What can you say now?
I’ve come to gloat. After the events that transpired last night — Tony Parker being selected to another All-Star team, then raining hot-buttered misery on Steve Nash and the Suns in the nightcap of TNT’s doubleheader — I have to revisit the argument that I started last summer and will continue into the forseeable future if need be. And if you missed THIS, THIS or THIS, you know the drill:
Tony Parker is (still) better than Deron Williams.
First, let me reiterate that I love Deron’s game. I’ve been a fan of his since he was at Illinois, and I’ve already written two major features on him for Dime Magazine. Last spring, when I featured Deron in Dime #41, I was the main one in the office advocating him for the cover. (Which ultimately didn’t happen.)
But that said, facts are facts, numbers are numbers, and the truth is inescapable. Deron is not ahead of Tony Parker at this stage in his career. Deron fans will point to his higher assist numbers, the fact that he made All-NBA 2nd Team last season, that he’s the best player on the Jazz while TP is the second-best (maybe third-best) player on the Spurs. And that’s it. That’s all they have. Unless they want to bring up Deron’s ‘08 All-Star Skills Challenge title.
Meanwhile, Parker’s argument is bolstered upon three NBA championships, one Finals MVP, three All-Star selections, an All-Rookie 1st Team nod — when he was 19 years old and QB’d the Spurs to a first-place finish in their division — and most importantly (after the three ‘chips) a career resume that includes high-profile head-to-head W’s over every single top-flight point guard in the game today. Chauncey Billups? Parker beat him in the 2005 Finals. Chris Paul? As good as he was in last year’s Western Conference semis, everyone forgets that TP was giving it to CP just as bad, and at the end of the day, walked out of CP’s building with a Game 7 win. Allen Iverson? 2007 first round. Jason Kidd? 2003 Finals. Nash? Parker owns him like Don King owned Mike Tyson. Baron Davis? OK, now we’re reaching on that “top-flight” status. Every elite PG has seen TP get the best of them. And of course, Deron got beat in the ‘07 conference finals.
And before anyone starts the ridiculous, “James White has a championship ring, does that make him better than Dominique Wilkins?” argument, don’t fool yourself into thinking Parker is some benchwarmer. He’s been the starting point guard for the best team of the last decade since the moment he stepped into the League (again, as a TEENAGER).
As I’ve always said, in cases where the talent level is so close — i.e. Tony versus Deron — you have to swing the vote with accomplishments. The object of the game is to win, and TP has beat everyone put in front of him, including Williams. And if it’s not winning, the other object of the game is simply to be great. Heading to his third All-Star Game while Deron is still waiting for his first coronation, it’s obvious the argument can only go one way.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Ian says:
oh shit i knew this was coming but hey austin i agree
u know whats retarded that when people say parker isnt the best player on his team neither would deron is he was traded to the spurs and parker would be the man in utah.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
fallinup says:
C’mon with the “But he has Duncan on his team!” excuses. I can smell em on their way.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Ian says:
fallinup
people want parker to play without manu and duncan but dont mind that deron has booz millsap ak , they want parker and scrubs vs deron with his full squad.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
doc (i like kobe AND bron) says:
Yall got it.I will only resume this argument when you know who bounces.I love TP game but when I look at game I look at who would I rather not face.And D-Will is the one.That is all.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Spliff 2 My Lou says:
I was on the fence about your argument the first time I heard it but D Will fell off the radar this year so I’ll have to agree. D Will is still the future (along with CP3 and D Rose)but Parker has solidified himself as the second most important PG in the NBA this season after Paul. I know Deron has been injured this season but he just hasn’t impressed me this year. I can remember multiple time this season when I’ve seriously been impressed by Tony Parker’s play. I cannot say the same for Deron.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Big Sia says:
Good article
But i think you’re side stepping the Tim Duncan question. Would the Spurs be even more dangerous with Duncan-Manu-Deron?
I’d still take TP over D-Will for a 7 game series though.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Big Sia says:
55-10 MAN!!!!!
January 30th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Spliff 2 My Lou says:
Doc post #4 makes a good point. If I had to choose between the two I would not want to play against D Will. But strangely enough I would rather play against the Jazz then the Spurs. I think D Will will be back at full force next season but this season Parker is having the better season.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Duke says:
It’s the whole TP is on the Spurs thing that people’s hating on. And the whole Parker doesn’t get enough assists argument is dumb as hell. The Spurs pass it until someone gets an open look and that it’s usually the 3rd or 4th pass after his initial pass that gets guys open.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Big Sia says:
Wait… ur choosing to play against Tony Parker, the guys an assasin..
January 30th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Ian says:
big sia we always said theres no prob sayin deron is 2 the prob is when people say we are crazy when we say parker is 2 like there is no argument. but hey like u said tp for a 7 game series.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Spliff 2 My Lou says:
Damn a lot of good points being made. Big Sia makes a good one too. Any point guard might be dangerous with Duncan and Ginobli on their squad.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Sanpitch says:
You guys can say TP is better. If I am to pick first on the playground, I would still take D-Will over TP.
The All-Star thing kind of loses credibility if D-West made the team this year.
I would take Deron Williams over Tony Parker.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Ian says:
spliff doc
really vs parker i think ull have a harder time tryin to play parker than deron but thats just me
January 30th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Austin Burton says:
@Sanpitch — About the All-Star thing: However, no one even made a big fuss that Deron didn’t get in. They were more upset that Millsap didn’t make it. Like I said in the Hit List, Deron was snubbed from the list of snubs.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Sanpitch says:
Guess the question is what would YOU rather have:
This season
20.5 ppg 6.5 apg 0.9 spg or
16.9 ppg 10.2 apg 1.0 spg
Career
16.3 ppg 5.5 apg 1.0 spg or
15.5 ppg 8.4 apg 0.9 spg
January 30th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Spliff 2 My Lou says:
@Ian post #14
Well both of them would destroy me but if I was a point in the NBA I would think it would be easier offensively against Parker. I could overpower him in the post. Defensively it would be difficult to stop his quickness and craftiness. D Will would be hard to play against on both ends because of his strength and long range ability.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
Ian says:
actually sanpitch u cant go wrong
January 30th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Ian says:
spliff ok i can go with that i didnt think u going at the other guard i just thought u guarding parker hehehe parker is a harder guard but he might be easier to go at.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Sanpitch says:
@15 I guess it depends on where you heard about it from.
I live in Utah and there was a little gripe about it here, but we all kind of assumed he was out. It was kind of bunk though because we all considered him out because of injuries, but he has only played in 3 games less than Parker as of right now.
Here in Utah we kind of assumed no one would get in on the Jazz, but when I saw David West instead of Al Jefferson I got pissed.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Ted says:
D-Will is a better point guard than Parker:
http://www.squidoo.com/DeronWilliams
January 30th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
aj says:
I’d take both these guys over CP3.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Spliff 2 My Lou says:
AJ is on crack.
January 30th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
Spliff 2 My Lou says:
Unless he means both D Will and CP3 vs. Paul. Then maybe it’s about even.
January 30th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
Spliff 2 My Lou says:
My fault I meant D Will and Parker vs. Paul but I’m kidding of course. Or am I?
January 30th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
Ian says:
spliff
u can make a case for all three as the best its not that crazy or is it?
January 30th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
control says:
This argument is kind of funny. People talking like TP wouldn’t have had championships without Tim Duncan are correct…but it don’t take away from the fact that TP still played his role.
If you watch the Spurs’ offensive sets, you can very clearly see how their entire offense is based on one of two plays:
1) Give ball to Tim Duncan, he will either score if it’s single coverage, or pass out when help defenders (one or two others) collapse.
2) Tony Parker will penetrate and cause defenders to collapse (unless Amare is help defender, then he will spectate). TP will then pass out of the help or continue driving for a score.
When the ball is passed out, it is swung around the court causing defenders to scramble. The guys on the Spurs always hit the open man, resulting in anyone who can shoot the ball decently nailing open jumpers and feasting off of TD and TP.
Tim Duncan is the main driving force behind this, without him none of this will work because there’d be almost no focus on the middle like there is now, and closing out on the shooters would be very easy. Tony is a good point guard for this system because he has one of the quickest first steps in the league, if for some reason Timmy can’t get the ball, Tony is the one who creates the initial chink in the defense’s armor.
For people who rely on stats to back up their points, if basketball were like hockey and there were two assists given out per basket, TP would probably have double or more of his current assists. Most of his passes setup the swing pass.
Tony also has one of the highest FG% for a small guy ever. He also gets more points in the paint than most big guys. That in itself is pretty impressive.
Deron is a great point guard, but it’s not like he plays with scrubs, though most of his guys seem to have some major injury bugs. He’s going to average more assists than TP because he isn’t setting up swing passes, he’s setting up finishing passes that are created via picks, screens and slashes to the basket by other players. He gets those guys the ball and does a damn good job of it.
TP brings stuff to the table that Deron never can be physically able to do. Deron brings solid skills that TP might or might not be able to do. Right now TP is better…in 5-7 years when TP loses his quickness then Deron will still be rocking his Jason Kidd-like game, and you could probably say he’s better than TP then.
January 30th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Big Sia says:
West over Jefferson was a joke.
Jameer/Rashard over VC was a joke.
but enough with the allstar shit
status has nothing to do with it right now; both TP and D-Will are going to be discussed in the top-tier PG’s for a while. Hopefully we’ll see something come playoff time.
January 30th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Blue says:
TP is more accomplished now, but D-Will will ultimately end up the better PG.
January 30th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
Sanpitch says:
I guess I watch more of Deron Williams than Tony Parker so maybe I am a little biased. But Parker came into the league with speed and his teardrop and that was it. Pop, was scared having TP run his team. I can remember many games where Pop went off on Parker. He has matured and has earned Pop’s trust.
Parker came in not being able to hit his pecker with a handful of sand. His outside shot was non-existent.
D-Will came in with ice in his veins (remember the NCAA tourney when he hit that 3) and had a more complete game.
If the game is on the line, I would trust D-Will more than TP. D-Will has proven he can hit the shot from 15 feet and out.
Parker has only picked up an outside shot the last 2 maybe 3 years. Oh hell, last year TP shot 25.8% from 3.
Everyone is writing the Jazz and D-Will off because of injuries and they aren’t winning right now. The end of last year, I bet 75% of people would have taken D-Will over TP.
Point is, just because the Jazz aren’t making much noise (other than when another player gets injured) don’t write D-Will off.
If your team is down 1 and you need someone to take a 20′ jumper to win, who you taking??
January 30th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
Smooth says:
austin man ?????????? , parker didnt beat billups in the 05 finals if i remember it was billups toasting parker up and it was manu and duncan who were ballin for the spurs, jkidd outplayed parker in the 03 finals etc. end of story parker won becuase hes lucky enough 2 be on a team with tim duncan
January 30th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Ian says:
shit control that was good
January 30th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Spliff 2 My Lou says:
I think I made up my mind. I’m gonna say Tony Parker is the better player and Deron Williams is the better point guard. I hope that is a sufficient answer.
January 30th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Ian says:
sanpitch
if i need a play i can go either way if i need someone to take it to the basket is parker now just because he can hit a shot better than parker doesnt mean heas better. parker doesnt take threes so that percentage means kinda nothing hes hitting them this season.
January 30th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Ian says:
lol spliff good answer
January 30th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
the cynic says:
D-Will is stronger, more disciplined, a better one-on-one defender, a better help defender, shooter, passer, rebounder, free-throw shooter, and has taken his team to the Western Conference Finals. Not Bad
Parker is faster, more creative, arguably the best in the league at finishing at the rim, a better(meaning proven) crunch time player, and most importantly for the rest of his career(another 10 years?) he will have more chips then 99.95% of league
Ultimately D-Will is an All-Terrain Vehicle and Parker is a sports car, so it just depends what your team needs. That’s what the NBA is all about, finding pieces that fit together or compliment each other
January 30th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Sanpitch says:
ian
no it doesn’t mean he’s a better player, but it shows he has more of a complete game. he can take you inside or out and he can man up on d.
parker is by far the better penetrator.
so i guess it depends on what you base defining a good player off of.
January 30th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Sanpitch says:
cynic
you said it all right there. do you want an all-terrain vehicle or a sports car?
January 30th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Ian says:
sanpitch
depends on what u need lol.
cynic deron isnt a better rebounder but all the other things u r right on both
January 30th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
Sanpitch says:
’bout the same on rebounding w/ parker having a slight edge.
career wise you are comparing
3.1 rpg vs. 2.9 rpg
so i guess take that out of the argument
January 30th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
control says:
Spliff
You are correct about TP’s 3point shot, it ain’t pretty usually…but you are over looking how almost every other scrub that joins the Spurs has a HUGE increase in 3pt % as soon as they step on the floor. Boner, Mason Jr and Manu all get free wide open shots directly or indirectly because of what TP does (TD of course being main driving force of that, but TP contributes).
January 30th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Sanpitch says:
i shouldn’t have used the word “penetrator”. scratch that from post 37
January 30th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Ian says:
post 42 LOL
sanpitch yeah thats what i meant rebounding is a wash
January 30th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
the cynic says:
Deron can box out 2s and 3s, battling for his rebounds while Parker gets his by being quicker to loose balls on long rebounds. The numbers don’t tell the whole story(CP is a god awful rebounder but you can’t tell by the numbers). Again it matters what your team needs, but from what i’ve seen D-Will is a better, more versatile rebounder
January 30th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
dil says:
Tony Parker also does all this while playing only 33 minutes a game!!!!
January 30th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
Vinny says:
if i had 20 seconds to go in a game and was down 1-i want the ball in parker’s hands over any other pt guard including paul.
He is a lethel combination of speed and quickness-Tim Duncan on his team doesnt make him better it makes the team better! He doesnt need a 3 pt shot as much as d-will because he gets anywhere he wants to go! imho
January 30th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Ian says:
shit vinny where u been?
January 30th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Vinny says:
my job blocked me from posting, but i’m back!!lol.
January 30th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
rangerjohn says:
ok here is the biggest problem i have with allmost all of the “d-will over tp” people, i hear a lot of d-will and cp3 are the “future” of the league but they all over look the fact that tp is what 26 right now. he is not even to his prime yet and getting better. he will ALWAYS better d-will barring something drastic
January 30th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
doc (i like kobe AND bron) says:
Ian dont think I dont like TP.Im like u but reversed.I just like D-Will better.Its like that question Bron asked on the other post.If u could take 4 PG’s and put them on the Wiz right now what order u think u would go CP3,D-Will,and I like TP but I’ll take Rose for his future then TP.Thats me man.I ball,Im a PG and I study PG’s,and D-Will is a PGs PG.But yeah u dont see me hate on the Spurs at all.I like watching them over a llot of teams I just know who owns that team.The dude who made Roger Mason and Bonner players.See my whole thing is if Timmy makes everybody better benchwarmer become rotation players(Mason,Bonner,,Vaughn, etc)rotation players become good starters Avery johnson and dudes like that.Average players become good.Good players become great.But thats my only argument that I say.Tim makes good players look great.But I think he’s a top 3 PG right now yeah,just not better than the 2 who made 1rst and 2nd team nba last year.That makes sense to me.I think if u put TJ Ford on the Spurs Pop would get his ass in line and he would do what Tony do.Not as good but u know what I mean.
January 30th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Amar says:
parker clearly has the way better resume . . . duh Austin. Then again, Derek Fisher looks like an nba player next to guys like kobe and shaq . . . fish didn’t look so hot in utah or golden state. parker would be a star on any other team, but playing with duncan (top 15 all time player?) and manu (dude has a gold medal, because he earned that medal) isn’t that bad.
boozer is a flawed player, if you can even call him a star. okur is a streak shooter. AK is used all wrong by his coach. sure, those three guys are talented, but parker’s crew are proven winners — in the nba and internationally. both are good. right now Tony has the resume over D-Will.
but you may be forgetting how great d-will played in the WCF two seasons ago. how good was he? at the end of it Eva was saying “D-will” in bed when having sex with Toni.
January 30th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Ian says:
doc
i know what u mean and i can go with all that u said i just said i can make an argument for either player without people jumping out like im crazy. sorry i thought i was u that hater parker got mixed up with the nics here. but sayin rose whos only played half a season is a bit far fetched.
January 30th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Sanpitch says:
Austin you also forgot to add Williams winning a Gold Medal in Beijing. He averaged about 20 min/game.
January 30th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Big Sia says:
Why are the spurs so slept on in the mainstream media?
January 30th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Big Shot BOB says:
Damn Control…I didn’t know you had it in you. You actually know about basketball. Nice to see considering some of the other comments I hear from people on this blog. Finally someone using actually basketball knowledge to back up his comments.
January 30th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
control says:
Big Shot BOB
Thanks, I ain’t 100% blind hate and trolling…only about 90%
I forgot to mention in that book that I typed up there that it’s the Spurs’ strict discipline in following their game plan that makes them so boring to watch. Which is probably why they almost have a Bill Gates type of image with the media and fans…they are ugly as shit, but you can’t argue with their success.
January 30th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
firephantom says:
Haha, this article was hilarious. You should write satire more often.
January 30th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Ian says:
big shot like post 57??
January 30th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
K Dizzle says:
@ post 30
Kobe……lol
I like Parker’s game and I like DWill’s game so I don’t really care for this argument. I’d actually like to see them in the same backcourt like CP and DWill did in the Olympics. That would be murder
January 30th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
Lee says:
@ 42
It’s ok to say Parker is the better penetrator, he’s married to Eva !!!
January 30th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Lee says:
@ AB
If you want to cause a stir, do an article that TP has been better than Iverson for the last 4 years !!!
January 30th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Austin Burton says:
@Lee — Or I could say something slightly critical of Kobe Bryant.
January 30th, 2009 at 7:17 pm
Drink the Haterade (KB24 Chip 09) says:
@ 61, One question, who has led their team to the chip and has the rings and the Finals MVP… I’ll give you a hint, it aint AI
January 30th, 2009 at 7:17 pm
Drink the Haterade (KB24 Chip 09) says:
@ AB– And what would that be? That LBJ is better? Yeah right…
January 30th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Ian says:
drink that he cant win without shaq … no?
January 30th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Drink the Haterade (KB24 Chip 09) says:
Ian– this year he will
January 30th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
Lee says:
@ AB
Ha ha .. true !! But there are a lot of Iverson fans in denial !!
@ 63
Totaly agree my friend !!
January 30th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
Ian says:
ok we lets wait till june then when timmeh gets fitted for his thumb ring yeah i said it hehehe
January 30th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Austin Burton says:
I said once that Kobe may not be the inhumanly competitive fire-breathing dragon the media makes him out to be, and everyone got all over me about it.
January 30th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Kevin says:
Wow!
AB and Control deserve major kudos for their posts.
Well done!
January 30th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
dagwaller says:
Still agree, Austin.
January 30th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Red says:
This blog/post always gets the most HITS… Best PG in da game..or whose numba 1. I remember at da beginning of the season, people were sayin Boom dizzle, Nash were better than TP right now. OR NASH….NASH was da best. lol.
1 CP3
2 TP
3 CBillups
4 DWill (For right now)
5 D Harris/Rose (next year will be fighting for that 2-3 spot)
January 30th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
blah says:
fuck dat it’s a team sport. if you’re talking about a player by player comparison, you can’t use team accomplishments in the comparison. you can only use individual ones.
January 31st, 2009 at 12:48 am
johnsacrimoni says:
Y’all know my position so I won’t argue it. I will just add that I don’t personally care for CP3 or TP but I respect the hell out of them. Right now CP3 is I think the best, followed by D-Will, then TP. Here’s another question: In my opinion CP3 is Isiah and D-Will is Kidd (better shooter, lesser rebounder), but I can’t really come up with a good comparison for Parker. I’m talking PGs the last 20-25 years. Any thoughts?
January 31st, 2009 at 1:08 am
bookkwormmaster says:
Spliff 2 My Lou says:
I think I made up my mind. I’m gonna say Tony Parker is the better player and Deron Williams is the better point guard. I hope that is a sufficient answer.
I cosign whith that
January 31st, 2009 at 2:11 am
Ian says:
john
a little kj in parker no??
January 31st, 2009 at 8:54 am
weng santos says:
Was it even a question?
I mean, TP has 3 rings! And it’s not like he rode on TD’s back, I mean, has has a Finals MVP too!
Deron is good and all, but excellence should always result in achievement. Always.
You can’t be better or best until you actually dominate your discipline. It’s that simple.
January 31st, 2009 at 11:28 am
doc (i like kobe AND bron) says:
Nobody on the Spurs have ever lead that team to a final except 21.
January 31st, 2009 at 12:38 pm
kevin k says:
If you are saying TP > DWILL, then you are saying TP > CP3 because DWill > CP3 which I totally agree.
January 31st, 2009 at 8:36 pm
Jack says:
OMG,How tall these guys are!If they want to date,maybe they only can find tall girls from some searching sites,as far as i know: tallloving.com .cute, hot , talented… whatever u can come up with…LOL
January 31st, 2009 at 11:25 pm
Borgs says:
Burton,
I can say that you’re a thorough lesson in the futility of arguing with the foolish. I’m withdrawing from this so-called debate until Parker’s own coach decides your favourite French hip-hop star has the nuts to guard Deron for more than a few minutes a game.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:10 am
hooper5013 says:
TONY PARKER AINT NO POINT GUARD!!! HE AINT BETTER THAN DERON WILLIAMS!!! It’s not close. Who is the better shooter? Deron. Who is the better passer? Deron. Who is the better defender? Deron. Who is the better ball handler? Deron. What facet of the game is Tony Parker better at? Oh I know winning championships along side one of the 5 or 6 greatest bigs in league history, and another all star gaurd who is better than him also. Look TP is a scoring gaurd with an improved jumper, and good ability to get to the basket! He is lightning quick and he is a delight to watch in the open court. He is just not as complete a player as Parker. I mean Seriously Avery Johnson won a title as the PG of the spurs is he better than Deron Williams too? Fuck outta here. Deron Williams is every bit as good as CP3…CP3 ain’t got no trip to the western conference finals, nor does he have Deron’s stats in the playoffs? He ain’t beating Deron head to head? How is he better?
February 1st, 2009 at 3:35 pm
johnsacrimoni says:
Ian
yeah I can see that comparison
April 23rd, 2009 at 8:47 pm
jakester says:
CBill scored 143 points, 44 assists, 9 turnovers and 35 rebounds in that ‘05 series.
TPark had 97 points, 24 assists, 22 turnovers(!) and 17 rebounds.