Highs and Lows: San Antonio Spurs
Tim Duncan (photo. adidas)The NBA preseason is underway. While we wait for the real games to start, we’re going team-by-team, from 1 to 30, exploring where each team’s ceiling is for the upcoming season and where their basement is. In other words, what are the realistic best-case and worst-case scenarios for each squad?
Additions: PG George Hill, SG Roger Mason Jr., SG Salim Stoudamire.
Losses: SG Brent Barry, PG Damon Stoudamire, PF Robert Horry.
Ceiling: NBA championship
If you’re into quirky stats and neat little trends, the mere fact that we’re going into an odd-numbered year is enough to put the Spurs (NBA champs in ‘99, ‘03, ‘05 and ‘07) high on the list of title contenders worth putting money on. Even if numerology isn’t your style, no matter what digit you tack on to the end of the calendar, you still have to recognize San Antonio as a championship favorite. Is Tim Duncan in the midst of that inevitable athletic decline that manifests itself even faster for seven-footers? Sure. But seeing as he registered 19.3 points, 11.3 boards and 1.9 blocks last season — then bumped those numbers to 20.2, 14.5 and 2.1 in the playoffs — there are still, at best, maybe three ballplayers in the entire world you’d rather have on your side if you needed to win a game today. Some of the other “old” Spurs that were exposed in the playoffs (Barry, Stoudamire, Horry) have been replaced by new blood (Mason, Hill, Ian Mahinmi), while effective vets like Bruce Bowen, Kurt Thomas, Ime Udoka and Mike Finley are still around. Tony Parker is in his prime at 26, and no one remembers this, but he gave it to Chris Paul in the conference semis just as well as he got it. In typical Spurs fashion, they’ll start slow — especially with Manu Ginobili missing significant time following offseason ankle surgery — but after the All-Star break, San Antone will get the wheels in motion to kick it into that “invincible” gear come playoff time.
Basement: Second-round playoff exit
The elements exist for the perfect storm that would result in the Spurs underachieving like they never have in the Duncan era. Ginobili’s long layoff could put San Antonio in an early hole that, as tough as the Southwest Division is (Rockets, Hornets, Mavs), will be harder to climb out of, especially as the Spurs are trying to integrate newcomers into the mix. And what if Mahinmi isn’t as good as the organization thinks he is? What if this is the year Duncan noticeably goes downhill? What if Ginobili is never quite himself after he returns? What if Salim Stoudamire and Mason can’t replace the outside shooting they got from Barry? What if they lost some kind of lucky charm by letting Horry go? If the Spurs end up with a lower seed going into the playoffs (meaning no home-court in the first round), there are definitely a few teams in the West that could take them out. However…Duncan has never in his career lost in the first round of the playoffs. And he still has the NBA’s best backcourt on his side, the NBA’s best coach, and a solid group of vets who know their roles and don’t get rattled. The Spurs-haters would love to see them fall, but this isn’t the year.
‘08-09 NBA preview archives
10/8 — Chicago Bulls
10/6 — Oklahoma City Thunder
10/3 — Washington Wizards
10/2 — Utah Jazz
10/1 — Charlotte Bobcats
9/30 — Memphis Grizzlies
9/26 — Toronto Raptors
9/25 — New Orleans Hornets
9/24 — Atlanta Hawks
9/23 — Sacramento Kings
9/22 — Miami Heat
9/19 — Portland Trail Blazers
9/18 — New Jersey Nets
9/17 — Minnesota Timberwolves
9/16 — Cleveland Cavaliers
9/15 — Phoenix Suns
9/12 — Milwaukee Bucks
9/11 — L.A. Clippers
9/10 — Orlando Magic
October 9th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
TL says:
Go Bruce Bowen!
October 9th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
TWolves Convert says:
NBA’s best backcourt? I don’t really argue, but Piston’s backcourt could put up a good fight.
October 9th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
fallinup says:
Bruce Bowen is my hero!
October 9th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
da man says:
If the Spurs win it all this year (and it’s not that farfetched of an idea) will that finally win people over? The reason why they ain’t getting younger is because young doesn’t necessarily equal good. Look at Charlotte. The spurs organization knows what they’re doing and are going to retool accordingly. It’s gonna be ugly when duncan and manu leaves. parker is the only superstar young enough to bridge the gap between championship caliber and rebuilding mode.
October 9th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
fallinup says:
I got one reason and one reason only why I think the Spurs won’t win a ring this year, and are probably on the decline…
OLD
October 9th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
control says:
Manu being out won’t really affect the Spurs too much, he’s just the best role player on the team. Finley can step into that position easy enough, or they could rotate a few 10 dayers.
The Spurs ARE getting old though, their window is closing as fast as the Suns…but at least the Spurs snatched a few rings first.
October 9th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Austin Burton says:
“Old” like the Celtics?
October 9th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Three Stacks says:
Ginobili’s early injury could be a blessing in disguise, since the guy usually gets hurt during the season anyway. Maybe he’ll stay fresh for the playoffs when he gets back.
Spurs still scare the crap outta me. But they didn’t necessarily do anything to get better over the summer, while the Lakers get Bynum back, Mavs get a whole yr w/ Kidd, NO gets a yr of experience and Posey, Suns learned defense, Utah is still a lot younger, etc.
October 9th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Daily boy says:
Man forget the Spurs, bunch of old bum w/solid fundamentals. I hope my Hornets Mop the Floor with these punks.
Geaux Hornets!!!!!!!!
October 9th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Ross says:
Go Spurs
October 9th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
djKianoosh says:
For an organization that did a lot of things right early in the decade in putting this team together, they made one potentially disastrous move that could really hurt them, and that is letting Scola go to the Rockets. He could have really helped them last year and he’s only getting better. Yes, he is a little older, just like Manu, but he’s a contributor and could have fit nicely with Duncan.
I think that void is going to present itself again this year. The Spurs are a great team and I love watching them because they just execute and get whatever they want on offense on most nights. But they really need the young guys to grow quickly.
Finley is supposedly in great shape, so maybe he can fill in while Manu is out. Hopefully his stroke is back, cause last year was not a good year for Finley.
October 9th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
spindlest says:
I think the Robert Horry “lucky charm” was the cheap shots he was willing to dole out cheap shots that the other players aren’t willing to. Call me a hater, but his cheap shots (or whatever you want to call them) had a big influence on the spurs’ playoff runs 2 years in a row, and they weren’t exactly classy maneuvers.
October 9th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
the antoine says:
nbas best backcourt? thats funny.. i know you love the spurs and all.. but thats pushing it.. billups and hamilton, kobe and fish, nash and bell, paul and whoever is sg.. best backcourt.. i scoff at the notion..
October 9th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
it ain't easy being green says:
because they play that fundamental brand of ball so many hate, age is not as much of a factor as if they played a run’n'gun type of game. However over the past 2 years the west has become so deep, I don’t think it’s gonna happen for them. 1 more injury to a major player and this isn’t even a contender. I also think if NO had posey last year the spurs lose. Though it doesn’t matter cuz my C’s are repeating anyway.
October 9th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Sweet English says:
I think da man has a point that although the spurs are not OLD old yet, at one point they will be and will need an ENTIRE new generation of players, which is gonna be a MASSIVE fall from grace. Fair enough the Celtics are kinda OLD but D. Ainge made that sacrafice after the ‘young’ celtics had a disastarous 06-07 season. He could either build the young Celtics up to a mediocre team or go all out, trade 7 young players with ‘potential’ for KG and get one of the most succesful sporting franchises of all time some of its long lost dignity back for a couple of years, give the Celtics Fans (me included) some bragging rights before eventually beggining to build the team back up in 2 or 3 years on top of players who have grown exponentially in talent playing with the Big Three. Fair enough KG, Allen and Pierce are gonna be on the down turn soon, but the post season experience that players like Rondo and Perkins have recieved by playing with them at there peak is gonna be worth a million Gerald Greens, and vital to the Celtics continuing on as a top level team in future years. (Rondo WILL be an all star guard)
Can the spurs really say they have got those apprentices and young gunners who are gonna be better for playing on this ageing team? as far as i can see, there starting five is already dwindelling with age and i cannot see any one there who can pick up the pieces, not even parker when the shit hits the fan, and eventually, the Fans.
October 9th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Ian says:
antoine
sounds like u a spurs hater
kobe and fish ???? paul and whoever???? yeahhh right gtfoh
the only backcourt that can hang with the spurs are the pistons
and to everyone sayin they are to old when has the young team ever won a ring???? the old celtics the heat with the old shaq before that so please keep your young legs they are fun for the season but in the playoffs they dont work.
it aint easy
really posey makes the diff to beat the spurs lol sure
control
damn manu is a role player and finley can easily fill his spot???? did u really post this manu is one of the top players in the game hes no role player u can hate the guy but calling an allstar and a winner a role player is talking bs.
dj
supposely thats the reason they traded scola because they didnt think he and duncan could play together
austin what took u so long to do the spurs
i think the injury to manu is not a bad thing that way he starts in january and be rested for the playoffs
YOUNG DOESNT WIN RINGSSSS
October 9th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
knoc says:
TP and Manu gave every other backcourt in the league fits. Best backcourt duo for sure.
October 9th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
parinaz suns says:
f the spurs. hopefully their reign is over. i know that duncan is one of the greatest PFs of all time, but i still hate them and their hick fans
October 9th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Ian says:
sweet english
u kinda have a point but remember the spurs aside from all the talented scouts have luck on their side also
the spurs have always been one of the best teams in the nba (3rd in wins behind lakers and celtics) and never 3 losing seasons in a row. when they lose everyone parker will still be in his prime and everything can change with one pick assuming they dont have anyone and parker is alone.(robinson and duncan lucky yes but hey it happens). but damn if the spurs have to rebuild in a couple of years i dont know if im going to get used to it because they never had to even in the 2 seasons we waited for robinson didnt feel bad cuz we knew he was coming. the 97 season scared me but hey it worked out.
October 9th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Ian says:
knoc
they are the best backcourt
October 9th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
aj says:
Spurs fan here…
I feel they’ve got one more legit year to win a chip. If they pull it off this year then the next season looks good too but if they get beat this year, I think you’ll see them turn into the Pistons of right now and start developing young guys while winning most games but not being good enough.
Their lack of very young talent is concerning to me but I’d still rather try and win now than do what the Pistons are doing and rip their fans hearts out by being good but not great.
October 9th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Tyrone says:
Them Spurs are gonna be tight y’all – they got demselves a true stud in Timmy D whose gonna lead them to the ’ship yet again. Ain’t nobody who can stop them.
True thugs never lie.
Tyrone
October 9th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
control says:
Ian,
Manu held up really well when TD and TP were out last season eh? The guy is a role player, and he does pretty damn good in that role. The Spurs will win with him out, and will go on a small losing streak when he gets back, because they have to shuffle their role players to offset his return. If for some reason Manu’s career ends and he doesn’t get back, he will be more easily replaced than TD, TP or even Pops. I’m not saying he’s not a skilled player, but don’t be cracking all out by saying he’s anything more than a good solid role player.
October 9th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
jayslay says:
@control
yea man i agree while manu is a good player he is nothin more than a role player..also u really cant say the spurs have the best backcourt when alot of the time manu comes off the bench..i give the edge 2 the pistons right now but watch out 4 atl joe johnson and mike bibby they gon be nice….but u cant use the spurs cuz manu come off the bench most of the time
October 9th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Big V says:
Marbury + Crawford > Parker + Ginobili
October 9th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Austin Burton says:
Yeah, Manu is a role player. His role is to score 20 points a night and be one of the go-to guys in crunch time.
October 9th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
smity far away says:
tough call. i’m thinking their ceiling is more like the finals (unless they play anyone other than the celtics)
October 9th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
control says:
Big V,
Even with my dislike for Manu in general, there ain’t no way Marbury + Crawford > Parker + Manu. That is pure crazy nonsense talk there. Only the most rabid of Knicks fans would even dare say such a retarded statement.
AB,
Who is better, Manu or Ben Gordan?
October 9th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
jayslay says:
@ austin
yea that is manu role but the difference is if u take him off the spurs they are still a DECENT team…they arent champs but they are good….he is not the best or second best player on that team….while he might be one of the best in the game are u gonna tell me that if he played 38 mpg he would be as effective for 82 games???? thats y he is a role player…TP and Timmy are the stars on this team
October 9th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Austin Burton says:
@jayslay — Just because you’re the 3rd-best on the team doesn’t mean you can’t be a star. By your logic, Ray Allen and Rip Hamilton are role players. What about James Worthy or Dennis Rodman? If you wanna call them role players, you can’t also say they’re easily replaceable. Manu plays 30-plus minutes a night; I think he could handle an extra seven.
October 9th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
chiaki says:
@ AB
have you found a new team? who are you gonna go with this season? is it the spurs?
October 9th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Austin Burton says:
Decision ‘08 is coming soon.
October 9th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
Ian says:
control
now i know u talking nonsense manu or ben gordon that does nothing but shoot pleaseeee man stop posting your hate here hes not a role player didnt he make an allstar team
isnt he the crunch time guy for the spurs
isnt he the ONLY player ever to win nba euro and olympic gold.
hes top 20 in the nba and if u go check the lists some people posted of the top 15 u will see manu in some of them
austin i dont think manu is the third best player on the spurs
jayslay
so third best player equals role player u must be crazy if joe johnson gets traded to the spurs hes the third best player so is ray allen so is kevin martin are those role players?
October 10th, 2008 at 12:29 am
jayslay says:
wat exactly is a role player???? i mean im not sayin manu is not a killer or a beast what im sayin if u are the third best on ur team then ur role is a role player i mean manu comes off the bench 4 the most part so wat is he a star????
ian-if joe johnson went to the spurs yes he would be a role player he would be a very good one but still a role player…kevin martin and manu in the same breath???? u serious???
austin-ray allen is a horrible example….hell yea ray is a role playeron boston yea he still is a star but yea hes a role playersame as dennis rodman
October 10th, 2008 at 12:35 am
w says:
As a laker fan i absolutely hate the spurs.
That being said i think the season preview is dead on. Even though i hate manu’s flops and bowen’s bs, you have to respect a proven team like this. They didn’t just get those rings in cracker jack boxes…
They’ll be contenders untill duncan’s done. Oh and I’d take kobe n fish over parker n manu.
October 10th, 2008 at 2:49 am
dagwaller says:
Wow, there is some serious hate going on in these comments. No other way to explain some of the foolishness being said…
…but instead of speaking to that, I’m going to go out on a limb and say that I don’t think that TD will experience nearly as sharp of a decline as a lot of 7 footers. His thing his entire career has been his “fundamentals”. It’s not like he’s going to forget how to shoot 15 foot bank shots from the elbow. He’s on the short list of greatest power forwards OF ALL TIME – he’ll be a thorn in the side of my favorite teams for a while longer.
October 10th, 2008 at 8:45 am
djKianoosh says:
dagwaller is right… Duncan’s game isn’t completely based on athleticism and above the rim type stuff. He might become an old man and slow down on the court, but he’ll still be working bigs with his fundamentals and knowledge. Young guys don’t stand a chance. Ask Amare how he’s felt over the years trying to defend him. Hopefully for Amare, he can learn some D now that Shaq’s with him.
Put it this way. He’s still an advantage for the Spurs against over 95-98% of the league and he’ll stay that way for several more years. I hope so anyway. I like his game.
October 10th, 2008 at 10:05 am
control says:
Ian,
What does Manu do that Gordan doesn’t? Flop around and make a fool of himself?
On most of those lists that I seen Manu in the top 15 (usually around 15th), you didn’t see TD or TP, or a lot of players clearly better than Manu on them. Here are 20 people better than Manu (in no particular order):
Nash
Amare
Shaq (yes, even old man Shaq)
Tmac
Yao
Ron Ron (as crazy as he is, he’s pretty damn good)
Kidd
Dirk
Josh Howard
TD
TP
Baron
Melo
AI
Kobe
Lamar Oden
Gasol
Boozer
Camby
Deron Williams
AK47
Chris Paul
David West
Brandon Roy
I’m over 20 in just the west, and I didn’t even include people who can be disputed, or are unproven (Okur, Harington, Greg Oden, etc)
Even if you dispute some of that list, here are a few in the east to supplement the list.
Vince (even in don’t give a fuck mode)
Wade
Bosh
Bron Bron
KG
Pierce
Ray Allen
Arenas
Jaimson
Butler
Most of Detroit
Dwight Howard
Feel free to disagree, but taking an honest and impartial look at that list, you can see Manu isn’t top 15 in the league. Maybe top 15 at his position…Maybe.
October 10th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Austin Burton says:
@control — Is “star” status only reserved for 20 players?
October 10th, 2008 at 11:45 am
control says:
AB,
Not at all, I am just disputing Ian’s claim that Manu is a top 20 player in the NBA.
To dispute Manu’s status as a “Star” I would probably use as an example, the games Manu has had to carry the burden while TD and TP were out. When Manu is the “go-to” guy on the Spurs, he ultimately under performs.
Being the 3rd best player on the team doesn’t discount him from the possibility of being a “Star” (Boston for example has 3 stars in KG, PP, Ray Ray), but if you consider Manu a “Star” because he has come through in the clutch a few times for the Spurs, you would then have to consider calling Big Shot Bob a “Star” as well.
Keep in mind I am referring to his NBA Career, his accomplishments in the world game are unrelated. He has carried a team on the world stage, but I don’t believe he can carry his team on the NBA stage. I believe carrying a team is one of the benchmarks by which you should define someone as a “Star”.
October 10th, 2008 at 11:58 am
Austin Burton says:
Manu’s been clutch more than a few times. Who does San Antonio want to send to the line whenever they’re protecting a lead? Manu. And seeing as they’ve won A LOT of games during his career, that would tell me he’s pretty clutch. The go-to perimeter player on a team with three championships in the last six years would seem pretty clutch to me, as well as a star.
Dec. 5 and Dec. 7 of this past year. Manu had back-to-back 37-point games while Duncan was out, both wins against the Mavs and Jazz.
October 10th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
control says:
The Spurs have won A LOT of games since they picked up Tim Duncan. The Spurs have won A LOT of championships since they have picked up Tim Duncan. The key there being Tim Duncan.
He has came through in the clutch for the Spurs, how many times can you say that he has came through in the clutch without Tim Duncan there to draw double teams and the focus of the defenders?
It’s not easy to say that a guy who has 14/4/4 career averages is a “Star”. If you do then you are making a case for anyone who has sustained those or better averages. Like I said, he’s a decent player, definitely in the top 100 players in the NBA, but I just can’t agree that he is a “Star”.
Also, I understand TD is old for a big man, but Manu is just a year younger than him. Manu’s reckless style (and flopping) have taken a lot more toll on him than TD’s style has taken on him. Manu will decline more sharply than TD. If anything, Manu can now officially be describe as “injury prone”. He has never done 80 games in a season, sitting around mid 70s, and he will be lucky to get 55 this year.
October 10th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Ian says:
control
of course duncan is the man but u said 14 4 4 those are career avgs those dont make manu a hofer but hes a 20 5 5 player NOW that makes him an allstar NOW.
of course manu will decline faster than duncan he has to
and the list u mention ak josh howard most pistons carter allen gasoft west im not going to continue and u put in the end that manu is maybeeee top 15 as a sg and u tell me u are not being a hater please control leave it at that .
October 10th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Ian says:
what can manu do that gordon cant? lol u serious how about everything on the court BEN GORDON HAHAHAHA ok man
sorry to disappoint but manu is a 20 5 5 player now that plays less minutes than most stars and is still the leading scorer of the spurs never seen a role player lead his team in scoring
just need to check the per leaders
jayslay kevin martin pleaseeeeeeeeee hes on a bad team plays 5 more minutes than manu takes more shots and his numbers arent as good as manus all aroung wtf are u talking about hater. dont bring ok player on bad teams into this
October 10th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Thaisito says:
shaq, kidd , josh howard, odom ,gasol, boozer, ak , west , vince , allen , washington trio , kevin martin!!!!!!
“taking an IMPARTIAL look at the list you can see manu is not top 15 maybe top 15 SG”. top 15 sg hes top 2-5
can i ask you what did manu do to your team that you sir are writing all this nonsense?
do you think that if manu were a free agent he wouldnt get more money than ben gordon? because he is getting paid more wonder why?
i hardly post but you didnt make one good point in your comments.
one thing is to post opinions but when you add shaq kidd gordon to a comment like this doesnt make you sound impartial.
October 10th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
control says:
Ian,
Vince Carter isn’t better than Manu?
Billups, Sheed and maybe Rip ain’t better than Manu?
Ray Allen ain’t better than Manu?
David West isn’t better than Manu?
I would be willing to debate Josh Howard, that could go both ways. Josh DID average more points, rebounds and less turn overs. His performance in the playoffs really hurt though.
Manu has lead the Spurs in scoring ONCE in the 6 years he’s been there, and that was by .2, in a season where TD and TP were reportedly playing hurt most of the time (and TD still managed to play more games than Manu). We will have to wait and see how Manu does this season compared to TD and TP.
Also, if you want to talk about per 48…even Michael Finley does almost as good as Manu. Per 48 can make some pretty scrub ass players look DAMN good.
This is about all I will give Manu. He’s a good role player who has had some “Star” performances for the Spurs. He can in no way, shape, or form carry the Spurs, nor if he were THE MAN on the team, would it have even close to it’s current history of winning.
October 10th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
control says:
Thaisito,
Even taking all of those off the list (despite some of those players are OBVIOUSLY A LOT more skilled than Manu), there are still over 20 players on the list.
I’m sure we could move Kobe and Lebron off the list…Manu is better than either of them eh?
Lets just call it this, Manu is best player in the world, straight out, case closed end of discussion.
Manu is a unlucky man (or lucky, depending on your sexuality), he’s got more doods on his jock than shit has flies.
October 10th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
dagwaller says:
Let me make this real simple.
Ask yourself, “is the player that I’ve cited on the All-NBA team?” Unless his name is Manu Ginobili, you have exactly 14 other names to choose from. Otherwise, the odds are that you’re wrong.
October 10th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
control says:
dagwaller,
Not that simple son. You can’t honestly say that Manu is better than Elton Brand, or even a player like Melo, or even Vince Carter at his laziest. Well, you can say it, but it won’t make it true.
He has made the All Nba Third team once…but so did some guy named “Eddie Jones”. That ain’t the be-all end-all of this discussion, sorry.
October 10th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Thaisito says:
call it what you want control you are wrong an a hater.
October 10th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Ian says:
is not the end all be all but its better than any argument u have made
this a discussion only u jay and some fool that posts here called hatinonmanu will backup
like i said its your opinion and u can hate but u cant say hes maybe a top 15 sg when he got to the all nba team
thats only 4 guards overall ahead of him
odds are u r wrong
October 10th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
control says:
Thaisito,
I dislike Manu’s style of play. I am not denying that he has some skills, but I think his fan base over hypes the hell out of him. Root for who you will, I doubt you will ever see Manu for what he truly is, and no amount of typing will change that.
I don’t think I’m a hater, but compared to most of his fans who build alters to him and pray 3 times daily…I guess I am.
October 10th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
dagwaller says:
control, “sorry”, “son”, but while you’re right that it doesn’t prove who’s in the top 20, it DOES show that the NBA as an organization (as in, the top level of basketball in the world) thinks that he’s better than all but 5 guards. I’m a huge Gilbert Arenas fan, but you know what? He wasn’t that good last year (when he played). I hate Vince Carter, and you know what? HE wasn’t as good as Manu last year. How many games did Elton Brand play last year? What did Melo do last year outside of scoring a bunch of points?
I can’t believe I’m defending the Spurs, but seriously, there’s some blind hatred going on here.
October 10th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
dagwaller says:
Hahaha, his “fan base” in the NBA front office supports him plenty.
October 10th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
control says:
Ian,
Yeah, hatinonmanu is really the support I need. Last Manu hatefest there was, I believe there were like 4-5 people who were pilling on him.
Like I just posted, believe what you will. Thinking the guy is top 100 in the NBA is no way hating, he’s making more money than I am, and he’s playing at a higher level than I could ever dream…but then so are most of the 12th guys on the bench on any team in the NBA (though, I know I could beat Smush Parker or Antione Walker 1on1 on my worst day).
Looking at the SGs in the league, I could probably give Manu 6-10th, but no way top 5.
Kobe
Wade
Tmac
Pierce
Vince
Can you really dispute those 5? MAYBE Vince, but lazy or not, clutch or not, the guy can ball.
October 10th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
dagwaller says:
Ha, control, I hear you on that Antoine Walker thing.
I don’t know. I like to look at results. COULD Kwame Brown be an all-star? Probably. But he’s not, and he hasn’t been. COULD Dwyane Wade have been a top 5 SG last year? Probably. But he wasn’t. Neither was Vince Carter. Paul Pierce isn’t a shooting guard. So that puts the MVP and a former scoring champ ahead of Manu in the SG pecking order. Not bad.
This year? Looks like Manu’s gonna be injured for the first, what, fifth of the season? Not to mention he’s coming off of a long string of games dating back to whenever he joined the NBA. He’s probably due for a drop.
But currently, he’s the third best shooting guard in the NBA. I don’t like it, but how can you really argue with the All-NBA team and all the titles that he’s won? And when you put up the kind of stats that he does in the time that he does, it’s not really as surprising.
October 10th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
control says:
dagwaller,
All a matter of perception. Breaking down stats, Vince averaged more points, boards, assists, less turnovers and was the focus of the other team’s defense almost the entire year. Funny thing is I kinda just want to knock him out of the top 5.
Guess we will have to see how Manu does when he gets back. At the end of the season there will hopefully be a “Did Manu live up to expectations” thread on Dime. If he improves, then he sure showed me. If he declines, I’m sure I will still be called a hater.
October 10th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
dagwaller says:
control, in 7 less minutes a game, VC averaged less than 2 points more per game. Not impressive. Rebounds and assists, VC had 1.2 and .6 more, respectively. Again, in 7 less minutes a game. Is it unreasonable to think that if Manu played in 7 more minutes of a game, he could get one more FG, one more rebound, and one more assist? I think not. He also averaged the same amount of blocks and MORE steals.
Statistically speaking, I would give the edge to Manu – and that’s not even taking into account the huge win total disparity. Tim Duncan and TP blah blah blah Jason Kidd and Richard Jefferson blah blah blah.
October 10th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
control says:
dagwaller,
I hate trying to defend Vince, but put him beside TP and TD. Guy would be B-A-N-A-N-A-S. If Vince wasn’t the focus of every team’s defense, if he had a big player to play off of…that would be some brutal shit.
Also, like you have said, you are taking into account what HAPPENED, not what COULD have happened. Don’t be breaking your own guidelines now, otherwise Gilbert, for example, would have probably have knocked Manu off the All-NBA Third team.
October 10th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
dagwaller says:
control, if you’re going to quote me, that’s fine. I can see that you’re already buying into my point about Manu being the third best SG in the NBA.
October 10th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Ian says:
dagwaller good point
control u were hating fully when u said manu is a debatable top 15 sg now u say hes 6-10 and your last post suggests that u have him at 3 so keep it up man.
did u really mention numbers to break down players
did u know manu was the second best sg using per (25mns per game minimun so u dont bring up scrubs) like dag mentioned manu did everything vince did playing less minutes and again when u play on a bad team your numbers are better than what u really are.
i can take antoine walker one on one also but thats not really sayin much