Who’s Better: Kevin Martin or Vince Carter?
We argue. You decide…
KEVIN MARTIN (by Andrew Katz)
Efficiency. Right now, it’s the hottest word in an NBA scout’s vernacular. Everyone wants a guy — primarily a guard — who can put points on the board without needing to shoot as much as Vince Carter. And truthfully, Kevin Martin is among the most efficient guards in the League.
K-Mart finished sixth in the L in scoring last season at 23.7 points per game. And he did so taking fewer shots per game than any of the guys in front of him. That includes Amare Stoudemire, who should need fewer shots simply by virtue of being a big man.
Martin excels because he makes use of every possession. That doesn’t mean he always notches a rebound, a steal, a block, or an assist, because oftentimes, he doesn’t. It means that when he takes a shot, he’s getting some value for his team — whether it’s a bucket or a trip to the stripe.
And to give a sense of just how valuable K-Mart is to his team, last month the Kings rattled off three straight wins with him putting up 33, 26, and 27 points, respectively. After he went down with an injury, Sacramento went 2-10 in his absence, and now Reggie Theus‘ job is on the line.
I don’t know that Martin will ever be the marquee name on a championship contender. But he’d be an absolute nightmare on a team that had another legitimate scoring threat simply by virtue of how tough he is to guard. Watch the clip below, between the 50-second and one-minute mark for the moves that he puts on Chris Paul and then Peja. Martin has a bevy of moves (up-fakes, crossovers, etc.) which work on defenders bigger or smaller or stronger than he is.
K-Mart is one of those rare guys that you can confidently say is a “pure scorer,” who also makes those around him better.
VINCE CARTER (by Austin Burton)
If you’re going to argue that Kevin Martin is better than Vince Carter, first I’ve got a trade proposal for you — one irrelevant point of contention in this comparison for another: I’ll give you the fact that Martin plays harder and “has more heart” than Vince, if you give me the fact that Carter’s highlight reel is so far out of K-Mart’s league, it’s not even in the same sport. Even the stuttering lawyer from My Cousin Vinny would immediately object on grounds of being prejudicial if I posted a YouTube clip here of Carter’s best.
That said, I like Kevin Martin. When I first got NBA League Pass in ’06-07, I somehow ended up watching an inordinate amount of Kings games, and towards the end of that season, I saw players who clearly hated playing with each other and had visibly given up. All of them except Martin. When everyone else had thrown in the towel, he was the only guy who seemed to go hard, every night, without fail. I respected him for that, and was glad to see him rewarded with a $55 million deal and handed the keys to the franchise that summer. He’s a good dude, a hell of a ballplayer, and a great scorer.
Vince Carter (photo. Mannion)But better than Vince? That’s insane.
Instead of going into what Vince could be, focus on what he already is. Last season, he was one of only four NBA players to average 20-5-5, along with Kobe, LeBron and T-Mac. This year, when critics assumed he would coast through the entire 82 on auto-pilot for a crappy Nets team, Vince has formed the League’s highest-scoring duo with Devin Harris, dropping 23.3 a night next to Harris’ 24.8 average. Plus, Vince isn’t far off from those five-board, five-assist numbers, currently sitting at 4.3 rebounds and 4.8 dimes per. And with New Jersey playing above-.500, Carter appears headed for his ninth All-Star selection; no questionable fan voting necessary.
In just about every facet of the game, Vince is superior to K-Mart: scorer, defender, playmaker, clutch performer. Consider two weeks ago, that historically cold-blooded one-man annihilation Vince unleashed on the Raptors in Toronto. In a building where he’s more hated than Mike Vick at a PETA fundraiser, Vince posted 39 points, nine boards and six assists (just one turnover), forcing overtime with a last-second three, then getting the game-winner on a backwards dunk. I just don’t see Martin having the fortitude to do something like that in such a beyond-hostile environment, let alone do it consistently.
Even his most passionate haters have to admit Vince is one of the best in the game — it’s part of the reason they hate him so much. Far from perfect, perhaps not what you want in an ideal franchise cornerstone, he’s simply an incredible talent, and simply better than his counterpart in Sacramento.
“Who’s better?” archives
12/4 — Brandon Roy vs. Joe Johnson
12/3 — Dwight Howard vs. Yao Ming
12/2 — Paul Pierce vs. Carmelo Anthony
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December 5th, 2008 at 10:01 am
Toan says:
How deep has VC fallen when we have comparisons like this to discuss…VC is better most of the time, just not every day
December 5th, 2008 at 10:04 am
Toan says:
i remember when HE was the next MJ and considered better than Kobe…makes me feel old
December 5th, 2008 at 10:05 am
QQ says:
Gotta go with Martin. Efficiency is the thing for me. I’d rather see a douche like Chris Quinn do what he does best (shoot threes and pass the ball to Wade) with minimal mistakes than watch Sebastian Telfair do the occasional nasty crossover… then register 12 turnovers by the end of the game.
December 5th, 2008 at 10:10 am
craig990 says:
VC no doubt!
These articles are nice Dime!
Keep em up!
I’d love to see your arguments on KG vs TD
Kobe vs Lebron
Paul vs Williams/Parker/Nash
December 5th, 2008 at 10:14 am
phenom says:
i’m from the t.dot and i hate the dude…but comparing VC to K-Mart2 is just straight up dumb…K-Mart can’t get on VC’s level even though VC gives approx. 50% effort most of the time
December 5th, 2008 at 10:16 am
Max says:
I don’t think anyone questions VC is much more talented than KMart. The fact that a discussion like this can even be taken seriously tells you how well VC has managed his career and his image.
If League Pass has both guys playing in different games, I prefer to watch Martin.
December 5th, 2008 at 10:17 am
Richard Wellner says:
Martin.
I have lost all sympathy and patience for Vince. He’s worse than Tracy McGrady.
December 5th, 2008 at 10:23 am
Mark says:
Vince hasnt won a title but he has led a couple of squads deep into the playoffs……Martin hasnt sniffed the playoffs. These two are at opposite ends of their careers so its tough to compare, i would of taken Vince back then tho and id still take him now, his all-round game is better, the numbers back that up…..07/08 stats
Vince – 21ppg 6rpg 5apg 1.5spg
K Mart II – 23ppg 4rpg 2apg 1spg
December 5th, 2008 at 10:25 am
justice(knicks fan) says:
not even close vince by far
December 5th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Big Sia says:
VC NOT EVEN CLOSE
December 5th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Big Sia says:
DIME = SOFT FOR EVEN ASKING!
December 5th, 2008 at 10:33 am
JA says:
Typically in any Vince versus anyone comparison, you can play the ‘VC is more injury prone’ card to try to sway the argument. But K-Mart is looking like he’ll be even more prone than Vince over the course of his career.
I live in Toronto, and I hate the D-Bag, but I still have to give this one to VD.
December 5th, 2008 at 10:37 am
Kobeef says:
I actually like Vince at this stage of his career. It’s as if – for the first time in his life – he has admitted that he needs to sacrifice personal gain for the interests of the team if he wants to win.
Vince is an elite playmaker, ballhandler and shooter. When he focuses on using all of his skills (which he is for a change) he is a great asset to his team.
K-Mart can score but in an ironic twist he is almost like a young VC (without the hops) – scoring and not much else.
December 5th, 2008 at 10:43 am
hadoken says:
VC all day. People who pick K-Mart are prob the same, delirious ones who think that steph should give some money back to the BS franchise he’s currently employed by.
December 5th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Michorizo says:
K-Mart is better at trying. Vince is better at acting like he’s trying.
December 5th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Big Sia says:
Michorizo = Weiss fan
December 5th, 2008 at 10:58 am
Kermit the Washington says:
Do some retro ones!! Ewing vs Olajuwon! Pippen vs Barkley!
And how bout current vs retro? Chris Paul vs Stockton! DWade vs Penny!
……..Kobe vs Jordan? OKOKOK I’ll leave that one alone lol
December 5th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Diego says:
Is this another sarcastic headline?
Vince no doubt is better.
December 5th, 2008 at 11:01 am
QQ says:
@ post 14:
No, people who picked Martin are the people who are sick of a walking waste of talent who is as soft as a melting pudding.
December 5th, 2008 at 11:04 am
loganlight says:
Who’s better? Hard to say… but if I’m building a team, I’m going to take Kevin Martin 100% of the time over VC if for no other reason that his efficiency would allow me to have another star on the team. He doesn’t need the touches that Vince needs because he converts the ones that he does have.
K-Mart2 for me.
LL
December 5th, 2008 at 11:05 am
Ross says:
Carter
December 5th, 2008 at 11:11 am
vinny says:
Carter
December 5th, 2008 at 11:11 am
Dagomar says:
I’m a Raptors fan; don’t like Vince. And Vince doesn’t have the athleticism he used to. And he shoots too many fadeaways, never played good defense, is overrated in the clutch . . . .
But STILL, without doubt, a top-10 talent in the league. Not a top-10 player, but the talent is still sky-high. It’s Vince on this one.
December 5th, 2008 at 11:12 am
justice(knicks fan) says:
just look at their pictures..now who would u go with
December 5th, 2008 at 11:45 am
YOUNGFED says:
Martin
December 5th, 2008 at 11:53 am
rell says:
I have to go with Vince.
For my own amusement I think dime need to do a article on
1. Who is the better GM: Kevin Mchale or Chris Wallace?
2. Who was the better draft pick: Darko or Kwame?
December 5th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Big Sia says:
The real question is VC or Wade.
December 5th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
dapro says:
I’ll go with Vince by virtue of his past but neither player is a player I think you can build around
December 5th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
control says:
VC, as much as I hate how he left Toronto…the guy is a beast. WHEN he steps up, he can be top 3-5 player in the game…and since his effort level is hovering around 80% this and last year, he’s an easy top 10-12 player in the league. KMart is aight, but the kid has to prove some shit consistently for a few years to build a resume before you can compare him to Vince.
December 5th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Mr. K1X says:
vince no question.
for those who think he has “fallen off”, u r wrong. he is extending his career by not flyin all over the place all game and jumping into the stands.
how many other athletic player of his age group can still get up like him?? none
December 5th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
ctkennedy says:
vince still scares the hell out of u when he hoopin
its vince and its not even close
December 5th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
DJ Go Go Gomez says:
When Dime makes there comparisons, the way I decide is “who would I pick to play 1 game today”. It would be Martin and here’s why:
1) I know i’m going to get MAXIMUM effort from Martin. Vince seems to only like to play his hardest against his old team Toronto. I’ve seen Martin play alot and he ALWAYS plays hard.
2) Martin is one of those RARE players that can get 30 points on 12 shots. And you usually don’t realize it until after the game. Vice has always been an iso player. That’s easier for defenses to prepare for. Granted, Vince is talented enough to beat just about anyone one defender off the dribble but you have to make the effort to get him the ball. Martin just always seems to be in the right place to score with minimum effort which tells me his basketball I.Q. is higher.
I will admit V.C. is more athletic, taller, and overall more talented. But the most talented isn’t always “the best” player.
December 5th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
VC fan in TO says:
I cannot believe this is even an argument. It’s VC and its not even close.
Yes Kevin Martin is an efficient scorer but that’s where it stops. He’s a guy who has never averaged more than 3 assists in a season and doesn’t do much else but score. He has never been the best player on a team that had a better than .500 record. And Vince had as much to do with Mikki Moore getting a big contract as Jason Kidd did if you watched Nets games a few years back. And finally we are seeing Vince take on the challenge of guarding the opposing teams best player such as Bosh and Kobe. He’s still a star in this league.
December 5th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
jeremy says:
vc all day
December 5th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
northern lights says:
“…Historically cold-blooded one man annhilation…”
That about sums it up as good as any description i’ve heard… thanks for making me relive that awful game with 6 words…
Its VC by far. When he wants he is top five talent in the league on sheer god-given ability… crazy baller
December 5th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Ian says:
vince all day
December 5th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Eduardo says:
Are you serious?
Vinsanity all day every day man..Basketball is one of my passions and Vince is the kind of guy who makes me love this game, Kevin Martin is good too, but he isn’t half the “basketballer” Vince is..
December 5th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
Drink the Haterade (KB24 Chip 09) says:
@ craig990 says:
You say Kobe and Lebron comparison, you can’t compare the two, they are two totally different players.
I say they compare PP and LBJ
Then they should do a Kobe and T-Mac comparison
December 5th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
doc says:
VC tell Mr efficient to win 40 games.
December 5th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
lmao says:
Dumbest comparison i have ever witnessed. Vince Carter is a way better player than Kevin Martin. Please do not compare an 8 time all-star to a 0 time all-star. You need help.
December 6th, 2008 at 1:53 am
This Guy says:
Toan – It’s funny you mention Vince vs. Kobe for the Jordan throne. I remember being in Toronto early in Vince’s career, well before we decide he was a complete douchebag. There were trade rumours for a straight up trade of VC for Kobe (this was during the usual Shaq and Kobe not fitting together issues). Everyone in Toronto was so angry that the trade had even been proposed. As if Kobe couldn’t even hold VC’s jock.
I don’t know if that trade ever existed, but in retrospect I wish I could get in a timemachine, and yell to Glen Grunwald, “Make the F’ing Trade”. No VC and his million “injuries”, no “dunking is overrated”, no horrible trade, and no return just to burn us with dagger after dagger.
Would have also meant Kobe would have never dropped that 81 on us. Some people dream about going back in time to kill hitler or something. I dream of going back in time to trade Vince sooner.
December 6th, 2008 at 5:38 am
tealish says:
What’s this jab about efficiency? Check out VC’s shooting%. Looks fine to me.
December 6th, 2008 at 5:40 am
tealish says:
@This Guy: Yup, 11 million lives and Vince Carter trade value. Comparable things.
December 7th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Johnny says:
In terms of being efficient, Martin is better. Martin is a better shooter also. Vince is more athletic and stronger. But Vince never played to his potential and thats on him. So I would take Kmart over VC.
December 8th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
K.i.n.G. says:
@ this guy
Vince might’ve won multiple championships with that team and then u’d be on some random forum saying that we should’ve went back in time and kept vince. I’m from toronto and im glad we kept vince, the shit he fuckin did on the court was SIMPLY insanity
December 12th, 2008 at 9:25 am
VC15 says:
VC is one of the best players in the league when he tries. His potential at 31 is HUGE and to all the VC haters fuck you lol. K-mart is decent but nowhere close to vinces league. His shot selection is a lot better than two years ago, and even though Devin Harris is getting the spotlight, it’s Vince doing most of the work.
You guys remember when Vince put his nuts in guys face @ the olympics?1!?!?!?
December 12th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Willis says:
I take Kevin now over VC now. Vinsanity’s history however can not be compared to. That part is unfair.
Oh btw Kmart has made the playoffs 2 of his 4 seasons, so as far as not ‘sniffing’ the playoffs, that just isn’t true.
Another reason I take Kevin over Vince in the here and now is because if you give Kevin a PG like Harris, he averages 30 a game. End of discussion.
March 17th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
Marty says:
K-Mart
Kevin Martin knows how lucky he is to be playing in the NBA and truly works hard to earn his spot in the league. Hopefully he gets some help some time soon…
August 30th, 2009 at 8:38 am
Jeremy says:
K-Mart if he can stay out there for a whole season but cant seem to