The Rip Hamilton problem
Rip Hamilton (photo. NBA)Lest you get thrown off by recent wins over the Lakers and Cavs, the Pistons made it perfectly clear last night that they’re still a work in progress in terms of adjusting to Allen Iverson (and, don’t forget, new coach Michael Curry). The most glaring example of the less-than-seamless transition has been the play of Rip Hamilton.
On the day of the A.I. trade — coincidentally, the same day Hamilton was inked to a three-year, $34 million extension — I said the biggest thing Detroit got out of the deal was greater versatility with their lineups. We saw it against the Celtics on Thursday, when Tayshaun Prince started at point guard, with Iverson at the two. While that combo was effective, and while we should see more of the Rodney Stuckey/Iverson backcourt when Stuckey starts playing well, the downside is that Hamilton becomes stuck in no man’s land. When Iverson is at the two and Hamilton is the de facto three, the off-ball movement and hamster-wheeling traditionally reserved for Rip falls to A.I., which leaves Rip just kind of standing there looking very out of his element; last night he scored a quiet 12 points, he was held to just three against the Celtics two weeks ago, and even in Wednesday’s win over the Cavs, Hamilton wasn’t even on the court when Detroit was playing its best.
Ever since he came to Detroit in ‘02, Hamilton has been the backcourt version of Shawn Marion. He was a 20-ppg scorer with some bad Wizards teams and continued to put up similar numbers with the Pistons, but his accomplishments were always downplayed as being merely a product of the system and of his All-Star teammates, just like Marion has been viewed as a byproduct of Steve Nash and Mike D’Antoni, even though he was putting up the same numbers when he had Stephon Marbury and Frank Johnson to work with. In Rip’s case, people have always doubted if he could really get buckets if he didn’t get to run around 800 screens a night, and so far (like Marion in Miami) he’s making his critics look good. Since the A.I. trade he’s averaging 15.5 points per game on 38 percent (39-for-102) shooting from the floor, lower than his usual numbers, and while Curry has tried different strategies to get Rip unhinged, he has become noticeably less involved in the offense.
Hamilton definitely has a lot of miles on him — he’s knocking on 700 career regular season games, plus 116 playoff games — but he’s only 30 years old and in phenomenal shape; he’s far from washed up. He can still drop 20-25 points on any given night and should be one of the first guys Curry runs a play for when Detroit needs a big shot. But whereas Tayshaun and ‘Sheed were typically seen as the X-factors that could make or break Detroit’s title runs, this time around it looks like Rip will be that wild card. It is, among other things, just another change he’ll have to get used to now.
November 21st, 2008 at 9:14 am
CJ says:
In watching the Pistons games it almost looks like the old pistons are trying to freeze Iverson out at some times. I am not a fan of Tayshaun at the point and think the team is at its best when Iverson (who had some beautiful assits last night) gets to run the show. He’s shown an amazing willingness to settle into a new role and set others up, but the Pistons have yet to show the willingness to accept his greatness.
November 21st, 2008 at 9:15 am
SoulOnIce says:
As nice as Rip City is, the fact remains that once Mr. Big Shot left, he hasn’t been the same.
Hell, I remember once Chauncey didn’t play in a couple of games against Orlando last year (first round of the playoffs), and I thought Rip’s game would go to hell, but he surprised me, by showing he can create his own shot, and find other ways to stay involved in the offense, since he’s never really needed to dominate the ball, in order to be effective. Right now though, this looks like something that may continue to be a problem for a while. I hope he shakes it off, because he’s gonna be a big factor as to whether this trade pays off, and they can win this ring.
November 21st, 2008 at 9:17 am
Mr. K1X says:
is rip a bum without chauncy??
marion without nash, kmart without kidd, and the list goes on.
dont sleep on a pg’s ability to make a regular player look nice
November 21st, 2008 at 9:22 am
bamba says:
dammit, when the pistons won against the lakers and cavs they were legit, now they’re back to square one!
November 21st, 2008 at 9:39 am
MoxWestCoastRep says:
The problem is that beard. Yikes! Dude looks like the Black Lincoln.
November 21st, 2008 at 9:46 am
Sweet English says:
I sense a split in the Dime office. One post your biggin Marbury up like some sort of under-rated all-star who just wants to be able to pay his mortgage, and now your saying that Rip ‘was putting up the same numbers when he had Stephon Marbury and Frank Johnson to work with’ , like Marbury was some sort of D-league long shot.
Come on guys, is Marbury one of the most talented players in the world (as i think CGF would have us all believe if we werent all sane human beings)? or is he a lack luster point guard who couldn’t even supply Kobe Bryant with enough passes to get into double digits?
I know your all different writers with different opinions but a bit of consistancy from a publication makes ish a lot less confusing. Lets have some editorial decision making.
November 21st, 2008 at 9:47 am
karizmatic says:
Yeah they might need to go back to running Rip off the screens and leave the create your own shot stuff to AI. I think the Pistons are just going to be interesting to watch the whole season.
November 21st, 2008 at 9:48 am
Sweet English says:
Oh yeah an i’m with MoxWestCoastRap on that shout, it’s the beard. He’s not playin ball cos A.I is worried that if he makes one bad pass Hamilton will wage Holy Jihad upon he and every other grown man with a braid.
Infidels.
November 21st, 2008 at 9:51 am
Kudabeen says:
CJ:
I see some of the same stuff, but I think they all are playing too tight, when things breakdown instead of making plays. Stuckey is stinking it up and looks as if he is really pressing. Sheed and the bigs need to get in the paint and bang for those boards. Iverson hasn’t really gave critics the pleasure of complaining about his shot selection, but he also doesn’t seem to be fully aware of where his help comes from and the spots everyone is on offense. Him and sheed have a decent chemistry, but that’s it. It’ll take time.
They have to figure out how to not panic and press when they are getting pressured by the better teams. They seem to be waiting for something like, “Isn’t this where Iverson supposed to help us?” or Iverson, “I’m passing, but no one is shooting good shots”…
Boston is just better right now period. Individually Boston’s bench is lame, but as a team they push each other. Tony Allen is the only guy that I can see causing problems. It’s a team sport…
I’m holding out until after All-Star break…
November 21st, 2008 at 9:58 am
Sweet English says:
@ Kudabeen
That’s a nice analysis. But honestly, it’s the beard.
November 21st, 2008 at 10:03 am
dapro says:
I agree with above comments, no not Dime but the bloggers
It’s the beard, he looks like Freeway would look after hanging with Tyrone Biggums
November 21st, 2008 at 10:09 am
Scott says:
@ Sweet English
“and now your saying that Rip ‘was putting up the same numbers when he had Stephon Marbury and Frank Johnson to work with’ , like Marbury was some sort of D-league long shot.”
Maybe re-read the post. They said that Rip without Chauncey is being played by the critics like they did Marion without Nash, when Marion was able to put up similar numbers with a less pass orientated PG in Starbury and in a different system than D’Antoni’s.
Anyways, I think Rip has taken EVERYTHING about the Billups/AI trade WAAAAAAY too personal. Reading the things about him and Chauncey crying in a hotel room, and him believing the biggest mistake of his career was signing the extension just before they shipped Chauncey out.
Why he’s being such a damn baby about it, I don’t know, its still the Pistons, they still have the best GM in the L, in Joe D. And if he would play the way he did without Chauncey in the few games during that Orlando series, he would easily lift the Pistons into that next level.
And why won’t the Pistons have both AI and Rip running the hamster wheel at the same time? Imagine the wings trying to chase those guys all game, and we all know that Rip and AI could run for DAYS.
Its a shame that Rip has decided he’s going to sulk instead of trying to lift his play and helping the Pistons.
November 21st, 2008 at 10:24 am
JoeCozi says:
I knew right when they made that trade that rip was gonna be the one to suffer from playing with A.I…George Karl said everything best about what i’ve always said about A.I. don’t forget Karl coached the glove so he knows how to deal with strong personalities..you just can’t win with A.I….Look at Denver ballin now that they got chauncey 7 8-1 or something but more importantly they actually look like a bball team again with chauncey hitting people in the flow…I think Ive secretly doesn’t like to hit people in the flow so he can somehow have them pass it back to him!!…ahahaha …
November 21st, 2008 at 10:45 am
rodnets says:
That beard is ALIVE
November 21st, 2008 at 11:13 am
alex says:
Even if AI occassionally makes nice dishes, he only does the last pass before the shot. True point guards make the pass that leads to the assist (a hockey assist). AI simply doesn’t have a vision of a PG. He’s been in the league 10+ years, a great talent for sure, but not so much a team player. He’s better suited to be the scorer off the bench, together with less talented players so he doesn’t waste the starter’s time while they stand around when he has the ball.
November 21st, 2008 at 11:35 am
QQ says:
You know, I won;t hate on Rip because he developed his game to thrive in a system. He identified his weaknesses and took advantage of his strengths.
But, reality check here, he’s not a TALENTED player. He can shoot, but do we see highlights of him defending, putting the ball on the floor or making a great pass? And because the facilitator of his system of choice (Billups) is now gone, he’s like a 8th grade kid trying to grasp the rules to play with the big boys. All over again.
November 21st, 2008 at 12:08 pm
youdontknow says:
disagree with QQ. Rip is a very talented player; good ball handler and underrated vision, hes worked extremely hard on his defense and is no longer close to a D liability, and he obviously has a pretty solid offensive arsenal. Remember Rip leading UConn to the NC in 99? or when he used to go off for 40 on a not so inconsistent basis?
Rip has fitted his game to the Pistons system and whether he can adjust after 6 years of playing the same way remains to be seen, but to claim that he isn’t talented is ridiculous.
November 21st, 2008 at 12:15 pm
qUeSt??? says:
i say, trade rip for gerald wallace!
November 21st, 2008 at 12:33 pm
QQ says:
@ post 17:
Nice point.
What I’m trying to say is his talent doesn’t dazzle you like, say, Carter’s jumping ability, Bron’s strength and Kidd’s court vision. Those are natural talent; IMO, Rip doesn’t have those kind of talent level. He certainly can ball, but if we’re talking bout extraordinary talent that dazzles you the first time you see it, he’s lacking in that department.
He’s blessed to be part of a system where his strengths are magnified, but if people are expecting him to carry his team based on his talent alone (on the way I objectively defined it) like Dwyane Wade or some other cat, people will be disappointed.
November 21st, 2008 at 12:45 pm
youdontknow says:
Agreed. He doesn’t have any breathtaking physical skills (unless you count his endurance…sub 4:30 miles), and will always need someone else to help him play effectively.
My only point is that its easy to say now that Rip can’t play outside of the Detroit system of the past 5 or so years, but hes adjusted before. Come playoff time Rip will be on top of his game
November 21st, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Ip says:
alex (post 16) — exactly right. iverson and marbury, etc., either score alone or play a two-man game at max. they don’t play a team game. dead on, man.
November 21st, 2008 at 1:07 pm
QQ says:
I think the Piston’s woes aren’t really on Rip’s shoulders. They’re on AI’s. The whole Piston offense relied on a point guard who can make plays for his teammates. Billups is THAT point guard. He did that for 6 years. Passing the ball, knowing when to take the shot, all the right plays. On the other hand, AI is NOT that point guard; hell, he ain’t a point guard in the first place. That’s why the whole system was fractured and the Pistons is so inconsistent right now.
And before they find that point guard (Stuckey’s shit right now, and Prince’s a nice candidate but still unproven as a playmaker), they will stay where they are: in the middle of the pack, with no identity.
November 21st, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Lady Luck says:
They should’ve brought Lindsay Hunter back to play pg off the bench.
In the meantime, they need to start AI at the point and Rip at the 2, Tayshawn at the 3. Sheed and Maxiell.
OR
Start Stuckey, AI, Rip, Prince, and Sheed at center.
Detroit knew what kind of player Iverson was before he got here. They must have looked at the lineup possibilities before pulling the trigger. I believe with time they will get it together.
November 21st, 2008 at 1:31 pm
jeremy says:
told you so
November 21st, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Obama says to McCain "Hows my @ss taste"? says:
JoeKozi
A.) For the 100th time..Coach Karls comments were taken out of context about Iverson. There has been an entire article about it. Karl has been on record in saying that out of all his players, he had the least problems with Iverson and has nothing but respect for him. Never did he say you can’t win with Iverson. You folks just be putting words in peoples mouths. And people kill me with the continuous “you can’t win with Iverson” garbage…when its been done before as far as his teams competing in the playoffs. I could see if he had never been out the first round and people say something like that.
B.) Denver has played one team with a winning record with Chauncey in the line-up, they have been winning, but they’ve also been winning ugly..so I wouldn’t exactly say “Denver is ballin”. They are a more balanced team with Chauncey..he’s a PG, Iverson is not…he barely even in Denver, so I still don’t understand the comparisons Just like people thought it was okay to compare AI to Andre Miller with the Sixers…the Sixers are barely even decent right now, yet people feel the need to claim they are sooo much better without Iverson. Give me a break. The Nuggets needed a true PG because that team is filled with a bunch of chuckers. They never had one with Iverson, its really that simple. Iverson is better when he is off the wall and running around free like how he is in Detroit. Not trying to control the offense.
Now as far as Rip is concerned…I think out of everyone he was effected the most. Both mentally and physically. I think Rasheed was in shock at first but is now on the “I don’t really give a sh*t waggon”…T-Prince was shocked as well but now is getting used to it. Those two have benefited the most from Iversons trade. Rip on the other hand in my opinion is doing the most. I agree with whoever said he needs to be a professional and get over it. I understand him and Chauncey are friends and he was so used to playing with Chauncy..but he is just starting to act a little too sensitive to me. As a fan, i’ll give him a month to get it all out…but if this continues on then i’m going to start calling him “Steve Francis”, because he is starting to look just as sesitive when it comes to friends being traded.
November 21st, 2008 at 3:52 pm
tim says:
Yeah you guys need to also remember they’ve gotten in like 1 or 2 practices since the trade…so its not like they are getting much time off the court to work on things and that…