McHale over Wilt? Pierce over Bird? The insanity of Celts fans
Paul Pierce in Dime #5The closer their team gets to its 17th NBA championship, the closer the Celtics fans in the Dime office get to the psych ward.
First we had the “Fans have a HUGE impact on professional ballplayers” argument, which was sparked by one of Dime’s Boston guys basically saying the C’s wouldn’t have blown a 20-point lead in Game 2 if Doc Rivers had allowed Leon Powe to get a standing ovation. (Further proving how self-important Boston fans are that they actually think they’re winning these games for their teams; they’re “The Big 20,000,” and KG, Ray and Pierce are the supporting cast.)
Then yesterday, before Game 3, I watched in awe as one of our Celtics fans argued with a straight face that Paul Pierce might be the best scorer in C’s history, better than Larry Bird. Getting even crazier, that same fan actually tried to argue that Kevin McHale is “The best low-post scorer ever.”
Really? EVER? Wasn’t there a guy named Kareem Abdul-Jabbar who has scored more points than any player in NBA history? Wasn’t there a guy named Wilt Chamberlain who once averaged 50 points a night for an entire season? And while McHale was definitely a versatile and talented scorer on the block, hasn’t Tim Duncan taken everything McHale did and done it better? Duncan’s 21.6 ppg career average trumps McHale’s 17.9 ppg. McHale did have one Cloverfield monster season where he dropped 26 a game in ’86-87, but he only had four other seasons where he cracked 20 a night. Duncan, meanwhile, has had NINE seasons of 20 ppg or better, and the only time in his career he didn’t crack 20 was in ’05-06, when he played the entire season with an injured foot.
Put it this way: If you’re coaching a game with your kid’s college fund on the line and you need a basket in the paint, you’d choose to draw up a play for Kevin McHale instead of Kareem, Wilt or Duncan? You’re really choosing McHale over all those guys?
Do I even have to post Kareem and Wilt’s numbers and compare them with McHale’s? And what about Hakeem Olajuwon? And wouldn’t Karl Malone also count as a better low-post scorer? After all, he is second all-time in League history in scoring. If only he’d worn green-and-white that whole time, “The Mailman” might have been made Pope.
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June 11th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
jimmhumm says:
Paul is good…Larry is great. Mchale isn’t better than shaq, duncan, dream, D-rob, Kareem.
Boston is strangely very good at home. Good fans do boost your confidence.
June 11th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Chuck...Haters come in all fashions and forms so bear arms says:
Peirce is the most out of shape dynamic Celtics scorer of all time. LMAO!!!
Fat boy needs to lay off them donuts, it’s easy to push people under the basket and score when you weigh more than 95 percent of the people who play your position. LOL!!
June 11th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
DaPro says:
Malone wasn’t a low post scorer. You’re killing your own arguement with that one
Duncan has average more points than Mchale, but McHale did have a better post game (moves on the block)
Duncan better overall player, McHale better post game
Hakeem , GOAT center IMO
June 11th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
DaPro says:
We had the Pierce vs Bird argument, I think Bird is better all around and a much better shooter but Pierce (epsecially a younger Paul) could score with the best of them and I’ve never been a Pdouble fan
June 11th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
jimmhumm says:
Pierce fat? are you serious? Dude weighs 235. Just like luke walton and Vlad rad. I guess LBJ is fat too. By comparison he looks thick when standing beside ray allen who is 6’5″ 205. A bean pole when compared to average sized guys.
June 11th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
fallinup says:
Austin, I see some of your staff over there at Dime should be submitting some pee-pee samples to the lab. Because they are clearly smoking something to be on that mess.
That, or they really need to see things beyond the Boston green.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Chuck...Haters come in all fashions and forms so bear arms says:
@jimmhumm
dude? seriously??
Josh smith is 6’9 and weighs 235, deng is 6’9 and weighs 220, carmelo 6’8 230, Rashard Lewis 6’10 230.
he is a SMALL forward, and he’s 6’7 at that!!!
these people are 3 to 4 inches taller than him with the same weight and same position.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Austin Burton says:
When people call Pierce fat I don’t think they’re talking about his weight, they’re talking about his body shape. You can’t tell me Pierce’s muscle definition (if he has any) is on par with LeBron or Rashard Lewis.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Kudabeen says:
Wilt Chamberlain…
I am really convinced that people just treat Wilt like he is just that huge exception that skews the data, so they ignore him in order to even start to discuss the games greats… His inclusion in discussions about who is the greatest make a lot of arguments silly from the door…
June 11th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
DaPro says:
Chuck
Some dudes body shape is just different, he can ball he isn’t fat but he isn’t ripped either. He ain’t fat, Melo has a similar build but they both strong as hell.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Austin Burton says:
@DaPro — Karl Malone low-post scoring…
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y_yozMkcXFs
(And we have to assume a lot of those free throws were earned by executing moves close to the basket.)
June 11th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
DaPro says:
AB
He was a scorer, he could but the ball on the floor but Malone wasn’t a prototypical PF who scored with his back to the basket
He played in the paint alot but I remember him driving and shooting the baseline J or running the P&R with Stock
Youtube is blocked at my gig fam
June 11th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
johnsacrimoni says:
Austin
That video still didn’t convince me that K Malone was a “low-post scorer”, of course somebody so big and strong is going to get points in the low post but he wasn’t a traditional low-post guy; he got most of his points on pick-and rolls and 12-foot jumpers. \
Paul Pierce is nowhere near fat but he is a little chubby and really has no muscle definition.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
GEE...Shirley got a big ol butt ...OOhh Yeaaa! says:
Greg Ostertag had no muscle definition. I ain’t gone put Pierce on that level now. Dude just built weird or something. He ain’t fat nowhere near his old counter-part. Toine.
Speaking of. Part of me really wants Pierce to get a ring cause I think he would still continue to respect the game and play it right. Matter of fact Toine should just give P his ring, he don’t deserve it.
Funny how sometimes not only can we be homers of players and places but I guess now time periods as well. P-Dub ain’t messin with Bird. Kevin Mc was indeed the bomb but he ain’t messin with so many that were better than him. You can’t even make no “most” or “Best” claim on him when he was a 2 to Bird being 1.
Need a radio dj to offer a cash reward for someone to jack Toine for his ring.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
srb says:
This article is hilarious. the big 20,000. pure comedy man thanks.
Paul Pierce for president. don’t make fun of fat boy too much though, he still handles his business. and his weight only got up that high really during the last two seasons when he injured one of his wheels. you try doing cardio on one leg.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Dime Magazine says:
Mentioning Pierce in the same sentence as Larry Legend is just crazy.
For the McHale thing, I am definitely NOT a Celtics fan, but I was one of the guys in the office who agrees that Kevin might be the best low post scorer in NBA history. As far as footwork, fakes, moves and being able to score with either hand, McHale would be tough to beat.
Malone wasn’t a low-post scorer and Kareem had one truly dominant move and Shaq and Wilt, as great as they were, racked up huge numbers more through physical dominance than actual game.
The only two guys in the argument with McHale should be Duncan and Hakeem.
- PC
June 11th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Ejay225 says:
And you’re totally forgetting SHAQ! Not a fan, but he was a dominant low post scorer… 20+ a night with no free throws and nothing even close to a jump shot.
June 11th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Celts Fan says:
Karl Malone can’t be in this conversation. You choke when it matters, you’re out. Having said that, McHale is below Duncan and Wilt without question (I’m not even going to start naming other names he’s below, just know he’s lower than #3, but he was a PHENOMENAL post player.) For the record, McHale’s one MONSTER season was with him limping around on a bad leg because, “That’s what champions do,” (like Duncan and his bad knee in ’06) which shortened his career and he still walks with a limp because of it. To this day, he still says he’d do it again even though they ended up losing the Finals. He’s not better than Wilt by any means, but he was a great player/winner and a GREAT Celtic.
In terms of Paul vs. Larry, Paul is a better ALL-AROUND scorer because he can actually create his own shot and can drive strong. Plus, Paul will end up with more points than Larry when all’s said and done (people always forget John Havlecheck is our all time leading scorer at around 26,000 pts., well above Larry and everyone else) but Larry was a far better OVERALL player. Better shooter, could defend the 4 (in their primes, McHale would guard other teams’ 3s and let Larry stick the 4) and was far greater as a player (Larry’s top 10 all time, Paul’s maybe top 100 if they hold on to this series, and even then, only maybe.)
Essentially, Paul is really well rounded and can score from anywhere, but Larry was probably the BEST shooter ever. So Larry was greater as a player, but Paul has more ways to score.
It’s all about context, but anyone saying Pierce is better than Larry overall is smoking something, but saying Paul is a better all-around scorer than Larry isn’t too ridiculous as long as the argument is framed right…
June 11th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
The Jed says:
I read two paragraphs and then immediately said, out loud, that Austin is a giant D-Bag. That’s really all I have to say on the matter…
Okay… I’ll say a little more.
I’m not the C’s fan who made the Pierce is a better scorer than Bird argument and I’m not going to either. Bird is a legend. Pierce is an All Star. Nough said.
But the Mchale being the best low post scorer of all time isn’t something that came from no where. Austin, I know you’re only 17 year’s old, but the Mchale argument didn’t come from thin air. That’s a statement that has been said by tons of people – fans, players, and media. Including Barkley who knows a little bit about power forwards. I’m not saying that Mchale is the best power forward of all time or that he’s even the best low post power forward of all time, but I am saying that it is not crazy to say either comment.
June 11th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
MoxWestCoastRep says:
Have you ever wondered how anyone who plays that much ball and runs that much could be over weight?
That blows my mind.
I mean, its your job just to work out and be in shape!!
June 11th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Celts Fan says:
He’s not over weight, he’s just big boned… (real answer, the extra weight lets him use his body and be more physical. Paul is an incredibly average athlete for an NBA 3, so his advantages must be leveraged using his strength, extra weight to throw around is an advantage. Let’s not make it out like he’s Oliver Miller either. His muscle “definition” could best be described as non-existant, but he’s not exactly QRich either)
June 11th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Chuck...Haters come in all fashions and forms so bear arms says:
@MaxWestCoast
LMAO!!! @post20
June 11th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Ian says:
dapro
i think duncan is better at everything than mchale and not even close
June 11th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Mike says:
The Pierce comment seems to be gaining some momentum. By the end of his career he will probably be 2nd all time in Celtics scoring behind only John Havlecick.
As for McHale, maybe they mean pure post moves. I have heard many analysts say McHale had the best footwork/post moves in the history of the game, and Barkley even said he was the toughest guy he ever had to guard.
June 11th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Mike says:
Also, McHale was never the 1st option on his team like Duncan, Wilt, Hakeem, Malone, and Kareem (well most of his career).
June 11th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Rico says:
Kawl Malone was the best to play the game next to MJ himself. There has never been as good a low-post scorer as Malone in his prime. Just wish he could have got a ring with the Lakes his final season.
June 11th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Celts Fan says:
You’re on crack Rico. Karl Malone came up small at the biggest moments. That means he can’t be anywhere close to that. Sorry…
June 11th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Rico says:
@Celt Fan….you wouldn’t be saying that if Malone had been a Celt. Even Jordan made mistakes. They were few and far between for the Mailman.
June 11th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Utes Fan says:
DaPro
Saying Malone wasn’t a low post scorer is completely wrong. Did you ever watch a Jazz game at all while Karl played? That is like saying that MJ wasn’t athletic, or Shaq wasn’t a big guy. For the first few seasons before he developed the jumper, the post is where Karl Malone lived. Later on he added the jumper and played out of the post more. Karl Malone made his living scoring in the post.
If you need proof watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_yozMkcXFs
June 11th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Utes Fan says:
Austin
Funny thing, I put the link to Karl Malone’s 61 point game in my last post before I read all the comments and saw that you had already done it. Well I guess the proof is in the pudding.
June 11th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
DaPro says:
Yeah I watched Malone get his ass busted by Jordan on several occasions. We got 6 rings out the deal family, thanks for asking
Malone was athletic, strong, developed a nice jump shoot and lived by that in addition to the pick and roll
Malone was not and I repeat a tradional low post scorer, he couldn’t really play with his back to the basket i.e Duncan, McHale, Hakeem
The same can be said for Pat Ewing who is known more as a jump shooting Center
June 11th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Rico says:
@DaPro…you don’t know anything about Malone, or basketball, so shut the f up. You should change your name to DaFreakingLoserWhoKnowsJackShitAboutBasketballAndSitsDownToPeeAndWillNeverBeProAtAnything
June 11th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
DaPro says:
Rico I don’t internet beef, you’re a clown thats clear
You called Malone the second best player next to MJ and you say I don’t know about bball
Go catch the short yellow bus
June 11th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
G-man says:
Wilt and Duncan are both very poor fre throw shooters, and Wilt would def not hahve been as dominatn had he played in todays nba
June 11th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Rico says:
@DaPro….FYI, I don’t ride the short yellow bus, I drive the short yellow bus!
June 11th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Rico says:
@DaPro….I may not have the the most basketball knowledge, but I love the game. Don’t forget…knowledge as limits – love does not. It is better to love than to know….follow your heart brother, not your brain.
June 11th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
DaPro says:
Well the slow gene is starting to rub off on you, maybe you should a) drive another route or b) stay away from the slow kids
Never said Malone couldn’t ball, read my post again and this time sound it out
If you disagree cool I respect that but never try to call me out
June 11th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Rico says:
@DaPro…call you out? You’re calling me out homefry, what gives you the right, hypocrite like dynomite!
June 11th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
Diego says:
“Best low post scorer ever.” Great dialogue. I agree with DaPro that focus is on low post scoring moves, rather than the better player.
McHale did indeed have the low post game. (I’m an old guy, so I saw him play a lot–but I can’t comment on Wilt (I’m not that old).) I’d say better than Duncan–but Duncan is a better player. I also think Malone’s focus most of his career was not on the low post.
Now the Dream and Shaq were all about low post moves (although Dream had an outside jumper too) and I’d likely vote for them over McHale; I’d also guess there are others that don’t come to mind now.
June 11th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
Celts Fan says:
another GREAT active low post scorer is Big Al. I’m not trying to throw him into the top 3 (I’d put him there in the NBA now – 20 and 10 last year, don’t forget – but obviously not all time) but I saw him develop and by the time he left, he was amazing in the post. Up and unders, little hooks, fakes, he has a TON of moves. Really fun to watch. Hopefully Minnesota gets a team around him so people outside of Minnesota might get to see him more than once a year…
(defensively he’s horrible except for an occasional blocked shot and he’s not athletic at all, but with his back to the basket, he can put in work)
Hakeem, to me, was the best I’ve ever seen in the post. The Dream Shake was UNBLOCKABLE.
June 11th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
doc says:
I like Keem and Shaq down low.Bird over Pierce all day I dont care how we break it down.I think Malone was a low post scorer and he developed that J later on.
June 11th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
K Dizzle says:
@ post 40
You said it just before i did, but i 100% agree. Al Jeff got some real old-school, fundamentally sound post-moves. Not to pile on the Mailman cuz he is one of the all-time greatest, but James Worthy had more of a post up game than he did. Post-up games shouldn’t just be limited to big guys. Gary Payton was one of the best post players I’ve ever seen. McHale was the truth back in the day tho. He wasn’t the primary option, but dude was efficient. For my generation, it’s only Hakeem. The question we need to be askin is:
Who has the best post-up game today?
June 11th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
DaPro says:
Rico we good brotha but you obviously love the mailman family
@ Celts Fan
Big Al is in the discussion for the players today-He can’t get off the ground but he can score on the block
Melo is good low post scorer
Kidd can score on the block
Sam Cassel was nice on the block but Father Time has caught up to him
Problem I have with people trying to define low post players is catz come on here and say Amare is low post player when clearly that isn’t his game
June 11th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
AY says:
I don’t understand that if we talk about post-scorer how shaq isn’t the greatest of all time. Maybe he doesn’t have all the moves that hakeem had, but he has the “it’s best if you protect yourself” move. Kareem had the sky hook, but wilt was able to block it; shaq’s move worked even if guys threw themselves at him. Everyone knew it was coming, but no one could defend it: isn’t that even more impressive? If you’re judging by who had the most moves, it was hakeem. If you’re judging by who scored the most in the post, it was probably wilt. But if you’re judging by who was the most unstoppable, it was shaq and his one move. Anyway, mchale is behind duncan, top5; not bad.
And in defense of malone; he may be the greatest choke artist in the history of basketball, but he was a low post scorer. He didn’t have his back to the basket, but if you got yourself somehow in the low post and you somehow got the ball in the hoop and you do that consistently, you’re a low post scorer.
June 11th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
Dagomar says:
About the McHale thing . . . .
Statistics don’t help here at all, obviously. Wilt scored a whole lot more points than McHale because he played in a different era and, ultimately, WAS a much better player overall. You can get more points than someone without necessarily being a better player in every aspect of the game. For example, Lebron was the scoring champion this year but Zach Randolph, who averaged about half as many points, is a better in the post. McHale also averaged fewer points than he could have because his team was just that loaded.
Ultimately, all you can go by is McHale’s moves and the opinions of those he played against. McHale was far from the game’s best big man ever – in my opinion, that award goes to Chamberlain – but many, MANY people agree that he’s the most skilled low post player in the history of the game.
Oh, and when people talk about Pierce being a better scorer than Bird, they’re not saying Pierce is BETTER than Bird. Nobody would be that stupid. They’re just saying Pierce has more ways to score than Bird. Bird, while one of the best shooters ever, was not as good at driving to the hoop as Pierce is. I’ll still say Bird was the better scorer, but that statement isn’t that crazy either.
June 11th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Ian says:
diego
shaq has more low post moves than duncan????
shaq has one bully down and dunk
rico must be crazy sayin karl malone was the second best player after jordan
give me olajuwon, robinson and shaq for my team. keep the mailman that if it werent for stockton the jazz woulda never been to the finals.
gman
duncan shoots around 70 percent thats real decent besides why mention free throws here.
June 12th, 2008 at 12:06 am
Ding Dong We Got The 6th Pick says:
Pierce and Bird should never be in the same conversation unless the conversation is that Bird is better than Pierce.
Until this year, PP has been the best player on a horrible team.
June 12th, 2008 at 2:48 am
Austin Burton says:
“McHale also averaged fewer points than he could have because his team was just that loaded.”
I believe Kareem played on some pretty loaded teams as well. Didn’t seem to hurt his numbers. I just don’t see how McHale would rank higher on any scale than Kareem. Some say Kareem only had one move — I say he used one move way more than any other because that one move was unstoppable. Either way, he’s clearly a better low-post scorer than McHale.
June 12th, 2008 at 9:11 am
Celts Fan says:
Agreed Austin, Kareem over McHale no question.
Why am I getting clled out here. “The insanity of CELTS Fans?” I didn’t say anything like that. I agree you CAN make the case that Pierce is a better ALL-AROUND scorer than Larry (I’d disagree, but you can make a case) but I never went all homer on it…
Also, we disregard Shaq (and some people do Wilt) because I think we’re talking more a finesse game down low here (having multiple moves or one AMAZING move a la Kareem and Hakeem.) Obviously if we’re including smashing through people, Shaq’s way up there too…
June 12th, 2008 at 9:21 am
Celts Fan says:
To back up Austin’s point (and cuz I’m loving all the Lakers Celtics throwback stuff they’ve been showing on ESPN)
Kareem’s HOF teammates – Oscar, Magic, Big Game James
McHale’s HOF (or should be) teammates – Bird, Parrish, DJ (only a few years, and he belongs in the Hall for his Seattle work too, the boost he gave the Celtics the few years he was here was invaluable too) Walton (1 yr. and he was washed up at that point)
Kareem’s list is MUCH more impressive. He played with 2 of the top 6 of all time (and he’s in that group too) at some point in his career. It’s amazing how much deeper and stacked teams were back then (I guess 8-10 less teams will do that!)
June 12th, 2008 at 9:22 am
MSkittle says:
I think he meant to say McHale had the best pivot moves in the post which may be true. Even Barkley called him “the best player he’s ever played against.”
June 12th, 2008 at 10:16 am
Rico says:
For the record I hate the Mailman, but respect his game (on the court game).
June 12th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Celts Fan says:
what, you don’t respect his ability to hunt “for little Mexican girls”?