NBA / Jul 21, 2008 / 6:35 pm

The Loser List — Gilbert Arenas

Gilbert ArenasGilbert Arenas, Dime #29

You Play. To Win. The Game. One of the great football quotes of all-time, but one that also relates to every sport once you get past the Little League level. In the NBA, there are some players whose existence revolves around winning. They “get it.” They are the ones — Tim Duncan, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, etc. — who end up with fistfuls of championship rings, and never seem to play on bad teams, even at their career low-points. On the flip side, there are those who never seem to win anything substantial. Talented, yes. Highly-paid, yes. But even if they play 15 years in the League, they won’t grasp what it’s really all about: Winning. Maybe it’s bad luck. Maybe it’s a character flaw. Maybe they just aren’t as good as we think they are.

Who are those players that perpetually find themselves catching more significant L’s than W’s? For the next couple weeks we’ll be calling them out one at a time:

GILBERT ARENAS

Numbers: 26 years old, 7 NBA seasons, 22.8 points per game, 4.2 rebounds, 5.5 assists, 1.8 steals.

Highest high: In the 2001 NCAA Final Four, Arenas scored 18 of his team-high 21 points in the first half and recorded four steals to help lead Arizona to the national championship game in a win over Illinois.

Lowest low: Arenas arguably hurt his Washington Wizards in the ’08 NBA playoffs more than he helped. Still rusty from a knee injury that limited him to 13 games in the regular season, Gil averaged 10.8 points in four games and was eventually shut down for Games 5 and 6 before his team was eliminated.

History of losing
Some call Arenas the ultimate winner — a man who’s constantly beat the odds and fought the doubters on his way to becoming one of the NBA’s best all-around players. Others call him a self-involved gunner who succeeds statistically at the expense of his team. The fact that the Wizards maintained a level of play high enough to earn a Top-5 playoff seed after Arenas went down this past season led many to say that if Washington wasn’t flat-out better without him, they at least proved they didn’t need their leading scorer to win ballgames. Throughout his career, “Agent Zero” has put up big numbers on mediocre to above-average teams: When he finished 4th in the League in scoring in ’05-06, the Wizards finished just two games over .500 and lost in the first round of the playoffs; When he finished 3rd in scoring the following season, Washington was an even .500 and lost in the first round again (Arenas missed the playoffs with a knee injury). He’s a regular among League leaders in turnovers, and despite high numbers in the steals department, Arenas clearly doesn’t lets his defense suffer in favor of being an offensive weapon. And even then, as good as he is scoring the ball, Arenas is notorious for jacking shots. Despite having All-Star talents Caron Butler and Antawn Jamison flanking him, Arenas led the NBA in three-pointers attempted in ’06-07 (his last full season), and finished #2 in back-to-back seasons preceding that. He’s also a safe bet to finish in the Top-5 for field goals attempted. Arenas has hit memorable game-winners along the way, but he also forces a lot of unnecessary shots when his team would benefit more from him being more patient and/or unselfish. Gilbert’s teams have only been out of the first round once, and the one time they made it out (’05), they were swept in the second round. FYI, after getting Arizona to that national championship game in ’01, Arenas went 4-for-17 on the big day in a loss to Duke.

Will he ever be a winner?
You’d always rather have a guy on your team who relishes the opportunity to take big shots rather than one who shies away from the ball in crunch time, but Arenas often OD’s on thinking he has to take the big shot every time; even Michael Jordan passed it up to the open teammate sometimes and used himself as a decoy at others. Arenas has come up big in clutch situations, like when he stuck a game-winner in the ’05 playoffs against Chicago, and put up 36 points and 11 assists in a close elimination game loss to Cleveland in ’06, but he’s also prone to get the blinders going in a big game. He needs other proven clutch scorers/shooters around him so he’ll be more willing to pass. The man can obviously score, but to truly lead a winning team he needs to be more of a passing point guard (just a little more) or move over to the two while someone else plays the point.

The Loser List archives
7/18 — Vince Carter

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  • jid

    this list is gay

  • Bron42 had springs before slamball

    @frankie,
    did you really jsut say dirk doesnt fade in the playoffs? his stats might be ok in the playoffs but he FADES WHEN IT COUNTS…which is why the team HE is the star of choked to death against miami to the point where jerry stackhouse and jason terry had to take over AND he did it again against the warriors. If the mavs are down by 10 against a good team, dirk isn’t the guy who will suddenly just light them up and bring his team back most times. He has YET to prove he plays well under pressure. Hell i don’t think he even has one amazing playoff performance when it matters. Even vince has his epic historic show down with iverson that proved he was a superstar, what has dirk done?

  • frankie

    List of guys that are less of a winner than Dirk (as in, haven’t even been to the Finals to “fade”):
    Steph Marbury
    Jason Richardson
    Baron Davis
    Elton Brand
    Carmelo Anthony
    Ben Gordon
    Luol Deng
    Brandon Roy
    Gilbert Arenas
    Caron Butler
    Antawn Jamison
    Dwight Howard
    Andre Iguodala
    Chris Bosh
    Tracy McGrady
    Yao Ming

    The list goes on. Tons of star players have NEVER EVEN GOTTEN TO THE STAGE at which you claim Dirk has choked. This is kind of a weak argument anyway, considering, again, you need to have won A LOT to even get to that stage! You need to WIN to get there! I don’t care how “clutch” a guy is – if he doesn’t even make it to the Finals, he can’t win it! How can you consider someone a loser that hasn’t had a losing season since his rookie year?! Mind boggling…

  • Bron42 had springs before slamball

    its not really mind boggling, quit being a homer and look at the facts. as i said before DARKO has a ring, so just getting htere doesn’t mean you did it yourself. He is on a loaded team. Not to mention the majority of your guys named have been in the NBA for a shorter time than dirk..dwight howard? Brandon Roy? really? Ya, your not a dirk nut hugger lol. Dirk hasn’t been on bad teams that he had to carry himelf ala tmac, elton brand, chris bosh etc… so lets not make it like he dragged them to the finals and then just slowed down. Hes on teams with other allstars who pick up his slack but come the playoffs NOT EVEN JUST THE FINALS, hes doesn’t come up big. Dirk has never had one of those dig down deep moments and put my team on my back moments in the playoffs. Yes, he has gotten farther than tmac, but tmac is doing it with less AND has never been on the “better team expected to win”..Both times dirk has been on teh better team and both times when the pressure he was on. I really can’t believe you named like 6 guys with barely 4 years experience lol. I mean the mavs are just a better team so their expected to get farther, its not all dirk carryin bums the way tmac,dwight howard,bosh,brand,Melo etc..are. I can promise you Dwight howard will win a ring before dirk. And you don’t care about how clutch? um hello, if your STAR isn’t clutch, chances are your not gonna win.Which is why wade has a ring and Dirk was tasting his own tears the whole summer. Stars can’t win championships on their own, but they don’t crumble either and dirk has on both of his big spotlight moments.

  • frankie

    Ok, where to begin.

    First of all, I’m not a homer – I’m just pointing out the flaws in people’s arguments.

    Second of all, in the Finals, it’s generally acknowledged that the games were gift wrapped to Dwyane Wade – granted, it’s not the first time a shooting guard has gotten a lot of calls and won a series, but let’s not make it like those games were evenly called. In the 05-06 playoffs, Nowitzki (as per usual) raised his stats above his regular season numbers. Final point for THAT year is that Dwyane Wade had a good year before Shaq got there, but despite his Finals MVP and ‘chip, hasn’t done anything to prove himself a winner (not even get to a first round exit a la KG or T-Mac) before or since.

    Third of all, you make it like the Mavericks are some freakin all-stars, and the rest of the supporting squads are bums. But you’re wrong, as usual “lol”. Josh Howard is widely considered the Mavericks second best player, and yet the ONLY accolade he has EVER gotten as an NBA vet is an All-Star nod – in 2007. After the playoffs you’re questioning. Yea, Jason Terry is good, and was good in those playoffs. But that’s the “stacked” team your’e putting out there?! Ha. I bet you root for the Washington Generals, too. It’s laughable that you say that he’s on teams with other All-Stars. In about 10 years, Dirk has played with exactly three players that were All-Stars while he was there: Finley twice, Nash twice, and Howard once. Five other All star years combined, only one concurrently. Hardly a stacked team. That’s opposed to your “weaker team”, the Heat, which featured Dwyane Wade, Shaq, Gary Payton, and Alonzo Mourning, all of whom have more All-Star nods than THE REST OF THE MAVERICKS COMBINED have had, outside of Dirk. Sheez.

    It’s easy to understand how YOU couldn’t understand my point about the other players. Try to follow along. As many people have pointed out about the idea behind this column, there are bums that have won titles, and there are great players that never won. The idea is that there are certain types of players that will always win, and certain types of players that will always lose. MY POINT WAS, as I said a few times in my previous post, that, literally, you NEED TO WIN in order to get to the stage that Dirk has gotten to. You know that you need to WIN to get to the Finals, right? And to get to the Conference Finals? Even to get to the playoffs, in the Western Conference, you need to WIN a lot more than you lose. The other players I’ve listed are within 5 years of age of Gilbert, so even though I don’t expect them to have won anything significant, they’re in the topic because this is trying to identify players that WILL NEVER win anything, because that’s their type.

    Again, you point out that players play with bums. So T-Mac playing with Yao doesn’t count? Brand playing with Kaman and Cassell doesn’t count? Howard playing with Hedo and Shard doesn’t count? Melo playing with Iverson and Camby doesn’t count?

    These were just EXAMPLES. It’s ok if you read between the lines when people make points like that – be a big boy. I was just saying that in the end, they haven’t won as much as Dirk has. I’ll make the same argument for Nash, Kidd, AI, Malone, Barkley, etc. As much as it would make your argument easier, there’s no nut hugging going on here.

    Keep on lolling.

  • K Dizzle

    This loser list is gonna get messy. You got Vince, then you gotta have T-Mac…and Ray, P-Double and KG woulda been on this list if Atlanta had shocked the world.
    You got Gil, then you gotta have Caron and Jamison. This list needs to be more specific cuz if you ain’t played with Shaq, Timmy or was a Piston in the last 10 seasons, you could end up on this list.
    On the flipside: Are Antoine Walker or Darko Milicic not losers cuz they rode coat tails to a chip?
    Dime needs to tighten up the list of what a loser is. Arenas is a bad example with all the choices y’all got cuz he’s still on the fresh side of 30 and he hasn’t quit on his squad, hasn’t asked for a trade and hit big shots in the playoffs. If he’s a loser, then Joe Johnson, Pau Gasol, Tyson Chandler, JRich and Battier, Richard Jefferson, Zach Randolph, Dalembeast, Gerald Wallace…Matter fact everybody from the Draft class of 2001 except for Tony Parker and Mehmet Okur might be labelled a loser. Y’all gotta tighten this list

  • Bron42 had springs before slamball

    lol there ya go, your argument is alil better, still funny and laughable but funny.

    First off, yes, you are a homer

    second, dirk has gotten phantom calls too. The simple fact is wade made it his point to force the issue to get those calls. I mean hell, if dirk has just hit those shots, we wouldnt even be havin this conversation. And you still left out the warriors series. As for wade, he won when he came into the league, got a chip and a mvp. So you cant really say “oh outside of those he hasn’t won anything” considering hes been hurt, he did get knocked out in the first round the year before last.

    third, this argument alone proves your a homer. By stacked I meant well built. The spurs aren’t stacked if your goin by allstars either but as a overall unit thier better than most teams. And that being said dirk played with nash and josh who you said were both allstars and won what? so two other allstars and didn’t get it done? two allstars in their prime? You menton shaq,Gp, Zo? they were all past their primes when they played with the heat, not the same thing. Thats like if ewing came out of retirement right now and still countin him as allstar teammate. Terry has proved he can play and has experience, jerry stackhouse has experience, devan george has experience. So even comparing the NON-ALLSTARs on the team, to other supporting casts, the team still counts as stacked. Did i say the mavs had a alltime great team? no but they had vets who could still play and had experience. The head had GP who pretty much did nothing, walker who did nothing for the most part etc..Not to mention, 4 guys, 3 of the 4 past their prime still took apart the better overall team 4 games straight. Lets see a real superstar let that happen when he has 2 game sealing foulshots at the end.

    fourth,
    Keep up? try and make sense. Your menting guys like brandon roy in the same conversation as agent zero and dirk? hes been in the league what? 2 years? even if he is within 5 years of gil, no one would expect him to have won anything yet.So you can’t just say “oh hes the type to never win” since you don’t kno what him or the team will evolve into. And yes, you have to win to get to that point. Melo has made the playoffs almost every game of his career (more than lebron) and yet people say he is a loser. Point being, getting there is great but it doesnt matter if u don’t win. The mavs had the best record in the nba and choked it away in the first round. So great, he got his wins and then once again choked on the big stage. Tons of wins don’t matter if you never win the big one. Ask the patriots. No one wants to keep bein the brides maid. So ultimatly he still is a loser. Even more so since he isn’t single handedly carrying the mavs. If tmac has a bad game, its pretty much a given the rockets lose. Same with dwight howard. Same with chris bosh etc…There have been PLENTY of times dirk has sucked balls and jerry stackhouse comes in to drop 25, or terry goes for 30 or howard has 25+.

    And yes, tmac playing with yao would count as bums. Yao is hurt alot, and like dirk, is known for giving you good numbers but never when they need it. Yao, just like dirk, isn’t the guy your going to with the game on the line. besides yao was out 75% of the season and tmac still made the playoffs and made it a series. The mavs on the other hand got rapped by a inexperience team with only one star. And even if yao was like hakeem the dream and just scored bucket after bucket to bring his team back, the rest of the team is STILL bums. Is jason terry better than bobby jackson or skip? Is stackhouse at least even to battier? You mention brand like kaman is a stud or cassel is young and those 2 alone make the team good? Again you mention dwight, when A)he makes the playoffs, b) hes young as shit c) this is his first year with rashard and hedo has only been good the last 2 years d)yes, outside of those guys, who on the team does anything? nelson? bum. battie? bum. Foyle? bum. Dooling? Mo evans? JJ? Arroyo? should i keep going? is anyone here a big piece to the puzzle? so ya they have teams full of bums. Melo and iverson and camby? k great, what about bench depth? ever heard of that? what about skilled role players? they don’t count? thats the big difference your ignoring. Unless your jordan, a superstar surrounded by barely servicable guys isn’t going to win much as opposed to superstars with legit guys put around them, ala dirk, duncan, and now kg. The teams your comparing them to are good teams, their not really contenders. The mavs were supposed to be contenders but dirk falls apart (and seriously, everyone from steven A smith, to ernie johnson have said it so dont sound so surprised) that he is mentally weak. Same with nash/amare. Its great that they makes the playoffs exciting every year but if they fizzle out ALL THE TIME their still losers based on dimes standards. So ask the suns what great regular seasons amount to and crappy playoffs account to..jack shit. dirk could avearge 60 wins a season and if he gets beat by lesser teams in the playoffs, which is where supstars are supposed to take over..well how much of a superstar is he. Guys like iverson and tmac take over games when their down, even if their team still loses. Usually when the mavs start losing dirk is completely thrown off his game.

    Keep postin funny arguments and i’ll be happy to lol all day. I mean i understand your a dirk nut hugger, and all of us here are ok with that. but at least make your arguments alil better than comparing guys in the league for about 9 years to guys in the league 2 years and going “oh well he has won more games than this guy”

  • frankie

    You don’t even know where I’m from, so how can you say that I’m a homer? As I said, I would go to bat for a few different players from all over the League/world, so I don’t see where you’re coming from with that.

    Wade has made the most of his ability, and always goes balls out. No disrespect to him. My point is that his team was not “the weak team”, and were it not for those weak calls, he wouldn’t have won the championship. When they were in those Finals, Dirk was the only All-Star on the team, as a sub. Meanwhile, Shaq and D Wade started the game. Furthermore, Shaq AND D Wade made All-NBA teams that year (first and second teams respectively). The only player from the Mavs? Dirk. Dirk has NOT had great teams like you make them out to be, any way you slice it. I take back what I said before – Dirk has NEVER played with two All-Stars.

    So you’re saying that everyone that has never won a championship is a loser? So Ewing, Malone, Barkley, and other members of the NBA’s 50 greatest players of all time are losers? Hm. Curious. The loser list is going to get REALLY long if we let Bron have his way. Next up? The Patriots, apparently.

    Please check the scoring averages for the Mavericks you’ve listed. I think all of your nut hugging jokes must be getting to your head, because the number of times you’re suggesting they score 25+, their scoring averages would probably be…well, over the 19.9 Howard scored this past season (12.6 in the playoffs), the 10.7 Stackhouse scored (6.2 in the playoffs), or the 15.9 JET scored (15.8 in the playoffs). BTW, despite your claims of not showing up in the big time and of not carrying a scoring load, Dirk scored a team high 23.6 during the season, then raised that average to 26.8 in the playoffs. It’s not his fault that it’s becoming more and more of a small man’s league. Run at the basket, jump, and hope to get the call.

    Ok, I’ll drop Roy from that list of players. From there, I still have a dozen players AND COUNTING, btw, that have been in the league for a little while now, and with the same quality of supporting cast (read the paragraph where I told you AGAIN that Dirk hasn’t had the greatest supporting cast) have done much, much less. In other words, put Dirk in the toughest division in the toughest conference with a decent team, and all he does is win.

    You call ME a homer, but all I’ve done is shown again and again with facts that Dirk is a winner. Sounds like someone else has a bias for some reason.

  • Truth is told

    Gil is damn funny, definitely a fan favorite, but he’s clearly not a winner. He relies to much on talent and self-confidence, even if his shots don’t fall. Doesn’t share the ball enough, and then, he turns it over waaaay too much. He reminds me of Stevie Francis back when he was still Da Man with the Rockets. A flashy player loved around the league, but not a player a GM can build around.
    He tries hard, that’s obvious, but he does not need to bend it like John Mc Clane.
    The Wizards are clearly the opposite of the Spurs: no discipline, no real leadership (and I ain’t talking about an Arenas-type of leadership, he has clearly charisma, but he doesn’t inspire respect like Duncan)
    While Duncan is a proven winner who can keep TP & Ginobili in line, Arenas keeps playing out of his mind and getting his numbers. But then, he doesn’t make his teammates better. (cough…kobe…cough)
    With Stevenson and Nick Young on board, this team is going nowhere as a NBA professionnal team.

  • Big Shot Rob

    The whole Sacramento Queens starting five (’02 playoffs) should be on that loser list.

    Divac, C.Webb, Peja, D. Christie & M. Bibby

    Sounds now like a huge team of bums, right ?

  • larry brown

    gill where is nick young going to live since you sold the from under him nick young is homeless in dc help nick young to fine a place to live

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