How Do You Define Greatness?
Is he amongst the greatest? (photo. Chris Sembrot)Over the past few weeks, arguments have popped up in the Dime office over Robert Horry’s Hall of Fame credentials, Stephon Marbury’s place among the greatest point guards of all-time and, of course, Kobe Bryant versus Chris Paul for the 2008 MVP award.
Analyzing all of these arguments in hindsight, it really all boils down to one basic question: What defines greatness for you? When judging an individual player’s career or a single season, how much weight do you give to their team’s success? What about individual stats? Natural talent? Awards? An aesthetic quality to his or her game? How much do you consider a ballplayer’s supporting cast?
Why is Larry Bird universally considered greater than Dominique Wilkins even though ‘Nique was clearly a superior athlete? Why do so many people rank Kevin Garnett ahead of Tim Duncan even though Duncan has a 4-0 advantage when it comes to championship rings? What gives Steve Nash the nod over Shawn Marion when both were just as invaluable to Phoenix’s successful run from 2004 to 2007? Tell us your definition of greatness in the comments…
May 21st, 2008 at 1:06 pm
srb2 says:
Are you kidding? Larry had to shoot lefty to keep it fair.
May 21st, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Mike C says:
Some people actually rank Garnett over Duncan? Seriously?? Wow…
May 21st, 2008 at 1:20 pm
ERIC says:
When thinking about the NBA ‘greatness’ there are definitions but usually the order goes:
1)team success
2)career statistics
3)impact on the court
Horry has had great success but he’s hit big shots. However, it’s usually as a kick-out created by another teammate (only once, in 2005 finals did he create and dunk on the pistons).
Marbury, on the other hand, (let’s forget his mental craziness for a moment – i blame it on isiah), has not had the team success, but has averaged (until recently – again, blaming isiah) 20+ppg and 8+apg being him and only oscar robinson to achieve that feat.
Many don’t remember that only 15-20 yrs ago there were players that were considered ‘great’ because of my items (2) and (3). ‘Nique never won big, neither did Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Reggie, but they were great players.
If you want to flip to the NFL – Archie Manning is always revered, but he was on a crappy saint’s team his whole career.
In today’s NBA (especially regarding MVP’s) team success has been the dealbreaker. If Nash won 2 awards, then JKIDD should have won at least 1 (2003). Best player on the best team should not be the award. It’s the best player who is most important to his team. Dr. J even won an All-Star MVP even though he was on the losing team!
To answer the initial dime arguments – Horry is NOT a great PLAYER, he is a great ROLE PLAYER.
Marbury is a GREAT offensive and unique point guard (speed and strength), but his defensive liabilities (low steal numbers), inability to win and to piss off teammates (KG, VanHorn, whole Suns & Knicks Rosters) will prevent him from being considered in discussion of great point guards even though his statistics would suggest.
oh yea, KOBE was the right choice for MVP.
Just my two cents.
May 21st, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Meica says:
Greatness is all about presence. Dominique was clearly the better athlete, but not the better performer. Bird commanded your attention, and even when he wasn’t lighting it up, you felt his presence.
The same thing is true with Garnett and Duncan. While Duncan is clearly a great player, could he carry a team solo like Garnett has during his career? Does he attract your focus even when he’s on the bench? Greatness is that certain “je ne sais quoi” that you feel about a superstar—a certain unpredictable element that they, “could go off at any moment.” While Tim Duncan may even be a better player than Garnett (I’d doubt it) he doesn’t have that indescribable quality which makes someone great.
Steve Nash vs. Shawn Marion is maybe even a better example. While I think it’s pretty much uncontested that Marion is the better all around athlete, he doesn’t command your attention and change the games whole dynamic like Nash does. To a certain extent it’s how you inspire confidence, how you foster an atmosphere of success, and how you produce greatness in others.
May 21st, 2008 at 1:24 pm
DaPro says:
It depends on if you mean greatness as an individual or greatness on a team
Steph is a great individual talent be he sucks as a teammate
Nique was an extremly gifted talent but he played on any good teams
So Dime are we talking individual greatness or team greatness
May 21st, 2008 at 1:26 pm
DaPro says:
Damn typos all over
But he sucks as a teammate
but he didnt play on any good teams
May 21st, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Jim says:
21/20/10/9 in a deciding game. That’s greatness, and step off of Duncan.
May 21st, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Myrie says:
Greatness is defined simply by IMPACT.
Team success has very little to do with it in my eyes. Other than a championship and getting to the playoffs, all the NBA awards are individual awards.
Championship rings do not make you great. Steve Kerr has 4 rings, John Stockton has 0. Which of those two do you consider to be ‘Great’?
Greatness is about impact and leaving a mark.
Greatness is defined by a players impact on a game, team, season, decade, era and the like. It’s about impact. Impact on the court, off the court, with other players, coaches, fan appeal and the cont’d like.
And its about how you inspire and influence.
“Leaders always get people to believe in them. Great leaders get people to believe in themselves”–unknown
May 21st, 2008 at 1:46 pm
yallallreadyknow says:
stephon marbury?
what business does that bum have being mentioned in a convo about all time greats? what the hell has he done?
please tell me why dime keeps spitting marbury from they lips? how has this talent-waste proven to be better than even…hmm….jacque vaughn?
there isnt even an ounce of great in that bald head, you-getting-in-the-truck, bum. he the biggest waste of talent since 1994
May 21st, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Damon says:
I think the points by Eric are very good. If you look at the nash-marion comparison, they are even in the first two(maybe better career stats for marion). but nash has such a big impact on the court that he is just better than marion.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Mister Sun says:
@ Jim
garnett in a deciding game: 32/21/2/5/4
just showing you cant’t do it with one game.
and don’t tell me it was the nba finals. there it was game 6 with game 7 at home for the spurs. for garnett it was game 7, even more “deciding”
May 21st, 2008 at 2:00 pm
DaPro says:
Dame
You could make a case for Marion having impact on the game as well. Same for AK impacting a game but is the impact great???
Nash also has a negative impact on the game as well as CP3 on the defensive end against bigger pg’s but it doesn’t take away from their greatness as creators.
This topic isn’t clear cut as it seems
May 21st, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Jim says:
I will tell you it was the Finals, it decided the season, not who gets out of the 2nd round.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Ross says:
-Yes, Robert Horry definitely belongs in the HoF.
-Marbury isn’t even a true point guard, so no.
-Kobe vs. Paul for MVP? I have no true answer for that one. I didn’t watch enough Lakers or Hornets games.
-Larry Bird was a all-round better player.
-People rank Garnett over Duncan because they are ignorant, and because Garnett screams more.
-Nash got the rest of his team involved more than Marion did, but each has their own strengths and weaknesses.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Mister Sun says:
But that doesn’t show who is the better player, cmon.
even if you think duncan is better( he is).
May 21st, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Damon says:
I like garnett for his emotions and style of play. but you can’t ignore the way duncan plays and delivers in important games. I was a garnett supporter, but duncan is just better
May 21st, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Jim says:
Mister Sun you are right, I was coming right back to acknowledge your point that one game doesn’t decide anything.
I was just trolled by the KG>TD post before me and let that carry to your post, I apologize for my illogical argument.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:18 pm
DO says:
i doubt many people consider garnett to be greater than duncan.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:20 pm
K Dizzle says:
Really ain’t no right or wrong answer. Greatness is too subjective.Personal impact, team greatness, location, fans. Would Walt Frazier have been an icon if he played in Utah? Is AI a bust cuz he’s never got a ring? Too sbjective. i can give 10 legit reasons why Kobe deserved the mvp, but a CP3 fan will also give 10 legit reasons for him; the same with who’s the better player between TD and KG. Greatness is thankfully not decided by rings cuz some of the greatest players of all time got none or only one. Oscar and Wilt had to go up against Green machine back in the day. For six years, nobody cold beat Mike, but that doesn’t diminish they greatness. It’s a hall-of fame of dudes the Bulls took out: Clyde(in Portland), Barkley, GP, KJ, Stock, Malone, Ewing, Miller, etc. You can’t throw out one game to decide greatness cuz even Willie Burton got 53 and Sixerfans ain’t callin him great. Greatness gotta be sustained, whether you get a chip or not
May 21st, 2008 at 2:22 pm
girlybballluver says:
The Garnett over Duncan argument is ridiculous. It’s because ppl think he’s boring, and general spurs hate. If he screamed, and pounded his chest, or popped his jersey…etc we wouldn’t even be having this debate. He just balls (he gets a lil whinny sometimes) but for the most part he shuts up and plays ball.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Damon says:
I think this is whining on a high level. Duncan is better, he just is. but garnett is one of the best 4s ever, too. duncan just is the best.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Yoooo says:
How does Shawn Marion not have a huge effect on a game? Steve Nash has the ball in his hand 90% of the time, so of course you’re gonna be lookin at him. That was a dumbass comment. Shawn Marion has more of an effect on the game than Steve Nash does. Look at his numbers before, during and after Nash, they’ll be about the same. Look at Nash’s numbers before, during and after Marion. His numbers were much better playing with Marion. And we don’t even have to mention defense, PUH-LEEZE.
O and whoever puts Nash and Paul on the same defensive level needs to be shot…
Greatness has to be defined by your individual stats. Look at guys like Pistol Peete who revolutionized the game, but never won anything. You’re gonna ignore 44 pts. a game (with no 3 pt line)? Pat Ewing is widely considered the greatest Knick of all time, but he never won. Is he not great? Championships put the exclamation on your career. But your stats are the words that prelude the punctuation.
I’m definitely not a fan of Stephon Marbury big Wayne Head ass, so I can’t even understand why an article with greatness as the topic would even include his initials much less his whole name. Unless of course you’re talking about all time greatest over hyped players.
And STEVE NASH IS NOT GREAT!!! Get outta here with that nonsense. His two MVP’s were a testament to the bias that goes on in the NBA. One should have been Kobe’s and the other should have been Shaq’s. But just cuz my homey Kobe went up in the peanut butter of some young jawn they didnt want to give it to him. In the other year they were just suckin Steve Nash and gave no credit to Shaq for propelling the Heat to a middle of the pack Eastern Conference squad to NBA champions. That was wild.
And the fact that J Kidd doesn’t have an MVP is crazy too. Im definitely not an advocate of ANY man who puts his hands on women, but you can’t punish a guy by not acknowledging his obvious dominance on the court (2003). If he’s out there you gotta treat him like everybody else.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Mike C says:
Garnett is no doubt a great player. Probably even top 40 all-time.
But if anyone in their right mind claims that Garnett is a “greater” player than Duncan, he should be banned from posting on this site. I’m serious.
Really, there shouldn’t even be a comparison until Garnett wins about two rings with Boston.
And don’t even start with that what-if argument about Garnett winning championships if he had been on the Spurs. That shit never happened and never will happen. It’s worthless to even think about it.
Duncan won. Garnett didn’t. End of argument.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:46 pm
control says:
Can’t start a conversation about greatness off by mentioning Starbury in the first paragraph. That guy is a loser, has been a loser everywhere he has been, that is the complete 180 of what greatness is.
One way someone could be defined as great is if they’ve had a lasting impact on the game, or changed the entire game as a whole. MJ did it both on and off the court, Wilt did it, Shaq did it, Tim Duncan has done it, etc. Quit dropping scrub losers like Marbury into these conversations just because he’s some crazy loser from NY.
Nash vs Marion is easy to break down. Marion is a player who is amazing when he can feed off someone else, Nash is a person who feeds other people and makes them amazing. Two sides of the same coin, but I’d rather have Nash.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:56 pm
BxBaller says:
@yallalreadyknows and the rest of the Marbury haters.
Marbury averaged 20 & 8 for almost his entire career. No other pg in history has done that except for the Big O. Plus the whole argument about Steph being a loser, there have been plenty of guys who have not won a championship and be considered great. Nique never won a title, and I consider him a great. Don’t let the media persuade your opinion of a player just because they hate him (Marbury, Iverson, Melo) or because they love them (James, Nash, Paul).
May 21st, 2008 at 3:03 pm
DaPro says:
BxBaller
Steph kills his own team thats not a media opinion. Teams get better once he leaves thats a fact brotha. He is as talented as any guard in the league but he is a team cancer. Minny, Jersey, Phoenix, NYC, and the next stop…..
@ Yoooo
You must think that CP3 is a great defender. Watch the games, he has great anticipation for steals be he is a liability on defense. He gets worked out too! Too small to guard bigger players its fact.
It doesn’t take away from either player on the offensive end. Just stating the facts
May 21st, 2008 at 3:03 pm
alex says:
“People rank Garnett over Duncan because they are ignorant, and because Garnett screams more” – hahaha! yeah! and to the person that said KG carried a team ’solo’ – carried where exactly? to the West finals? that means sh*t.
For me, a great player is someone who has done ‘all that they possibly can physically’ + all the other intangible things to make his team win as much as they could. This means being an unselfish teammate, playing defense, inspiring hard work. Of course, winning it all is the icing on the cake.
Luck / destiny / whatever you want to call it also plays a factor here. Garnett and Duncan are both great, but the former hasn’t won anything, and the latter has 4 rings. So Duncan over KG.
Nique had all the athleticism in the world, but he can’t match Bird in rebounds, defense, and tenacity. He dunked and scored all the way to 26,000 points and no finals appearance.
Marion will never have the same numbers he had when Nash was feeding him the ball.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:07 pm
K Dizzle says:
“His two MVP’s were a testament to the bias that goes on in the NBA”
Tired argument
Nobody ever won an mvp because of some bs bias.
Neer seen a 2-time mvp get ripped so much when he didn’t even think he deserved the award. I’m a Laker fan and I didn’t think Kobe deserved Nash’s 1st mvp, cuzif you wanna give it to Kobe then why not Duncan, TMac, Lebron, Shaq-DWade, AI. The point is every season, there’s a player that carries a team and if that dude don’t play, that team is lottery.(see San An and DRobinson in Duncan’s draftyear). Nash made the biggest impact on his team in a season of impacts. The next season, they lose a future stud in JJ and lose Amare for the year and they still win the pacific and the 2nd seed out west. It’s got nuthin to do with who the NBA loves or race or any other junk haters throw out. It’s ball and dude earned it. Check the mvp lists in the l’s history. There’s always another dude that “deserved” it
May 21st, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Damon says:
Reading the question under kobes picture, I wonder where he belongs between the alltime greats. I think it is hard to talk about numbers in general(top 10 of alltime, top 15….) since he is only 29. but you can make an argument for him being the second best shooting guard ever.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Damon says:
thinking about it, there is no argument.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Brandon Hoffman says:
“Why do so many people rank Kevin Garnett ahead of Tim Duncan even though Duncan has a 4-0 advantage when it comes to championship rings?”
Who are these “people” and what have they been smoking?
May 21st, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Brandon Hoffman says:
My definition of greatness is fairly simple.
1. Rings
2. Excellence on both ends
3. Clutch play
May 21st, 2008 at 3:23 pm
yallallreadyknow says:
if KG had four rings and Duncan had none, who would you all be calling better/greater then?
bxballer
u a homer. u’ll be shittin on marbury as soon as dantoni trades him to the italian league. marbury is the BIGGEST waste of talent in the last 15yrs of baseketball—on any level.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:26 pm
DaPro says:
Being clutch doesn’t mean that you always shoot the ball
A clutch player makes the play
Mike made Sterr Kerr famous when he kicked out to him for the spot up jumper against Utah in 97 Finals
Scottie made a move to basket then kicked it to Horace Grant who then kicked it out to Joh Paxton for three in 93 finals against Phoenix
Greatness is making the play or putting the confidence in your teammates to make a play
KG is great, don’t do the man foul by comparing his lack of rings to Duncan
He changed the mindset of an entire team by his play and attitude
Rondo wouldn’t play like this if not for KG, nor Powe, or House
Respect that man for what he is
May 21st, 2008 at 3:26 pm
K Dizzle says:
@ Damon
no argument at all. Countin Oscar as a point, by the time Kobe’s done, it’ll be 1)MJ 2) Kobe 3) Jerry West
@ Alex and B. Hoffman
The problem with puttin rings in any argument for greatness is not takin into consideration teammates. MJ don’t win w/o Pip. Magic don’t win w/o Cap or Big Game. Tim don’t win without Ginobli, DRob, Parker, Horry, etc
“Luck / destiny / whatever you want to call it also plays a factor here. Garnett and Duncan are both great, but the former hasn’t won anything, and the latter has 4 rings. So Duncan over KG.”
So twistin your quote, I get “Stockton and Parker are both great, but the former hasn’t won anything, and the latter has 3 rings so Parker over Stock”
or “Barkley and Horry are both great, but….”
you can see my point
May 21st, 2008 at 3:27 pm
yallallreadyknow says:
brandon hoffman
rings? you are a silly one. rings don’t make you great dear sir. rings are like allstar appearances, good to have, but doesn’t define you.
mehmet okur has a ring (2004 pistons) does that make him greater than patrick ewing?
jacque vaughn has a ring (2007 spurs) does that make him greater than john stockton?
corliss williamson has 2 rings (1994 arkansas ncaa, 2004 pistons) does that make him greater than karl malone?
devean george has multiple rings, does that make him greater than reggie miller?
robert horry has 7 rings, does that make him greater than charles barkley?
see….rings are meaningless in a conversation of greatness. and if you want to add rings into the equation–it certainly should not be #1 on the list.
nuff said.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Mike C says:
@Damon
I was wondering about that same thing too for a while now.
After a while, I came up with the conclusion that he is definitely in the top-20 and on the brink as far as entering the top-10.
The only players in history that you can definitely say had a better career than Kobe’s thus far are: MJ, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Bird, Oscar, Kareem, Duncan, and Shaq. And that’s it.
West, Baylor, Moses, Dr. J, Hakeem and Kobe make up the next tier and no one can really say that one clearly stands above the rest right now (thought about including Cousy or Havlicek in there but I have no clue about how they played, other than their stats).
Another ring this year, along with Finals MVP, should push Kobe out of that tier and put him in the top-10 all-time list.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:33 pm
yallallreadyknow says:
mike c
how old are you? just curious. todays players are still great. but you have 3 current players of today in your top 10.
you do know the nba has existed since the 1950s right?
May 21st, 2008 at 3:34 pm
yallallreadyknow says:
1946 to be exact
May 21st, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Yooooo says:
Yo dumbasses Shawn Marion was an all star BEFORE Steve Nash got to PHX. He averaged a double double leading the Suns in scoring AND rebounding his SECOND year in the league! So F outta here with that his #’s won’t be good without Nash. He put those numbers up with a jock for a point guard running the show. Stop suckin Steve Nash like that. Shawn Marion was/is a ball player before/after Nash. He made Nash look a LOT better than the non athletes he was playing with prior in Dallas.
And for the record Steve Nash took a team with 2 perrenial all stars on the team NO WHERE. When he won the MVP the first go round it was because he and his team brought excitement and showtime back to the league. Not because he had outstanding #’s, because truth be told his numbers weren’t that great his 1st MVP.
You can make an argument that is stamped, certified and sealed with validity that Kobe should have won his 1st MVP in that season Nash won his. He took that SORRRRRRRRY ass, young ass team to the playoffs in the tough ass west and was a game off of sending American Icon (even though he’s canadian) Steve Nash the F home. The Lakers had the youngest team in the league BY FAR and Kobe was there only threat offensively AND defensively at the age of 26. he lead the league in scoring that year and was an all league defender. So YES I feel, and last I checked I am entitled to feel, that he was blackballed from the MVP that year because of his rape charge.
And no I don’t think Chris Paul is the best defender, but I think he’s a formidable one. He mixes it up and puts his nose in there with the largest players in the league and he makes plays consistently on defense. He does gamble, but so did Jordan. Eventually his defensive decision making and awareness will catch up with his offenses.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:45 pm
stephen stepp from louisa ky says:
I define greatness as Cynthia Cooper & Cheryl Swoopes. Hard to believe the Magic and Bird of the Dub were on the same squad…
WHERE MY GIRLS AT?!
May 21st, 2008 at 3:49 pm
yallallreadyknow says:
yoooooo
nash won his first mvp award in 2005. i dont think the lakers even made the playoffs that year.
…and you dare call others “dumbasses”
May 21st, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Mike C says:
@yallallreadyknow
I’m 27, FYI.
Yeah, I’ve only been watching the NBA since 1985 so I guess I’m still a real newbie.
Yes I have 3 current players in the top-10 but what’s wrong with that?? MJ, Magic, and Bird have been deemed all-time greatest at their respective positions when they weren’t even 10 years into their careers.
Name 10 players that can match rings, stats, awards, and memorable moments with Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe. I’ll bet you that you can’t honestly name more than 7.
May 21st, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Yooooo says:
Pardon me champ, I had the year Shaq and Kobe SHOULD have won Nash’s mvps switched around. Simple error, argument stays the same. And im still callin cats dumbasses
May 21st, 2008 at 4:17 pm
alex says:
So twistin your quote, I get “Stockton and Parker are both great, but the former hasn’t won anything, and the latter has 3 rings so Parker over Stock”
or “Barkley and Horry are both great, but….” – why would you even compare Parker and Stockton? are they comparable? Is Tony Parker on mark for being the all time league leader in Assists and Steals? John Stockton is one helluva player because he is small and not athletic and he has more steals and assists than anybody ever will and his FG% is great for an outside shooter.
I’m saying – all things being equal – era, stats, individual awards – a RING or a Multiple Rings clinches one over the other – that’s why i made the case for Duncan and KG. Cmon stop comparing ANYBODY who has a ring to guys like Reggie Miller, Barkley, Stockton.
Common sense instead of just arguing for the sake of argument.
May 21st, 2008 at 4:20 pm
rob stewart says:
this discussion reminds me of the best Jordan commercial that was ever made. The Jordan XIX commercial where John Thompson say “greatness equals greatness”. Anybody know where I can find this?
May 21st, 2008 at 4:24 pm
yallallreadyknow says:
alex
make ur argument make sense. then folks wouldn’t challenge you by arguing for arguing sake.
rings in an argument of greatness makes little sense.
..and if ur argument is rings….then hell….anybody should be able to compare ANYBODY (who has rings). why not?
May 21st, 2008 at 4:25 pm
DaPro says:
@ Yooo
I know the last paragraph was 4 me but who u talking to in the first two?
How will his defensive game catch up when he will never get taller? His problem isnt that he doesn’t try and the same can be said for Nash. They try but they can’t match up with bigger stronger pg’s
May 21st, 2008 at 4:31 pm
alex says:
@yallallreadyknow – sure Vaughn is a lot better than Stockton.
May 21st, 2008 at 4:34 pm
GEE...Old skool plaiyas to new skool fools.. says:
I agree with Ross @ 14. As far as the MVP thing, Kobe got that officially. CP3 was worthy, Kobe was just the more.
Greatness is to varied to define even to one person because it will likely change according to what they witness.
On a wide spectrum I would say greatness is doing what very few can duplicate or accomplish given the same surroundings on a small or large level.
So yes if you can deliver a turd that no one can duplicate, then yes my friend…you are great lol.
May 21st, 2008 at 4:37 pm
johnsacrimoni says:
People argue that the likes of ‘Nique, Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Stockton,etc… never won anything. It’s true they never won championships, and that will always remain a black eye for their careers. However, all of these players were the cornerstones of their respective franchises for many years, produced many 50+ win seasons, and demanded excellence from their teamates. All of these players came close to championships and couldn’t pull it out for various reasons (mainly Michael, Magic and Larry). In my opinion, in order to win a ‘chip you need 2 all-stars and great coaching. Some of these guys didn’t even play with a second all-star for parts of their careers (ala LeBron).
May 21st, 2008 at 4:41 pm
daquest?on says:
u wanna see greatness this is greatness http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv3ltCD39OU&feature=related
May 21st, 2008 at 4:54 pm
yallallreadyknow says:
funny link above in #52.
great stuff
all kobe lovers/haters need to check it out…
May 21st, 2008 at 4:56 pm
Yooooo says:
Yo Chris Paul Is 6′2/6′3 and he definitely isn’t skinny (in fact since college it looks like the young boy is getting chunky). He is definitely stronger than Nash and is more athletically inclined. He doesn’t need to be a muscle bound pg in order to defend other pg’s. I’ve never seen someone just isolate Chris Paul and throw him in the post. That just doesn’t happen. this is the NBA not high school basketball evryone has attributes that work for them. His is speed. Nobody ever said Stockton was too little and I don’t think him and Paul are too far apart in size, if CP isn’t bigger. Bottom line the argument that Chris Paul is too small to defend is dumb. You say it like he’s some lil 5 foot nothin squirt.
May 21st, 2008 at 5:03 pm
daquest?on says:
chris paul is 5 10
May 21st, 2008 at 5:20 pm
MrParker says:
There are only two truly great players as far as I’m concerned. Out of all the positions in the NBA only Magic and Michael put listing any other player as the greatest at their position out of the question.
1. Michael-best player in the league for 8 seasons
2. Magic-Only pg too legitamately be the best player in the league for an entire season(until cp3 came along)
3. Kareem
Larry Legend
The Doctor
*All these guys have reached legendary status. You see their most famous plays and you get goose bumps.
Pre historic era list
Chamberlain
Robertson
West
Russell
May 21st, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Kudabeen says:
Just an a side:
(CP is legit 6ft by the way…he is a little taller than Jameer Nelson 5-11ish and I’ve stood next to Jameer and I’m 6′1…They look shorter because of their builds. Remember they list TJ Ford at 6ft too, but is he really as big as Jameer or Paul? Yet they are all listed at 6ft)
On the topic of Worst defenders and people saying Chris Paul is a liability:
“Tony Parker can beat anyone off the dribble, except Chris Paul. Chris is a phenomenal defender at the point guard position…”
Sean Elliot ~
On the Mike Tirico show today 5/21/08…
May 21st, 2008 at 5:24 pm
DaPro says:
You need a scouting report
Against Dallas everyone said throw Kidd in the post against Paul
Deron does the same
I’m not knocking Paul but damn its the truth. You must be a little dude fam cause you getting worked up
May 21st, 2008 at 5:51 pm
tealish says:
If Sean Elliot thinks and says CP can stop Parker, I’m betting my family on it.
May 21st, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Yooooo says:
O you kno what??? You’re right! I totally forgot JKidd was abusing Chris Paul In the post to the tune of 25/10/8. Damn they beat the Hornets right? That nigga JKidd was lookin like Shaq in his prime out there kid… You dumbass JKidd averaged like 8 pts a game in that series. It takes a lot more than size to be able to post up. Footwork, the ability to feel and read body contact, timing (to avoid the double). There are maybe 3 and a half PG’S with the ability to post up effective and EFFICIENTLY: Billups, Baron, Maybe Kidd, Maybe Cassell.
So if the hornets won game 7 Phil Jackson was gonna tell Fisher to post up??? Perhaps someday TJ Ford will throw Paul in the post since apparently u think CP is as big an 8th grader. That nigga is 6′1 fam. I went to N. Carolina A&T State University, 10-15 min from Wake Forest. I’ve seen the bol up close, oppose to ur view from ur raggedy ass 15 inch “color” tv. And for the record numbnut I’m 6′3.
Im not even a CP fan like that but I just can’t stand dumbass comments. Matta fact “Big Dog” since size is oh so important in post defense how did Charles Barkley ever score on the block against big ass 6′10 athletes at 6′4?? How did Zo at 6′9 drop buckets on the rest of the Leagues greatest and Biggest centers to play the game? Everybody has attributes genius. But the fact that Chris Paul isn’t 6′7 doesn’t make him a liability u numbnut.
May 21st, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Kudabeen says:
I think greatness is measured by your impact on the game…
Someone mentioned presence and I think that was right on. What is you reputation? Do you command double/triple teams? Do you make your team better/relevant?
In a game of 5-on-5 if you have a team where all 5 guys know how to ball together against 1 or 2 guys and some limited role players, then guess who is going to win, but if one of those 2 guys is (insert Hall of Fame name here) then we might have to toss that theory of great teams win games and not great players.
The thing is Some guys get on teams where they have 2 or 3 and some times 4 guys that are Hall of Famers… How can you compete with that? Spurs 1999-present, consistently had 2-3 HOF players on their squad (I’m looking at Parker and Ginobli’s success and predicting they will be recognized as two of the most dynamic ballers period)
57-60s Celtics 3-4 HOFs
70s Most teams had 2-3 HOFers (The Decade of Parity is what they call it right?)
80’s Lakers 3-4 HOFers
80’s Celtics 3-4 HOFers
80’s Pistons 2-3 HOFers
90s Bulls 2-3 HOFers (really two for sure)
90s Rockets 2-3 HOFers (really 1 for the first chip and 2for the second)
2000s Lakers (2-3 HOFers – really 2 for sure)
99-2007 Spurs (2-3 HOFers)
It’s not many teams that can say they have multiple Hall of Fame type players on the court, but the ones that do are the ones getting the Chips. Detroit’s 2004 team was an oddity, because I can’t see any of them really being Hall of Fame players, but they still play at that level together.
I’m not talking about All-stars (Jamal Maglorie, Brad Miller, Tyrone Hill, etc were All-stars) I’m talking Hall of Famers, guys who had an immense impact on the game. Guys that so many people aspired to play like and elevate their games to resemble. Kobe emulated Jordan. Jordan emulated Doc J. Doc J emulated Connie Hawkins and so on and so forth. The connection? All these dudes are Hall of Famers.
People rarely say, if ever, I kinda patented my game like Robert Horry’s…
This is not to disrespect Horry, because he literally won Chips for teams. His defense, 3 point shooting, rebounding and everything he did was just in the nick of time for his teams. This is why he is a cold blooded closer, but the first 3 quarters of the game is where he didn’t perform consistently…
(Hakeem was THE only HOF player on that first Championships team, that’s what makes them one of the best Championship teams ever)
Greatness is isn’t explained or taught…it is just understood once you lay eyes on it…
Garnett, Kobe, Duncan, Iverson, CP3, LeBron, Wade, Shaq (even though I don’t like him), and the few others still balling all shown themselves to be the difference between a team standing at the end of meaningful games as Jokes or Giants…
May 21st, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Kudabeen says:
Yoooo!
Going hard…
I agree JKidd couldn’t matchup with CP3. Deron Williams I think is the biggest match up problem for guards in the league on whole though. Who really gives him trouble? Fish was effective, but he wasn’t stopping him. They only guy I’ve seen match up is Daniel Gibson, but his team doesn’t even develop him to be a pg…
(Side note)
Gibson’s D is underrated. He has a strong base to handle bigger guards on the block and he is very quick and athletic. He is just being poorly developed in Cleavland to JUST be a shooter.
May 21st, 2008 at 6:40 pm
doc says:
Greatness is if you are a great player.It dont got shit to do with the other nonsense.And why are yall talking about Marbury.He aint great except in New York.Dont nobody give a fuck about that 20 and 8 bullshit.And he aint averaging it no more anyway so let that shit be.
May 21st, 2008 at 8:30 pm
DaPro says:
@ Yooo
Oh the name calling b- A wise man told me don’t argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who
So stop with that childish shit, nigga I’m grown
May 21st, 2008 at 8:33 pm
DaPro says:
That’s shits dead its a fact you post Paul and and go at him.
The same knock was made against Kobe, post him up with a bigger two. Thats is Paul’s weakness on d, playing bigger twos.
May 21st, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Ding Dong the Hornets are Dead says:
It’s real simple: It’s gotta be the shoes.
I think you gotta excel and have the killer instinct at both ends of the floor (MJ, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Dr J, Kobe, Joe D, Jackie Moon), with the exception of 2 players who weren’t that good defensively but are great because they played with limitations: Bird and Barkley. One was white, and the other was undersized and overweight.
Mvps, rings, allstar games and other accoloades has too many moving parts to judge individual greatness.
And you can’t be boring like TD.
Robert Horry is the John McLean of hoops in the bizzaro world: right guy at right place at the right time.
May 21st, 2008 at 10:10 pm
Austin Burton says:
I’m not even much of a Stephon Marbury fan, but…
1. His name came up in the post because someone in the office asked was Steph one of the 50 best (or 50 “greatest”) point guards ever.
2. Say what you want about him, but you can’t deny Marbury’s numbers. Until last season I believe, his career averages sat at 20 ppg and 8 apg – which as people have already stated, only he and Oscar Robertson had achieved that.
3. Even with the recent dip, Marbury still ranks 12th all-time in assists-per-game average at 7.7 apg. That’s higher than Bob Cousy, Tiny Archibald, Rod Strickland, Baron Davis, Mark Price, Gary Payton, Mo Cheeks, Lenny Wilkens, Walt Frazier, Kenny Anderson, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, etc.
4. Marbury’s 19.7 ppg scoring average ranks 61st all-time: higher than Magic Johnson, Grant Hill, Isiah Thomas, Walt Frazier, Earl Monroe, Tiny Archibald, Artis Gilmore, Willis Reed, Bob Cousy, Reggie Miller, Chris Mullin, Calvin Murphy, Rip Hamilton, Kevin Johnson, Kevin McHale, Tim Hardaway, etc.
So is Marbury really THAT bad? He trumps Tiny Archibald in both points and assists, and Tiny’s only championship was won with the Celtics, when Tiny was 32 years old and the 4th or 5th best player on the team. (Bird, Parish, McHale, Maxwell.)
May 21st, 2008 at 10:32 pm
daquest?on says:
@ austin u know better than most of us that stats arent everything and also marbury is a proven loser he is a great person(from what ive heard) but hes kinda crazy he has baggage and all that comes into consideration
May 21st, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Celts Fan says:
Greatness is that “it” factor that you know when you’re watching it. If you were a fan of any team that wasn’t the Bulls in the 90s and you’re up 1, 10 seconds left, Bulls ball, you already know how it’s going to end. You could say the same about Kobe. I’m not just saying a guy that will hit all the shots, but the guy that you know will make the big play. Isaih, Magic, CP3, Steve Nash, JKidd are PGs like that (On obviously different levels, but Nash, Kidd, and CP3 have made TONS of huge plays for their teams and won a lot of games over the past decade.) Duncan is a big guy like that, and KG hasn’t been. Arguing KG’s better than Duncan is insane. KG has more all-around talent, but Duncan has that IT. Apparently he found a 3 ball just in time too…
That doesn’t just extend to scorers either. Robert Horry was great on a much smaller, but still very important scale. How many guys have made that many huge shots to win that many rings? Dennis Rodman was great because he was probably the best role player ever. I think the Worm should get into the Hall, but he was literally JUST a rebounder and defender, he was AMAZING at both, but you’re playing 4 on 5 on offense. Dennis Rodman was Ben Wallace, but with funny hair, tattoos, dresses, and was almost certainly psychotic, but that guy would kill himself to win, he just seemed to wanted it more, and he ended up with a handful of rings. Karl Malone was obviously a much better overall player, but he was never great. He notoriously came up small in big moments, which MJ immortalized with the strip that lead to the “last” shot. Rodman would be the guy that would rip the ball from his hands on the boards or lock him down defensively. HE came up big when it mattered in his role, it was just a lesser role than the superstar/#1 option that Malone was. He would never get you 20 points, but he could OWN the glass and lock down his guy defensively. He was GREAT in a less important role than Malone’s. His teams didn’t seem to rise to another level when it mattered.
Shane Battier was GREAT at Duke (and he was great at Duke, he’s a real good role player in the pros, but he was great at Duke, he also has ridges in his head. I fuckin hate Duke) because he just seemed to make all the right plays. that dude took 7 charges a game and and always seemed to make a huge impact on the game in a lot of different ways.
To sum it up pretty bluntly about the ROLE PLAYERS (the great players, Kobe types has been beaten to death and it’s all on point) since I didn’t get to finish the point, but the 2nd half just started: There’s a reason Steve Kerr, Robert Horry, Dennis Rodman, Ben Wallace (the Detroit Ben Wallace, before he got old, was GREAT as a defensive enforcer) have a fistful of rings and have always seemed to be on contenders and Ricky Davis will never be on a team that wins more than 12 games.
May 22nd, 2008 at 2:14 am
kowtz says:
Greatness is defined where:
In 1993 in the Philippines almost everybody knew who Michael Jordan is… But only about 5% of those knew what the NBA was, and who the Chicago Bulls were…
May 22nd, 2008 at 4:57 am
the_don_mega says:
@ kowtz
u got that right!!!
and for me…
great ones never choke…
they thrive on pressure…
KG is awesome…
but he chokes every time around…
May 22nd, 2008 at 8:37 am
Camb0dia says:
simple put rings dont decide greatness, but if there are two people who are about the same skill level, then post season success which leads to rings is the deciding factor. SImply put KG vs TD name 5 moments of “takeover” that each gives, i can name one off the top of my head for KG (game 7 vs Kings) and a large amount for TD (game 7 pistons, the near quad double against nets, game one against suns, .4 shot (yes i know he didn’t hit it, but you guys do know about the shot before hand) when the game is close, you know, more often than not great players are money. good players are not. thats the difference. and with steph, would u rather have him or KJ? Don’t think marbury ever got out of the first round.
its a copout to compare horry with barkely, one guy plays at most 25 games a season with 100% and the other was counted on to score 20-10 most of his career
May 22nd, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Dagomar says:
Greatness is in the intersection of heart and talent.