NBA / Dec 17, 2008 / 12:28 pm

Who’s Better: Manu Ginobili or Tracy McGrady?

We argue. You decide…

MANU GINOBILI (by Andrew Katz)
Manu’s game is an exercise in frustration. Judging his game on appearance, he doesn’t look like the guy who should be able to tack on 25 points in 30 minutes. And beyond that, he definitely doesn’t look like someone who would make an entire team look bad while doing so. But Ginobili has shown over and over again that looks can be deceiving.

Ginobili has built one of the most effective offensive arsenals in the League today by using a broader array of moves than anyone else. More than Kobe, Pierce, or anyone playing the game, Manu could easily use 10-15 different moves to beat his man within a 48-minute stretch.

SpursSI.com

And playing on a team stacked with talent, it’s got to be blood-boiling to have to step out on Manu and get beaten on his behind-the-back dribble one possession after he hit a step-back jumper from 22.

He’s a really cerebral player who toys with defenders in the same way that Better Basketball videos teach. First time down, he’ll dribble hard right and get past his defender. On trip number two, he’ll add a second step to that hard dribble by pushing off backwards for a fadeaway. And then on his next touch, he’ll hard dribble right, push back, and then up-fake to draw a foul.

He builds moves over the course of a game. And that obviously means that Manu’s best, toughest-to-guard combinations come in the fourth quarter. While it’s standard practice to see T-Mac fading away from 23, hoping that he’s locked-in enough to sink an impossible shot, Manu’s going to get a high percentage look when it matters most.

That translates into wins and losses, but not just in the regular season. Manu’s frustrating late-game antics — on both sides of the ball — are a key part in San Antone’s perennial place deep in the playoffs. Though McGrady shouldn’t shoulder all of the responsibility for his team’s playoff failings, he can’t be completely absolved of blame, either. Over the course of his career, he’s taken almost one full three-pointer more per game in the playoffs than he has during the regular season. And he’s actually made fewer (31.8% 3FG) in the postseason than over the first 82 (33.9% 3FG).

On the other hand, Ginobili has taken about half a trey more per night in the playoffs over his career, while making exactly the same rate (38% 3FG) in the postseason that he has done over the regular season.

Even if Manu is a flopper, he gets the job done. And he does it when it counts.

TRACY MCGRADY (by Austin Burton)
My standard philosophy is that, in cases where the talent level is essentially even, one man’s credentials as a winner should tip the scales in his favor. That’s why I’m probably the only person I know who would take Tony Parker over Deron Williams; since the talent is about equal, TP’s three championships, one Finals MVP and two All-Star nods give him the edge over Deron’s collective doughnut in those particular categories.

So you would think that in this case, Manu versus T-Mac, I’d go with the other three-time champion in San Antonio’s backcourt. After all, T-Mac hasn’t even been past the first round of the playoffs — not even close enough to a ‘chip to shoot one of those dramatic “posing with the trophy” ABC commercials. And while that’s not all his fault, it’s not not his fault.

Tracy McGradyT-Mac (photo. Marc Morrison)

Here’s the thing, though: T-Mac is significantly more talented than Manu, to the point where his postseason failures don’t matter when determining who is the better player in this instance.

I have said and will continue to say that, when healthy, McGrady is right up there with Kobe and D-Wade in the NBA two-guard hierarchy. As a scorer, he can go off for 30 points on a whim, against any defense, slicing opponents from anywhere within 25 feet of the rim. And among two-guards and wings, there may not be a better ball-handler or passer in the League. Guys like Wade and Kobe can be amazing passers when they want to be, but what separates T-Mac is that he doesn’t have to “want to.” He’s a natural playmaker, more in the LeBron mold. But that doesn’t mean McGrady is passive at all in crunch time. McGrady knows his role on the team, he knows that the game’s decisive possessions will be in his hands, and he has enough game-winners and clutch buckets under his belt to know when to go into Takeover mode.

Age and injuries have obviously affected T-Mac’s performance, especially this season as he’s averaging just 16.3 points, 4.5 rebounds and 4.3 assists; statistical low-points in the post-Toronto portion of his career. He’s only 29 years old, but as the Clippers announcers pointed out during Houston’s loss in L.A. over the weekend, Mac’s 700-something career games seems more like 1,000-plus. His biggest problem is that he simply cannot control injuries, just like Gale Sayers couldn’t, just like Grant Hill couldn’t, just like Ken Griffey Jr. couldn’t.

When his body is cooperating, however, you can count the number of players in the NBA who are flat-out better than Tracy McGrady on one hand. And as it stands, Manu Ginobili doesn’t crack that five-finger roll call.

Who do you think is better?

“Who’s better?” archives
12/12 — Amare Stoudemire vs. Al Jefferson
12/10 — Dirk Nowitzki vs. Chris Bosh
12/9 — Derrick Rose vs. O.J. Mayo
12/8 — Rasheed Wallace vs. Elton Brand
12/5 — Kevin Martin vs. Vince Carter
12/4 — Brandon Roy vs. Joe Johnson
12/3 — Dwight Howard vs. Yao Ming
12/2 — Paul Pierce vs. Carmelo Anthony

Related Posts with Thumbnails
  • Prof. TX

    I was about to write that McGrady is a little better, but then Manu threw himself to the ground and started crying about it, so now I have to say that it shouldn’t even be close.

    And really, put McGrady with Parker and Duncan and he’d have at least that many rings too.

  • Ian

    prof tx
    u put him with parker and duncan and tmac will still miss 50 games
    so no they would not have the same rings

    manu is better by far

    u guys are comparing a guy that has won EVERYWHERE to a guy that cant win a playoffs series
    but i know people hate manu here so the voting wont even be close

  • s.bucketz
  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    As much as i love TMac and his game when healthy. I’ve been and will continue to be in awe of Ginobili. The man is downright an intelligent baller. And as Andrew said, has such an arsenal to display that it’s almost impossible to stop him when it matters.

    Manu’s footwork. His speed (albeit a little slower these days). But most importantly, his sense of balance and poise when shooting is obscene. It could literally be the ugliest, most dangerous shot you’ve seen, but yet still have a big chance of going in just because it’s leaving Manu’s hands.

    You can’t deny the fact that he knows how to win. And Manu will probably go down as the, if not, one of the best foreign ballers ever. He’s a Hall of Famer in my eyes.

    Plus he’s a lefty. And us lefty’s gotta stick together. And I will never penalize a player for being a “flopper”. It’s not Manu’s fault that he gets away with it….blame the refs for letting him. But yet once again, Manu sells it so well…that it should be yet another credit to his Basketball IQ.

  • McGrinobily

    TMac has way more talent. Talent a good player equals does not!

  • http://sportsnet.cc Kante

    For sure TMac. If he gets hot no one can stop him…

  • Ian

    prof are we really gonna play the what if game instead of reality cuz we can do that with every player.
    but pierce in LA with shaq instead of kobe. put drexler with pip and rodman instead of jordan. put stockton with worthy and jabbar instead of magic. put wilt with the celts instead of russell. my man u win in the situation u r in

    in fact stay with the spurs trio u can say about the same with anyone of the three
    ive heard duncan haters say yeah he wins cuz he has parker and manu (not realizing he won before them).
    parker haters say he wins cuz he has duncan and manu (not realizing hes been the starting pg of a championship team since age 9 i think and has beaten kidd payton paul deron nash and billups in the playoffs).
    manu haters well u said it plays with duncan and parker (but not realizing he is the go to guy in the clutch and prob their best scorer).

    no prob with u picking tmac of course but do it with stats or something that has really happened not with “what if”. a few years ago tmac was the choice but not now

  • Yoooo

    Manu has more moves than Kobe & Pierce? Eazy Vato

  • Drink the Haterade (KB24 Chip 09)

    I m a hater! I think cause back in the day the media would compare T-Mac and Kobe, it’s so one sided, it’s an insult to KB24, T-Mac couldn’t hold his jock strap. I can’t stand T-Mac, I think he is good offensively when he’s healthy but that’s almost never! and the fact that he doesn’t have that, you know desire to be any better, kinda a lack of effort, the guy couldn’t guard a trash bag.

    I say give me Ginobili

  • Odi

    give me manu
    tmac has more talent but manu is the better player.

    @post 7 you made some good points there

  • Bron42 AkA Your Moms Best Friend

    what has manu won on his own? has he even gotten a scoring title? no, cuz hes never had to…when duncan and parker were down manu didn’t suddenly elevate the spurs. Manu is the shawn marion/wes welker of the spurs. While hes a good player, the majority of his game is based on someone better than him drawing defenses. And manu isn’t too injury proof himself.

    We have said it before and we’ll say it again, manu has never been the star on his winning teams. Hes always been a cog. People were like “oh duncan is sooo much better than KG” meanwhile as we learned now, put KG on a team with a supporting cast like duncan has and he immediatly wins a ring. Same thing with tmac. Look at his playoff teams? in orlando did he even have another allstar on his team? and in houston? yao, who never stays healthy himself and doesn’t take over games and who himself hasn’t gotten out of the first round even before tmac came and he had all star steve francis (IN HIS PRIME). Why do u think tmac has so many injuries? his back is killin him from carryin team after team.I’m not sayin he would have as many rings as manu automatically but as KG proved, havin guys around you who can play makes a biggg difference. The only thing manu has on tmac is rings(tmac has way better career solo stats) and he sure as hell didn’t get those himself

  • Yoooo

    And also Ginobili has played with 2 HOF’s his whole career and other viable weapons who were All Stars and Robert Horry… I mean I aint a McGrady fan but honestly… for the most part his teams have been either not that great or decimated by injuries (either his or his teammates) I think if you switch Manu’s Journey with TMac’s there is NO WAY Ginbobili carries a franchise (especially not to within a game of beating Detroit in the playoffs)… But I guarantee the Spurs win the same amount of, if not more than, championships.

  • Ian

    austin
    i hate kobe and wade but no tmac is nowhere near them when healthy thats the same bs with sheed that he can be the best pf if he wanted to. its not happening

    btw i rather have parker also

  • SWAT

    TMAC all day…as GGE would say HOUSTON UP!
    Look i hv one game to point out in favor of MAC. dec 2004-13pts in 30 secs, including a steal and a four point play. Manu on his best day could not do that…and even if he could no one fears that he can go off like that.

  • jayslay

    when tmac is healthy theres no question hes better than manu….dont talk about ring cuz this is a team sport…and in the playofs tmac does raise his game and stats but he cant do everything…..having said that,, manu isnt a that durable..but he has tim duncan who jus happens to be the best PF this league has seen…..and tony parker who is as good as any point gaurd out there… but tmac usually is by himself and its never him and yao together in the playoffs you cant say manu is better than a guy cuz he’s always injured…look at the production when he is in there

  • SWAT

    correction *as GEE would say*

  • Ric Hardwood

    T-Mac’s ego is his handicap… Manu > T-Mac

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    Here’s a few things he’s won on his own….since your into the whole, what individual awards has he won.

    Euroleague Finals Most Valuable Player: 2001
    FIBA Americas Championship Most Valuable Player: 2001
    Italian Cup Most Valuable Player: 2002
    Summer Olympic Games Most Valuable Player: 2004

    So to say that he’s never been a star on a winning team is hilarious. This is an Allstar that has also won the best sixth man award. Someone that chose to be a roleplayer and win championships. I’m sure a number of teams would have used him as the cornerstone.

    And just for shits and giggles….here’s Manu’s title resume.

    * Italian League Championship: 2001
    * Italian Cup: 2001, 2002
    * Euroleague: 2001
    * Americas Championship: 2001
    * NBA Championship: 2003, 2005, 2007
    * Summer Olympic Games gold medal: 2004
    * Summer Olympic Games bronze medal: 2008

    C’mon now. Anyteam in the NBA would kill to have a player like Manu on their squad.

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    In 22 career games vs. the Lakers, McGrady averages 20.3 points, 5.2 rebounds and 5.1 assists. That includes five games of 30-plus points. I think that qualifies as a little better than not being able to hold Kobe’s jock…

  • Ian

    what youngfed
    are u serious wasnt manu the best player on his euro team ?
    wasnt manu the best player on the 2004 argentine team that won gold?

    isnt it easier to put up better stats on bad teams (tmac)

    and anyways they put up around the same numbers the past 3 seasons with manu playin fewer mns.

    stop living in the past people.

    youngfed another thing r u sayin that kg is duncans equal??? cuz pierce carried his ass. didnt duncan have a ring before manu and parker came along? does timmy choke like kg??? kg won because he played atlanta cleveland and an overrated pistons team.
    whoever came out of the west would be beatean up.

    but of course this is only my opinion

    ITS EASIER TO GET GOOD NUMBERS ON BAD TEAMS PEOPLE AND FORGET ABOUT HAD TO CARRY A TEAM YES HE HAD TO BUT HE DIDNT.

  • oszi

    “Bron42 AkA Your Moms Best Friend says:

    what has manu won on his own?”

    Olympic Gold??? Isn’t that enough for you???

  • Celts Fan

    Right now, it’s Manu, but remember, Manu’s never been THE GUY (except in the Olympics, whereh he got a gold medal,) TMac’s been playing that role his whole post-Toronto career, so it’s not the same. When healthy and in their primes, you take TMac all day, unfortunately, TMac’s past his prime and not consistently healthy.

  • Bron42 AkA Your Moms Best Friend

    fallin up, euro stats dont amount to shit in the nba…ask darko, gasol, and anthony parker…so save that resume for a greek team.

  • Ian

    fallinup
    people here dont understand all that
    tmac will never do the bench thing like manu did or sacrifice his mns and still he puts up the same kind production.
    heres the thing i never liked here people judge all players differently we all know that puttin up superstar numbers in bad teams is easier and the goal is to get the rings but since we are judging a player americans dont like vs tmac it all changes

    austin
    u picked tmac numbers vs one team
    arent those numbers around what manu does vs everyone??

    swat
    that was once and u say that tmac could go off anytime and do that again pleaseee
    how many players had done that???
    that was once during the regular season cuz we all know that during the playoffs that aint happening.

  • Ian

    youngfed bro u r missing the picture
    like someone said isnt olympic gold carryin a team that wasnt the best one out there enough its bigger than any nba championship. and i know who was the real mvp in 05 vs your pistons?

  • Kobeef

    You need to take each player at his best when you compare head to head. Obviously an injured T_mac is not as good as half the players in the NBA. We are talking about healthy T-Mac.

    T-Mac in his prime was one of the best outside shooters in the NBA, a great passer and a monster slasher. He would destroy Manuflops…who is a good role player who got lucky.

  • SWAT

    @ ian the lake show blew past their comp in the western playoffs last year. boston had to fight to win and still pulled it out in the end…playing almost double the games that kobe and co did.
    and i really hope im mis-reading your blog…do you consider the rox a bad team? If you do man you smoking something major. we are consistenly in the upper class of the west, and when our guys are healthy we win. thths bottom line. now do we usually have all of our guys healthy no…but as a devoted fan i wait for tht day.

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    @Ian — That was just a response to whoever said T-Mac couldn’t hold Kobe’s jock.

  • Bron42 AkA Your Moms Best Friend

    oszi says:

    “Bron42 AkA Your Moms Best Friend says:

    what has manu won on his own?”

    Olympic Gold??? Isn’t that enough for you???..

    umm did he win that on his own? and tmac has been on team usa. and umm in that case anyone on team redeem is instantly better than manu since thier gold is more recent.

    Ian, do you even play ball? puttin up good numbers on a bad team isn’t really taht easy. when ur the ONLY person a team has to guard and they make schemes just to stop you? and when has tmac been on a team where he needed to be a 6th man? so how can u say he wouldnt do it.

    and yes timmy won a ring before manu and parker but didn’t he have another hall of famer in a guy named david robinson and a ALREADY PLAYOFF BOUND TEAM? so lets not make it like duncan was carryin the bobcats.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    Bron42…looks like those stats mean a little something in the NBA. Because the team that was at the forefront of the Europeon movement has one the championship 4 years out of the last decade.

    Oh no wait…it was ALL duncan. Yeah. Shovel another.

  • http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fc/even/rank/rankMen.asp rodnets

    Agree with fallinup and Ian. Tmac is a wannabe and would always be a promise to be a good player if he stays healthy, thing that will never happen.

    Manu is far better player than T-Mac, flopping is a weapon, but he goes beyond that. He isn’t selfish and has been the key in each team he was part of, shared or alone.

    T-mac was a better dunker than Manu, thats all.

    Peace

  • Bron42 AkA Your Moms Best Friend

    and to say paul pierce carried teh celts is kinda dumb when KG arriving changed the whole personality of the team. Even pierce suddenly got good at defense just cuz kg is a beast

  • dapro

    I’m a big fan of Manu’s game minus the Oscar worthy acting but T-Mac when healthy is one the best players in the league

    When playing in Orlando the argument as to who was better T-mac or Kobe could go on and on

    He is with one of the most naturally gifted atheltes in the League. The game came so easy to him as evidence by his early play in his career

  • Gdog

    Ginobli. Such a compeittor. He wills his team to win

  • Bron42 AkA Your Moms Best Friend

    fallin up, is tony parker a top 10 pg all time? is manu a top 10 shooting guard all time? no and no…Manu’s international resume means shit cuz theres guys with better international resumes (yao) and don’t win shit. just like amazing college players who don’t amount to shit. Manu is great but a in his prime tmac would lace manu..like i said, manu has never everrrrr had to carry a team for a whole season. everrr.

    rodnets, a wanna be? tmacs been a allstar the majority of his career, been a top 15 player most of his career and even at 50% still carries his teams. so wheres the wanna be status? when has tmac been selfish? and flopping is a weapon now? come on lol

  • SWAT

    we are not talkin chips people…its if this dude was in his prime vs this dude in his prime…and yall gotta be kidding me if you think manu could hold tmac. LOL not with tht wack ass behind the back move!

  • Big pink pig

    tmac is more tallented but Manu have more desire

  • Tip

    LoL… comparing a role player who comes off the bench with nothing to lose each game (Manu) to a mvp caliber player that has literally put his team on his back his entire career (TMAC).

    C’MON MAN!!!!

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    For those who write off T-Mac’s Orlando numbers by saying, “It’s easy to put up numbers on a bad team,” consider this:

    Going back 21 years, only TWO of the NBA’s leading scorers (by season) played on sub-.500 teams: T-Mac in ’04, and Jordan in ’87. Year after year, the NBA’s top scorer has often played for one of the best teams in the League.

  • Ian

    youngfed
    u pull the “do u even play ball” to ask me that bs???
    yes youngfed is easier to put up superstar stats on bad teams and its not even debatable. the other team stops its geared at stopping you but trust me good offensive players arent going to get stopped. u can get 30 pts with 30 shots no matter whos playin d on u and u know that.

    listen who much u r hatin right now
    first u ask when has manu won being the man?
    we answer olympic gold
    and u have the balls to come back with “he didnt win that alone” DIDNT U ASK IF HE EVER WAS THE BEST PLAYER ON A TEAM THAT WON??????? tell me who was the best player on that team… nocioni or maybe delfino???

    young
    kg iverson tmac and sheed are the most overrated players in the league by far so lets not talk about kg

    swat i meant the competition to the finals

  • Ian

    bron
    are u making shit up???? do u know about international ball???? everything counts to get in the hof. yao a better international resume????

    how many players have won euro gold and nba in the history of the sport??? ONE and it aint yao

    i know u gotta support your american players but the biggest loser in basketball to win of the biggest winners no.

    austin sorry i didnt know good stats meant scoring leader.
    u know i meant players avg 20 plus pts that u put in a decent team and become crap (hughes davis and crap like that)

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    Ya know…Ron Mercer carried the bulls a while back. So I guess he’s HOF as well. If carrying a shitty team is an actual reason then we could easily count Durant as better than TMac cause OKC sucks worse than Orlando ever had. I thought when TMac went to Houston, the reason why was so he wouldn’t have to with Yao in the paint…how well has that been…and now he’s carrying a team with Yao and Artest, right? Make sense much.

    Why is it that you arn’t counting Manu’s many many awards in the international game?…I’d think the Olympics would be quite a feat considering the USA runs in those competitions as well.

    Maybe if Manu was straight outta Brooklyn he’d get more love. But it’s cool…because he’s foreign, he’s not the same.

    I’ll take the team player, that knows his role to win games over the stats leader any day. In the end, it’s a team sport. And Manu’s resume is Quadruple that of TMac’s.

  • yoda

    t-mac is more athletic, but i don’t think he’s more talented then manu. manu found a way to be effective in league where strenght and speed is almost everything. not that manu is slow or weak, but he can’t be compared phisicly with t-mac or kobe or who ever play on his position, but he gets job done. kind like stockton did it. @bron 42? are you nuts? check what fallinup wrote, and then please edit your post.

  • joros

    You have to be kidding me…. yao with a better international resume than manu? jaja i think u need to do some research bron42….

    Now onto the diferences… Manu is a winner, he does what ur team needs to win, if that is coming from the bench, he does it, if its nailing the 3 point dagger, he does it, if its getting to the free throw line, he does it.

    Check up his clutch scoring stats (last 2 mins of a game), only kobe and lebron mean more to his team that manu in that stance.

    Even more, manu is tough… t-mac recently sat down for a couple of weeks cuz he felt pain in his knee. He went to several doctors and they all agreed that pklaying wasnt going to affect his knee… nevertheless he chose NOT TO PLAY.
    On the other hand, manu sprained his ankle so bad in last years playoffs that he neede surgery to reapair it, but he didnt complain, he didnt say he was in pain, he just kept plaing through it even while the press was offering him a way out of his problems, all he had to do was to say “yes im playing badly cuz my ankle is hurt”, but he didnt. Want to guess what tmac would have done had he beiing as hurt?

    This is no debate, tmac might be the more raw talented guyu, but manu is by far the better player.

    Joros

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    FIBA is a whole different ballgame; if we’re gonna start using international games as evidence, we’re gonna have to say Carlos Arroyo is one of the best PG’s in the world.

  • Ian

    ellis , jackson , martin
    so according to young and austin these guys are really superstar hiding in bad teams they could easily be the best in good teams

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    Well, Austin. Folks are throwing out TMac’s one…ONE scoring title as a reason why he’s better. So it’s fair game.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    excuse me, two.

  • Ian

    austin
    actually u might have to
    the nba is not the world u know

  • Ian

    fallin nice post
    and u r right the love manu would get if he were from ny or something.

    fallin u need to help me out with a question the tmac lovers cant answer they say he carries bad teams but carried where???? one thing is to play for a bad team (tmac) and another is to carry a bad one (bron).

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    Two scoring titles mean you were a dominant player in the NBA for at least two whole seasons. (And don’t act like T-Mac doesn’t average 23-25 points every other year, too.)

    That holds more weight with me than a few summer tournaments where the majority of the players involved are not NBA material.

  • http://www.alltexasforums.com rangerjohn

    gonna agree with IAN and FALLINUP manu hands down. i hear so many “what ifs” in regards to tracy, you dont hear those about manu, with manu it is more “when manu did …..” with tracy it is “IF he gets hot nobody can stop him” or “if tracy where playing on” or “on every 3rd sunday after a full moon against the grizz wehn they are missing rudy gay and the mascot, one day before a holiday when yao is there to back him up” kinda crap. this is the stuff that tracy is made of, potential out the ass, skills to no end, heart of a dikdik (lok it up) back of an 80 yr old, shoulder of a 70 yr old, ankles of a 90 yr old, and still the only ring he has is from his high school graduation.

  • MadSammyboy

    Gino has the winner’s legacy, and as others have said, he’s an extremely intelligent player… he just ‘gets’ basketball in a way few others do.

    TMac is highly talented, but his seeming lack of passion, inability to ‘will’ himself healthy (no, it’s not crazy), and tendency to give away important games makes him, for all his special potential, a loser.

    Guess what? A guy that’s been a loser for ten seasons isn’t suddenly going to stop being one. TMac will never win anything. Gino’s the guy.

  • Ian

    austin that was back then
    we are talking whos better now

    i guess i have to pick shaq over howard cuz he was mvp 8 years ago then

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    @Ian — In eight seasons (post-Toronto), McGrady has made six playoff appearances. Yes, he’s lost in the first round, but it’s not like he’s a Lottery regular. So comparing him to other good-player-bad-team guys like Ron Mercer and Kevin Durant at this point is just silly.

  • Ian

    ranger i know everything is what if here

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    @Ian — And Manu’s gold medal was four years ago. What’s your point? McGrady just put up a triple-double last night. So don’t act like I’m only relying on old evidence.

  • doug

    Manu is better. Manu is tougher and gets after harder than TMAC. He’s a better all around player than MAC.If T-Mac would stop mailing it in because of headaches and stomach flu I’d actually respect this cat but he’s not tough enough. I really feel sorry for Houston Fans this cat will miss a game over anything. Manu never came into a situation having to be the man like TMAC did, he’s always played along side Tim Duncan so we don’t know how
    he would respond to the pressure of being the man but then again I don’t think TMAC has ever lived up to the role of being the man on his team. You can count this guys playoff victories on one hand.

  • Bron42 AkA Your Moms Best Friend

    u guys bitch wayyy to fast to keep up with eachothers comments…

    Ian, yes international counts BUT it doesn’t mean much to ur NBA resume. take zabonis…great international player, but in the nba is he gonna be remembered for that? thats all I was sayin..anthony parker, killed overseas but in the NBA is a average player. All I was saying is a great international resume doesn’t mean shit that ur a great nba player. And trust me, me takin tmac over manu has nothing to do with him being american, so u need to quit talkin out ur ass with that shit. Could just be u stickin up for another euro guy just as quick.

    fallin up, bein the best player on a shit ass team and carryin a crappy team are completely different so use ur brain. Does durants team even have a winning record? will they make the playoffs? no, hence the difference. Tmac, while he hasn’t won in the playoffs, hes taken bad teams to them. which is much harder than riding coat tails on great teams.

    jaros, I didn’t mean better overall, but internationally yao is a bigger deal than manu and he hasn’t dont shit in the nba. and um didn’t manu miss games cuz that same ankle? didn’t manus bum ankle that he should of sat out on cost the spurs last playoff? Manu hasn’t go through the shit tmac has to get anywhere. manus been on well rounded teams. you can’t blame tmac for that just like u cant blame manu for being on well managed teams. Was jordan any less of the shit when the bulls weren’t winnin rings right away? no, he just needed the pieces to compete. Manu happened to fall into a perfect situation. A playoff caliber team that had already won rings and got lucky wiht a late pic. and off topic but how is kg overrated when his stats were even to duncan his whole career and once he got a supporting cast he won a ring? for people that complain about team sports and all this shit, u really seem to overlook how big a difference your supporting cast makes. so manu and duncan being good have nothing to do with their teammates knowing their roles and tmac and kg losing had nothing to do with them trying to turn straw into gold?

  • Ian

    austin are u really missing the point that badly
    im talking to the talent around him that he doesnt have anyone to take away shots or mns from him.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    Austin. Not to burst the whole scoring title bubble but this was 03 and 04 when he did this right.

    ’03

    New Jersey Nets 49 33
    Philadelphia 76ers 48 34
    Boston Celtics 44 38
    Orlando Magic 42 40
    Washington Wizards 37 45
    New York Knicks 37 45
    Miami Heat 25 57

    04

    Miami Heat-z 59 23
    Washington Wizards-x 45 37
    Orlando Magic 36 46
    Charlotte Bobcats 18 64
    Atlanta Hawks 13 69

    The only team to break 50 wins in that 2 year span was Miami. The same year they won the title. So you count his 2 scoring titles playing 4 games each against this shitty division. But yet, you won’t count Manu’s numerous International stats. And I’m not talking 2 scoring titles in the international game…I’m talking numerous MVPs in FIBA and the Olympics.

  • doug

    There was some idiot a couple of weeks ago trying to say a healthy TMAC is the best player in the L. Yeah and a mentally healthy Rasheed Wallace is the best forward the game has ever seen. The fact is these dudes are who they
    are stop it with the what if’s. TMAC is a 2nd tier super star with limited playoff success.

  • Bron42 AkA Your Moms Best Friend

    not to mention EVERY time tmac has made the playoffs, his numbers go up…so u cant even blame the losing on him. and about his knee? none of the games he missed were MUST win, so it would be smarter to chill and give his knee time to rest…where was all this loser talk when we had the yao debate who is a even bigger loser than tmac or kg lol

  • Ian

    bron im not european from argentina or american
    and u might not base your opinion on that
    but dont act like many people dont do it so dont bring that shit up when u know many people are like that cuz u r just foolin yourself.

    yes austin and manu is a better player now than back then can u say the same for tmac????

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    If TMac were 3 feet taller….he’d be the best player EVAR!!!!

  • Vinny

    Tmac might be better- but i would rather have Ginobili if I’m drafting for a team.

  • doug

    However, I do think it’s a stretch for coffee cake face aka Greg Popovich to call Manu the Argentinian Kobe Bryant and also put him on the same level.LMAO..that ranks second only to Tim Duncan making the”retarded”statement.

  • Ian

    doug post 62
    wow this might be a first for us
    but i agree 100% on that.

    people like to say one player IF this happens not reality

  • Ian

    but didn like post 67

    fallin perfect 3 feet taller 40 pounds heavier twice as fast and he didnt get injured

  • Ross

    Ginobili. Look at the playoffs.

    /conversation

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    @fallinup — It was hard to follow your last post, but the Pistons won the title in ’04. Miami won in ’06.

    My point is that using Manu’s international stats as evidence that he’s better than T-Mac is almost like using Joe Johnson’s college stats to prove he’s better than Brandon Roy. Or something like that.

  • doug

    I think TMAC and Greg Oden should be given passes because they have that disease when your body ages faster than the average human being. G.ODEN looks like he’s knocking on 50, he even has head wrinkles, that cat looks old.

  • Ian

    isnt joe johnson better than roy???? no????

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    I acknowledge the fact that T-Mac isn’t the same player today that he was in 2004. In fact, when we were brainstorming the “Who’s Better?” matchups in the office, I suggested T-Mac vs. Manu BECAUSE T-Mac has declined to a point where he’s closer to Manu’s level than Kobe or Wade’s.

  • http://www.werner.com.ar andy w

    If “better” means skills on paper, TMac’s superior.

    If by “better” we’re referring to real-world, objective results-based judgement, the argument is just silly.

    Manu has won everything, everywhere, with and without help, his entire life.

    TMac has done nothing. At all.

    Cheerio

  • doug

    I think Joe is a bit more polished but I think Roy is nicer I think he has more in his arsenal offensively.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    I was typin’ fast Austin. haha

    My point was. You have to take Manu’s stats into consideration because there are sooooo many. TMac got two scoring titles, playing with a shitty team, with a shitty record…in two shitty divisions. And the whole conference wasn’t all that back then.

    If Manu would have been like any average American. And went through the ranks like every one else….Highschool…College (maybe)….NBA…I’d say yeah, those FIBA stats are crap.

    But if that’s what we have to go by. Then it should be looked at because he’s winning while doing all of that. Not developing in college or as TMac did…watching Vince throw dunks down in Toronto.

  • joros

    id like to ad an objective point of view… super clut stats… thats the stats in the last 2 mins of a game /48 mins:

    Scoring:
    1) Lebron –> 74
    2) Kobe –> 63
    3) Manu –> 56
    way down tmac –> 33

    So if if the game is on the line and i need just plain scoring, im taking manu.
    Buut.. scoring by itself its not important, we need fg %

    manu –> 62%
    tmac –> 42 %

    So manu scores more efficiently too.

    You could say tmac creates that shots for himself while manu gets them from his graet teamates.. but..

    assisted fg % –> manu –> 14 % Tmac—> 20%

    Big time players, better players step up when it maters… and as everybody can see, tmac does it, but manu does it better.

    All that info comes from last year and its using 82games.com info… i hope there is no problem in giving away my source.

    Joros

  • Ian

    fallin nooo man u shouldnt have said developing in college for tmac
    that didnt happen hehehehe

    doug
    really i thought the only thing joe had on roy was offense but i still rather have joe on my team

  • doug

    Aah austin, I know most of you guys are on wade because he’s leading the league in scoring but it takes a different type of dude to keep that up for 82 games, have you seen this guys stat line for the past 2 games offensively and defensively man he was in the teens in scoring and they lost to atlanta and memphis. Please disregard this cats number of steals that doesn’t make him a good defender because he isn’t O.J. Mayo was giving him buckets like a vet. I was laughing the whole game how Mayo was doing him, in the back of my mind were
    the comments of D.WADE being a top tier defender. Man please..who have you seen him shut down.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    @ joros

    Good post.

  • Ross

    T-Mac has declined to a point, but that point is lower than where Ginobili resides currently.

  • Ric Hardwood

    Ginobili is the new Hondo (J. Havlicek)… with starter minutes, he could’ve been averaging 25-6-7 and he knows how to win… and everyone flops in the NBA now… he’s just one of the best at it…

  • Ian

    austin please tmac has declined to manus point lol and here i thought that manu was better than he was 5 years ago
    silly me

  • doug

    Joros those stats are cool but they don’t really show the impact a player has on the game. Stat Guy can get carried away by looking at numbers but you got to actually watch the game to see how a player impacts it because some of the intangibles won’t show up on 82games.com and I notice a lot of cats making arguements for some really weak players based on this website mostly Rick Kamla. I liken stat guy to someone who raises his hand in class to answer all the questions based on the cliff notes he purchased. He thinks he knows it all but everyone in class who has read the book including the professor know this guy is full of it. That being said I look at stats and watch the game and I know Manu is a better player right now than TMAC.

  • doug

    Ian TMAC has declined you can’t say Manu is better than TMAC was in Orlando, let’s not get carried away. Manu is a better player than TMAC right now but not 5 years ago.

  • Ian

    doug i said it in one of my early post that the orlando tmac was better
    and i didnt mean manu was a better player than tmac i meant that manu us better than himself five years ago hehehehe
    no tmac comparison i was comparing manu to manu

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    @Ian — Manu at his best was not, is not, has never been, and never will be better than T-Mac at his best. The only reason it’s even an argument now is because T-Mac has declined.

  • CDouble

    Didn’t Tmac put up 13 points in 39 seconds against the Spurs FTW? I know that was a couple years back, but I’d like to see Ginobli do that bfore ever counting that stupid last 2 minutes/per 48 stat. Tmac and Manu play different roles. Tmac is much more of a point forward and has taken on too much of an LO personality, where Ginobli is more of a Ben Gordon 6th man. I like both Ginobli and Tmac, but if you just stick to Ginobli’s left and make him go right…you can pretty much halt his game.

  • Ian

    austin
    sure because u said so
    then there is no argument
    id take manu to make a team over any tmac to make a team
    now u want them playin one on one???
    its my pick so relax

    the thing is u guys supportin tmac dont have anything other than what ifs

  • Ian

    cdouble
    wow u should email that to every team in the league because no one has figured out how to halt his game.

    i guess u dont have to do anything to tmac cuz all hes gonna do is take a weird fade away

  • Ian

    all u guys have is a fluke game in the regular season???

  • Drink the Haterade (KB24 Chip 09)

    Austin Burton says:

    In 22 career games vs. the Lakers, McGrady averages 20.3 points, 5.2 rebounds and 5.1 assists. That includes five games of 30-plus points. I think that qualifies as a little better than not being able to hold Kobe’s jock…

    That was me who said that T MAC can’t hold Kobe’s Jock…

    Would you like to start looking at their careers? Kobe got like 8 All Defensive teams, T MAC doesn’t have one. and let’s not forget when was the last time T MAC was out of the first round? Oh that’s right NEVER! T-Mac might be a potent offensive scorer, but he has no defense! That’s what separates Kobe from T MAC, is the defense. and the rings and the last second when it matters most shots, that T-Mac doesn’t have and who would pick T-Mac over Kobe? Exactly, T-Mac might be good but he will never be the closest thing to Jordan!

  • that’s whats up

    I’ll take Giniblets over T-Mac-n-cheese any day

  • joros

    dammit!! i knew there was a way to stop manu… i wonder why no one in the nba has tried and succeded to stop him from going left.

    Joros

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    @Haterade — Chill out, I didn’t say T-Mac was better than Prince Akeem Bryant. But giving him 20-5-5 every time out means he’s doing better than “not being able to hold his jock” territory. You were talking like T-Mac is Matt Maloney or somebody.

  • weng santos

    Better?

    McGrady is more talented.

    But Manu is a certified winner. Anywhere.

    01- Italian champ, Tournament of Americas gold
    02- Euroleague champ, World Champ Silver (robbed!)
    03- NBA champ
    04- Olympic Gold
    05- NBA champ
    06- Tournament of Americas silver
    07- NBA champ
    08- Olympic bronze

    McGrady might be a better individual talent, but this is a team sport, and winners make better teammates.

  • weng santos

    ^And that’s just at the top of my head =)

  • weng santos

    I think Dime has to define what they mean by better.

    Unless they do, the better player for me is the one who wins.

  • Drink the Haterade (KB24 Chip 09)

    @ Austin– I know you weren’t saying T Mac was better. But to say that “I have said and will continue to say that, when healthy, McGrady is right up there with Kobe and D-Wade”

    That’s just wrong… They are in a total different class. Not to mention that according to a lot of so called experts Kobe is hands down the best player in the “L”. Look at the last 8 minutes of the Gold Medal game. And we know that Lebron is a beast, but some GM’s think the difference between Kobe and Lebron is like the difference between and Volvo and a Maserati. We know which player is which. So to put T-Mac in the same category is just insane. I will say that when healthy offensively yes he is good, but he has never guarded anyone!

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    @weng

    The International Awards don’t count because they are “international”.

    The Olympics don’t count, cause it’s FIBA rules. (silly FIBA)

    The NBA Championships don’t count because all Manu was doing was riding Timmy’s coattails. Those rings have nothing to do with Manu.

    But Tmac can be harolded for his PPG playing on teams with shitty teammates. Or as it is so called…”Carrying a team.”…To where?…not past the first round, that’s fa sho!

  • jayslay

    whoa fellas…how can you not acknowledge the fact that as far as tmac goes so go the rockets…..tmac is still a premier player in this league….he still average 23 ppg 5 reb 5 ast…he aint no bum…he can take over a game at pretty much anytime agianst anyone….manu is good but he not tmac…manu is not even the best player on his team..not sayin he npt good but damn yall giving him WAY to much credit….a healthy manu while still good is not close to a healthy tmac

  • http://www.alltexasforums.com rangerjohn

    austin, we wil not, have not seen manu at his best simply because pop rarely lets him play more then 32 minutes a game. he has never averaged more then 31 (last season) where as tracy is averaging 35 minutes for his career. as a mater of fact, tracy has only averaged less then 32 for the 1st 3 seasons he played.

    the other thing i find funny, all this tracy is past his prime, manu is right in the middle, tracy is actually 2 yrs younger

  • control

    Oh my god. I goto a business meeting, come back and see that there is some crazy ass talk going on!

    Even making a post about comparing Manu and Tmac is just insulting. Comparing a role player to a guy who carries his team year after year? It would make more sense to compare Ruby “kobe stoppah” Patterson to Kobe to see who is better. What’s next guys? Comparing Nate Robinson to Chris Paul?

    Here is why Tmac is better:

    Every single point he scores, he is scoring while he is the focal of the other team’s defense. When he lead the NBA in scoring, he did it against at least 2 defenders, and at most 4 defenders a night. Other teams would plan their ENTIRE game around trying to stop Tmac, and they would feel lucky if they held him to 30/5/5.

    Athletically, if he didn’t have any injury issues, he might be one of the most gifted people in the NBA next to LeBron. He is as strong or stronger than almost everyone at his position, at the same time he is as quick or quicker than almost everyone at his position. He can see the entire court at all times (cause of the lazy eye) and his basketball skills are world class.

    At his best, Tmac was considered top 5 NBA.

    Here is why Tmac might not be better:

    Lazy eye makes him look slightly retarded and a lil’ scary. Injuries. Lack of post season success.

    Here is why some people think Manu is better:

    Their hearts flutter when Manu flashes his girly eye lashes at the camera, they are seduced.
    He has came through in the clutch. He has a great international resume. He has played beside a great point guard and one of the, if not the, best power forward ever.

    Here is why Manu isn’t better:

    When Manu is throwing up his nasty 16ppg, he is doing it working off of some clown named “Tim Duncan”. You might have heard of that TD guy, he is only the best power forward to have played the game. The only plans most teams make for Manu is “Tell our climate control guys to make sure the air conditioning doesn’t kick on while Manu has the ball, it will knock him over” and “Make sure the local doctors have plenty of gurneys around to wheel Manu around on”.

    Manu rarely has to eat a double team, and probably has never sniffed a triple team. Manu has NEVER carried his team on his back, he has never been the primary option, and the few times he has had to take up that role while TP and TD were out, he failed.

    One of the arguments for Manu being a great offensive player is that he is “crafty”…but does he even have a right hand? Has he EVER driven right? EVER? He is a pretty good slasher, he is a solid shooter and there is no question he comes through in the clutch…but he really isn’t that versatile a scorer. He has tuns of space to work with because he has great teammates who demand respect.

    Bottomline:

    Replace Manu with Tmac on the Spurs, they’d have at least as many rings and probably one or two more. Tmac would probably still be healthy because he wouldn’t have to play 40mpg against 2 or 3 defenders. Hell, I’ll go so far as to say, replace ME personally with Manu and I’m sure Tim Duncan in his prime would have got me a ring or two.

    People got to wake up, we are comparing someone who was at several points in his career, a top 5 player, to someone who has only started about half the games he has played in. Someone who has career averages of 22/6/5 with someone who has career averages of 14/4/3.

    This is no comparison, it’s obvious Tmac is by far a better talent, a better basketball player, and a better person than Manu ever would, or could be.

  • Ian

    jay those are almost manus numbers off the bench and with fewer mns
    plus doing it more effectively

  • Ian

    control
    i could only read a bit of that post
    i think we all know the player u hate the most in the league is manu so im sure your post is not biased at all

  • Ian

    and control career avgs dont count when comparing players RIGHT NOW hello u rather have shaq than howars now?

  • dagwaller

    “When healthy” – i.e., about half the games of the year.

    Ginobili.

  • doug

    Thanks for the discertation Control but that’s crap.Starting with this,”Athletically, if he didn’t have any injury issues, he might be one of the most gifted people in the NBA next to LeBron. He is as strong or stronger than almost everyone at his position”. I would hardly use the adjective “strong” to compare TMAC but heres a couple of other ones you might want to use next time:weak,defenseless,self loathing,pitiful and overrated. I don’t think this cat has ever played a full season you and Austin must be watching this cat on a different TV than the rest of the world. T-MAC is done man, he can’t play 5 games in a row with out complaining of some injury. Manu is a warrior, today I would take this cat over MAC for the simple fact he plays defense. I think Phil Jackson put it best during the turbulent times in LA and the rifts between Shaq & Kobe, Phil stated he actually considered bringing a straight up trade to Kupchac, TMAC for Kobe but he said everyone time TMAC had to play defense his complaints of back pain got louder and this was in 03,04 when MAC was at his best. I think this is the prevailing thought around the league about MAC. Manu on the other hand gets respect from everyone around the league because he gets after it, doesn’t sit out for stomach flu and contributes on both ends of the floor.

  • Ross

    T-mac is in the same boat as MJ, Kobe, Wade, etc.
    Manu is Manu, and nobody can do what he does. I think that’s why its hard to compare him to anyone.

  • doug

    Oh yeah, one more thing Spurs would not have more rings with TMAC than they do with Ginobli. Because Ginobli does the dirty work that MAC’s back can support him doing. TMAC wouldn’t fit in the spurs system because Pop requires all his players to play defense this automatically disqualifies him.

  • http://www.edthesportsfan.com SoulOnIce

    The fact that we’re even having to have this discussion lets me know the days of Tracy McGrady being dominant are over. In his heyday, it would be a downright insult for Andrew Katz to write a defense of Ginobili even being able to be in the SAME BUILDING as Tracy McGrady. However, I aint mad at him for doing so right now, but lets not forget this is also because Tracy McGrady has fallen from grace, and damn near to the point of no return.

    Austin,
    I’ve read your stuff for a long time, and I agree with just about any and everything you write, but to suggest that McGrady is on the Kobe/Wade level is…not something I agree with. It’s just not true. Granted, T-Mac will give us flashes of brilliance, and reminds us (on occasion) why he was ONCE CONSIDERED one of the best the league had, but that was a long, long, long time ago, my brother. It saddens me, because I’m a HUGE Tracy McGrady fan.

    There is no need to throw additional stats, because weng santos, Austin, Andrew, joros, and many others have already done that. Simply put, we all watch basketball, so our eyes shouldn’t deceive us. To answer the question…T-Mac is still better, due to teams having to game-plan for him, seeing defenses designed to stop him, and versatility (he is a better rebounder, ballhandler, and passer than Ginobili). Nothing against Ginobili: he is a VERY GOOD PLAYER, but I’d still take McGrady, but the gap is closer than it ever should be.

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    There’s a reason T-Mac has never been asked to come off the bench, though. What truly elite players besides Havlicek come off the bench?

    And the only “what if” I’ve been using is “when healthy” in regards to T-Mac. We all saw what banged-up Manu looks like in last year’s postseason. It ain’t pretty.

  • control

    Ian

    Career averages establish trends. Tmac’s trend has been that of a top 5 player who has been the focus of other team’s defenses. Manu’s trend has been that of falling to the ground every play after coming off the bench and turning it on with 2 minutes left in the game.

    Even so, lets look at just the last two seasons:

    Tmac 06-07, 25/5/6.5
    Manu 06-07, 16.5/4/3.5

    Tmac 07-08, 22/5/6
    Manu 07-08, 20/5/4.5

    Tmac is still better, and that is even with him playing while commonly referred to as “gimped”. Comparing 07-08 is comparing one of Tmacs worst years with by far Manu’s best year ever.

    If Manu was the best player on the Spurs, they’d be worse than the Thunder…

  • joros

    Control… last year manu put up thoose numbers… in considerably less minutes than tmac.

    Joros

  • control

    SoulOnIce is absolutely correct. It’s a more of a statement of how much Tmac has fallen that he can even be compared to Manu. We are comparing a guy who is clearly past his prime with a role player who had a career year.

  • control

    Joros

    In 6 minutes less than Tmac, and he did it more efficiently as well. Why isn’t Pop playing Manu for 40mpg? If he is the best player in the NBA as some people here seem to think, and if he’s as much as a warrior as everyone says, why can’t he handle playing superstar minutes?

  • joros

    Because the team doesnt need it. Its as simple as that, why give ur players “super star minutes” if u dont need to do it?

    Why get them more tired? why increase the risk of injury if u dont need to do it? If the team wins and gets to the playoffs, why getting tired when it doesnt matter.

    And another thing, we all now manu comes from the bench but then finishes games. People have asked “why does he come from the bench?” its an strategic desition from his coach. He could start in any team in the nba, yet he doesnt cuz his coached realized its better for his whole team if he comes from the bench.

    And finally is in NO WAY a role player, there is a rason while timmy and parker give manu the ball in the final minutes. Manu is a star and he is the best type of star, the one that wins.

    Joros

  • weng santos

    fallinup,

    Why doesn’t international basketball count? Basketball is basketball no matter where you are. The fundamentals are the same, the basic skills are the same, the objective is the same.

    FIBA is what the world plays on. FIBA and those multi-colored 12-panel Molten balls are what basketball is for the rest of the world. We sure can’t use NBA or US NCAA or NFHS or AAU rules as a point of comparison, because NO OTHER COUNTRY uses those rules! That would limit discussions to players raised in the United States, so there’s no merit in even including Manu in this article.

    I actually like FIBA rules better than NBA rules. For one, FIBA promotes better team play. I love coaching, but I hate coaching kids who want to pound the ball and go 1 on 1 all day. Plus, the FIBA game is more physical. I like it that FIBA refs don’t protect certain players.

    The NBA got me jaded a little- it’s more about marketing than anything. It’s about fancy dribbling, posterizing, athleticsm, breaking ankles, ratings. It’s not enough about winning, or good team play. If NBA coaches actuallr ran anything more comples than a 1-4 set or a high pick and roll or a post dump, I’d genuinely be surprised.

    Where’s the presses, blind side backcourt doubles, traps, junk defenses? Where’s the motion offense, no-dribble sets, the downpick-backpick-flare-popout-staggered-backdoor screen-away plays, the assist-on-every-field goal policy?

    Don’t even get me started on NCAA or NFHS rules- 35 second shotclocks, mid-range distance threes, players calling timeouts… please. That’s just a dumb game, and only badass college shooters like Mike Miller or JJ Redick or Stephen Curry or Eric Gordon make it any fun to watch, save for a transcendent collegian like Melo, AI, Ray Allen, and the like.

    Don’t get me wrong, I do enjoy watching the NBA game. But I wouldn’t want to coach it. I don’t like my players emulating the NBA game because it’s not fundamentally-sound, it rewards height and individualism too much. In the NBA and even in the NCAA, getting pure talent is like 90% of the battle. As a coach, I need to be more involved than that.

    In the end, basketball is still a team sport. Being a great teammate is still infinitely more important than just being a great player.

  • Johnny Knox

    tmac is definatly a more talented player
    ginobli just gets the job done

    At this point i will take manu….if we are talking about tmac from his magic days, tmac easily

  • doug

    Ross T-mac is in the same boat as MJ, Kobe, Wade, etc.?come on man It’s MJ, Kobe than you drop down a tier to Wade and Bron than you drop down another tier to TMAC, you guys stop putting DWADE on Kobes level neither he nor LBJ have enough under there belt for you to compare them to MJ or Kobe yet…again to be on this level you have to be doing it night in and night out for more than 5 years,none of those cats(DWADE,LBJ,TMAC)have made it on an NBA defensive team. There not accomplished or balanced enough yet on both ends of the floor.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    No one else past this post can use the..”HE CARRIES TEAMS” argument unless they can tell me:

    “WHERE IN THE HELL HAS TMAC CARRIED HIS TEAM TO???!!!”

  • doug

    Excuse me neither DWADE,LBJ or TMAC have been selected to any NBA all defensive team for there whole career as short or long as it may be. You have to dominate both ends of the court.

  • doug

    i’m with you @fallin up, TMAC has done nothing in the post season, this is where legends are made.

  • weng santos

    Stop the “in his prime” talk.

    Manu in his prime was a 20 point scorer in a very physical FIBA game where less freethrows are awarded. To those raised on US hoops, do you know how hard it is to score 15 points in a FIBA game, let alone a Euroleague or an Olympic game where, up to a couple years ago, you could swat balls off the rim?

    Do you know that there is no such thing as continuation in FIBA (and hence less and-ones)? You are only awarded an act of shooting foul if you are actually in the air and shooting.

    Don’t you dare bring up the Darko comparison, because Darko barely cracked 10ppg in a Division 2 or 3 FIBA league. He was drafted on potential alone, much like Kwame.

    Gasol was a star in FIBA basketball and is a star in the NBA today. Why was there such a howl when he was gotten for nothing by LA?

    The best thing about Tony Parker? He gets in the lane without too much fancy dribbling. He does not carry, even on hesitation moves- that’s a FIBA trait.

    Good players in their prime are good players anywhere they are. Talent is no respecter of locales.

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    T-Mac has carried his teams to six postseasons in eight years (post-Raptors). And since everyone here can agree he’s been saddled with some crappy teammates, that’s quite an accomplishment in my book.

  • weng santos

    Stop the “in his prime” talk.

    Manu in his prime was a 20 point scorer in a very physical FIBA game where less freethrows are awarded. To those raised on US hoops, do you know how hard it is to score 15 points in a FIBA game (where games are won with about 60 points), let alone a Euroleague or an Olympic game where, up to a couple years ago, you could swat balls off the rim?

    Do you know that there is no such thing as continuation in FIBA (and hence less and-ones)? You are only awarded an act of shooting foul if you are actually in the air and shooting.

    Don’t you dare bring up the Darko comparison, because Darko barely cracked 10ppg in a Division 2 or 3 FIBA league. He was drafted on potential alone, much like Kwame.

    Gasol was a star in FIBA basketball and is a star in the NBA today. Why was there such a howl when he was gotten for nothing by LA?

    The best thing about Tony Parker? He gets in the lane without too much fancy dribbling. He does not carry, even on hesitation moves- that’s a FIBA trait.

    Good players in their prime are good players anywhere they are. Talent is no respecter of locales.

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    For what it’s worth, Charlie Bell and Anthony Parker were superstars in FIBA. Where are they now?

  • control

    fallinup

    The guy has carried groups of scrubs to the playoffs several times. Yes, he got knocked out in the first round, but didn’t Kobe do the same thing when put into his position? Tmac has elevated his game in the play offs several times, even with Houston he’s dropped a few 40/10/5 games and got NO help from his team.

    Tmac is one of only a few guys in the entire NBA who could carry groups of scrubs to the play offs…even Wade has missed the playoffs trying to carry groups of scrubs (though his scrubs were especially scrubby).

    Like I said before: If Manu is the best player on his team, the team would be worse than the Thunder.

  • doug

    Austin that has to be acceptable for a T-MAC fan because that’s all he does is “carry his teams to post seasons” and lose, stop enabling TMAC’s weak mind and body he’s just not built for a franchise to be put on his back, he has a bad back.
    @Weng santos did you just say,”Manu in his prime was a 20 point scorer in a very physical FIBA game”I think it was a typo or something. The FIBA is physical?man that’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. Those cats manufacture nothing but softies and floppers as far as physicality(Dirk,Vlade Divac,Sasha Vujacic etc)the list goes on.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    @ control

    You forgot…When healthy.

  • control

    fallinup

    No, he did that while injured. Has the guy even been “healthy” since he left Toronto?

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    @doug — “Weak mind?” Are you referring to that first-round Game Seven where T-Mac gave up at halftime and only took three shots in the second half? Oh wait, that was Kobe.

  • MadSammyboy

    It’s all about the rings… Gino has ‘em, TMac doesn’t.

  • control

    Madsammyboy

    So I guess you are saying Robert Horry is better than Michael Jordan?

  • doug

    Austin are you referring to the MVP and best player on the planet Kobe Bryant whose 21-3 and contending for a championship. Hollar at me when your dude makes it out of the first round. Your in denial man, let me go AA meeting on you, the first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one. This cat is crumbs, you must be a Rockets ball boy,figuratively and literally. Let me ask you something how does it feel that the last time you guys won a ship cats were rocking high top fads, wearing zubaz pants and harring bone chains. That must really suck man, Lakers got now, Kobe’s got now.Now get back to work, your boy TMAC is running short on icy hot and ace bandages. I’ve never seen one dude with so many different braces, shoulder brace, knee brace, back brace that cat is MR.Tin man give him the heart he’s been asking for.

  • doug

    @ control you and Austin are really on T-MACS line, I understand the hurt you guys never get to see this cat play.

  • http://GEE2.com GEE…How come Santa doesn’t just say one “Ho!”

    Wow! All this for T?

    “Bang like T-Mac” ~ Jay Z

    I am totally biased lol so that pretty much throws out anything I will say beyond this.

    Still for me the equation is simple. Could T-Mac have accomplished all that Manu has and vice versa if they were to switch places.

    T most def. could do all that Manu has done. While on the other hand Manu cannot carry a NBA team alone. Even when Duncan and Parker have been out and Manu has been “The Man’ if you will, he doesn’t deliver as well or as consistently when he is the head of the team.

    Sure Mac hasn’t gotten out of the first round. Still if put in Mac’s place Manu likely would have never even made the playoffs at all.

    Then plain and simple too, T-Mac is the actual better player. Going on skill set, defense and all, the only thing that Manu has over Mac is a stronger body (in the not as injured way).

    Then again I am heavily biased. So please throw my comment out and strike it from all records.

    SWAT preshate the correction lol, but yea…
    …HOUSTON UP!

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    And I’m sure, in 20 years when they look down at the greats…there gonna look at TMac and go…damn, now thats a winner…carrying a team six times to the first round of the playoffs.

    Can we bring up the fact that all that carrying must have wore Tmac down to be run out by the Pistons in 4 games in a row after being up 3 in the Playoffs. Or should we not get that technical?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    But you’re all right. In the world of What IF’s and Maybe So’s….TMac clearly dominates. I get it.

  • control

    doug

    It’s not that Tmac is my boy. It’s more that I anyone who is thinking clearly can’t be considering Manu on the same level as a player as Tmac. Obviously not in the past, probably not now and unlikely in the future.

    “Lakers got now, Kobe’s got now”. They didn’t win last year, so they ain’t the top dog. Don’t be rubbing your dick yet else you might get blue balls, son.

  • weng santos

    “For what it’s worth, Charlie Bell and Anthony Parker were superstars in FIBA. Where are they now?”

    See, that’s what I like about the FIBA game. It’s a system that wins. Teams make stars, not the other way around.

    For what it’s worth, Brandon Jennings should have been a major US college star now, not the 6 ppg bundle of hype he is in FIBA.

    Josh Childress was a 12ppg guy in the NBA, and he is the same in FIBA.

    Point is FIBA stars don’t automatically make NBA stars, and vice versa. They’re just measured differently, and coached differently. As the style changes, so does the yardstick.

    That’s why Manu is a winner. He is a good player in FIBA, and a good player in the NBA. He has championships in both rule systems. Basically, he wins, no matter what the league.

    He is an effective basketball player, fits into systems and gameplans, does not need the team to adjust to him, and does so without the accompanying ego.

    Like I said, TMac was, is, and will always be more talented. But that’s about it. “Better” for me is reserved for winners; winning is the ultimate measure of an athlete, after all.

  • Marci

    TMac

  • joros

    I guess there is no way to end this discussion… so ill just say one more thing.

    If u what u want from ur player is:

    - sellling shoes
    - appearing in sport center hihglights

    Then get t-mac. But if u want to:

    - win
    - win
    - win
    - play defense
    - a player that gives it all for his team even putting his health at risk

    Then take manu.

    Last olympics after reinjuring his ankle against team USA, manu wanted to play the 3-4 place game vs lithuania. He wanted it so bad that he changed his clothes and starting to warm up (that is on an ankle that required surgery weeks afterwards). After he realized he just couldnt play, he cryied in the lockerroom . He wanted his team to win so badly that he cryied at the realization that he just couldnt play. That is manu, a player that gives it all for this team to win, when he was a free agent he had bigger offers from other teams in which he could have been the big star, yet he refused he choose to stick with his team, sacrifice his own pocket and stardom to maximise the chances of his team winning.

    Its really siimple… u want to showboat…. flashy dunks… get tmac.

    U want to win, just get manu and walk away knowing its a steal.

    Joros

  • http://myspace.com/scoobwondah Sccob

    T-mac has the ability to do more things on the court (when healthy) but Ginobli is the better baller. He’s relentless.

  • MadSammyboy

    control- “So I guess you are saying Robert Horry is better than Michael Jordan?”

    It’s proportional. Are you going to tell me Gino’s only as significant ot those title runs as Horry was?

    The guy also has a gold medal. He’s just a consummate winner. TMac’s never won ANYthing.

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    @doug — Way to avoid the Game Seven ’06 Suns reference completely. I’m just saying, that alone is more of a sign of a “weak mind” than somebody getting injured. Are you saying Grant Hill has a weak mind, too? Injuries happen; and you should know, as Kobe has four seasons on his resume where he’s failed to play 70 games. Prince Akeem Bryant is better than T-Mac now, I’m not denying it, but T-Mac is better than “crumbs” as you say.

  • that’s whats up

    Ginobili’s successful resume is long….

    T-Mac’s is: been to all-star games, lost in first rounds. period.

  • doug

    Control you don’t get it do you? Your boy TMAC is salivating at a chance to do what Kobe considers a failure last year. Win MVP, get to the Finals and lose,win a gold medal this would be TMAC’s dream season. Kobe considers that a failure because he knows nothing but winning ships and sets his goals at a higher standard.Furthermore, I don’t think you understand the part where I said we have now. We’re on a collsion course to meeting one of those cats from the east in the finals and with a healthy squad which we didn’t have last year I like our chance. Even if you disagree with that the fact still remains we’re in the Contenders category last year, this year and years to come. Houston….not so much aren’t they like 16-9. We’re lapping the competition in the west and we’re second best in the L.

  • control

    Joros

    Are you talking about Tim Duncan or Manu?

    There ain’t one Manu fan here who will address this statement, they can’t because they know it to be true: If Manu is the best player on a team, it would be as bad as the Thunder are right now.

  • Jim

    Gee I love you but I can’t agree. I think, obviously, Manu couldn’t do what T-Mac does. But T-Mac could not do what Manu does.

    Manu isn’t the 16ppg or whatever, it’s closing games. I don’t know if there is anyone better than Manu at closing games, and if there is his name is Kobe or Lebron and that’s it. Also, coming off the bench is to be applauded. T-Mac would have cried about it.

    I don’t see how T-Mac gets them past the Lakers in 04, but he probably does against the Mavs in 06 because he doesn’t play D and wouldn’t have got that stupid foul on Dirk.

    And also Manu is not Havlicek, get the hell out. That’s an all-timer vs. a great modern player with a weird role.

  • http://www.alltexasforums.com rangerjohn

    all of this “manu cant carry a team alone” is BS. he has a winning record with no duncan and parker, he has been lucky he has not had to do that for long or often.

    look at who manu has had to play with outside of TD/TP, and you guys are trying to say that battier, scola, landry, yao, alston, and so on are not AT LEAST a little better then the guys manu has outside the other 2/3 of the REAL big 3

  • control

    doug

    Lakers will probably come out of the West, they are a strong team and there ain’t no sane person who could say otherwise. Of course Tmac would kill for what Kobe did last year, I think just about any person who has ever watched a basketball game no named “Michael Jordan” would kill for what he did…saying otherwise is just stupid.

    They were plenty healthy when they faced the Celts last year, it just wasn’t their time and the same could happen again this year.

  • doug

    Austin have you ever played basketball beyond your local park boundaries? If you have you’d realize injuries are part of the game but mostly due to being in poor physical shape and not getting after in the offseason which I doubt tmac does. It’s hard to get him to play a game during the regular season, everytime I read his stat line it says DNP-stomach flu.I can only imagine what this cats offseason looks like. I imagine lots of napping and crying, he just strikes me as a real emotional dude.06 Suns game 7? Man it’s 08 Uncle Rico, that series made Kobe who he is now, the best player in the L and competing for a ship. Can this much be said about MAC? I didn’t think so.

  • MadSammyboy

    Control- “There ain’t one Manu fan here who will address this statement, they can’t because they know it to be true: If Manu is the best player on a team, it would be as bad as the Thunder are right now.”

    That’s just disingenuous, and you know it. Gino was arguably the Spurs’ best player LAST season, when the Spurs made the conference finals (and might have advanced, had – you guessed it- Gino not been limited by injury). You might not agree that he’s as good as, or better than, TMac, but making a statement like this either reveals your ignorance or betrays your real motive – to irritate Gino fans.

    The guy’s made every team he’s played for significantly better, and he’s been a winner at every level.

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    Dime Magazine, Special Vegas issue, February 2007:

    Tim Duncan: “My ideal starting five? Honestly, the five that adidas put together, you can’t argue with that at all. KG, T-Mac, Gilbert, Chauncey and myself. You can’t argue with that five compared to anyone else. As a sixth man, I might add Kobe. Or, sh*t, even put Manu in there with us.”

  • doug

    Control bynum was injured and T.Ariza was just getting back from an injury, they weren’t healthy last year they were really injured not like paul pierce were you come back in the second half with rookie legs. Stop watching espn highlight mix in a NBA league pass package and you’ll see how just these two cats have changed the whole dynamic of the Laker team. They’re a different team with these two players.

  • control

    Why is it people are saying that “coming off the bench” is a good thing? What legit “stars” “come off the bench”? How is it a good strategy to have your “star” sitting on the bench for almost 20 minutes a game?

    I have never heard anyone say “You know, Phil Jackson should keep Kobe on the bench for most of the game…make sure he don’t get tired and shit”. Why is that a GOOD quality when it comes to Manu?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    Wow.

    Now that “WHAT IF” is a way out there one, control. But I can answer it, then throw a whole bunch of hypetheticals out there…like, who would be the GM?…Would he have a team EXACTLY like OKC?…is he allowed at least one big man? What would the cap situation be like???

    A whole slew of whatif’s….or you can just take my word for it and say that if I built a team around Manu…they’d be better than the Thunder. So, YES is my answer. Take it to the bank with that silly question.

    There are no hypetheticals on if you built a team around TMac…because we’ve already seen the outcome. An early playoff exit. Nuff said. No what if’s there.

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    @doug — So T-Mac’s injuries are a result of “napping and crying,” while Kobe’s injuries are a result of…? And come on, let’s not get into what Kobe spends his offseasons doing.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    “Why is it people are saying that “coming off the bench” is a good thing? What legit “stars” “come off the bench”? How is it a good strategy to have your “star” sitting on the bench for almost 20 minutes a game?”

    It’s a good thing. Because you see the results. 3 rings for Manu.

    You can go the same route and say…How awesome are you to be longing all of these major minutes “carrying a team” and all you have to show for it is 1st round playoff defeats…but that would just be nit picky now. lol

  • doug

    Austin what did you expect TD to say he is with addidas that cat knows in his heart that the only one you could keep in there is KG. Chris Paul is better than Chauncy,Kobe is better than Arenas,Mac,KG, TD all of them. He will readily admit this. I’m going KG,Kobe,TD,CP3,Bron..easy money against this addidas 5.

  • control

    madsammyboy

    Irritating Manu fans (aka worshipers/stalkers/lovers) is always a good thing. I will not deny that I take a little bit of pleasure doing it.

    You are wrong saying that Manu was “arguably the Spurs player last season” though. Manu can find the fountain of youth 10 years from now, and Tim Duncan could be using a walker and not be able to stand fully up…and Tim Duncan would still be the best player on the Spurs.

    doug

    Bynum can’t even average a double double right now. Injuries happen, Lakers only had one starter injured so they can’t be making excuses. If it were Kobe who was fucked up then it wouldn’t be such reckless talk.

  • joros

    Control u have to be kidding.

    Ill just take the thunder’s rooster and add manu and tell u what what would happen.

    1) INSTANT EFFECT: Thunder who lead the league in games lost by 6 or less points now have an excelente scoring option to carry them in the clutch. This quickly translates into more wins.

    2) LOCKER ROOM EFFECT:

    KD realizes a man with a lot less phisical tools than himeself can outplay him and outplay the best guys in the league. He realizes its not just about talent, it about effort and inteligence. He starts learning and this translates to more wins for the thunder.

    3) FAN SUPPORT: the people rapidly go nuts for ginobilli’s all out style, he beceomes a fan favorite and the franchise gets more money and more fans.

    Realize that being spectacular is not what matters. Winning is what does.

    Joros

  • http://www.geocities.com/dagomardeg Dagomar

    Manu is one of the greatest winners in the NBA today, but his stats are easily overshadowed, because he’ll play any role his coach asks him to if it means winning. He’s a solid defender, an incredibly tough player, one of the great clutch performers in the league today.

    Okay, he’s not quite the (slightly overrated) passer T-Mac has become. He’s not quite the rebounder. But as a scorer he’s actually better – if not as shot-happy. Give me Manu any day of the week, and I think you’ll be hard-pressed to find a coach or GM who disagrees.

  • control

    fallinup

    How is it in anyway bad that a guy busts his ass while injured to carry a team to the playoffs? How can you turn that into a negative? If he just gave up then you’d be riding him about giving up on the game and not being “a warrior like Manu”.

    Look at all the guys who bust their ass, injured or not, and can’t carry a team to the playoffs.

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    @fallinup — Actually, Manu’s first ring came when he was a definite role player. In ’03, he played 20 minutes a game as a rookie. In ’05 (chip #2), he was a full-time starter. 2007 was his only title as a sixth man.

    Thing is, I don’t have much against Manu. I like him, and think he’s one of the best late-game guys in the League. I’m the one who made the Hines Ward comparison in Smack the other day. But he’s not better or even equal to T-Mac.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    [sarcasm]Oh, you are so wrong, joros..What IF scenarios only justify the logic of the ones that support TMAC. Not Manu. You are so so wrong! [/sarcasm]

  • doug

    log160, there you go bringing up the past Austin, do you still sport mullets,fanny packs, biker shorts and drive backwards to work. Man we’re talking 2008, again those things made Kobe who he is a killer, a MVP, the best player in the L. If t-mac was enduring the same circumstances he would should surely crumble he’s a weak dude. I think the most mentally strong players to play in any sport are Tiger Woods,Kobe,MJ,Barry Bonds,Lance Armstrong no other athlete has the ability to compartmentalize whats going on outside and harness into legendary performances more than these cats. Regardless of how you feel about any of them there all the most mentally tough people in any sport.

  • Dwayne Schintzus

    wait…i missed the past 155 comments. can someone update me on whats going on?

  • ldawg23

    Until Manu can carry…CARRY a team BY HIMSELF for a ENTIRE season…Then we can talk….UNTIL he can CARRY that team and win a scoring title, THEN we can talk…Manu is not even in the SAME room as TMAC…

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    LOL….fine, I fold.

    Carry a team > Winning

  • control

    The problem with this discussion is that a majority of the people who say Manu is better than Tmac, would also say that Manu is better than all these people:

    LeBron
    Kobe
    KG
    Tim Duncan
    Dwight Howard
    Vince
    Amare
    Jesus
    Their Mother

    They will also say that if Tim Duncan wasn’t on the Spurs, Manu would still have the same (if not more) rings. They would say that his shit don’t stink (they know from experience) and that the sweat from his jockstrap tastes like the sweetest honey.

    The one area where Manu has to be given props on, he by far has the most loyal fans. His fans would die for him, would kill for him and would drink ANY colour koolaid for him. Guy should seriously look into starting a cult.

  • ldawg23

    Manu has won with a HOF player TIM…TMAC never had a HOF pivot player…and until YAO can stay healthy all year, he’ll never be a HOF pivot either. If at ANY POINT TMAC and MANU switched places,the Spurs would be better, and Magic, Raptors, Rockets would have sucked worse. Im not even a TMAC fan

  • MadSammyboy

    control- “You are wrong saying that Manu was “arguably the Spurs player last season” though. Manu can find the fountain of youth 10 years from now, and Tim Duncan could be using a walker and not be able to stand fully up…and Tim Duncan would still be the best player on the Spurs.”

    Well, that’s debatable. I personally agree with you that Duncan is de facto the best player, but some have maintained that Gino was the Spurs’ most important player last season.

    All that aside, you didn’t address any of the other points I’ve made on this board, and because of that, it’s hard not to write you off as someone who has a personal dislike for a player, and is basing his position on that bias… which is totally fine, but it shouldn’t floor you that nobody sees any of your premises as valid.

  • ldawg23

    @Control
    AMAN…You hit the nail on the HEAD

  • http://GEE2.com GEE…How come Santa doesn’t just say one “Ho!”

    Jim T actually had to earn his time on the court by playing D when he first started.

    I don’t know how hard you follow T but he has and is willing to guard the best guy on the court and he even has guarded dudes bigger than him and had great success past and present players.

    Manu is good on D but I wouldn’t say he is better than T-Mac thre either. Unless you talkin floppin lol.

    Oh and if the discussion is a healthy T-Mac it’s not even up for debate.
    The only time Manu is even up for debate with T is if and when (granted it’s a lot) T is injured.

    Manu has also had a share of failure without Timmy and Parker, when he is the head guy.

    Manu is most def. a player that you don’t build a team around. Granted neither is Tracy at this point.

    I ultimately feel this is a debate that can never be resolved because nothing can be figured. I am sure there is no way to convince Manu supporters T is better as there is no way to convince me Manu is the greater.

    The only thing I can give Manu is that he has had better time and chance happen to him than Tracy.

    Which unfortunately leads to the many if’s when you bring up anything comparing Tracy.

    Yet even with injury and in current state give me Tracy before Manu. The best I can say at this point is they may be equal but in now way is Manu the greater to me.
    Tracy is the same or (take last night for example) greater.

  • dapro

    TMac has carried several teams with a worse supporting cast than any superstar that I can remember. For those that call him soft, fragile, etc…the type of effort that he has shown takes a toll on your body

    Manu has never had the pressure of being the man and playing as the focal point of offense and being the opposing teams main objective to stop. Not in FIBA or the NBA has Manu carried a team for an entire season let alone several

    Manu plays with a bondafide HOF and arguably the greatest PF ever and one of the best PG’s in the game. He has the luxury being able to take over when needed

    T-Mac even in recent years in Houston had to carry the team especially when Yao is out. The Rockets minus Yao are really not that much better than the previous teams Mac has played for with the exception of this season

  • dapro

    Some of these post are senseless if you say Manu is better now than T-Mac then you have an argument but to say that T-Mac over the course of his career is not a better ball player than Manu is absurd

  • http://GEE2.com GEE…How come Santa doesn’t just say one “Ho!”

    Just read 173! Hilarious!

  • MadSammyboy

    control- “They will also say that if Tim Duncan wasn’t on the Spurs, Manu would still have the same (if not more) rings.”

    Who’s EVER said this? I haven’t read this anywhere on this board or this site. You’re ascribing a position to your opponent, then attacking the position- that’s called a straw man. Knock it off.

  • control

    madsammyboy

    It ain’t called straw nothing. It’s called sarcastic humour…learn yourself some.

  • ldawg23

    @MadSammyBoy
    I read this site, ALOT…and ive heard the Manu could have just as many rings without Timmy has he does. Or more IF he was the main man on the team and it was built around him…MANU lovers are crazy mutha fucka’s….THEY LOVE Manu, like a fat kid loves cake…Like Michael Jackson Loves little Boys

  • http://GEE2.com GEE…How come Santa doesn’t just say one “Ho!”

    With some help from others on this one!

    2001 ain’t no way Manu is carrying that Orlando squad to the playoffs and putting up 33.5, 8.3 assists and 6.5 boards with Bo Outlaw as the third guy on the roster in minutes played. Oh yea and ask Glenn Big Dog if Tracy can play D. What past player who was a very good player at the time, can you give me to ask for Manu. I will give you a day to research it.

    2003 Carrying the Magic again as the head man, not just for a little while till his 1 and 2 get back like Manu, but for a whole season.

    It’s much different to be a 3rd option who has to carry the weight sometimes when you know your 1 and 2 will be back to take pressure off you. It’s much greater to be the 1 and for many years not even have a 2 or 3 and still do very well.

    2005 This dude guarded Dirk and gave him more than he wanted. Mind you isn’t Dirk is like a 7ft’er aint he? I’ll wait again for you to find the 7ft’er Manu had continued success against on D.

    That is just a few highlights. Manu is a great player, I used to hope he could actually play for Houston. I hoped that as him being a 2 to McGrady’s 1 though.

    Tracy is the greater.

  • MadSammyboy

    control- “It ain’t called straw nothing. It’s called sarcastic humour…learn yourself some.”

    I’d rather talk about the points made here that the anti-Gino crowd refuses to address.

  • MadSammyboy

    ldawg23- “I read this site, ALOT…and ive heard the Manu could have just as many rings without Timmy has he does. Or more IF he was the main man on the team and it was built around him…MANU lovers are crazy mutha fucka’s….THEY LOVE Manu, like a fat kid loves cake…Like Michael Jackson Loves little Boys”

    Fair enough. I’ve not read anything that extreme, but if you say it happens, I believe you. However, obvious and flawed superlatives like that need not be acknowledged. What frustrates ME is that legitimate arguments favoring Gino are being ignored.

    I suppose it could come down to the distinction between who the better PLAYER is (either in a statistical or athletic sense) and who the better WINNER is.

    Wilt was a better statistical player and arguably a better athlete than Russell (did you know Russell only made a few all-NBA first teams, and was usually relegated to the second team behind Wilt? Did you know that Russell has a career shooting percentage of around 45%, which is extremely underwhelming for a post player?), but Russell was the greater winner. Not that I’m comparing THESE players to THOSE players, but the analogy holds.

  • Ian

    wow austin
    u were kinda one of my fav writers here but u sir are full of SHIT. i dont mind everyone else sayin tmac but u who only talks about rings????? didnt u pick parker over deron because hes the pg of a championship team. isnt manu the sg of a championship team??

    and that comment about bell and parker being fiba stars and where are they now must be the dumbest shit written so far. is manu on their level isnt manu more an allstar then bell level??? have they produced like manu in the nba. the point is that everywhere manu plays he has produced.

    control sorry career avgs dont count unless u tell me right now u prefer shaq over howard.

    austin another thing gettin a team to the playoffs and never advancing is bullshit
    first it was the east back when 30 wins could get u an 8th seed
    second tmac has blown 3-1 leads
    third more than half the teams make the playoffs so yeah making the first round is crap

    one of the things i say about kobe against him is that he didnt get outta the first round being the man well that changed last season so no tmac is nowhere near him.

    control please tell me what manu supporter says that shit
    if timmeh wasnt on the spurs worst case scenario is guess what tmacs career for manu.
    manu was arguably the spurs best player for a 2-3 year stretch and the mvp vs detroit.

    manu is by far the more efficient scorer and lets not get in it in the defense department dirty work also manu sacrifice stats for team manu. so where is it again that tmac is better not counting what ifs

  • Duke

    NBA: Where “what ifs” happens.

  • Ian

    gee
    the question is who is better today

  • Ian

    LOL nice post duke

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    Sooooo….

    Manu’s individual awards don’t count because it’s FIBA (even though they were MVP’s..and also, MVP of the Olympics.) It doesn’t matter…still FIBA. check

    Manu’s titles don’t matter…because of Timmy..ya know, regardless of if Manu was on those teams or not, Timmy woulda won the chip). check

    Everything that Manu has won (which is EVERYTHING basketball), doesn’t matter. Because he wasn’t “carrying the team”. DAMN YOU MANU FOR NOT HAVING TO DO THAT! check

    —-

    TMac is better because he carried crap ass teams. Never won…but carried. (but one would ask, how much carrying would he have to do alongside Tim Duncan? But let’s not dive into that.) check

    TMac is better because he led his crap ass team, in a crap ass division, in a crap ass conference…for two years…in scoring. check

    If both careers ended right at this moment. And you look at the two…what they’ve accomplished, invidually and on a TEAM. (which alot of folks seem to forget that this IS a team sport)….

    Who would get in the HOF first? And don’t be throwin what if’s and shoulda coulda woulda’s…you know damn well what the answer is…Manu.

    But as I’ve seen…The Question: “Who is better?” Can be strewn in both ways, for both players. So take it for what it’s worth.

  • Drink the Haterade (KB24 Chip 09)

    @ Dapro–
    So he could carry the likes of Kwame and Smush as starters?

  • Drink the Haterade (KB24 Chip 09)

    @ Austin–
    Hey bro, what can you tell me about Compton Dominguez? I going to their game tonight

  • Drink the Haterade (KB24 Chip 09)

    Falln up–love the sarcasm…

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    @Ian — Like I said in the original post, I would pick Parker over Deron because their talent is about equal, and in those cases I’ll take rings. But T-Mac and Manu are not equal in terms of talent. T-Mac is simply better.

  • dapro

    Drink

    I see your Smush and raise you Tyron Lue

  • Ian

    austin in what if world sure tmac is better btw u still the best just not today lol

  • control

    Damn near 200 posts on this thread and all that has been solidly determined is that Manu has his rings because of Tim Duncan and Tmac is injury prone.

    Next problem ready to be solved: Global Warming.

    Good work guys, it should only take 300-400 posts to get that minor issue ironed out.

  • Vinny

    Drink- dont wear blue!

  • http://GEE2.com GEE…mobile

    Ian oh then best I can say is a tie. Again though if I just have to pick, give me T.

    There is a difference because one has made himself great alone versus one who has made himself great with the help of other greats.

    Can’t compare a sidekick to a hero.

  • ldawg23

    Here is the real question…IF…i no i no IF…Would The Spurs take TMAC for Manu straight up? Would the Rockets take Manu for TMAC straight up??

    The answer is the SPURs would take TMAC…and the rockets would get BLASTED for letting TMAC go for ONLY a 6th man SUPERSTAR….

  • that’s whats up

    Only a post with Politics or Manu could get 200 posts – lol

  • that’s whats up

    The Spurs would never give Manu up for T-Mac.

    Manu plays more games/minutes each year. Him being hurt last year, then playing hurt in the olympics, then missing time early this season was a fluke.

    T-Mac missing time is the expected and is the norm.

  • control

    that’s whats up

    Manu has never played a full season, don’t kid yourself.

    Well gentlemen, it’s been fun debating this fine subject, but I have to take off. At least there hasn’t been any Manu fans trying to defend Manu’s pussy ass flopping…for that I give Manu fans props.

  • Vinny

    Ok how is Tracey never making out of the first round great? That year they had Detroit down 3-1 then lost the seris, I didnt see tracey lead his team to the 1 win they needed, if he’s such a great player- he cant lead his team to 1 win?? He has games where he dominates- But people like MJ-WHO are truly great- dominate for a career!

    But you cant tell me G. hasnt benefited from playing along side tim and Parker. What would happen if he played major minutes and had to carry a team by himself? He probably wouldnt get out of the first round either!

    Like i said way back in post 66 Tracey is not dependable enough for me- i’d take G.

  • dagwaller

    Shareef Abdur Rahim had some pretty nice stats for the Grizzlies/Hawks for a few years. Who would you rather have had, him or TD?

    And don’t say TD! He only won because he had Manu and Tony Parker! If Shareef Abdur Rahim had those two, we’d be talking about a Grizzlies dynasty, not the Spurs. TD would have put up good numbers, sure, but he wouldn’t have won.

    Mmm, nah. Give me TD, Manu, and TP. You can’t separate them. You can OVERLOOK a couple of them, as McHale and Parish are probably overlooked because of Bird. But Manu and TP are almost as important to that team as TD is.

    Furthermore, if you look up some of T-Mac’s teammates, they’re not exactly chopped liver. Yao and Artest are both pretty good.

  • Drink the Haterade (KB24 Chip 09)

    @ Vinny– why not? It’s not in Compton the game is in Las Vegas

  • Ian

    dag
    perfect example like i said people here judge all the players diff they dont judge the same.

    idawg
    wrong no way the spurs do that trade

    gee
    pippen is a sidekick not a superstar ??? so is mchale ???? sp is west????? so is jabbar ????? so is the big o when they won in 70???? so was drexler???? then ok manu is just a role player take the scrub with better numbers on a bad team.

    so i guess i rather have richmond than dr j because he had moses

  • Ian

    vinny thats what i said if manu cant carry a team then he is tmac so u dont lose by taking manu over tmac

  • Vinny

    Oh ok, i thought it was at Dominquez.

  • Ian

    fellas it was all good
    but i have to go (dinner with my gfs friends please someone shoot me)

  • Vinny

    Hey Ian- i hear dr women are beautiful, true??

  • Ian

    vinny mail me ill send u some pics of the group
    iqueliz@yahoo.com i think ull like coming over

    theres a girl u guys like a lot in the states that is all dominican in body and hair bro boyonce is kinda of an example of the body type around here
    quest should know

    u know people kinda like women from another country put i cant say i trade a dr woman for anything its not just the way they look but latin girls are sexier than euros or american girl in all they do imo.

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    @Haterade — Jordan Hamilton is The Man over there at Dominguez. Senior small forward, 6-7, pure scorer. The program itself is always strong, but Hamilton is the main one to watch this year.

  • Drink the Haterade (KB24 Chip 09)

    thanks Austin, I know they consistently produce studs, and tonight, they’re gonna win by at least 85… My nephew told me they were gonna be playin his school Spring Valley, all of them for SVHS, short, fast, and only two maybe strong players, only two people that can ball and they gonna get their asses kicked, I am almost tempted to sit on the Dominguez side.

  • http://GEE2.com GEE…What you say about my mama?

    Ian that is nice. Still you and I both know I mean you can’t straight up compare someone who is in a minor roll to a major. Key words are straight up.

    Not who they were with and what shoes they wore and all that.

    Sure Pippen was great but go ahead and compare him to Jordan straight up.

    That is why they have the “other” positions in so many things. It’s cause everyone can’t do as much as, as good as, as consistent as or any other as as the stars or head guys can do it.

    Manu has no spectacular to him. What? What? individually has he done so great in the NBA?

    Don’t say win, cause it’s a team game and we all know he has played on the stronger team.

    Speaking of team people stop saying Ron. T just started playing with him, it ain’t like T been had him to ball with. Outside of Yao and I will give you Shane, T hasn’t had a lot.

  • knoc

    id take manu over tmac. dude is just a flat out winner

  • snook

    too long to read, my pick goes to Manu

  • http://GEE2.com GEE…What you say about my mama?

    Oh I just realized Ian had to roll, well I am sure you will check back and when you do read 216 lol.

  • yoda

    can’t read all. but i’d like to ask austin: why can’t we look at manus international games? he was mvp back in 2004 in athens, when usa had “dream team” of duncan, iverson, wade, bron etc etc… and manu won gold AND mvp then. then, when world championship was in indianapolis, 2002, argentina was second. what place was usa? so, please, you can ridicule euroleague all you want, but don’t do it to national teams and to WC and Olympics. best of nba american players play there too, you know.

  • http://GEE2.com GEE…What you say about my mama?

    I agree you shouldn’t look at the international games? Then you start bringing in to many things. Are we bringing in Tracy’s highschool games?

    Just keep it NBA.

    And in the NBA Tracy individually and 1 to 1 is and was the better.

  • dagwaller

    Gee, T-Mac has had Vince Carter and Mike Miller on his team. He’s also had Yao on his team for years, and though he hasn’t had the flashiest teammates in Houston, they’ve been one of the best defensive units in the NBA while he’s been there. His supporting cast has been fine.

    And now that he has two other stars, the Rockets are…still behind the Spurs.

  • fallinup

    Why not international games when that resume is outstanding? When TMac was chilling on the Toronto bench watching Vince out shine him, Manu was an MVP winning championships. Albeit FIBA championships but damn…to say they don’t matter is hogwash considering where these two came from.

    Tracy is 2 years younger than Manu but is in his 12th season.

    Manu is 2 years older than TMac and in his 7th.

    It took Tracy 12 years with younger legs to get no further than the 1st round of the playoffs.

    It took Manu 7 years to win 3 championships. Along the way, a few Olympic medals (1 gold) and some World Championships. Olympic MVP (I have no idea how you can discredit that!).

    You factor the 5 odd years where he was playing that “piddly” international game while TMac was riding the bench, and you can add a few more championships and MVPs.

    Fact of the matter is…TMac may have logged more NBA games. But Ginobili has logged in more time when you factor in ther FIBA stats. And considering all of the championship games he’s played…plus playoff games…Manu has played harder. WINNING..and thats the catcher….

    W.I.N.N.I.N.G.

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    T-Mac was a kid when he played with Vince.

    Mike Miller? That’s funny.

  • http://GEE2.com GEE…What you say about my mama?

    dag that is not saying to much to me on either of those comparing them to Duncan and Parker.

    Plus again Manu has to be a 3 while Tracy is the Alpha male of his squad. That is a big difference.

    You are correct and now the Rockets have a credible three and still aren’t playing to their potential.

    That sir, is a great reason of my frustration, cause I feel like the gm waisted a lot of Tracy’s better years in Houston by not surrounding him with appropriate talent.

    Still that is a personal issue and still the world knows McGrady ain’t what he used to be.

    Never-the-less throw all that team talk out and still head to head McGrady is still the better.

    You give Manu Vince and Mike and he won’t even do that well if just got to talk team stuff. So again outside of time and chance, Manu is none the better.

  • http://GEE2.com GEE…What you say about my mama?

    Ok done for the night…

    … possibly!

    Houston Up!

  • cavsfan

    I think if you put mcgrady on the spurs with duncan and parker for his whole career that he also would have three rings. And that he wouldn’t have missed alot of games. Manu is just a project that the spurs developed to play the way that they wanted him to play. Why do you think that he was drafted so late nobody thought he was going to be good until the spurs were able to mold him into what he is now. Just think if they got mcgrady and made him into a player like manu they would have at least six rings by now.

  • http://www.alltexasforums.com rangerjohn

    cavsfan you are pretty far off here, manu was drafted late, parker was drafted late, arenas, the list is LONG. go look up footage of manu outside the nba, he was always a baller (as his record shows)

  • dagwaller

    Mike Miller is an offensive option, former R.O.Y. and 6th man of the year.

    Vince Carter won his dunk contest when playing with T Mac.

    So no one tell me that these two are scrubs.

    Beyond that, Yao Ming has been playing with T for YEARS. Over that span, he’s been one of the best centers in the game, if not the best.

    I know that none of the players on those Rockets teams were great offensive players, but that should give T-Mac plenty of opportunity to flash his “playmaking” (gag) skills. Furthermore, I’m willing to bet that the Rockets have been among the league leaders in DEFENSE over that time. So it’s not like he’s had a bunch of scrubs. Just a bunch of guys that couldn’t create their own shot.

    So, again, T-Mac’s teams have been fine. He’s just not the catalyst to get them over the hump. This coming from a Rockets fan.

    Also, people telling me that Manu is the #3 on that team, while T-Mac is the #1: I would argue that Manu is really the #2, while T-Mac is the 1a, tied with Yao.

    If Manu and T-Mac traded places, the Spurs wouldn’t win as much, because while Manu was winning chips, T-Mac was gunning. T-Mac would never come off the bench, he would never sacrifice his game to the extent that Manu does so that his teammates can get involved (deservedly). Basketball is a team sport, and T-Mac has never shown that he can be on a great team.

  • fallinup

    @227

    Yet again, another hypothetical. Riddle me this…would McGrady have stayed with the Spurs or would he have left for a lesser team to get more shots and minutes??? He did that in Toronto. Why didn’t wanted to stay in Toronto with Vince in his prime? Imagine Air Canada and TMac in his prime playing with him….hmmm…what if….. So what makes you so sure your hypothetical scenario would end up with the Spurs with all things rings?

    In that same hypothetical scenario…Who’s to say that Manu wouldn’t have led the league in scoring on a shitty Magic squad in the Leastern conference???

    It’s because he doesn’t dunk as much or sumfin..isn’t it?

    Ahhhh..the what if’s.

  • fallinup

    Phew…I had some typos there. lol ^^^

  • Celts Fan

    Listen, with all due respect, FIBA ain’t shit compared w/ the NBA in terms of all-around talent. If TMac started his career there, he’d've done the saem shit Manu did. Switch the 2 of them and TMac does just as much if not more in SA and Manu doesn’t do as much w/ the crap teams TMac was saddled with. It’s a lot easier to do the shit Manu does when teams HAVE TO guard you 1 on 1 (or leave Timmy 1 on 1, which ain’t happening.) It’s just the truth. Manu’s going to the Hall for his all-around resume and I respect what he’s done, but he’s not as good as TMac and couldn’t do as much as TMac did as The Man. Dude’s hella good, but he’s not as good as TMac. Not a knock on Manu, just the truth.

  • Celts Fan

    like AB said, TMac was once a top 5 player, Manu’s never been the best player on his team, never had to face the constant double-teams and “we’re focusing our defensive gameplan on you” type shit TMac’s had to since leaving Toronto. I respect the hell out of Manu and dude is clutch as hell and I’d kill to get him on the Celtics, he’s just not as good as TMac, sorry…

  • Celts Fan

    let me also throw in that after Kobe and (after June/me being a homer) Pierce, Manu’s the guy I want taking a 3 w/ the game on the line, just I’d rather have TMac taking the shots for the other 47 minutes (and wouldn’t exactly be upset w/ TMac taking a late shot either, as Manu and the Spurs clearly remember, i’m sure!)

  • that’s whats up

    hey, is that Mike Bibby or Jason Biggs from American Pie?

    I can’t tell

  • Celts Fan

    *taking a shot (any shot, don’t know why I said 3. gotta stop smokin, damn…)

  • http://www.alltexasforums.com rangerjohn

    ok ok ok i am sooo tired of the whole “13 in 36″ crap. i live in houston hold seaosn tickets and so every other night i have to see that BS. go back andf look at the tap, the only reason tracy got that BS is because he was covered by fucking DEVIN BROWN! i mean devin was a borderline d-league so that “13 in 36″ crap has got absolutely nothing to do with clutch or skill but pour defense against a good offensive player.

    anyone seen what manu is doing right now against the hornets? 10 points on 57% shooting, 5, 5 and a block

  • Ian

    celts fan i rather have manu shoot all the shots not tmac
    and the spurs dont remember regular season games they dont care

    waddup gee

  • Celts Fan

    LIke AB said, NOW it’s actually a discussion, but in their primes, it’s not even close. Ginobili’s a hell of a #2 though for what that’s worth, but we’re at the big boy table here and he doesn’t have a seat.

  • http://GEE2.com GEE…Stop the Violence!

    You can try to say that Manu is a 2 but either way he is never a 1 and you can try to down grade Tracy to a 1a lol but the bottom line is he is and has been something Manu will never be and that is a 1 of some sort.

    See the thing that is unfortunate here is we never know what it would have been like for Manu carrying a team because he hasn’t reached that status yet. So for all those talking about the ifs on Tracy’s side there are some Manu’s way too due to lack.

    Again Tracy has exploits that he has done and really the most people can throw up is injury prone and not making it out of first round. Even with that he has things in his career you can point at for him as an individual that are very high accolades.

    Manu has team accolades and perhaps a few individual but nothing compared to Tracy in the L.

    You can try to put a round object in a square hole all you want but the bottom line is when you compare the two individually, and that is what this is, at the end of it all Tracy was an is better.

    I know it’s a harsh truth for some that a dude who hasn’t accomplished no ring or even out the first round is better but it is that reality.

    Manu is a third wheel and a great one and you may even want to make him a second wheel but 1 he has never been and is currently not.

  • http://GEE2.com GEE…Stop the Violence!

    Ian what up! Yea Manu has not the honor of sittin at the grown-up table yet lol.

  • weng santos

    This is what’s wrong with the NBA: most players want to look good first, win second!

    Would you rather be a losing superstar? Or a winning role player? Which scenario makes you “better”?

    Manu, before getting his extension, said one thing I will always remember: “I don’t want to leave the Spurs. I don’t want to be in a place like Atlanta as a free agent but then never compete for another championship in my career.”

    If TMac really wanted to win- and if he really could swap places with Manu and be just as successful- then why didn’t he go to the Spurs for less money after Toronto? Or why didn’t he team up with Shaq and Kobe as a role player in LA early this century?

    He’s obviously not averse to different locales, so why didn’t he go to a winning system when he had the chance?

    Fact is, TMac might have wanted to win, but he only wanted to win on his own terms- and that’s NOT a team-success-comes-first attitude. He wanted to win, but only if he was the star. His quest for excellence was conditional on his stature.

    See what I mean? Look good first, win second.

  • http://GEE2.com GEE…Stop the Violence!

    T-Mac

    Goodnight!

  • Rob

    I would want Manu on my team.

    I agree, T-Mac is a lot more talented. But talent isn’t all it takes. (More than enough players in the league to prove this.)
    Manu is just so smart, versatile, energetic as a player.
    Ok, he might not be the number one option on his team like McGrady, but who would be if when playing on a team with one of the best all-time,Duncan?!
    I’m sure Ginobli could also produce (obscene) numbers if he was on a team without stars like Duncan & Parker.
    But in the end, players are remembered for the ‘chips they won instead of some scoring title so… MANU!

  • Celts Fan

    @Weng, if they oculd ever stay healthy, Houston’s not exactly no where AND when TMac signed w/ Orlando, they locked up Grant Hill too, which woulda been a hell of a combo if Grant’s ankle ever recovered. It’s not like he jumped to the Bobcats. Bad luck and injuries contributed a part, but to say he just didn’t care about winning is just plain wrong. Learn something about ball, get off Manu’s dick, and realize that he’s just not as good as TMac. Dude’s sick, but Tracy’s better. If you really don’t think TMac woulda RAN SHIT in Fiba and as the #2 in SA, you’re smoking some serious shit and it ain’t green! that is all.

    like I said, we’re at the big boy table here and Manu doesn’t have a seat.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    @ Celts Fan

    You lost me at IF and woulda.

  • http://GEE2.com GEE…The Grinch and Scrooge are two of my homies.

    Hilarious.

    I am still waiting on Manu’s individual accolades that are so much greater than T’s.

    Time is tickin fellas.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    It’s all on what you allow in what you describe as better, GEE. As I recall..you said you’re not counting international game, remember? So bend the question more, please.

    I had a question that no one touched about 150 posts ago..and I’ll say it again.

    If both careers ended now..Who’s getting in the HOF first???

    So I know how it feels to have questions dodged…oh wait, it was dodged because the HOF don’t matter..it’s who’s better as in how you describe….riiiiight.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWt3-kPBQ4A&eurl=http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=179548284&messageID=6252245954&MyTokeniurl=http://i1.ytimg.com/ fallinup

    Imma quote post #5. And be done with this, for all we’re doing is being redundant now.

    “Talent a good player equals does not!”

    Parse it, chop it up…throw in some IF’s, but’s, coulda woulda’s….discredit this mundane aspect, but credit your mundane aspects…do whatcha want. The proof is in the pudding. And I’m still taking the WINNER.

  • JCARR

    TMAC!!!!!! he plays against starters… not like Ginobli who plays the 12th man on the opposing team.

  • http://www.myspace.com/fresh2def6 Talented

    i wanna say tmac by a lil..but i havnt seen him healthy in so long i 4got what that looks like

  • http://GEE2.com GEE…The Grinch and Scrooge are two of my homies.

    fallinup you been here a minute (w/ Dime) so I wanna say you were here when Dime did the “Is this person in the Hall” series.

    You know all the malarky that went with that. We could never decide the official criteria for what the Hall looks at to be inducted.

    So answering your question is a wee bit difficult. Still I will say if both careers ended now based on individual accolades, then Tracy. If you are going on what a person’s TEAM did then Manu.

    Now feel free to answer mine. In the NBA what has Manu on an individual basis done that is better than McGrady? I don’t see how I can make that any clearer.

    And imma quote post 232 and I still ain’t done with it, and this is even dealing with your question some also.

    “Manu’s going to the Hall for his all-around resume and I respect what he’s done, but he’s not as good as TMac and couldn’t do as much as TMac did as The Man. Dude’s hella good, but he’s not as good as TMac. Not a knock on Manu, just the truth.”

  • Ian

    jcarr
    manu plays vs the 12th man????? hahahahahahaha im sorry i thought ive seen him play against everyone when it counts

  • TMAC4PREZ

    This should end all the “if TMAC was healthy” – Jus check him out when he was fully healthy… UNSTOPPABLE!

    He had a few dunks over those boring ass Spurs too :)~

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VprmcraWsts

  • dagwaller

    I thought the object of the game was to win…?

  • dano

    Manu is by far the better, smarter, easier to get along with, and less dangerous player. Great, I get it, TMac can score, but i see alot of “when he’s hot” disclaimers out there. And everyone says put TMac on the spurs and he’d win. well i remember in the beginning of the season everyone just gave the rockets the western conference title because of the ron artest signing. so now its ron ron, TMac, and Yao. and where are the rockets? right in the middle, just like every other team TMac has been on. TMac is made of glass, and he’s not a winner. to everyone who says that ginobli is just a “cog” on the spurs, he has won a euroleague title (where im sure he was the best player on the team), an olympic gold medal (where the next best players was oberto and scola, and this was recently, when the US had NBA players on its squad), and multiple NBA titles.
    I saw it earlier in the posts, Ginobli is arguably the best foreign player. ever. Hall of Fame credentials.

  • Saul

    T-Mac by a country mile.

    Could Manu take a team to the playoffs with Stephen Hunter, Tony Battie, and Darrell Armstrong in the starting line-up to the playoffs?

    Hell no.

  • baron von faulk

    HERE’s THE TRUTH:

    With respect to Dirk Nowitzki, Manu Ginobili is the greatest International player of All-Time.

    In the NBA, Manu Ginobili is the MOST HATED player that there is, hence all you folks discounting his abilities with such disdain and no reality whatsoever.

    Manu Ginobili IS the best closer in the game today, better than Tmac (by a lot), and is equal or better than Kobe (not by much).

    Manu Ginobili has WON far more PLAYOFF and FINALS games for his team than Tracy McGrady ever will, and this FACT alone should end the argument once and for all.

  • http://GEE2.com GEE…so good you will slap yo mama

    baron sorry Tracy still got it.

    Manu’s TEAM has won more finals and playoff games but Manu has nothing outside of team accomplishments.

    The better leader, solo player and over-all player was and is Tracy.

  • baron von faulk

    Well our opinions are going to differ, but it is a fact that Manu has LED his team to more important victories, he should have had 2005 Finals MVP for example and torched Phoenix for a couple of wins that year and I’m sure there were others plus ’07.

    He has put the dagger in so many teams so often, as many or more than McGrady for certain, and he still gets no respect at ALL from the ignorant masses. If he were on the Lakers everybody would be all up on his jock!

    And I don’t think anyone can argue that Manu is the MOST REVILED player in the game, and so people trash him with extreme bias.

    I think we can agree that T-Mac will ALWAYS win a popularity contest against Ginobili, which is really what this entire post is about anyway.

  • http://GEE2.com GEE…Yall need some grits up north!

    I give you that last point and on a team aspect he has had his moments of brilliance. Still he is not the leader of even the number 2 guy on the team.

    I mean none of this could ever truly be decided until Manu is the sole leader of a team.

    So again you can’t compare the two really but on an individual basis T-Mac all day. Team accomplishments most def. Manu.

    This isn’t about team though, it’s about 2 players and what they can do. T-Mac was and is better!

  • Ian

    gee
    LOL individual shit comon
    if u base your argument on that then u HAVE to say richmond is better than jordan

    and please anyone could carry that magic team to the 8th seed in the east in the early 00s when the east was a piece of shit and u could get in with 35 wins

  • Ian

    “This isn’t about team though, it’s about 2 players and what they can do. T-Mac was and is better!”

    gee i hope that after that line u never call jordan the greatest ever

  • Bruno

    I read through most of this posts and to sum it up.

    The argument seems to be between those who are wowed more by individuals numbers (mcgrady) than those who value more the concept of winning (ginobili).

    A couple of comments. I love how people keep saying that .. oh well its hard to compare them because t-mac is not on his prime, while ginobili is. Well lets see, t-mac was born in 1979 and manu was born in 1977, last time i checked that makes manu the older of the 2, so mcgrady is the younger of the 2, if anything… between all his years as a pro and with all of the game he has had to play for the argentinean national team ,manu has a lot more games under his belt.

    The whole fuzz about mcgrady being the go-to guy and manu being a 6th man is also nonsense, because like someone mentioned…you put mcgrady with duncan on a team and tmac is no longer the go-to guy. Manu plays off the bench to keep both units balanced, but as well all know he has been playing starter minutes and is most of the time asked to take the last shot. He is humble and willing to take the role player tag for the good of the team, while Yao in Houston has to earn his 20 ppg, because he doesnt get as many touches as he should, because Tmac could never live on the team playing second fiddle, even if it meant they’d win more games.

    Manu has won a lot more by himself than duncan and parker combined, so its silly to think he is only good because he plays with them.

    I’ll leave you all with this… guys who can score in bunches like mcgrady are 1 in bunches. Every draft you’ll find 1 guy who at some point his career will develop into a great scorer like TMAC. But guys who can score, pass, steal, play d, play their heart out, drive opponents crazy with their hustle and just have a tremendous basketaball IQ are hard to find. And that is what you get with Manu. You do not need to score 28 ppg to make a difference in a game.

    Which is the better fantasy player: McGrady
    Which is the better player in reality: Manu

  • Yoda

    I was on the fence until I read Bruno’s post. The problem with the Spurs system is that it asks it’s players to be so unselfish, the stats never seem to quite add up to the wins. Even Tim Duncan, who is the greatest PF ever, doesn’t put up numbers that blow away a stat sheet…they’re just remarkably consistent and he’s very good at doing everything. Manu sacrificed fame and glory to be a sixth man because the spurs have no bench, and Popp needed his energy to boost the team in crunch time and tight situations. The second he hits the floor he’s all over the place…D-ing up, Passing, hitting runners, driving to the lane with reckless abandon, and icing games. I’m fully convinced if he was the main guy he’d be putting up numbers far superior to what we’ve seen, because no one has shown they can ever stop him from imposing his will on a game, last year’s ankle injury notwithstanding (as an aside, i feel the same way about Tony Parker. now that he has a J, he’s evolved into an unstoppable machine-but the Spurs system keeps stats from getting inflated). Keep in mind the Big 3 also play fewer minutes than any stars in the league, because Popp wants them fresh for the playoffs.

    T-Mac is just a me first scorer who’s never won anything, and likely never will. He has all the talent, and NONE of the intangibles. Not sure how you measure that? the NBA is filled with superior talents who just couldn’t get it done. He’s technically “better” than Ginobili, but Ginobili is a much better player, and has meant more to the teams he’s been on.

  • Daniel

    Manu can retire tomorrow knowing that he’s allready a lock for the Hall of Fame (if you think that I’m kidding go look information about the BB hall of fame)
    And I think it’s fair to say that is pretty much impossible for McGrady to get there at this point.

    So, like it or not Manu will go down in history as the best player, and that’s just pure justice.

  • Daniel

    And please people stop overating scoring titles.

    It’s not so hard to average 30 pts taking 24 shots per game. I bet at least 50% of the NBA players could do that.

  • joel blades

    Is this a joke? McGradys about to be a starter in the allstar game when hes been out since the first month of the season. He’s one of the faces of the league. Ginobilis not even the face of his own team. Hes still good but McGrady wins hands down.

  • shane

    ginobili is slightly better
    spurs went out of the play offs 1st round this year
    reason ? ginobili wasnt there
    manu came into the nba at age of 25 remember while mcgrady entered around 19,20 so mcgrady had a far better headstart
    while manu had 2 learn the hard way. mcgradys had fa rmore injuries and while ginobili is 3 and a half years older. ginobilis 3 point shooting is better and tracy mcgrady is almost 6 ft 9 while ginobili is 6 ft 6 so gives tracy a height advantage. ginobili is better .by a millisecond :)

  • shane

    one more thign your forgetting ..look at the minutes tracy mcgrady played through his career while ginobili played under 28 minutes this year and play the 6th man posistion quite alot ;)

  • AB_40

    I wonder if Tmac comes back strong like grant hill a few years back will people like him again like with grant or are they gonna hate on him regardless since greatness was expected out of him and this houston team

  • Seuss

    Ginobili doesn’t always have Duncan and Parker to defer the attention as the top reserve. He’s a reserve so that the team doesn’t fall off when Parker and Duncan need rest. I still think T-Mac is more talented but Manu is a proven winner.

  • Tom Sawyer

    In the first place the NBA is a league full of talents. .
    Talent alone Mcgrady wins it. .
    But putting up the talent???. .Ginobili is way ahead of Mcgrady. .
    Yes Mcgrady can put up a statline like kobe does, but can he carry his team beyond that 1st round nightmare? No!
    Can Ginobili carry his Argentinian team against the Americans? Yes!
    Maybe Mcgrady should demand for a trade like kobe does.

  • The Augustus

    What has McGrady proven except that he is overrated? He’s missed so many games and his team has actually done BETTER without him (thanks to Yao Ming).

    With Ginobili, it is the opposite. Ginobili brings the hustle and passion to the game. He lights up the floor when he plays. He’s a clutch player that the Spurs go to in dire straits (2008 Western Playoffs-end of Game 1 vs. Phoenix Suns). When Ginobili plays the Spurs are much better! If the Spurs had had a healthy Ginobili this year, they would have made it out of the first round for sure.

    Ginobili’s little-known international record is amazing. He has proven his talent time and time again. Remember when he led Argentina to a gold against a baffled U.S team? Looks like he can do something without Duncan and Parker eh??? The gold medal is only the tip of the iceberg ladies and gentlemen.

    Manu is a proven winner like some people said above. TMac is a proven bench warmer and until I see him actually play a game NOW, Ginobili is the better player. Who cares about hypotheticals and out-dated stats?

  • biboy

    MANU is the man..

    guys like mcgrady, lebron, kobe and d-wade are just talented athletic guys.. they can score lots of points for the team.. but they don’t contribute to the team at all.. lebron is the cavs, kobe is the lakers, d-wade is the heat and this sucks.! i mean, these guys don’t play as a team.. they’re just playing for their own stats..

    with manu in the spurs.. he knows what he’s role in the team.. he plays in the bench coming out with terrific performances and contributing to the team.. basketball is a TEAM game not an INDIVIDUAL game and that’s how manu seperates from these guys..

  • kristian

    yeah.. i totally agree with post275..

    manu is a special player.!

    GO SPURS GO.!

  • emman

    can you imagine that manu ginobili is just a 2nd round pick draft at no. 58? players like manu (as what Bruno says) see post264 is special.. TMAC is a great athlete, no doubt.. but manu is a great basketball INTELLIGENT player and that’s what seperates him from the rest of the guys..

  • aerokid240

    Ginobili cant lead a team? He needs parker and TD?

    Can anyone reasearch Team USA’s roster when they played in the olympic finals against argentina. MANU pwning TEAM USA in the OLYMPICS (and winning mvp) > than any accomplishment in the NBA. Olympic MVP > T-Macs life.

  • Duncan83

    Guys.. how about TMAC going to spurs?? TMAC + TIMMY + PARKER.. super Sub: Ginobili..

    Come on.. Both of them are great indvidual and both of them fulfill their role in their best possible ways..

    TMAC fan! stop whining.. Supporting cast is of cos important.. opportunity is also an important factor of the game!! Do u think Jordan will win any title w/o Pippen and Rodman?? why didn’t Marlone, Stockton, Hornacek win any title??

    In the modern game, you do not need a leader in the team.. you need good players to complement the tactic of the coach!! One great PLAYER win a game but one great TEAM win a championship!!

    TMAC may have wealth of talent (well, each yr new young talent is flocking into NBA).. Eventually, players are only remem by the number of title they have.. At least Manu have some rings on his finger and a longer resume!!

    TMAC supporter, have you ever wonder why TMAC goes from Toronto to Orlando then Houston? If TMAC have not left Toronto.. He plus Vince and an additional of a good center.. wun they be a force to reckon wif?? He moved becos of $$$!!

    And if you really wan to compare TMAC and MANU.. yeah, it unfair.. its of different class!! Do you wan to compare their wages?? MANU is always value for his money!!

  • http://waterfallsup@yahoo.com red man 75

    I wish I had seen this much sooner so more of you people that think T Mac is soooo good could rant and fume and call me nanes. In a nutshell Manu when healthy beat THE WORLD almost single handedly to win the olympic GOLD medal against the NBA’s best .T-Mac just disapears come crunch time ( the post season ) END OF DEBATE a better question is who is better Manu or Koby ? Manu has almost always been the Spurs third option. when playing int. ball he is the first opt. and he can more than handle it.

  • jlnobi

    publish this article in argentina and see what happens in the comments.

    Y’alls fools. I love Mac, don’t get me wrong, but how exactly do you picture him getting the job done in THE FINALS the Manu did over, and over, and over? Not getting butt-hurt-injured against Kobe, ever? Think of how freaking often Mac would have gone down, grabbed an ankle or whatever, when plowed in the lane by Wade or Bron or hell even Dirk? woulda happened OFFFTEN.

  • jlnobi

    that said, manu or kobe is dumb. and that’s coming from a guy who went to see number 50 play on his 12th birthday.

  • 92021SpurMD

    mcgrady never played on a real Olympic team….. america’s qualifiers doesn’t count whatsoever…

  • heartbreaker85

    manu has won EVERYWHERE. europe, olympics, nba, while being a major contributor.

    tmac hasnt even played in the 2nd round of the nba playoffs.

    end of discussion.

  • Guru

    Manu no doubt (he was the 2005 finals best player) although the NBA gave TIM another MVP of the Finals, MANU was the main reason they won that RING…

    He`s the go to guy not TIM…

    If TMAC was palying with Spurs they woulndt won these rings cause he is a SELFISH PLAYER who needs to shot the ball 20 times to get his stats…LOW IQ player, who turns a good team into a losing team…
    A media star (like SMARBURY / AWALKER /QRichardson…