28th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
K-Dizzle says:
Doc
J-Kidd got dicked first year in Jersey
They stole that MVP
December 28th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
control says:
bron, I was obviously referring to 8-9th spot in the West, the 8th of which is a seed, I thought it was obvious and I’m sure everyone else picked up on it.
Nash’s D is underrated because if you watch tapes of him, he is very very intelligent on help D. There isn’t another guy in the league who is more deadly at poking the ball out of a big guy’s hands when is dribbling around in the paint with his head turned. He is amazing at traps and keeping on top of ball movements. He guards the passing lanes good, and doesn’t take risks trying to get steals. The guards that kill him are like Tony Parker and AI…who are considered two of the fastest guards in the league…and who are being paid because they burn EVERYONE in the league. Nash is slightly slower with his lateral speed, but he isn’t even close to being a “terrible” defender because of it.
Now, lets look at AI’s defense. The guy is quick as hell, and can play passing lanes for quick steals as good as anyone in the league. What happens with him though is that he gambles as much as he can, and gets like 2 steals a game. Lets say that each of the 2 steals he gets from the 10-12 gambles he takes gets 3 points per, so 6 points from his steals. At the same time, of those 10-12 gambles, at least 3-4 of them are going to put him out of position, which will usually give up at least 2 points. So he is gambling 6 points to give up 6-8 points (at the very least, at the very most it could be 16-20). That is some great defending. AI is 165lbs soaking wet, any point guard in the league with the exception of poor broke-backed TJ Ford can post him up and have his way all day.
AI has been matched with amazing defensive centers his entire career…Mutumbo, Dalembeast and now probably the best defensive center in the league right now, Marcus Camby. Without one of those guys behind him, AI will give up 40-50 points a game, easy.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
control says:
I don’t know about you guys, but I think being post 69 is MUCH better than being post 1! Take that str8baller!
December 28th, 2007 at 10:30 pm
bron42 aka Global-4A-Reason says:
well guys i had my usual long paragraph comment completely ripping your posts all ready and set, then my computer froze and in no way am i typing that again so you got luck lol heres the summery:
Dizzle: there is no “what would the mavs be like with nash” cuz nash WAS there and they didn’t get to the finals. So no matter what happened in the finals, the fact remains the whole time nash was there, he NEVER got them there or to 67 wins. so technically they have done better without him. no what ifs needed.
Dag: Diaw was a 1 hit wonder, hence he sucks this year even though nash is there. and for the record, if you play like diaws rookie year, he was rated a 83. JJ got traded by the celtics cuz he had potential but made bonehead moves and at that time the celtics were makin a playoff push and didnt have time for him to develop.
Doc: the year KG won the title, his team didnt have the best record. Same with iverson…they both were just considered teh most dominant players in the league when they won. and like we pointed out, in no way, did dirk deserve it last year unless it was soley on record and in that case he didnt win all 67 games by himself and still wasnt most valuable.
control: no, nash IS a terrible defender, he has a high basketball IQ so that makes up for it on the help defense where he knows where to be and can flop with the best of them.All in all hes still a bad defender. But hes still not a better defender or overall player than iverson who is always like top 5 in steals. I’ll give nash his credit for being a great passer but sayin hes even a average defender is a joke.
keep in mind…this was the short version of my argument lol
December 28th, 2007 at 10:30 pm
bron42 aka Global-4A-Reason says:
* play LIVE diaws rookie year
December 29th, 2007 at 12:16 am
kowtz says:
the black mamba is doing his thing again,…
December 29th, 2007 at 12:22 am
dagwaller says:
Yea, I hate it when that happens to my comp. I usually get lucky, though.
That having been said, I still don’t really see much counterpoint to any of the arguments. Yea, Nash didn’t win it all with Dallas, but that was before he really started to hit it, and it was when they had Michael Finley instead of Josh Howard - in my opinion, J-Ho is a better player than Michael Finley was. Beyond that, they didn’t have a center (can you even remember who the center WAS on those teams?). Those teams, simply put, weren’t as good as the team they have now.
I’m sure you had more to say on the players getting better or worse with/without Nash, but I’ve thought out most of the players that mattered, and I don’t see one that really got better without him.
I wouldn’t say that Nash is a good defender, but control is on point - he’s underrated as an athlete and a defender.
December 29th, 2007 at 1:14 am
Ian says:
wow bron we had a NORMAL posting session today
bron i think nash is bad on D but i do think that iverson is just as bad
and about the mvp is true what someone mention they go a lot by top record cuz then duncan shaq and iverson shoulda won every season since 98
no nash no kidd no dirk even no kg
and kidd wasnt the mvp none of those season they went to the finals
first playoffs dont count (if they did timmy beat the crap outta the nets in the finals)
two kidd did what barkley and nash did
do the same shit they always do on another team and became the flavor of the month
bron true the mavs got to the finals without nash but they got reallllllllllllll lucky against the spurs and when nash was there josh howard wasnt josh howard.
for someone that said that amare and diaw missed the last game vs the spurs ehhhh they didnt it was game 5
December 29th, 2007 at 1:50 am
jnuh says:
Fuck this “surrounded by all-stars” bullshit.
If you apply that sorry excuse for logic you would have to agree that Larry & Magic’s (and to a lesser extent MJ’s) MVP’s are null & void.
Last time I checked ALL the Lakers & Celtic’s teams back in the day were chock full of All-Stars and pretty damn close to All-Stars.
December 29th, 2007 at 4:48 am
Bron42 says:
for you to say josh howard isnt josh howard is like sayin “oh marbury was just as good as nash, its just that amare wasnt amare or marion wasnt marion yet” or something so thats kinda null.
jnuh: umm last i checked, larry,magic and mj all got to the finals or won rings. they didn’t fizzle out in the second round or get torched by up and coming guards. So by saying nash is with a bunch of allstars STILL matters cuz the guy hasnt even gotten to the finals. Magic,larry and mj,they were like the spurs team now. They had one main star who was MILLESSSS above anyone else in the league and a bunch of role players who did their job. you can’t say that about the suns. you have nash who is maybe the best passer in the game (depends who you ask) and thats about it when it comes to setting himself apart.
Dag: the only reason you can say josh wasnt josh is because without nash there he has a bigger role. And that mavs arent the same team now but its not like they revamped the whole squad. the main pieces were still there. I mean think about it, the suns lose now, the same way the mavs used to. Slow down ball in the second round. Thats not just by chance. the fact is and always will be, any squad nash is on, is built for regular season and in a 7 game series where you have to get stops, his teams lose.
Ian: we could always have a normal convo, its just gay when you go all lil kid with the name calling and shit just cuz people disagree with you. I disagree with 90% of the people here but i dont get all petty. THat being said, iverson isn’t just as bad, like i said, hes usually top 5 in steals every year. Iverson isnt a lock down defender, but hes a better on ball defender and no way nash plays the passing lanes better. Stats alone, how often do you see other guards putting big numbers up on iverson. As for the records thts bull since the year nash won it in 05-06, the spurs,mavs and the pistons had better records than the suns and the suns were only 2 games ahead of miami and 4 games ahead of the cavs, so if were goin on records, then nash def didnt deserve that mvp. so plain and simple, if were goin on records, he loses it. if were goin on stats, hes losin it. where is the argument really? the suns only had the best record in the 04-05 season. so based on your argument, nash still only deserves one at most.
December 29th, 2007 at 5:00 am
Bron42 says:
also if were basing nash’s greatness and deserving of mvp on him turning around the suns after they missed the playoffs for 2 years, then how come in 00-01 the nets went 26-56, the next year when kidd got there they went 52-30 and got to the finals but he didnt win mvp? Instead it went to duncan who a) team didnt have the best record b) didnt make it to the finals
so which is it, best record or best player in the league who wins the mvp? cuz like i said, never have dirk and nash been the best players in the league.
December 29th, 2007 at 9:47 am
doc says:
bron when KG won it they were 1 seed in the West and when AI won it they were 1 seed in the East check the facts brother. And K-Dizzle some people think Kidd got dicked but Shaq had the best record that year and ended up winning the chip so he rightfully deserved it.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:41 am
Ian says:
jnuh
that is something i always say
when people try and go like well duncan has a good team
nas has a good team
jordan had the best team also
bird and magic had the best teams
dr j was stacked in the early 80s
so the best players ever must be losers with good stats???? fuck no
is the best player on the best team
nash is no duncan bird magic or jordan but he is really good
i like iverson a lot but im not so high on the players that got to the finals in the east during the 99-03 seasons except reggie
December 29th, 2007 at 1:13 pm
bron42 aka Global-4A-Reason says:
right ian, but like i said….bird,magic,mj,hakeem etc..all won when they were surrounded. nash has been surrounded and never even been to the finals.I mean the one year KG had 2 other good people, he got to the conference finals too. and everytme i talk to you i point out…overall team is more important than one star. 2 stars on opposite teams can be exactly the same but if one has a better supporting case, his team is gonna win more games..thats just common knowledge. If me and you both average 50 points a game, but your bench averaged 30 points more than my bench, your gonna have a better record even though were both identical. Just like the best player in the league, isn’t always on the best team. is dirk better than lebron or kobe? no. is nash? no. but they alwyas have better records cuz the guys placed around them.
doc: best record in their conference, not hte league
December 29th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
K-Dizzle says:
Ian - “bron true the mavs got to the finals without nash but they got reallllllllllllll lucky against the spurs and when nash was there josh howard wasnt josh howard.”
so true
Doc - MVP is for the regular season so it don’t matter that Shaq got the chip cuz Wade was the Finals MVP anyways
Kidd did get dicked cuz a 30 game improvement with basically the same team as before you arrived is what got AI, Barkley, Nash their MVPs. Duncan had an average year(for him) on one of his averagely good teams, but he didn’t do nothin he hadn’t done the year before.
bron - you need to realize that players do improve and Dirk and Howard both got better the next season, Avery became a better coach, they signed Damp and Diop, they got rid of a past-his-prime Finley. You make it sound like Nash left and the same team went to the Finals.(1) It wasn’t the same team (2) We can argue about it til we blue(well, black folk don’t go blue so skip that)but Nash woulda helped that team cuz he don’t go streaky like Jet and Harris really can’t shoot yet and he’s a better playmaker than both. How many more open looks are Dirk and Howard gettin if the defense gotta honor Nash’s j?- whatever tho agree to disagree
(3) Not only did the Mavs get lucky against the Spurs, you gotta remember that Phoenix took em to six games in the Western Finals….WITHOUT Amare. No what ifs, but don’t tell me he don’t make a difference.
peace
December 29th, 2007 at 8:28 pm
jnuh says:
Playoffs & Finals have NOTHING to do with an MVP award so Bron, again, your argument is irrelevant.
Save that wind for his Hall Of Fame induction ceremony.