Top 10 Point Guard of All-Time?
The Glove on Dime #9For the last half-hour or so, the Dime office has been embroiled in an argument that, as usual, was unwittingly started by me.
Is Gary Payton one of the 10 best point guards of all-time?
Being the Seattle native and loyal GP fan that I am, I brought the whole thing up while thumbing through a magazine I got in the mail today that had an article on Payton’s legacy. “Top 10 point guard of all-time,” I said without giving it a second thought. Thirty minutes later I’m sitting here with these clowns yelling ridiculous names at me of guys they think rank ahead of “The Glove,” guys like Penny Hardaway and Baron Davis. Now, I never said Gary was #1 — I recognize he’s probably #9 or #10 on the list, but I stand by it.
What say you? Is GP one of the 10 best PG’s ever?
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February 25th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
GayforRudy says:
Who cares!
February 25th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
bliz289 says:
in no particular order:
stockton
magic
isiah
cousy
kidd
nash
tiny
big o
who am i missing???
February 25th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
MoxWestCoastRep says:
Cousy is like having mikan on the top 5 centers list, just doesn’t compare to todays athlete, nor did they face an acceptable level of competition to make this list.
That said I’d rather have the glove than cousy and tiny.
Any consideration of Timmy Hardaway?
February 25th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
yoda says:
baron davis? rofl. as for penny, cant say for sure, injury took him out of race. since 1994, when i started to folow NBA, GP was one of top 5 PG. cant say anything about guys before ( even tho i saw videos of zeke and magic)
February 25th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
doc says:
Mine would go in PARTICULAR order: Magic,Big O,Zeke,Tiny,Stockton,Kidd,Nash,GP,Cousy,Tim Hardaway. Just a opinion.
February 25th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Bust Jlaze says:
I’m not saying Baron Davis is one of the 10 best of all time…but he’s certainly on Payton’s level. Which to me, means that neither one are on that list.
February 25th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Bust Jlaze says:
I mean dag, top TEN? U sure about that? Dude was sick, don’t get me wrong…but top TENNN?? of ALL TIME? Ummmmmm…..
February 25th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
et says:
GP is definitely top 10 of all time. In his prime, he could beat you in so many different ways… from outside, posting up, driving to the hoop… and he was a fierce competitor! Not to mention he is arguably the best defensive PG of all time. There’s no way other names such as Penny or Baron place in front of him. Penny was more of an SG and Baron has yet to prove himself to be a reliable leader. I’d take GP over Kidd too… while Kidd owns on the triple-doubles and has finals appearances of his own, he’s incapable of offensively taking over a game the way GP could and defensively, I still give GP the edge.
February 25th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Prof. TX says:
I’d say Payton is/was better than Penny, and I agree that it’s really hard to measure guys from the black&white film era against the 80′s, 90′s, and today because the competition wasn’t nearly at the levels of skill and athleticism that it is now.
Despite what bitter old relics like Charlie Rosen would say, alot of the older stars wouldn’t have been able to keep up in today’s game but the truly timeless legends like Jordan, Olajuwon, or Magic would still insert into any of today’s lineups and dominate the game.
February 25th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Mike C says:
It’s crazy that y’all are even discussing this. I’d only put Magic, Isaiah, and Oscar before him and NO ONE else. As a matter of fact, I’d take the late 90s version of GP over the primes of Stockton, J-Kidd, or Nash. The man was as destructive on the defensive side of the ball as anyone in the history of the game. Period.
February 25th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Mike C says:
Just saw the bottom portion of the article, mentioning Penny and Baron..
WHAT??? Someone in the office was actually arguing that Penny and Baron was better than the Glove???
That’s just… Damn, Im starting to doubt the credibility of DIME now…
February 25th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Bust Jlaze says:
Ok so top ten DEFENSIVE PG list. How about all-around point guard? I like the dude, don’t get me wrong, but the only person I’ve ever seen him successfully set up with the ball in the right spot at the right time was SHAWN KEMP. He could steal the rims off of Air Force 1′s landing gear, but that just makes him a specialist in my book.
February 25th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
K-Dizzle says:
Damn, A.B., finally some shit we can agree on.
Like Mike C said, there really some dudes on staff who put Baron and Penny ahead of dude? Really?
The Glove, which might be one of the best nicknames of all-time, was the best DEFENSIVE point guard of all time. Add to that the best POST-UP point, 1 ring, 3 finals appearances. How many points got the DPOY before and since? I don’t got anybody above him except Magic, Isiah, Tiny, Cousy outta respect but u know GP would lock him down too, maybe Stockton just cuz of the all-time steals/assists,but GP used to put him in the torture chamber too, and Nash hasn’t done it for as long as GP, who was all-world for 7-8 yrs straight, but Oscar was really a 2 who could make plays, kinda like what Lebron does now. No way JKidd, Tim, KJ, Baron, Penny are above GP. Who those dudes in the office think Baron and Kidd were watching? GP is why all theses Oakland/LA points come into the L with swagger, play defense, and just generally take over games late. Boom, Kidd, Gil, JT, Dre Miller all get down on the defense end of the floor.
Now walk around the office and start slappin the young’uns
February 25th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Austin Burton says:
I hope they weren’t serious. But I fear they were. I think people are thinking too much about Miami Heat Payton and not Seattle Supersonics Payton.
February 25th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
TJ says:
Anyone who says Penny is better than GP is out of their mind. Penny was overrated during his all-NBA years. 22ppg, 7apg, 4rpg is nice, but not some unheard of shit. People liked him because he banged on people and did exciting shit while GP just quietly killed.
I won’t argue that Baron is on the same plane talent-wise, but his injuries and lack of big playoff success kills the comparison.
I agree with Mike C: Magic, Oscar, Isiah then GP.
February 25th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
Sheedfan87 says:
no chance for Penny…Baron’s not there yet either but with a few more good years he could be close. Although he’s not the leader GP once was, and can’t play 1/2 the defense of the glove, GP could never score or handle it quite like Baron does.
February 25th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
MC Welk says:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestPointGuards
February 25th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Constable Goon says:
I’d take Chris Paul right now over GP in his best yr in the L. GP is great but he isn’t top 10 pgs all time.
No order:
Stockton (1st in assists and steals)
Magic
Isaiah
Walt Frazier (H.O.F.)
Tiny Archibald (self explanatory)
J-Kidd (the closest thing to Oscar Robertson)
Nash (two mvps and runs an offense waaaay better)
Timmy Hardaway (hands down a better pg)
Lenny Wilkins (H.O.F. and he won a ring in his prime)
Mo Cheeks (H.O.F.)
Hal Greer (H.O.F.)
Oscar Robertson (triple double machine)
I would go as far as to say that Baron, Steph, and Deron Williams will all retire with better career numbers, so go figure.
February 25th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
K-Dizzle says:
actually I can’t let that GP could never score ish slide
From 93 to 03, GP’s scoring averages are as follows
93-94 16.5 ppg
94-95 20.6 ppg
95-96 19.3 ppg
96-97 21.8 ppg
97-98 19.2 ppg
98-99 21.7 ppg
99-00 24.2 ppg with 8.9 apg
00-01 23.1 ppg
01-02 22.1 ppg
02-03 20.2 ppg
That, my friend, is what we call : Elite scoring point guard
February 25th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
fiyaman says:
the problem with GP and with a lot of All stars now a days is that they stay in the league too long.. If GP had retired aft Sonics or even Boston then yes. But now when u say GP everyone is gonna remember the last thing they saw and that wasnt a good GP. Yeah he won a ring in MIA but really how much of an asset was he. Most people are gonna remember him as a guy tugging on someones balls to try to win a ring.
Mailman was almost put in that class but I think he was smart. I tried 1yr with LA and then quit. GP kept going until he got the ring and even then he still cant stay off the radar.
That said in not particular order: (he’s top 10)
MJ
Stockton
Kidd
Isiah
GP
Oscar
Nash
I dont think Baron is that big of a stretch but Penny??? Which one of his relatives mentioned him?
February 25th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Mike C says:
Sigh~
Ok. I won’t even talk about GP’s defense anymore because even the ignorant newbies seem to know about that part of his game.
How about the fact that he has over 20,000 points in his career? How many point guards have done that? Do you even know that he’s above Larry Bird on the all-time scoring list? That he’s averaged over 20 points in 8 different seasons? Y’all still think he wasn’t a scorer???
Sheed: FYI, Baron Davis’ career high in season scoring average was 22.9 GP? 24.2
GP = One of the best scoring PG ever.
Oh yeah, he’s also the 7th all-time in assists too.
Argument closed.
February 25th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
srb says:
Payton could basically post up anyone, even in the last few years you could see the incredible post offense. But he was in his prime like 6 or 7 years ago, a long time really. So people are going to remember the last few years when he couldn’t even hit a 3 and was basically awful.
February 25th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Amar says:
no way that guys like baron, timmy h, and penny are even in the top 10 discussion . . .
GP was a beast. without listing them, he should be in the top 10, and if not, then 11 or 12 all-time. guys like baron, timmy and penny are in the 15-20 range. heck, penny is like in the 30′s . . . career wise he hasn’t done anything. he did have some nice dunks back in ’94 . . . you know, back when grant hill had some hops.
February 25th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
nowwhatyo says:
GP is without a doubt locked in for the HOF, so I don’t think we can mention penny as close to comparable. Baron’s not there either (yet). I think if you were to poll all the NBA point gaurds with this same question, they too would list GP as a top ten pg all time.
February 25th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
ignant nig says:
jose can smoke gp… he sucks
February 25th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Dave says:
Why is this even a matter of debate? GP is easily one of the top 10, and much close to top 5.
February 25th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
gmoneykidd says:
Dennis Johnson anyone?
February 25th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
celtssincehavelchik says:
comparing the glove to boom dizzle is like comparing zach randolph to ben wallace.
February 25th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
tealish says:
I’m guessing you all categorize Allen Iverson was SG right?
Otherwise, the whole list can just be thrown out the window.
February 25th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Austin Burton says:
I’d put A.I. as a two-guard.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
DJ Leon Smith says:
Penny and Baron Davis can be compared to GP’s bowel movements and nothing else.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
LEKEITH TAYLOR says:
Those numbers above are actually very similar to Nash’s, CP’s, and D-Will’s numbers – and they’re all considered top tier PGs. Why can’t the same apply to the glove?*
*And he used to LOCK people up on the defensive end. I don’t see CP locking cats up like that, nor Nash.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
AY says:
Here is the list of players I’d rank ahead of payton:
Magic
O
Fire (isiah)
Kidd
Walt Frazier
That’s it. he would be 6th, and DEFINITELY in front of stockton. Why is it Payton’s fault he didn’t get to play in Utah and live a tasteless life? Do you remember seeing Stockton get close to stopping Payton in their primes? I don’t remember a game either.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Top Gun says:
Of course GP is top 10!!!! He brought the Sonics to the finals.
He’s one PG that was more into defence then putting up numbers for the box scores.
If this was 93, mu’fuckas would be on his nuts. How easily people forget, makes me feel bad for The Glove.
Top 5 all time ! He’s the type of player a coach would love to have on his team.
February 25th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
soydog says:
hell yeah, he is.
1 magic
2 oscar
3 stockton
4 thomas
5 cousy
6 nash
7 kidd
8 payton
9 tiny
10 frazier
February 25th, 2008 at 11:39 pm
aaron says:
gp top ten all-time off one lp. i mean off one nba team.(them other years aint happen, that was lary bayton)
February 26th, 2008 at 2:37 am
UncheckedAggression says:
I was horrified to see that some people at the start felt like GP didn’t deserve top 10. I’m glad the sentiment appears to have shifted somewhat–the numbers say a lot about Payton but not everything. That guy was one of the greatest competitors that I have ever seen. The league was lucky he didn’t have MJ-talent, as he wanted to win just as bad. He brought everything he had to nearly every single game. Too bad he had to deal with MJ in the finals…
February 26th, 2008 at 2:56 am
Triple Threat says:
Also too bad for stock-mailman, Clyde, and Barkley, because this guys had the opportunity to face the G.O.A.T. Too bad MJ was so damn good, and for the smack section, MJ would have made the same dunk LBJ made the other night.
February 26th, 2008 at 3:49 am
tealish says:
I’m not old enough nor am I going to attempt to rank the point guards back in the day like the big O, cousy, frazier, etc. But out of the players I did get to watch, this is my list:
1. Magic
2. Thomas
3. Stockton
4. Payton
5a. Kidd
5b. Nash (don’t overrate Nash. He can ball, but everyone seems to get carried away)
I give Kidd and Nash a virtual tie because they both lack a huge dimension in their games. It’s obvious, but I’ll say it anyways: Kidd’s scoring, especially his jumper; Nash’s defense.
*If you consider AI a pg, he’d without question slide atop of that list.
February 26th, 2008 at 3:52 am
tealish says:
* And actually, Tim Hardaway gets 5a while Kidd and Nash gets bumped down a letter grade.
February 26th, 2008 at 3:59 am
karan says:
GP: my fav player of all time
definately top 10 pg of all time
and DEFINATELY, the best defensive pg ever
February 26th, 2008 at 4:36 am
dagwaller says:
Definitely a top 10 of all time. Don’t know where I’d put him in the top 10, but that doesn’t seem to be the question.
February 26th, 2008 at 6:50 am
YOUNGFED says:
Austin how can you put AI as a 2 guard when the ball is in his hands 90% of the time and he’s the always bring the ball up. You guys are just saying that cuz he shoots alot and thats where coaches tend to play him. AI is definetly a point. If thats the case Magic would have to be in shooting gaurd, small fowards etc…debates. But he’s always in point debates cuz the ball is in his hands 90% of the time.
AI for President…
February 26th, 2008 at 7:17 am
ian says:
tj
penny was overrated????????? hahahahahahahahahahaha
penny got injured he was going to be top 5 ever
payton maybeeeeeeeeeee top ten
some people here have him in front of stockton whattt
all time leader in assists and guess what that stat u all love about peyton STEALSS
ahead of payton for sure
magic
oscar
isiah
stock
kidd
nash
cousy
tiny
and someone mentioned that he won a title
did he really?
yes ill say it because some of u maybe didnt see payton all the time he was OVERRATED on the defensive end he like AI gambled to much to get those steals (unlike stockton). and a prime gp would get smoked by a healthy penny TJ.
February 26th, 2008 at 7:19 am
ian says:
btw
payton would be bumped out of the list when
parker paul williams davis are done
February 26th, 2008 at 8:16 am
Rasheed G. says:
How nobody mentioned Kevin Johnson yet is beyond me.Probably the most under rated PG of all-time.
February 26th, 2008 at 8:55 am
reezzzy says:
Are those conversations that happen in Dime office? Thought its going to be more Inside The NBA than my weekend basketball buddies conversations.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:46 am
vince says:
of course gp is top 10. he’s been one of the best pg’s at BOTH ends of the floor for almost a decade.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Celts Fan says:
to me, GP is DEFINITELY A TOP 10 PG. Let’s look at the list:
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Stockton
4. Isiah
5. JKidd
6. GP (this guy averaged almost 20 and 10 over a few years in his prime and LOCKED DOWN the other team’s best guard. He earned the nickname The Glove and took his team to a Finals and took 2 from the 72-win Bulls)
7. Cousey (like Babe Ruth, a guy that completely changed the game and dominated his era. he’d get smoked in today’s game, but you gotta recognize history and a starter on the greatest dynasty ever -8 straight rings, 11 of 13 – earns you this respect in my eyes.)
8. Walt Frazier
9. Nash (as good as he is, he’s been helped by rules changes that took him from all-star to MVP. despite the 2 MVPs, I say he’s nowhere near as good as GP over the entire scope of his career. Nasty, absolutely top 10, but he’s no Glove. don’t forget fellas, the game’s played on BOTH ends of the floor, GP dominated both, Nash runs shit on only one.)
10. Tiny
I got kind of lazy after GP, so 7-10 can be mixed up, but I stand by my top 6 and I definitely feel like I’m missing someone.
YOUNGFED, the ball’s in LeBron’s hands 90% of the time too, but he’s still a 3. AI’s started at shooting guard next to guys like Chucky Atkins and Eric Snow over his career. that’s clearly a 2, albeit one that operates like a 1.
Baron Davis = not even top 30 ever. All the talent in the world, but he’s been way too injury-plagued to rank over guys who’ve played most of the games they could’ve and hasn’t gotten far enough in the Playoffs yet.
Tony Parker – will not crack this list, ever (though if he stays injury free, he’s over Baron just on the strength of the rings and not being injured for huge chunks of his career.)
Deron and CP3 – umm, Tiny, you might not want to unpack just yet.
February 26th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
TJ says:
“penny got injured he was going to be top 5 ever”
I doubt anyone would agree with you on that.
KJ was the shit, Rasheed. I think he deserves consideration.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Celts Fan says:
Penny had that POTENTIAL, but he still had to continue at that level for another decade to cement it, but he definitely could’ve been. what a shame…
March 8th, 2008 at 2:07 am
Jonathan says:
Part of the reason i wouldnt consider him in the top 10 because his last few seasons were disastourous, look at Kidd and Nash, who both in their thrities, still seem to be playing at a mvp level. A top 10 point guard wouldnt suck as much as Payton does now.
March 9th, 2008 at 4:24 am
Dave Carlson says:
I put Payton ahead of Kidd, Nash and Frazier. He’s up there with Tiny Archibald. Payton was the best defensive point guard of all time. He’s the only guard to win DPOY since MJ in 1988. He’s tied with Scottie Pippen for most All Defensive 1st Team selections. Payton’s offensive stats are comparable to any of these other people’s. He’s top 10 in all time assists and steals. He has more points than Bird. I think Stockton was a more consistent player, but when needed, Payton could step up and control a game in so many different ways – scoring, talking, defense, playmaking, hustle. Nobody played better against Jordan.
People also seem to forget what workhorses Payton and Stockton were. No other guards (including shooting guards) played more minutes or more games than those two. Not only that, but Payton had only about 500 fewer minutes in 170 fewer games. For about a decade, he’s one of those guys you could put in the game and expect about 40 minutes of high level performance on both ends of the floor. You’d have to wonder how high these other PGs would be ranked if they had to play against Payton’s D every night… Far too many people forget that Payton was the best PG in the league for a 4-5 year period.
March 9th, 2008 at 4:27 am
Dave Carlson says:
Also, to Jonathan:
Payton and Stockton are among the few point guards who played past age 35. Isiah retired when he was 32. Magic basically retired at age 31. What if people ranked Magic based on his last year in the league? And he was 2 years younger than Payton during his last year.
August 5th, 2008 at 4:27 am
Dave Carlson says:
Here’s my list:
1 – Magic
2 – Oscar
3 – Cousy
4 – Stockton
5 – Isiah
6 – Payton
7 – Frazier
8 – Tiny
9 – Kidd
10 – Nash
11 – KJ (Kevin Johnson)
CP3 will move up the list if he stays healthy and keeps playing the way he has.
December 7th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Luis says:
There is NO way that Nash should be on a top 10 all time list for PG’s. No way. The guy had 3 great years. It was the D’antoni offense. Before he went to Phoenix, he was 16 and 7 or 8. MD leaves, hes back down to his previous career numbers. I dont think its a coincidence. KJ was definitely better than Nash.
January 27th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
D- dan says:
Nash is way better than KJ hands down.
March 1st, 2009 at 8:43 pm
David says:
This list is just for this era, because i think its imposssible to compare players from back in the day to now. Payton is one of my favorite players of all time, and definitley my favorite point guard of all time, but I give cradit were its due.
1. Stockton
2. Magic
3. Isiah
4. Payton
5. Kevin Johnson
6. Kidd
7. Nash
8. Timmy Hardaway
9. Chauncey Billups
10.Stephon Marbury
Payton would have gotten a ring in Seattle if he had a reliable big man that didnt end up a cokehead(Kemp) or an alcohlic(Baker)
April 3rd, 2009 at 2:41 am
Sangre says:
Stephon “I make every team I’m on worse” Marbury?!? Really!?!?