Who are the greatest small forwards of all-time?
LeBron James, Dime #31Remember a few months ago when people were saying that a Boston Celtics championship would give Kevin Garnett a better argument against — if not put him ahead of — Tim Duncan in the hierarchy of the game’s all-time great power forwards?
While unspectacular performances in about 24 of Boston’s 26 playoff games put that to bed for now (check back in 10 months if KG has a second ‘chip), ranking the NBA’s best PF’s in history is still relatively easy. Duncan holds the top spot, with the top five being rounded out by whatever order of Karl Malone, Kevin McHale, Charles Barkley and KG meets your preference.
A tougher position to rank is that of small forward. Because threes come in so many different sizes and speeds and styles, and because the position lends itself to such versatility, it’s harder to compare players when they’re so different. For example, look at today’s crop of SF’s and you’ve seel guys who are all over the map — from Carmelo Anthony to Bruce Bowen to Josh Howard – who are elite performers in their own way, yet don’t mirror each other at all.
Most anyone you’d ask would put Larry Bird on top of the list of SF’s, but I know some people who put a high premium on defense and would give the nod to Scottie Pippen. But then if you want your three to be a ruthless scorer as well as a superior athlete, maybe you’d prefer Julius Erving.
While I’d put Bird at #1, after that it’s tough. You’ve got Pippen, Dr. J, Dominique Wilkins, Rick Barry, James Worthy, Shawn Marion, John Havlicek, Bernard King, Alex English, Chris Mullin, Elgin Baylor …
And then there’s LeBron. Obviously he has the tools to supplant Bird and everyone else listed above as the best ever at the position, but what will it take to get him there? Does ‘Bron have to win multiple championships? Can he continue putting up 28-7-7 numbers for a decade and claim the throne even if he never wins a ring? Is the 23-year-old, fifth-year pro already in the top five all-time? Is he already #2 behind Bird?
How would you rank the small forwards?
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August 13th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
F.L.A.S.H. says:
larry bird….the list can end there
August 13th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Scott L. says:
Depends on if you’re basing it off of pure talent or how much they’ve won.
Bird, Pippen, LeBron, Dr. J, Dominique would probably be my top 5.
Bird and Pippen just won so much that they deserve to be top until Lebron starts winning MULTIPLE chips. Lebron is a physical beast but he hasn’t produced the ultimate result yet.
Same goes for KG. He’ll never get ahead of TD until he wins at least as many chips as TD. TD is simply quiet and nasty.
August 13th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Michorizo says:
I would say Charles Barkley if I had the jersey that dime promised me when I won the summer giveaway contest…but I have heard nothing from dime regarding this. Austin, how do I get my jersey? I haven’t got an email.
August 13th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
George W Kush Sr says:
Obviously, Bird has to be there.
But was Bird better than what Lebron will be? Hell no.
As of right now, i’d say that Lebron is in the top 5 no doubt, and is destined to be the best ever SF, but he aint there yet.
I say, in no particular order until Lebron reaches his Prime, its Bird, ‘Nique, King, Marion and Lebron.
August 13th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
George W Kush Sr says:
Obviously, Bird has to be there.
But was Bird better than what Lebron will be? Hell no.
As of right now, i’d say that Lebron is in the top 5 no doubt, and is destined to be the best ever SF, but he aint there yet.
I say, in no particular order until Lebron reaches his Prime, its Bird, ‘Nique, King, Pippen and Lebron.
August 13th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
George W Kush Sr says:
Obviously, Bird has to be there.
But was Bird better than what Lebron will be? Hell no.
As of right now, i’d say that Lebron is in the top 5 no doubt, and is destined to be the best ever SF, but he aint there yet.
I say, in no particular order until Lebron reaches his Prime, its Bird, ‘Nique, Dr J, Pippen and Lebron.
August 13th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
Jack says:
Crazy how many of these comparison ‘filler articles’ Dime posts on a daily basis. Give it a rest and report real news like the fact Lebron has a new sidekick, Mo Williams. $lam!
August 13th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Daily boy says:
When it’s all said and done I think Lebron will be at the top, but if I had to make my list today.
1.Bird
2.Pippen
3.Lebron
4.Dr.J
5.Nique
August 13th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
fiyaman says:
Lebron has only been in the league 5 yrs.. I cant put him on the Greatest list..
August 13th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
doc says:
On the real Im taking Bron over everybody but since he aint even halfway finished I would feel bad saying he better then Larry Bird or Scottie Pippen even if I think he is.So with that said,Im going with 1.Bird-He still holding it down on the strength he was the top dog on 3 chip teams,not to mention all those MVPs finals and reg season.So I gotta rock with him in his prime.2.Scottie-He up there where I might pick him over Bird depending on who else I got.In his peime he was the Doberman locking dudes down.He would’ve gave Bird problems if they was in their prime together.3.Doc-He the shit.4.Dominique-He the shit also.5.Big Game James-He was smooth as they come.Lebron in my opinion is better than all these dudes so if we judging on potential he the 1rst pick everybody else taking a step back.
August 13th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Logan Light says:
@Michorizo
Be easy fam – I won the limited edition Melo M4′s from DIME and it took a steady 2 months before I got em… but I DID get them.
Hold tight.
August 13th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Reed Ewing Frazier says:
Damn can’t argue with none of the list so far as much as I hate to say it because I hate this dead beat dad but Bird is number one hands down all the rest can come in any order.
KNICKS UP!! all the rest down!!
August 13th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Jim says:
I cannot believe how white my list is, certainly the shock of my day. I think Barry and Havlicek have to be in your top-5 over Pippen and Nique. I’m not old enough to remember any of these guys before Dominque and a little Dr. J, but I don’t think you can bounce Havlicek (who was all-time all-NBA top 15 team in the 70s) and Barry (biggest A-Hole ever? How are his kids seemingly cool? “I’m better at everything than everyone else.”)
1. Bird, 2. Dr. J, 3. Havlicek, 4. Barry, with 5 reserved for Mr. James…though I think you can go ahead and at least reserve #2.
I think plenty of people would argue for Havlicek to go up to #2. I’ll leave that to Celts…
Before you bounce on me, look up and see people putting Marion, etc. in the top-5.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
AY says:
scottie pippen? are you kidding me? I watched his entire career; he was good, but not top5, at any moment.
1. Bird
2. Dr. J
3. Elgin Baylor
4. Hondo
5. Rick Barry
6. Lebron
7. Dominique
8. Pistol Pete
9. Pippen
August 13th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Plainview says:
LeBron will assuredly win titles unless he suffers a catastrophic injury, and will go down as the best SF ahead of Bird. It’ll go LeBron, Bird, and whoever else cause it doesn’t matter after that.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
CP3MVP says:
Aint nobody mentioned Elgin Baylor til AY right here. That dude definently deserves top 5…
August 13th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Yoooo says:
Anyone with Pip not in their top 3 is on dope. I wish he was around to give Lebron fits. Hed wear Bron ass out
August 13th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
CP3MVP says:
And also, I dont know why we are even mentioning shawn marion. I love the Matrix and all, but he really isnt even in the discussion for all time great small forwards
August 13th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Joe says:
@AY – have you been drinking heavily today? Pistol Pete was a PG
August 13th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Matt says:
How does Marion make the list? I know he’s real good but I don’t put him in the top 2 playing right now.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Matt says:
How does Marion make the list? I know he’s real good but I don’t even put him in the top 2 playing right now.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
doc says:
Yeah Marion dont belong.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
justice says:
@ #17 yoooo
pip was my man and he was nice he should be right up there with bird, dr j and nique…but let’s not get ahead of ourselves pip used to struggle against physical players, lebron is way too athletic and way too strong for him, it would be like what he does to tyshuan prince..i mean pip is better than prince of course but lebron would but his ass similiar..
but the problem is lebron wouldn’t be able to guard pip either..lebron would kill anyone on the list but they would kill him too..lol
August 13th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Rev. Paul Revere says:
1a-Dr. J
1b-Larry Bird
3-Lebron soon enough
4-Pippen
5-George Gervin? Does he count as a small forward?
Also, I understand Bird is No. 1 on most boards, but there’s no way anyone but Dr. J could be No. 2. Lebron needs to win a championship or two first, but he could get there.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
justice says:
marion f outta here if he’s in then, where the f is grant hill..
if marion is in then odom and ak47 have a case,so does cliff robinson when he played with portland,deflef schremp lol,dale ellis,glen rice,glenn robinson etc…
August 13th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
rob stewart says:
Pippen is #1. He could hamndle the ball better than any other sf and he could guard positions 1-4. He is the best combination of offense, defense, athletic ability, court smarts, and versatility. Just make sure you put him with Mike.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
bill says:
One thing to take into account.. while you all put Pip and Bird up there cos of their multiple championships – look at the talent Bird had on his team (he wasnt finals mvp in his first championship). Bird played with multiple HOFers.
Pip won 6 chips but we all know the main reason he did that.
Just think about it.. Lebron will be expected to win a few rings in his time, and he will be expected to do it without two other superstars sharing the frontcourt with him. And he definitely won’t be the second option during his championship runs (pippen).
If you want to compare lebron to pippen, and say he’s not a winner, then picture lebron playing with Kobe for a decade and see if you think those two could manage 6 rings.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
that's whats up says:
all time g.o.a.t.s
1. magic
2. jordan
3. bird
4. duncan
5. shaq
no other squad can touch that
August 13th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
that's whats up says:
…and the numbers represent position, not rank
August 13th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
doc says:
@Bill-If Lebron and Kobe play on the same NBA team everybody else gonna quit.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Jim says:
Off-topic, but the NBA was not invented in 1980.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Jim says:
doc has a good point…Pippen could have been putting up numbers on a worse team but instead became a nightmare defender…Kobe has shown he can’t do that. He has to be the man. That’s a reason to give props to Pippen, though I don’t think he’s top-3.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
doc says:
@Jim we know it wasnt invented in the 80′s.You see we got Dr. J on there.We just believe that Scottie and Nique will do serious damage to Hondo and them cats.Not disrespecting just saying.That all time 15 dont mean shit really.Thats about publicity.Nique wasnt on the top 50.But like the whole damn Celtic dynasty was from Bill era.You telling me Nique wouldnt bust the 8th man ass from that team.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
doc says:
You could put Barry over Big Game but in reality Bron is pushing that last spot out anyway and I also think Big Game would be to much for Rick to keep up with.Rick would score though.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
AB_40 says:
1a Bird
1b Erving
2 Baylor
3 King
4 Pippen
5 Nique
Untill leBron has 10 years of expierience what does he do on an all time list. After 5 years in the league shawn kemp was supposed to become one of the best PF’s ever we all know how that turned out.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
d_poz_it says:
Chris Mullin has got to get a little more love. He was a scoring machine and an original Dream Team member.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
doc says:
Chris was a 3 dog.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
doc says:
Chris was a 3 point specailist dog,but he had a handle to.He should def be up there on the to choose from list.But he aint making this cut.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Celts Fan says:
@That’s what’s up, you were doing so well til you got to the 5. Shaq?!? I’d put him behind Wilt and Russell for sure and probably Kareem too, with Dream being very close behind him.
also, LeBron will probably end up taking best 3 ever, but he’s gotta win at least 2 chips and keep filling up the stat sheet. My guess is his final numbers rival KG’s (top 40 or so in 4 or 5 categories,) he comes close to averaging a triple double at some point, and gets 3 rings.
Right now, I’d go:
1. Larry Legend
2. the good Dr. (Hondo accomplished more, but Dr. J gets it for his accomplishments in revolutionizing the game. Hondo got some rings and is the all time leading scorer for the Celtics which most people don’t know, but Dr. J changed how the game was played.)
3. Hondo
4. Pippen
5. Rick Barry
6. Elgin
7. LeBron (I just can’t put a guy about to start only his 6th year above the legends we have over him right now. They’re keeping a seat warm for him, but right now, it’s too early IMO.)
August 13th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
bill says:
@doc
yeah. but what im trying to say is Lebron and Kobe is like 2k version of MJ and Pip.
Or imagine Lebron teamed with talent comparable to Birds teammates. Say Garnett (McHale) at the 4 – both regarded top 5 PFs and say a Mutumbo/Zo at the 5 (Comparable to Chiefs standing amongst other C’s in his prime).
Those two scenarios have Lebron wreakin havoc on the league. Fact is Lebron is that good we expect him to do it all on his own one day, and he probably will. And if he does, Bird and Pip have to take a back seat to him.
Lebron took the crappest team ever to the finals at such a young age. I think if Lebron teamed up with any other top 15 talent in the league then Cavs would be instant favourites.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Jim says:
doc-my 1980 comment was my quick reaction to someone saying Shaq was best center ever, but I guess it goes along with my picks too. If Barry and Dominique played I hope Nique would wear him out, I can’t stand him.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
doc says:
Yeah Jim I dont think Shaq the best center ever.He was the huskiest.I like Kareem at least.I aint see Wilt and them but from what I heard they was the shit.Bill too.But like Austin say theyplayed in a different era because that shit Bill be doing on NBA TV in them classic games wouldnt fly today.Bron would be gulfing that shit from the 3 spot.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Jim says:
Alright, Doc has laid it out there: all time huskiest starting 5?
August 13th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
jeremy says:
WTF why did he try and sneak marion in there
August 13th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
david j(ay) says:
fellas, some love for grant hill??
August 13th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Jason says:
Grant Hill should def be in this discussion. Injuries or not!
August 13th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
Michael says:
Bob F**king Pettit won two MVPs a championship 4 allstar MVps and yet somehow he is always forgotten when it comes to the best Power Fowards of all time list. He shoud be no lower than second.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Luigi says:
Bird
Doctor
Pistol
Nique
Pippen
Baylor
Hondo
LBJ
Rick Barry
Elvin Hayes
thats my list..ppl can add or change it if u guys want. its just an opinion..but some can argue that Hill shud be on this list if not for the injuries.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Michael says:
1.Larry Bird
2.Elgin Baylor
3.Dr. J
4.Rick BArry
5.John Havlechik
August 13th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
D.H. says:
Lebron could turn into Nolan Ryan; arguably one of if not the best pitchers of all time and he never one a ‘chip.
Lebron has the skills to put up insane stats:
40,000 + points
10,000 + assists
10,000 + rebounds
Those figures would surely give him the top spot. Add a couple of ‘chips and he’s flirting with GOAT.
August 13th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
GarethChantler says:
you should fired for just writing Shawn Marion
August 13th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Reed Ewing Frazier says:
@jim why all the hate for Rick Barry?
@jim and doc all time huskiest starting 5:
1. Shaq
2. Oliver Miller
3. Shawn Kemp (Orlando Magic season)
4. Tractor Traylor
5. Khalid El-Amin
Back ups:
Charles Barkley (Houston Rockets seasons)
Stanley Roberts
KNICKS UP!! all the rest down!!
August 13th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
Austin Burton says:
Marion’s numbers keep him in the discussion. I don’t feel like looking it up again, but he averages more rebounds than a lot of players on this list, more blocks/steals than a lot of players on here, more points than some of them, and has been a great on-ball defender. He’s always been underrated. Would I take Marion over Dr. J or LeBron? No, but I will include him in a Top-10 discussion.
August 13th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
knoc says:
im sure pistol was a pg
August 13th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
F.L.A.S.H. says:
@ the teammates arguement, McHale and Chief were slightly overrated because of the Bird effect making them score with less attention of defenses, or Bird getting them great looks (check the overvalue of Todd McCulloch, Kerry Kittles, Kenyon Martin, Keith Van Horn etc after playing with Jason Kidd)
He also had about 50 triple doubles in his career, rebounds 10x better than any other small forward not named marion, a genius playing the passing lanes, and aside from MJ, is probably the most clutch player of all time (LeBronze has a long way to go in that department).
Bird also won THREE STRAIGHT MVP’s
Now that aside, LeBron will shatter almost every record in the books, win multiple MVP’s and championships, and EVENTUALLY supplant bird, but as you see in his lack of popularity with fans compared to Kobe, I think it would be more fair to say that lebron is the second coming of magic to Kobe’s MJ.
August 13th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
schoops says:
@ plainview… bron is definately going to win multiple rings? have you checked their front office lately… larry hughes and damon jones were HUGE signing for them….
@that’s what’s up… Shaq is definately behind Russell. I’ll take a man with more rings than fingers any day. Not a dude who’s a beast but trashes every team he “loves” once he leaves and coasts his fat ass through most regular seasons (thank god Kobe and Wade carried the team through the season).
@lots of people… Bron has been in the league 5 years and been to one championship that was basically a walk through practice for the opposition. Does he have all the tools to be one of the best? Of course… but he’s not there yet. It’s ridiculous to put him in the top 3-5 all time when he’s a third of the way through his career…
And as for Marion.. if we’re talking one of the best Sfs of the new millenium then he’s right up there. If we’re talking all time then Marion is either the water boy or ball boy for the SF team. He has the numbers(before and during nash), but didn’t go anywhere in the playoffs until steve nash arrived….
August 13th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
yoda says:
what puts bird on top of this list (same as mj on top of sg list) is not only chips, but above all heart of the champion . when bron have skill set to be far away best sf, but if he doesn’t shows up that he will do everything it needs to be done, he won’t be top dog on this list.
August 13th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
Caf says:
how the hell did marion get on this list?!?
August 13th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Dagomar says:
Thing is, there’s a difference between how good a player is and how great they are. Greatness comes through championships and playoff performances (Lebron has some of the latter, none of the former). So Bird is obviously still the greatest SF ever. But Lebron is probably a better player right now than Bird was, if not by much at all. Hard to say. Anyway barring injury Lebron will be the best by the end of his career.
August 13th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Young Lebron 23 says:
1.Larry Legend
2.LBJ
3.Scottie
4.Dr.J
5.Iceman
August 13th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
Ashlov says:
Holy shit, why the fuck hasn’t anyone mentioned Craig Ehlo?
August 13th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
K Dizzle says:
Straight comedy how Doc is the only one to give props to Big Game James. I’m seein names on heads’ top ten list that couldn’t guard Worhty if they lives depended on it. Dude won a Finals MVP on squads with Kareem and Magic. Give RESPECT where it’s due. This list be showin how young posters be on this website.
Here’s your list (in no order cuz any day of the week any of these guys could straight bust on anyone else on it):
Bird, Julius, Worthy, Barry, Scottie, Lebron, Nique, B-King, Hondo, Baylor
All the rest please kick rocks
Peace
August 13th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
daquest?on says:
1. Dr. J
2. Larry Bird
3. Scottie Pippen
4. Nique
5. Lebron
August 13th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
Matt says:
1. Larry Bird
2. Scottie Pippen
3. Nique
4.Dr. J
5. Bernard King
how can anyone even consider putting lebron in their top five? hes an outstanding player, but hasnt won anything.
August 13th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Dagomar says:
Matt, what did Nique win?
August 13th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
schoops says:
Nigue won a playoff series… oh wait, he didn’t. If Nigue is top 3 then McGrady when he finishes his career (if it stays on this course) is top 5 as well…. but he’s not.
I think it’s hard to rate (in list format) the skills of Bird compared to Pippen for example. I’d rather have Bird shooting the last shot, but I’d rather have Pippen guarding the last shot.
August 13th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
lee says:
LBJ might never win a championship. If he signs a max deal it’s going to be even harder for a GM to surround him with talented player. I can see him demanding $150 mill contract and having to play with even worse guys than he has now. Shame to waste a career like that …
August 13th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
lee says:
Also Pippen was a second tier star, he’s good but I wouldn’t have him as an all time top 5, he only led a team for 1 1/2 seasons.
August 13th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
Luigi says:
man if LBJ cant win one..that will be dissapointing. but im sure he’ll win a title or 2.
oh n NFL Fans…Chad Johnson might change his name to Chad Ocho Cinco
like his last name is Ocho Cinco..
dime should make write an article about changing last players names to something crazy. lol
August 13th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
luke says:
lebron hasnt surpassed pippen and bird yet but he will barring injury
August 13th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
dagwaller says:
Bird at 1, got here a little late to read everything and reply, great topic though. Btw Austin, I thought it was funny of you to put Marion in there.
Real quick, though – Bird wasn’t a bad defender. Just for argument’s sake, even taking into account his later (injury plagued, slower) years, he averaged 1.7 spg for his career, while Lebron, still in his youth and hustle/quickness/supreme athleticism, is at 1.8.
Also, Dominique Wilkins won a few playoff series, schoops.
August 14th, 2008 at 12:17 am
KT says:
This is a great topic, wish I coulda chimed in earlier. Gotta give the nod to Larry Legend just, because he was THE MAN is Boston and Scottie had a guy named MJ to protect him. But Scottie is a close second in my book. I love defense versitility and athleticism. Dr. J is number 3 and LBJ is #4 for a couple more seasons. Then we will witnessed him hopscoth everyone
August 14th, 2008 at 1:33 am
knoc says:
spain over germany woooot!
and yahoo news totally dont know what theyre saying
“Gasol, of the NBA’s San Antonio Spurs, scored 13 points Thursday, while the Toronto Raptors’ Jose Manuel Calderon led Spain with 15 points and Alex Mumbru shot 67 percent from the floor for 14 points, draining all three of his three pointers.”
since when did gasol go to the spurs!?!?!?! dude needs to get fired.
August 14th, 2008 at 7:41 am
nao_diga says:
A lot of good players to pick from. I’m surprised Bernard King didn’t get mentioned.
I’d rather have him than Dominique on most teams. He didn’t make highlight reels with spectacular dunks, but his stats are comparable to Wilkins, and he dragged a pretty mediocre Knicks team into the playoffs on his back a time or two.
August 14th, 2008 at 9:59 am
Celts Fan says:
I guess I’m too young, always thought Big Game James was a 4. Guess it’s cuz he didn’t seem athletic enough to be a 3 (but the greatest one ever – Larry Legend – seems less athletic than Oliver Miller, so I guess it doesn’t matter.) Also always pictured ‘Nique as a 2 for some reason. Both are HOFers, just thought they were legends at other positions. Funny how memories change 2 decades later…
The revised list from post 39:
1. Larry Legend
2. Dr. J
3. Hondo
4. Pippen
5. Big Game James
6. Rick Barry
7. Elgin
8. LeBron (I just can’t put a guy about to start only his 6th year above the legends we have over him right now who’ve accomplished so much more. They’re keeping a seat warm for him, but right now, it’s too early.)
9. Nique (never made the Finals, so he’s gotta be behind Bron, who’s already put up some legendary exploits to match Nique’s.)
August 14th, 2008 at 10:04 am
Austin Burton says:
Funny, when I was saying I’d rather take Tony Parker (three championships) over Deron Williams (zero), a lot of people said I was crazy. Now it’s “LeBron hasn’t won anything, how can you put him above James Worthy/Havlicek/etc.?” At least LeBron has made the Finals and has been on an All-Star team, something Deron hasn’t done. (And I REALLY like Deron’s game, too, I just prefer the guy with the rings.)
August 14th, 2008 at 10:15 am
karizmatic says:
Yeah I’m disappointed I didn’t catch this yesterday. In all fairness Lebron is going to be a top 5 SF we shouldn’t put him there yet after only five years, but what the hell. I’d go Bird, Dr. J. Pippen, Dominique, and LBJ, I have to consider Elgin Baylor as well. As far as Marion, Austin you forget he’s not technically a SF no matter what he’s listed as, he’s been playing most of his career as an undersized PF, while he’s insanely talented to do that he doesn’t really belong in a conversation about Small Forwards. Depending on how the heat decide to run with Beasley this will be the first time where Marion is getting serious time at the 3. He’s a classic tweener, can’t really classify him at all, he’s just a baller. What’s interesting is, where is Paul Pierce on this list, he just won a ring, he averaged 25 5 and 5 for some years, where is he at? No love for The Truth?
August 14th, 2008 at 10:21 am
Austin Burton says:
@karizmatic — Marion identifies himself as a SF, which is good enough for me. From what I recall, he always played the three before D’Antoni/Nash came along, when he was moved to the four and Amare was moved to center.
August 14th, 2008 at 10:27 am
schoops says:
Sorry, I meant never won a finals… but i still think him and Tmac compare… especially after this year when houston gets outta the second round with crazy artest.
paul pierce is honorable mention. He never made a finals until two other all stars showed up, and the year before his team won only 18 games. Hard to put him top 5… but if thy win another chip before he retires and he dominates in the finals again, then he can be considered maybe borderline top 5…
August 14th, 2008 at 10:37 am
Ian says:
michael
bob fuckin pet is the second best power foward ever
duncan
bob
charles
malone
garnett
now on the small fowards someone mentioned gervin yes hes top 5 but in the sg list not sf
bird
dr j
rick
pippen
lebron
August 14th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Ian says:
austin
thats like i said that everytime someone talks about a spurs player they always use stats from guys that havent won shit to say they are better but when its about someone else championships come in play
if we ranked pgs parker should be light years ahead of deron
and u know whats funny i even read comments about how deron doesnt have talent around him to win
another one was that someone fool mentioned that it took tony 5 seasons to make the allstar team as an excuse that deron hasnt been an allstar but what he didnt mention was that tony was 23 when he made his 1st allstar team how old will deron be IF he makes the allstar team next season 24.
oh parker isnt the best playeron his team and deron is , if u traded deron for parker deron would win also. yeah prob but the fools didnt realize is that deron wouldnt be the best player on the spurs either.
August 14th, 2008 at 10:57 am
Tyson says:
Tell him to get a ring, then we’ll think about it.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Celts Fan says:
Deron’s better than Parker IMO. Deron’s the best player on his team, Parker’s 3rd best on his team. If you switch them, the Spurs still get rings, Utah isn’t as good as they were. Having said that, it’s definitely a legit discussion that I could see both sides of, but from my standpoint, if you start a team from scratch and have to pick 1 of them, I’m taking Deron. I’d put TP right behind him though, so it’s definitely close…
Also, I LOVE Paul Pierce, he’s my favorite player in the league, have had season tickets for his entire career, but he’s not a top 10 SF of all time and barring them rattling off 3 more chips and/or Paul winning an MVP, he’s not getting any higher than 10 at best. IF he wins another chip, he MAY slide into #10. He just hasn’t won enough to go any higher. He’s not the career loser- Pre ’08 of course – that lots of people make him out to be (he got to the ECF with Antoine Walker as the #2 option and Kenny Anderson starting! and went to the Playoffs many times with similarly garbage teams,) but he’s not top 10 w/out another chip and another really impressive year at the very least.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:47 am
jeremy says:
@Ian
parker and dwill’s ages don’t matter. if williams becomes an all star next year he will have done it quicker than parker did. you’re penalizing him for being born earlier but he has less league experience and thats the only thing that matters.
August 14th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Austin Burton says:
So how long will it take Deron to win a ring? Parker did it in his second season in the NBA; starting all 82 games (15.5 ppg, 5.3 apg), and at time the Spurs won he was the youngest or 2nd-youngest player to ever win a championship. Deron’s already behind pace.
August 14th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
doc says:
@AB ANd he didnt play the 4th quarter in them games and if D-Will played with Duncan he would have a chip by now 2.You sound crazy talking like Tony won that chip.The main finals story that year was Tony playing his replacement in the finals.Cut it out dog they was getting that chip regardless if YOU was the point.They had Mr.20-20-10-8.Thats why Tony got a chip in his second year.Hell Scott Williams did that.Sam Cassell had one in his first so he better than both right?
August 14th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
jeremy says:
we are talking about who’s better individually– having the best pf ever on your squad probably elevates your team accomplishments just a little bit. individually, i and anyone with a brain believes, deron williams is a better player.
August 14th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Austin Burton says:
I’d just like to see an All-Star berth. That’s all I ask. Then we can start asking who’s better.
August 14th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Ian says:
jeremy
lol omg did u really post that about penalizin one cuz he was born earlier
hahahahahahaha
im talking about the pace hahahahaha
if deron makes the team next season no he didnt make it faster than parker wtf are you sayin
for to players to be so close in age an parker being ahead of deron in everything
celts fan u r right
im sayin its up with discussion my prob is with all the fools that dont consider everything and say its a no brainer
doc
dont be a fool we are talking about stars on championship teams
the best deal the spurs did that summer was not trading parker for ason kidd
so i guess longley is better then ewing by your logic
dont compare role players in championship teams with the stars
scott williams thats your answer to the parker debate
so ill say it again if parker isnt that big a deal cuz he has duncan
pippen kareem mchale dumars dr j and the list goes on arent that big a deal cuz de werent the best player on their championship teams i guess deron is better than all of them cuz hes the best player on a team that hasnt won shit
trust me if the spurs had deron and jazz parker u would be arguing in favor of parker
August 14th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Ian says:
lol thats right austin
we are arguin whos better a 2 time allstar 3 time champion 1 time finals mvp
vs
a dude that plays for the jazz
August 14th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Austin Burton says:
@Ian — Deron won the Skills Challenge.
Again, I’m not trying to bash Deron at all, and I can see why some people would take him over Parker. But like Ian said, I don’t understand why everyone’s acting like it’s a no-brainer and that Deron is WAY better than Parker. He’s not. Depending on what you’re looking for in a PG, Deron could be considered slightly better than Parker at best, just like Parker is slightly better than Deron. We’re not comparing Allen Iverson and Dan Dickau here; it’s a close contest, and both players are great at what they do. And it won’t surprise me if Deron ultimately accomplishes more than Parker. But right now, when Deron’s sitting on zero Finals appearances and zero All-Star games, there’s no way you can say he’s WAY better than someone with 3 chips, 1 Finals MVP and two All-Star berths.
August 14th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Ian says:
yup its all i being sayin that u can make a case for deron parker and paul and valid ones for each one
but no brainer fuck no
August 14th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
jeremy says:
@ ian
are you serious????
“im talking about the pace hahahahaha
if deron makes the team next season no he didnt make it faster than parker wtf are you sayin”
i’m pretty sure, no wait i’m positive because i have the ability to count, if deron is an all star in his 3rd year he would be on a faster pace than tp because he didn’t become an all star until his 6th year.
3 comes before 6, just to let ya know
August 14th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Ian says:
lol who cares about that
i know parker was an allstar at age 23 deron MIGHT at age 24 so yeah i guess parker did it faster
cuz i know 3 comes before 4
August 14th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
jeremy says:
wow i cant even argue with “simple jacks” like you.
August 14th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
doc says:
@Ian Im a fool and Tony made it in his 6th year and D-Will in his 3rd but he off pace?Okay.Like I said before,his rings dont hold that status with me because of Tim.No Longley better than Ewing by YOUR LOGIC because he got hardware right?And Mchale aint a big deal because AB said Chuck and his NO HARDWARE better than Machale.Dr J and them carried teams for years.My point is fuck Tony rings I think you mixed up.Scottie took a team to the East Finals his 1 year carrying a team.Let Tony carry a team before we start putting him over dudes that did.He got his 2 all star games its a wrap for him now that the 2 young guns in his conference and we all know it.And who said D-Will way better.I just said he better and its a no brainer for me.If Tony played for Utah I would be a fan.That shows you dont read because Im one of the dudes that say the Spurs are the shit.I never could stand fucking Utah.Its just that I know this game and Tony aint fucking with D-Will.Hoe you gonna tell a black man he would like somebody if they played for Utah.Im suprised I like D-Will so much but its because I like game and he got it.Tony do to but not like him.
August 14th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
mtljimbop says:
ADRIAN DANTLEY !
What the heck?!? 96 replies plus the original article and no mention of ADRIAN DANTLEY?!?!?
Wilt called him the best inside scorer ever besides him and Kareem. And this is at 6’5″.
It took way too long for ADRIAN DANTLEY to get into the hall of fame. I continue to be puzzled by why so many in the basketball world are not aware of how great he was.
1. BIRD
2. DANTLEY
3. BAYLOR
4. HAVLICEK
August 14th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Austin Burton says:
@Doc — Deron hasn’t carried a team either. He has multiple All-Stars around him.
August 14th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
Kevin K says:
don’t compare KG to Tim Duncan, it’s not even close. it’s like comparing clyde drexler who was a phenomnal player in his own rights to MJ who is a legend…
Lebron will be the best SF ever when he finishes the league.
1)Pippen – championships, O, D, played perfectly with the greatest player ever
2)Bird – likely still drop 18-20ppg with his skill set
3)Grant Hill in his pre injured days – did people forget how sick he was???) He was Lebron with more skills without the freakish speed and strength.
August 14th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Kevin K says:
century
August 14th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Ian says:
doc lol i stopped readin when u said pippen carried a team to the east finals
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
wat season was that lol please go recheck your stats
ab
they make it sound like deron is playin in minnesota
August 16th, 2008 at 11:24 am
bsteezy3 says:
SCOTTIE PIPPEN. Everyone talkin’ about “who’s the next Jordan?” Half of these new cats can’t even fuck with Scottie Pippen…
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:41 am
Bizil says:
This is an argument that me and my boys talk about all the time. I see that Scottie Pippen is getting a lot of support to be in the top 3 SF’s ever. The problem I have with that is when it comes down to it the best of the best can put a team on his back and will a team to victory through high scoring and clutch shots. Even though James Worthy was a third option behind Kareem and Magic, a lot of the time he could put a team on his back and will them to victory. Pip never showed me that ability enough. Now if we are talking about the best all around or most complete three then Pippen is arguably the best ever. But Havlicek was known as a great all around player with great defense, but at the same time he was the man on his team and scored more than Pippen. Bird and Rick Barry were also great point forward type of players with excellent all around ability. They couldn’t defend like Pippen or handle the ball like Pippen, but everything else they were better at than Pippen except for athletic ability. Plus they were the number one option on there teams. Pure scorers like Dr. J, Nique, and Bernard King didn’t have Pippen’s D or handle, but when it came to having the ability to carry a team and win a game almost singlehandedly they owned Pippen. So with that said here is my list:
1. Bird
2. Dr. J
3. Havlicek
4. Nique
5. Baylor
6. Barry
7. Bernard King
8. Pippen
9. Lebron (will be the best, so damn good he belongs)
10.Worthy
Honorable Mention: Pierce, Alex English, Mullin, Worthy, Grant Hill, Marion, Glen Rice, Detlef Schrempf
Watch for future: Melo
August 11th, 2009 at 9:50 am
free says:
doc,pipp,nique,b king and then maybe larry bird,bird was ok but he as great as it made out to be,he was like the great white hope of basketball,rent or buy some old games and watch for urself ,not just the highlight,but to really know basketball u got to have game urself,do u ?