If you were running an NBA team: Talent over character?
Stephon Marbury, Dime #38After he’d watched a mini-marathon of ESPN’s AND 1 “Streetball” show, my Dad asked me the other day why obviously talented players like Kenny “The Bad One” Brunner and Aaron “AO” Owens can’t even get an NBA tryout, while longtime benchwarmers like Dan Dickau and Kevin Ollie keep getting work.
On top of things like the negative streetball stigma and the glaring holes that some playground stars have in their games, one thing I told my Dad was that NBA teams — when it comes to end-of-the-bench types and/or players who are about equal in terms of talent — will almost always go with a guy who they know won’t give them any headaches over a guy who might have headcase tendencies.
In today’s Smack there’s a debate going on about whether the Cavs should pursue Ben Gordon or J.R. Smith, with one factor being that J.R. — while certainly talented and definitely cheaper than BG — may be a bigger risk due to some character questions. And this summer we’ve seen how proven vets like Stephon Marbury and Ricky Davis are often treated like toxic waste on the open market despite their ability on the court.
NBA personnel decision-makers face these dilemmas all the time: Should they risk it with a guy who might be a locker-room cancer but can drop 15-20 points a night? Will they sign a guy with a sketchy off-the-court rap sheet if he can be a lock-down defender? Do the positives of a quality big man outweigh the negatives if said big man has a track record of beefing with his coaches? Is it worth it to invest in a young ballplayer with a questionable work ethic if he’s also got undeniably phenomenal athletic ability?
If you were running an NBA team, would you value talent over character? Would you take a risk on a talented player with baggage over a lesser talent who’s guaranteed not to rock the boat?
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August 5th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
weezy f says:
if the player had potential to vhange his attitude around id give him a shot and if it didnt work out then i would go for a trade but if hes a lost cause like ricky davis and stephon marbury then no
August 5th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
BxBaller says:
Talent over character, easy.
August 5th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
doc says:
U take both into consideration.Im not taking no bum just because he a boy scout.And Im not paying somebody thats gonna get in trouble.I’ll give you a chance if they saying you got issues but you didnt do nothing but beef with a coach all day.Coaches and players are people and all dont get along.A lot of hall of fame players got coaches fired in they day.Magic Johnson after he won his first chip.But you gotta have a good mixture.Marbury is crazy so thats different.Ricky care about his stats and be on loser teams but I give him a shot because he never got in trouble.Give me a player who competes and is talented and might boil over at a coach once or twice (JR) over a player who wont say shit to the coach but go to the papers and complain about they spot when they not the shit like that to begin with.(Gordon)
August 5th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
doc says:
Kobe Bryant coach Phil Jack and he give his coach way more problems than JR and caught a scrape case but nobody here would not sign Kobe.So it also depends on what kind of talent you talking about.
August 5th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Celts Fan says:
It all depends how talented and how big the headaches could be, but as a rule, I don’t think you should automatically rule out potential headaches until you’ve at least done your homework.
August 5th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
your favorite writers favorite writer says:
only guy who can coach and understand the misfits was John Lucas…
August 5th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
doc says:
But believe it or not.Kevin Ollie bum ass is better than all them And 1 dudes.Point guards like him and Dickau specialty is bringin the ball up against pressure like its not there and getting that offense started in good time so you can get a nice possession in 24 seconds.That shit aint as easy as it sounds.Good character helps though.
August 5th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
rob stewart says:
The less talented character guy can oftentimes be of great benefit. He is dependable and reliable and always gives his best effort. It also depends on what other guys are on the team. If your team already has Chris Paul and Jannero Pargo then it makes sense to get a character guy guard. But if all you have is Chris Duhon at the point then you might want to gamble on a guy like Tinsley or Marbury. Sense a benchwarmer hardly ever plays a large amount of significant minutes I would choose the character guy that gives his all.
August 5th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Luigi says:
i believe Potential is a big factor if teams sign players. liek the Wizards signed Dee Brown..hes like what 24? n the wiz believe he can contribute
NBA teams will believe the potential n know about the questionable attitude
other than that
NBA Teams will go for character. look at the spurs. look at LeBron. bkuz if u go for talent instead of character…well hear are examples
Buckets in MIA.
Steph in every team he’s been with.
JR with Den this yr.
Kobe in the offseason las yr.
Shaq at the end of his MIA tenture.
Pierce a few yrs back.
KG at the end of his Minny career
Gerald Green
Vince Carter at the end of his TOR career
so basically if ur a nutcase and have a bad attitude and bad work ethic. ur either wanted but not loved or traded straight up right away
look. bad character causes problems with team chemistry and when the superstars dont wanna be there anymore..itl make for some bogus trades even IF the player is a world class athlete
so i think Character over talent. look at the Spurs. and if the wiz didnt show arrognace ESPECIALLY DESHAWN! x(….maybe LBJ wuda been more leaneant on us. but i doubt it
Character over talent anyday…except 4 video games
August 5th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
doc says:
Robert Horry beef with coaches as much as the next man.People just think the Spurs goody 2 shoes.Remember he threw the towel in Danny Ainge face.Shit happens.Like they good examples Luigi because everybody write they got bad character but what Ricky do in MIA,JR in Denver,KG in Minny,Gerald Green.What did they do?Where did the character come in.That shit come from people talking like Gerald Green got talent I know he must’ve did this and that.How about Houston just aint want him and cut his ass.
August 5th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
MoxWestCoastRep says:
Look @ manny Ramirez. If you have super star talent its easier to put up w your shit.
If you’re Chris Andersen, you’re on a much shorter leash
August 5th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
GEE...Low down dirty even says:
It’s all time, chance and the situation. A lot of boy scouts will act up when they on a losing squad, ain’t gettin that tic they think they deserve or if they got the wrong people trying to blow them up in their ear.
On the other side of the coin as I said on another page, a lot of thugs if you will, get that act-right in them when they on a winning team, got a coach they like, or of they playing with a buddy of theirs or if they getting sufficient tick.
So it’s all a gamble. Granted you still go off percentages and what you mostly see, but we all pretty much in states of we don’t know who could do what when.
That said, I would always go with talent and pray hard lol. Mind you now this talent got to be way above and beyond that of the dude with good character cause if you talkin only a 3 to 4 point difference in scoring then I am most def. taking character.
If you talking a …I’d say 7 to 10 point diff. then yea I am rolling with talent. You just have to really hope the whole environment will mesh well together.
Also I don’t know if you can say look at the Spurs because it ain’t like them dudes ain’t talented. I think that is a situation where you just got the best of both worlds in character and talent.
Of course we don’t know how some of them cats would possibly act in a horrid situation. Like playing for the Bucks according to Gil. LOL.
I think it just boils down to what you need and how much of what you need the player can give you and a lot of prayer lol
August 5th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
doc says:
Exactly Gee.If Stephen Jackson still played for the Spurs they would be saying hes a character guy.For everybody else hes crazy.But look at 1 Spurs game when he was there he did the same exact shit on the court.
August 5th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Joe says:
As a Blazer fan I think I am more versed in this discussion than most. It is absolutely imperative to get high character guys. I have been through the “jail blazers” era, and it was awful. It doesn’t just affect the team, it reflects poorly on the entire city.
And by the way, with KP at the helm, blazer fans have now realized it doesn’t have to be one or the other. It is possible to find and bring in a team full of very talented players that are also high character guys.
August 5th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
aj says:
Talent over character if they’re a top 3 starter on a team.
Character over talent if they’re a role player.
Basketball is character revealing so headcases and me-first players can really kill a team. Ya don’t need no nut on the bench causing havoc.
The Knicks have as much talent as most teams in the L. Look at the Spurs and Celts though, talent at the top few positions and character role players get the to the W’s (it also helps that their top players have character too).
August 5th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
hahns says:
if i had to choose, the optimist in me says talent. i try to see the best in ppl haha
August 5th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
doc says:
@joe-I feel what you saying but, what if I told you B-Roy was at a club in Vegas with 10 strippers around him throwing money around.Is he still a good character.He is to me but people bash others for the same thing.It depends on what you think is bad character first before you judge people on it.To me it look like the Blazers pick the best talent more than character in all these drafts but I guess you can spin it anyway you want to.When did yall let a more talented player fall because of his character.Like yall Jailblazers team,they pretty much all smoked weed but got locked up for it,so they were unresponsible.Your whole team might do it now but they on point.Smarter yes,more character no.Sheed Wallace got more character than a lot of dudes in the L.I work at the man youth center he got built for the kids to stay out of trouble in my hood.Ball courts 2 full courts mind you,computer room with top of the line shit,summer camps and classes,karate class,all out his pocket.Whoever doing the best when they graduate every year get a full ride to the college of they choice.But if you try to ask him about it he’ll tell you it aint about shit dont talk about it.The media portray people to have bad character that dont sometimes and will hold the shadiest people up on a pedastool like they shit dont stink.
August 5th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
bobby stew says:
Luigi is 100% right. Character over talent except on video games LOL.
August 5th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
the_baconator says:
correction dime: toxic waste is better than steph or ricky buckets
i think part of the problem with the l today is coaches are afraid to yell at their players. granted, i understand it’s a business, but just like in any other business, if an employee (player) isn’t performing how he should be he needs to be spoken to. stephon marbury is plenty talented, but he obviously doesn’t give a damn about the game. isiah should’ve cursed him out for skipping games to “grieve.” any player can develop character, it just takes a firm coaching hand to force them to develop it
August 5th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Joe says:
@doc – there is a reason they were called the jailblazers, it wasn’t because they liked going out to clubs or strip joints, it was because they kept getting in trouble with the cops. Sneaking weed onto planes in tin foil, carrying guns on the team plane, fighting, etc… As long as you obey the law, what you do in your free time is your own business, when the cops arrest you it’s no longer your personal life….instead it’s public life
August 5th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
paningit says:
character by far. talent is very important. but like other things, basketball skills can be acquired and honed given that your players have the character to work on their game and stick with the game plan.
August 5th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Meica says:
I don’t understand why GMs (John Paxon & Isiah Thomas for opposite reasons) can’t figure out how this all works:
You make sure you get guys with character because of the troublemakers.
Take the Badboy himself Mr. Dennis Rodman. Throughout his storid career he’s headbutted a ref, punched a cameraman, kicked a cameraman, etc. etc. yes when he’s put around character guys: Jordan, Pippen they not only keep him in check, but hopefully gets him to buy into the gameplan, the system, the team.
Obviously, someone will point out that the Bulls did a lot of winning and that also would have played a part in keeping Rodman behaved, and rightly so because that’s where the talent comes in!
Character + Talent (sometimes regardless of character) = Winning.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
the mamba says:
It’s not about character, its all about chemistry. These guys made good points. A lot of previously so_called “bad charcter guys” have ended up in the right situation at the right time and then ended up with chips. Rodman, stephen jackson, rasheed wallace. Hell, even antoine walker won a championship as a starter. How many other teams would have wanted him as a starter that year or now even? Point is, its a team game. If the celts would have had jr smith instead of tony allen, u think they would’ve gone fishing early? Hell no
August 6th, 2008 at 2:03 am
Promoman says:
You have to look at both. You can be talented but be useless to a team. You find guys like that everywhere from the NBA to the Y. Guys like Steph, Ricky, etc. say what you want to hear but doing what they want to do. The minute their egos are threatened or when the spotlight isn’t theirs, they sabotage teams. You’re better off with a roster full average players than a couple of stars who do everything to keep themselves ahead at the expense of everybody else.
August 6th, 2008 at 2:14 am
Promoman says:
Kenny Brunner basically sabotaged himself. He may be a NBA caliber player, but after that Samurai Showdown stunt @ Fresno State and all the crime he got into, he’ll likely never get a NBA look. He used to be the Isiah Rider of the NCAA. He had a ticket but he screwed that up. He had more chances than anybody in AND 1 history, Rafer Alston included. He had offers from Georgetown, UCLA, etc., but he pissed all those away.
August 6th, 2008 at 4:25 am
karan says:
its about the team as a whole having a character, so even if a bad character player does come in, his unpredictable nature could actually be used for some good
August 6th, 2008 at 8:51 am
gee the steph fan says:
Marbury puts numbers up on all the teams that gave him the ball. The Knicks took the ball out of his hands the last three years. Curry and Crawford? The bulls got better without them. Q? The Suns got better without him. How come I only hear about what Marbury’s team did without him? I’ll take 19 and 8 anyday over some media ‘good’ guy. None of these guys are ‘good’ or ‘bad’ guys. You ‘fans’ give these guys these reps and it just follows them. Ricky Davis is still exactly what the Cavs need but they felt he would stop Lebron’s growth, thats stupid, The Cavs have no heart besides Lebron, Buckets is exactly the kind of ‘character’ they needed.
August 6th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
DTUCK says:
Why isn’t Baby Shaq in the league? I think dude would do work in the league, and would take him on the Lakers anytime. I know others may not agree, but I like his game.
August 6th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Big Dutch from Chi says:
Rose over Beasley. That gives you your answer!
We’re gonna regret that for the next 10 years.
August 6th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
it aint easy being green says:
all of these are good points and i dont wanna beat a dead horse so i wont. but ricky “buckets” davis is a D-BAG!!!