NBA / Jul 21, 2008 / 6:35 pm

The Loser List — Gilbert Arenas

Gilbert ArenasGilbert Arenas, Dime #29

You Play. To Win. The Game. One of the great football quotes of all-time, but one that also relates to every sport once you get past the Little League level. In the NBA, there are some players whose existence revolves around winning. They “get it.” They are the ones — Tim Duncan, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, etc. — who end up with fistfuls of championship rings, and never seem to play on bad teams, even at their career low-points. On the flip side, there are those who never seem to win anything substantial. Talented, yes. Highly-paid, yes. But even if they play 15 years in the League, they won’t grasp what it’s really all about: Winning. Maybe it’s bad luck. Maybe it’s a character flaw. Maybe they just aren’t as good as we think they are.

Who are those players that perpetually find themselves catching more significant L’s than W’s? For the next couple weeks we’ll be calling them out one at a time:

GILBERT ARENAS

Numbers: 26 years old, 7 NBA seasons, 22.8 points per game, 4.2 rebounds, 5.5 assists, 1.8 steals.

Highest high: In the 2001 NCAA Final Four, Arenas scored 18 of his team-high 21 points in the first half and recorded four steals to help lead Arizona to the national championship game in a win over Illinois.

Lowest low: Arenas arguably hurt his Washington Wizards in the ’08 NBA playoffs more than he helped. Still rusty from a knee injury that limited him to 13 games in the regular season, Gil averaged 10.8 points in four games and was eventually shut down for Games 5 and 6 before his team was eliminated.

History of losing
Some call Arenas the ultimate winner — a man who’s constantly beat the odds and fought the doubters on his way to becoming one of the NBA’s best all-around players. Others call him a self-involved gunner who succeeds statistically at the expense of his team. The fact that the Wizards maintained a level of play high enough to earn a Top-5 playoff seed after Arenas went down this past season led many to say that if Washington wasn’t flat-out better without him, they at least proved they didn’t need their leading scorer to win ballgames. Throughout his career, “Agent Zero” has put up big numbers on mediocre to above-average teams: When he finished 4th in the League in scoring in ’05-06, the Wizards finished just two games over .500 and lost in the first round of the playoffs; When he finished 3rd in scoring the following season, Washington was an even .500 and lost in the first round again (Arenas missed the playoffs with a knee injury). He’s a regular among League leaders in turnovers, and despite high numbers in the steals department, Arenas clearly doesn’t lets his defense suffer in favor of being an offensive weapon. And even then, as good as he is scoring the ball, Arenas is notorious for jacking shots. Despite having All-Star talents Caron Butler and Antawn Jamison flanking him, Arenas led the NBA in three-pointers attempted in ’06-07 (his last full season), and finished #2 in back-to-back seasons preceding that. He’s also a safe bet to finish in the Top-5 for field goals attempted. Arenas has hit memorable game-winners along the way, but he also forces a lot of unnecessary shots when his team would benefit more from him being more patient and/or unselfish. Gilbert’s teams have only been out of the first round once, and the one time they made it out (’05), they were swept in the second round. FYI, after getting Arizona to that national championship game in ’01, Arenas went 4-for-17 on the big day in a loss to Duke.

Will he ever be a winner?
You’d always rather have a guy on your team who relishes the opportunity to take big shots rather than one who shies away from the ball in crunch time, but Arenas often OD’s on thinking he has to take the big shot every time; even Michael Jordan passed it up to the open teammate sometimes and used himself as a decoy at others. Arenas has come up big in clutch situations, like when he stuck a game-winner in the ’05 playoffs against Chicago, and put up 36 points and 11 assists in a close elimination game loss to Cleveland in ’06, but he’s also prone to get the blinders going in a big game. He needs other proven clutch scorers/shooters around him so he’ll be more willing to pass. The man can obviously score, but to truly lead a winning team he needs to be more of a passing point guard (just a little more) or move over to the two while someone else plays the point.

The Loser List archives
7/18 — Vince Carter

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  • Willis

    do Chris Webber next.
    Or Dirk.
    or Karl Malone

    or Shareef haha. He is on their no questions.
    Tmac is a good choice too.
    Jason Kidd.

    lots of names to choose from.

  • frankie

    Hard to put Malone, Dirk, or Kidd in there when they’ve been to the Finals and the Conference Finals soooo many times, not to mention their MVPs. Their teams probably have better records than a lot of “winners”.

  • CJR

    Steve Nash
    A.I.
    Grant Hill
    The list goes on and on

  • POINTFWD13

    Does this list include all-time or current players only?

    ‘Cause the list could go on and on……ha, Losers!

  • http://www.myspace.com/carli_borikua4life daQUeSt?oN

    @ cjr iverson is not a loser, he is a great leader and a very good player he just has bad luck and he has been on bad teams

  • http://www.myspace.com/carli_borikua4life daQUeSt?oN

    plus i dont think carrying that 01 sixer team to the nba finals is being a loser. with that being said arenas is a total loser, he always looks 4 his shot, he takes bad shots, and he barely passes

  • Dagomar

    Meh I don’t like putting Arenas on here. The guy’s only 26, not nearly old enough for his career to be put into focus. Also he’s been hampered by a nagging injury for a year and a half now, so that time really shouldn’t count. He’s also been one of the league’s top-five or so clutch players. Plus his team was doing real good before he went down with that injury (first in the East). So to call him one of the league’s big losers is a big of a reach.

  • frankie

    Yea, daquestion, AI and Nash are both on the “Have won a ton, not to mention MVP” list – I can’t really understand anyone calling them losers.

    Dagomar, I kind of agree with you on Arenas, but I’m a Wizards fan, so I’m staying out of it for now.

  • K Dizzle

    This might be a reach. Any player who comes from a 2nd round pick then works on his game to become 1st team all nba is hard for me to put as a loser, especially at 26 yrs old. You gotta stick with dudes who are past they prime so we know how their career was.

  • JOB33

    Uh oh Dime done called out the Gil-ly Suit. Get ready to get 60 bombarded on ya’lls heads.

  • JOB33

    He gets his because ppl say he can’t. Maybe now he’ll start gunnin’ for a championship since ppl say he can’t.

  • J-Dot

    Dime, it appears premature to label this particular player as a loser. He’s at least 4 seasons away from entering the twighlight of his highly competitive run as an NBA player, so he’s still in a strong position to turn it around. I can easily understand VC being on the list, but Gil hasn’t fallen into the “still very good, but pretty much done” category like a number of other players out there. I’m surprised a player like T-Mac didn’t pop up on the list before Arenas. What about Marbury? Not sure about it, but I don’t remember him doing a ton of winning. Great numbers career-wise, but…

  • Spliff 2 My Lou

    As Bron42 pointed out in the VC Loser post, it would seem every “franchise” or star player without a ring is a loser. So maybe its easier to list the winners among active players.

    Remember all it takes is one season to change a player from the loser list to the winner list. After all KG, Pierce, and Ray were on the loser list until about a month ago.

  • Bron42 had springs before slamball

    thats the first time someone actually repeated my post in a good way lol..

    See for me, I think losers have to choke. Not just allstars on bad teams because that can be anyone and only legit TEAMS win rings, not always the greatest player. Kobe is supposedly the best player alive for the past few years and couldnt even get out the first round until now. Now is that because kobe is a loser? or because he had a sub par team. I’d put chris webber as a loser since he never seem to come up big in the tough moments. Same with dirk who seems to be always on the “better team” and then fizzles out when the pressure is on his back. Like people were saying tmac, meanwhile tmac sorta falls into the kobe area of puttin up crazy stats but team disappears on him. So ya, I’d stick with guys like webber, dirk, peja (kings/hornets fans HATE the way he always disappears in the finals) marbury, etc…guys who either ruin a team or just don’t show up in big games.

  • nick

    i wouldn’t put arenas as a loser this early into his career. also as kdizzle said, he came from a 2nd round pick to an all-star in the league. he is nothing like vc who was on a winning team and then started losing so he wanted out instead of putting in work to make them a winner again. that is the definition of a loser right there.
    only time will tell how he is percieved in the next few yrs be it he a winner or loser.

  • Top_gun

    When they say loser list, they mean players you just know would never win a championship. Those players are:
    VC, Marburry, McGrady, Ron Artest, Jason Richardson players of that sort.

  • Top_gun

    Why are the shoes you guys give away are always size 9 ?Whose the small feet fool who keeps buying size 9 ?

  • Promoman

    I wondered about Vince making the list and now I wonder about Gil being on the loser list. He had hardscrabble circumstances, he warmed the bench and he endured. He didn’t let them prevent him from succeeding. He wants to be great and he’s shown he’ll work to be so. If anything, he’ll be more inspired by this if he catches wind of this y’all’s loser list.

  • cjr

    If you ask any player in the league what does it mean to b a winner dey will say winning da chip not a mvp title trust me ai and nash would trade those mvp trophys in for a championship in a heartbeat

  • Tha Boddy

    I agree with almost all the other posters on the point about Agent Zero (DMV Hero) being on his list. First of all he is only 7years into his NBA career. Second even though he has 2 allstar caliber teammates they are not clutch shooters (Yeah Caron hit some game winners but he is not clutch cause he missed easy shots also)Third he turned around a losing team and made them playoff caliber period. Forth everyone talks about how the Wizards did better without him and they are FLAT OUT WRONG. The Wizards did well without him but there were plenty of games where they needed his all around offensive talents to win games and nobody could step up at all. People say Gilbert is selfish for coming back for the playoffs but hey if he did’nt play at all the people would say hey he was healthy and just sat out. Gilbert Arenas is going to get his and the doubters will need the use of their hands to see if they feel their own face!!!

  • cjr

    The jury is still out on gil and da others mention lets just wait til dey retire then we can tel who the losers are

  • Luigi

    WTF!!!!! GILBERT ARENAS IS THE ULTAMITE WINNER! wtf. watch this. yr hes gonna be baller

    IT SHUDA BEEN T-MAC next!?!?!?!?!?!?!

    WTF!?!?!?!?!?!

  • Luigi

    THIS SO WRONG IN MANY WAYS!!!!!!!

    i am the ultamite Gilbert Arenas fan. he is sick he shouldnt be criticized JUST for his Performance this year. u ARE DEAD WRONG!

    watch

  • the_don_mega

    A.I.??? loser??? no freakin’ way… the guy with hte most bad luck in the L prolly… but never a loser.

  • Bron42 had springs before slamball

    plain and simple, losers are
    a)guys who kill their teams because of ego “vince/marbury”
    b) guys who fad on the biggest stages “dirk/webber”

    you cant just call any guy who doesn’t have a ring because then 90% of the nba is a bunch of losers. Thats like saying benard king was a loser or dominique wilkins jsut because them and their team of nobodies couldnt beat ALL TIME great teams. I mean darko has a ring, is he instantly not a loser while tmac is or did he just luck onto a team that was already loaded. Not every organization can build dynasties, thats whats supposed to make them special. FUnny how KG wins goes to the conference finals the one year he has help, and wins a ring the next year he gets help. But people wanted to call him a loser for not winning when his teams were built around him and bums. Thats why I’m harsher on guys like nash and dirk who have stacked stacked STACKED teams and still dont win shit. I mean you talk about Gil as a loser meanwhile he went from no name second round pic, to making the wizards relavant, being a allstar, hitting clutch shot after clutch shot etc..but because he runs into better teams in teh playoffs, hes a bum?

  • jeremy

    this is bs. gils the man. he completely turned the wiz around and is the only player good enough and aggressive enough on the team to score when they need it most. DMV stand up

  • http://psinapticapotheosis.org Amar

    Tmac is immune because Austin likes him.

  • drock

    seriously, wtf?? of all the ppl to pick for this list, you guys go w/ arenas?? i mean i’ve been reading dime online for about a year now and most of the time you guys seem real on point and professional, but every now and then you come w/ some real stupid sht like this. i mean even vince was a questionable first choice cuz he’s still playing. chris webber, helloOOoOooOO???? how old are y’all?? y’all name drop old school players that i’ll readily admit i know jack about, but seriously…some of the stuff you all post is ridiculous. putting a player who may not have even hit his prime yet on a loser list??? get real dudes!!! man, i wanna keep going. the wizards damn near had lebron two years ago. gil’s bombs helped make that year’s playoffs one of the best ever! i mean if lbj wasn’t as strong as he is, the wiz would have been moving on that year. gah!!! seriously, of all the players to pick from, you guys go with a young one who ain’t even close to calling it a career.

  • doc

    Yall threw a screwball with this one.Gil only 26 he aint a loser yet.His team loses to Bron what can he do about that.He not overated,nobody puts him in the top5 he promotes his dam self.He a great scorer and he the main attraction of a playoff team now if his team record drop off or they dont get past the second round at least in 3 or 4 years yall can throw that loser tag around.

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    I wish T-Mac was immune. But facts are facts; he hasn’t won in the first round yet, so his day in this space is coming.

    As for Arenas, he is the kind of player who I don’t ever see winning a title despite putting up big numbers. Whether this article was written when he’s 26 or 36, I don’t see it changing much.

  • jeremy

    there is a huge difference between not winning a title and being a “loser.”

  • SparkyJ23

    HOW THE HELL IS CHRIS WEBBER NOT THE FIRST ON THIS LIST?

  • Big Daddy

    Exactly what Jeremy said. You guys need to define what your basis for a looser is.

    Can you really put Gil in the same class as Steph, vince?

    What about some ‘loosers’ that have actually won a chip through no fault of their own…

    Would the Celts still have won if you replaced Pearce for Vince? Or would vince have ruined too many games for them and that is what makes him a looser…

    BD

  • Willis

    @ frankie

    if they haven’t won a cahmpionship, then they are losers. If they have been their repeatedly, then that means they fade on the biggest stage a lot. Like Malone. Like Kidd. Like Ewing. Dirk especially. I still say Cwebb did all he could in game 7 vs LA but him and Bibby weren’t good enough to beat Kobe and Shaq by themselves. Honestly, almost every big NBA game Webbs been in and lost can not be blamed entirely on him. Game 7 in 2004 vs Minnesota. Peja had 8 points on 3 for 13 shooting. Granted, Webb was only 16 and 8 with an in-n-out 3 at the buzzer, but hey. Hell, theyre both losers. This from a Kings fan too.

  • D

    Gil’s going to be a loser unless he changes his outlook on things. Me first, I’m better than you, I deserve X amount of dollars, I’m going to be my own agent, I’m going to hog the spotlight, etc. Those are all tell-tale signs of a loser to me. Again, basketball is a team game. He could have sacrificed some dough on his contract and allowed the Wiz to stay competitive in the coming years, at least in the free agent market. Shore up that bench. But it’s Gil first, and while he’s entertaining, hilarious, and does some cool stuff, his own ego will be the death of him. [Just think about all the USA basketball stuff that happened a few years back; clearly he wasn't a team player then either]

    Guaranty dude will be looking for a trade in the coming years because the Wiz can’t make a free agent move to make the team better. and they won’t be able to do it because of Gil’s grossly overweight contract.

    So yeah, he’s only 26, but dude will be a loser. Yeah, he might be a hero and a winner to the everyday dude, or the unhyped prospect that gets picked up in the second round, but he’ll be a loser by NBA standards.

  • imperial-mel

    Arenas is the new badass of the league, he talks trash, backs it up, and demands money. The one thing that is holding him back is that hes not producing any championships, or solidity in the league other than on the aspects just mentioned…

    I might aound like an idiot, but is there any teams that have not won any championships other than Charlotte in the league??

  • fiyaman

    its about time someone called out Gil for what he is.. just b/c u dont win a ring doesnt mean ur a loser.. a loser is done case-by-case..it depens on ur position and what u do for ur team..

    (example.. Gil is a PG and the leader of his team.. as a PG its ut job to make ur teammates better, control the game, and get everyone else involved.. Gil does none of that so he’s a loser.. If he played SG and did the same thing he does now then I might consider him to be better but as a PG noway..)

    Another example TMAC: he is SG and hs job is to score and carry the team.. He does all that and more.. his asisst avg is probably better than Gil.. its not his job to control the game(PG) not his job to get others involved(PG).. but he can do all of this and he ALWAYS steps his game up when it counts..(just cause he doesnt win doesnt mean he didnt try.. i think he has the highest increase in pts from the regular season to the playoffs so he steps his game up when it counts he just needs a better PG (someone who is gonna control the game and make the team better.) TMAC has NEVER lost to a 1man team.. Even when he goes up against Kobe. Kobe might outscore him but he usually wins.

    The Wiz would be better if he played SG and had Daniels run the point bbut Gil would probably bitch about not getting the ball enough.

  • fiyaman

    @Austin I agree Arenas is a loser now and will bbe when he retires the only thing the makes him so popular is that he was drafted in the second round. I f he was a 1st rounder he would be another Ben Gordon, Michael Redd, in other words just another name with a high scoring avg.

    @post35 u hit it right on the nose….
    loser always root for losers so these scrubs who were told they suck gonna love him …lmao

  • hoty

    1. Too young
    2. Hit the gamewinner to sink the Bulls to get into the 2nd round
    3. Gave up money to re-sign current team-mates/bring in role players
    4. Let Nick Young and Dom McGuire live in his house to keep them out of trouble
    5. That 06-07 season? That squad was first in the east before Arenas, Butler, and Jamison went down with injury. All missed significant time. The Wiz slide to .500

    Do they NEED Gil? I guess no one NEEDS anyone. Are they better with Gil? Probably

  • fiyaman

    that whole Nick Young/Dom McGuire thing is another example of Gil being a loser.. He is not even setting a good example for those 2.. the only thing I’ve ever seen about those 2 is them clownin around.. now I aint hating, have fun if u can but ur in da L now.. get ur game tight and try to better urself to better ur team. the Wiz have no future because those 2 dont take the L seriously b/c their leader doesnt take it serious.. when gil does down again( u know he will ) those 2 wont be ready to step in.. thats another reason y them keep losing to the Lebrons cause once they go to the bench its basically a wrap..

    it may be tooo early but i think Young and Mcguire will be losers and they can thank Gil for that.. JR Smith has his head str8er that those 2 clowns

  • fiq

    You can’t call him a loser because he hasn’t got a chip yet. He’s only 26 and has at least 4-5yrs before he can really be considered for this list. If Gil is a loser and has already made it to the second round of the playoffs with the WIZARDS of all teams what does that make Micheal Redd, Jermaine O’Neal, Baron Davis, & yes T-Mac?

    You just really can’t call a guy who leads a team to the 2nd round of the playoffs for the first time in 20 yrs a loser! Once again he lead the Wizards to the playoffs four yrs in a row! When was the last time the wizards/bullets have done that? There are so many guys you can put up here still not get to Gil for this list.

    Once again he to the Wizards to the playoffs! This francise was nothing for 25 years before came here. Put a fresh coat a paint on the call them the “wizards” and you guys seem to forget the Gil to the Bullets to the playoffs.

    Thats weak man

    fiq

  • Big V

    Ah man, I can see the hate from a mile away as this thing grows. By the way, the following quote made no sense to me:

    “despite high numbers in the steals department, Arenas clearly doesn’t lets his defense suffer in favor of being an offensive weapon. ”

    I think this should read “despite high numbers in the steals department, Arenas clearly doesn’t let his offense suffer in favor of being a defensive weapon.”

    ?????

  • fiyaman

    @fiq

    Arenas hasnt lead the Wizards to anything.. Yeah he was on team but he was/is/will never be the leader.. he will tell u that himself.. Jamison is the leader which goes back to my point.. He’s is the PG and is supposed to be the leader but is running away from it like a BIATCH… u know how many dudes in the league would love the chances to be the leader of their team and this dude is running from it.. give the $$ to Jamison and Butler and get roleplayer $$ like u should

    can u say LOSER

  • bigdoggchad

    I just read on truehoop that the NBA title is the hardest to win out of the major professional sports. So of course you are going to have a lot of guys that don’t win one or are called loser cause they don’t win a title. Look at the 90′s only four teams won a title(Pistons,Bulls,Rockets, and Spurs) same with the 80′s(LA,Bos,Det, and Phi). The 2000′s haven’t been much better with only 5 teams winning titles(Spurs,LA,DET,MIA, and BOS).

  • http://www.dimemag.com Austin Burton

    Did Arenas “let” Nick Young/Dominic McGuire live in his house, or did he sell them a house that he owned? I don’t think they were living with Gil and he was being the big brother or anything.

    The Wizards’ D is bad, and it starts at the top. Gil is the face of the franchise. Same with KG and Boston, Kobe and L.A., Melo in Denver, etc.

    I think it’s early to write Arenas off, but at the same time, does anyone here really see him getting to a conference finals or an NBA finals with the way he plays now? His team (with three great players) repeatedly loses to a team that only has one great player.

  • frankie

    First of all, I’m pretty sure that just not having won a championship yet doesn’t make you a loser. In that case, most of the guys in the league are losers. So Willis, GTFO.

    Bron and Willis, for the record, Dirk doesn’t fade. His numbers in the playoffs are better than they are in the playoffs. People always say that, just like they say Vince plays soft. Then people put numbers out that prove them wrong, and doubters just say, “uhhh, yea, but…I’m still right!” Pathetic.

  • Big V

    They have lost repeatedly to the Cavs, but you can’t really count this season (hurt Arenas), and the other year that Bron and Gil were trading 40 footers was some egregious BS that I thought screwed the Wiz out of the W. I don’t think Cleveland really has their number or anything. When their big 3 is healthy, they can bang with anyone in the East.

  • Sacto – J

    My 2 cents – While Blogger Zero has skills aplenty, he definitely deserves consideration on this list, for all the reasons listed in the article. How does a guy light up the scoreboard in one NCAA game, then practically get shut down the next? Especially a future elite player? I think he has plenty of time to get off this list, but somehow I don’t think it will be as a Wizard. And what’s he going to do when the W’s start declining, and no one wants to take on his hefty price tag to play for a winner? Skilled – fo sho. Winner – remains to be seen…..

  • Willis

    @ frankie

    your right. a lot of guys in the league are losers.

    Was KG a winner before he went to Boston?

    I’m just saying, your logic behind ‘they’ve been to the conference finals’ a bunch of times proves my point. They couldn’t get it done on the big stage. It was my criticism of Webb. Its my criticism of Dirk (the only stats that matter in this case is the W’s and the L’s.) Its my criticism of Jkidd. They didn’t do enough when they got there. The only guys that didn’t win championships that are winners are AI and Reggie Miller. These are the guys who would put their life out there every night and it was the rest of the team who wouldn’t do anything.

    Look at Paul Pierce. That sort of attitude is all anyone wants from these players. The ‘we are gonna win this game even if I have to score 40.’ Throw Nash into the pile of losers too.

  • frankie

    Willis, you’re not making any sense. If you’re talking about the W’s and the L’s, which is exactly what you said, then these guys are WINNERS. You have to win more games than you lose to get to the playoffs, Conference Finals, and the NBA Finals. Which AI, Malone, J Kidd, Dirk, and Nash (among others) have done repeatedly. If anyone knows of a site that could show lifetime winning percentages for players, that’d be great.

    Another metric we could use is how a player affects the team he’s traded to/signs with. As in, once a guy signs with a team, do they go from losers to winners? Do they go from winners to bigger winners? Steph leaves the Suns, Nash comes in, and they start winning a TON. Winning, as in the opposite of LOSING.

  • jid

    this list is gay

  • Bron42 had springs before slamball

    @frankie,
    did you really jsut say dirk doesnt fade in the playoffs? his stats might be ok in the playoffs but he FADES WHEN IT COUNTS…which is why the team HE is the star of choked to death against miami to the point where jerry stackhouse and jason terry had to take over AND he did it again against the warriors. If the mavs are down by 10 against a good team, dirk isn’t the guy who will suddenly just light them up and bring his team back most times. He has YET to prove he plays well under pressure. Hell i don’t think he even has one amazing playoff performance when it matters. Even vince has his epic historic show down with iverson that proved he was a superstar, what has dirk done?

  • frankie

    List of guys that are less of a winner than Dirk (as in, haven’t even been to the Finals to “fade”):
    Steph Marbury
    Jason Richardson
    Baron Davis
    Elton Brand
    Carmelo Anthony
    Ben Gordon
    Luol Deng
    Brandon Roy
    Gilbert Arenas
    Caron Butler
    Antawn Jamison
    Dwight Howard
    Andre Iguodala
    Chris Bosh
    Tracy McGrady
    Yao Ming

    The list goes on. Tons of star players have NEVER EVEN GOTTEN TO THE STAGE at which you claim Dirk has choked. This is kind of a weak argument anyway, considering, again, you need to have won A LOT to even get to that stage! You need to WIN to get there! I don’t care how “clutch” a guy is – if he doesn’t even make it to the Finals, he can’t win it! How can you consider someone a loser that hasn’t had a losing season since his rookie year?! Mind boggling…

  • Bron42 had springs before slamball

    its not really mind boggling, quit being a homer and look at the facts. as i said before DARKO has a ring, so just getting htere doesn’t mean you did it yourself. He is on a loaded team. Not to mention the majority of your guys named have been in the NBA for a shorter time than dirk..dwight howard? Brandon Roy? really? Ya, your not a dirk nut hugger lol. Dirk hasn’t been on bad teams that he had to carry himelf ala tmac, elton brand, chris bosh etc… so lets not make it like he dragged them to the finals and then just slowed down. Hes on teams with other allstars who pick up his slack but come the playoffs NOT EVEN JUST THE FINALS, hes doesn’t come up big. Dirk has never had one of those dig down deep moments and put my team on my back moments in the playoffs. Yes, he has gotten farther than tmac, but tmac is doing it with less AND has never been on the “better team expected to win”..Both times dirk has been on teh better team and both times when the pressure he was on. I really can’t believe you named like 6 guys with barely 4 years experience lol. I mean the mavs are just a better team so their expected to get farther, its not all dirk carryin bums the way tmac,dwight howard,bosh,brand,Melo etc..are. I can promise you Dwight howard will win a ring before dirk. And you don’t care about how clutch? um hello, if your STAR isn’t clutch, chances are your not gonna win.Which is why wade has a ring and Dirk was tasting his own tears the whole summer. Stars can’t win championships on their own, but they don’t crumble either and dirk has on both of his big spotlight moments.

  • frankie

    Ok, where to begin.

    First of all, I’m not a homer – I’m just pointing out the flaws in people’s arguments.

    Second of all, in the Finals, it’s generally acknowledged that the games were gift wrapped to Dwyane Wade – granted, it’s not the first time a shooting guard has gotten a lot of calls and won a series, but let’s not make it like those games were evenly called. In the 05-06 playoffs, Nowitzki (as per usual) raised his stats above his regular season numbers. Final point for THAT year is that Dwyane Wade had a good year before Shaq got there, but despite his Finals MVP and ‘chip, hasn’t done anything to prove himself a winner (not even get to a first round exit a la KG or T-Mac) before or since.

    Third of all, you make it like the Mavericks are some freakin all-stars, and the rest of the supporting squads are bums. But you’re wrong, as usual “lol”. Josh Howard is widely considered the Mavericks second best player, and yet the ONLY accolade he has EVER gotten as an NBA vet is an All-Star nod – in 2007. After the playoffs you’re questioning. Yea, Jason Terry is good, and was good in those playoffs. But that’s the “stacked” team your’e putting out there?! Ha. I bet you root for the Washington Generals, too. It’s laughable that you say that he’s on teams with other All-Stars. In about 10 years, Dirk has played with exactly three players that were All-Stars while he was there: Finley twice, Nash twice, and Howard once. Five other All star years combined, only one concurrently. Hardly a stacked team. That’s opposed to your “weaker team”, the Heat, which featured Dwyane Wade, Shaq, Gary Payton, and Alonzo Mourning, all of whom have more All-Star nods than THE REST OF THE MAVERICKS COMBINED have had, outside of Dirk. Sheez.

    It’s easy to understand how YOU couldn’t understand my point about the other players. Try to follow along. As many people have pointed out about the idea behind this column, there are bums that have won titles, and there are great players that never won. The idea is that there are certain types of players that will always win, and certain types of players that will always lose. MY POINT WAS, as I said a few times in my previous post, that, literally, you NEED TO WIN in order to get to the stage that Dirk has gotten to. You know that you need to WIN to get to the Finals, right? And to get to the Conference Finals? Even to get to the playoffs, in the Western Conference, you need to WIN a lot more than you lose. The other players I’ve listed are within 5 years of age of Gilbert, so even though I don’t expect them to have won anything significant, they’re in the topic because this is trying to identify players that WILL NEVER win anything, because that’s their type.

    Again, you point out that players play with bums. So T-Mac playing with Yao doesn’t count? Brand playing with Kaman and Cassell doesn’t count? Howard playing with Hedo and Shard doesn’t count? Melo playing with Iverson and Camby doesn’t count?

    These were just EXAMPLES. It’s ok if you read between the lines when people make points like that – be a big boy. I was just saying that in the end, they haven’t won as much as Dirk has. I’ll make the same argument for Nash, Kidd, AI, Malone, Barkley, etc. As much as it would make your argument easier, there’s no nut hugging going on here.

    Keep on lolling.

  • K Dizzle

    This loser list is gonna get messy. You got Vince, then you gotta have T-Mac…and Ray, P-Double and KG woulda been on this list if Atlanta had shocked the world.
    You got Gil, then you gotta have Caron and Jamison. This list needs to be more specific cuz if you ain’t played with Shaq, Timmy or was a Piston in the last 10 seasons, you could end up on this list.
    On the flipside: Are Antoine Walker or Darko Milicic not losers cuz they rode coat tails to a chip?
    Dime needs to tighten up the list of what a loser is. Arenas is a bad example with all the choices y’all got cuz he’s still on the fresh side of 30 and he hasn’t quit on his squad, hasn’t asked for a trade and hit big shots in the playoffs. If he’s a loser, then Joe Johnson, Pau Gasol, Tyson Chandler, JRich and Battier, Richard Jefferson, Zach Randolph, Dalembeast, Gerald Wallace…Matter fact everybody from the Draft class of 2001 except for Tony Parker and Mehmet Okur might be labelled a loser. Y’all gotta tighten this list

  • Bron42 had springs before slamball

    lol there ya go, your argument is alil better, still funny and laughable but funny.

    First off, yes, you are a homer

    second, dirk has gotten phantom calls too. The simple fact is wade made it his point to force the issue to get those calls. I mean hell, if dirk has just hit those shots, we wouldnt even be havin this conversation. And you still left out the warriors series. As for wade, he won when he came into the league, got a chip and a mvp. So you cant really say “oh outside of those he hasn’t won anything” considering hes been hurt, he did get knocked out in the first round the year before last.

    third, this argument alone proves your a homer. By stacked I meant well built. The spurs aren’t stacked if your goin by allstars either but as a overall unit thier better than most teams. And that being said dirk played with nash and josh who you said were both allstars and won what? so two other allstars and didn’t get it done? two allstars in their prime? You menton shaq,Gp, Zo? they were all past their primes when they played with the heat, not the same thing. Thats like if ewing came out of retirement right now and still countin him as allstar teammate. Terry has proved he can play and has experience, jerry stackhouse has experience, devan george has experience. So even comparing the NON-ALLSTARs on the team, to other supporting casts, the team still counts as stacked. Did i say the mavs had a alltime great team? no but they had vets who could still play and had experience. The head had GP who pretty much did nothing, walker who did nothing for the most part etc..Not to mention, 4 guys, 3 of the 4 past their prime still took apart the better overall team 4 games straight. Lets see a real superstar let that happen when he has 2 game sealing foulshots at the end.

    fourth,
    Keep up? try and make sense. Your menting guys like brandon roy in the same conversation as agent zero and dirk? hes been in the league what? 2 years? even if he is within 5 years of gil, no one would expect him to have won anything yet.So you can’t just say “oh hes the type to never win” since you don’t kno what him or the team will evolve into. And yes, you have to win to get to that point. Melo has made the playoffs almost every game of his career (more than lebron) and yet people say he is a loser. Point being, getting there is great but it doesnt matter if u don’t win. The mavs had the best record in the nba and choked it away in the first round. So great, he got his wins and then once again choked on the big stage. Tons of wins don’t matter if you never win the big one. Ask the patriots. No one wants to keep bein the brides maid. So ultimatly he still is a loser. Even more so since he isn’t single handedly carrying the mavs. If tmac has a bad game, its pretty much a given the rockets lose. Same with dwight howard. Same with chris bosh etc…There have been PLENTY of times dirk has sucked balls and jerry stackhouse comes in to drop 25, or terry goes for 30 or howard has 25+.

    And yes, tmac playing with yao would count as bums. Yao is hurt alot, and like dirk, is known for giving you good numbers but never when they need it. Yao, just like dirk, isn’t the guy your going to with the game on the line. besides yao was out 75% of the season and tmac still made the playoffs and made it a series. The mavs on the other hand got rapped by a inexperience team with only one star. And even if yao was like hakeem the dream and just scored bucket after bucket to bring his team back, the rest of the team is STILL bums. Is jason terry better than bobby jackson or skip? Is stackhouse at least even to battier? You mention brand like kaman is a stud or cassel is young and those 2 alone make the team good? Again you mention dwight, when A)he makes the playoffs, b) hes young as shit c) this is his first year with rashard and hedo has only been good the last 2 years d)yes, outside of those guys, who on the team does anything? nelson? bum. battie? bum. Foyle? bum. Dooling? Mo evans? JJ? Arroyo? should i keep going? is anyone here a big piece to the puzzle? so ya they have teams full of bums. Melo and iverson and camby? k great, what about bench depth? ever heard of that? what about skilled role players? they don’t count? thats the big difference your ignoring. Unless your jordan, a superstar surrounded by barely servicable guys isn’t going to win much as opposed to superstars with legit guys put around them, ala dirk, duncan, and now kg. The teams your comparing them to are good teams, their not really contenders. The mavs were supposed to be contenders but dirk falls apart (and seriously, everyone from steven A smith, to ernie johnson have said it so dont sound so surprised) that he is mentally weak. Same with nash/amare. Its great that they makes the playoffs exciting every year but if they fizzle out ALL THE TIME their still losers based on dimes standards. So ask the suns what great regular seasons amount to and crappy playoffs account to..jack shit. dirk could avearge 60 wins a season and if he gets beat by lesser teams in the playoffs, which is where supstars are supposed to take over..well how much of a superstar is he. Guys like iverson and tmac take over games when their down, even if their team still loses. Usually when the mavs start losing dirk is completely thrown off his game.

    Keep postin funny arguments and i’ll be happy to lol all day. I mean i understand your a dirk nut hugger, and all of us here are ok with that. but at least make your arguments alil better than comparing guys in the league for about 9 years to guys in the league 2 years and going “oh well he has won more games than this guy”

  • frankie

    You don’t even know where I’m from, so how can you say that I’m a homer? As I said, I would go to bat for a few different players from all over the League/world, so I don’t see where you’re coming from with that.

    Wade has made the most of his ability, and always goes balls out. No disrespect to him. My point is that his team was not “the weak team”, and were it not for those weak calls, he wouldn’t have won the championship. When they were in those Finals, Dirk was the only All-Star on the team, as a sub. Meanwhile, Shaq and D Wade started the game. Furthermore, Shaq AND D Wade made All-NBA teams that year (first and second teams respectively). The only player from the Mavs? Dirk. Dirk has NOT had great teams like you make them out to be, any way you slice it. I take back what I said before – Dirk has NEVER played with two All-Stars.

    So you’re saying that everyone that has never won a championship is a loser? So Ewing, Malone, Barkley, and other members of the NBA’s 50 greatest players of all time are losers? Hm. Curious. The loser list is going to get REALLY long if we let Bron have his way. Next up? The Patriots, apparently.

    Please check the scoring averages for the Mavericks you’ve listed. I think all of your nut hugging jokes must be getting to your head, because the number of times you’re suggesting they score 25+, their scoring averages would probably be…well, over the 19.9 Howard scored this past season (12.6 in the playoffs), the 10.7 Stackhouse scored (6.2 in the playoffs), or the 15.9 JET scored (15.8 in the playoffs). BTW, despite your claims of not showing up in the big time and of not carrying a scoring load, Dirk scored a team high 23.6 during the season, then raised that average to 26.8 in the playoffs. It’s not his fault that it’s becoming more and more of a small man’s league. Run at the basket, jump, and hope to get the call.

    Ok, I’ll drop Roy from that list of players. From there, I still have a dozen players AND COUNTING, btw, that have been in the league for a little while now, and with the same quality of supporting cast (read the paragraph where I told you AGAIN that Dirk hasn’t had the greatest supporting cast) have done much, much less. In other words, put Dirk in the toughest division in the toughest conference with a decent team, and all he does is win.

    You call ME a homer, but all I’ve done is shown again and again with facts that Dirk is a winner. Sounds like someone else has a bias for some reason.

  • Truth is told

    Gil is damn funny, definitely a fan favorite, but he’s clearly not a winner. He relies to much on talent and self-confidence, even if his shots don’t fall. Doesn’t share the ball enough, and then, he turns it over waaaay too much. He reminds me of Stevie Francis back when he was still Da Man with the Rockets. A flashy player loved around the league, but not a player a GM can build around.
    He tries hard, that’s obvious, but he does not need to bend it like John Mc Clane.
    The Wizards are clearly the opposite of the Spurs: no discipline, no real leadership (and I ain’t talking about an Arenas-type of leadership, he has clearly charisma, but he doesn’t inspire respect like Duncan)
    While Duncan is a proven winner who can keep TP & Ginobili in line, Arenas keeps playing out of his mind and getting his numbers. But then, he doesn’t make his teammates better. (cough…kobe…cough)
    With Stevenson and Nick Young on board, this team is going nowhere as a NBA professionnal team.

  • Big Shot Rob

    The whole Sacramento Queens starting five (’02 playoffs) should be on that loser list.

    Divac, C.Webb, Peja, D. Christie & M. Bibby

    Sounds now like a huge team of bums, right ?

  • larry brown

    gill where is nick young going to live since you sold the from under him nick young is homeless in dc help nick young to fine a place to live