Nobody Knows How To Choose the MVP
There are three schools of thought choosing the MVP. (1) Pick the guy who did the most with the least. (2) Pick the best player on the best team. (3) Choose the guy who should have won the year before.
With his dude clearly in the hunt, Mike Brown has decided to align himself with one of these philosophies, making the early push for LeBron.
“I think your team has to win,” Brown said. “At the end of the day, you understand that some people are going to say, ‘Well, what’s their record? Where are they sitting at in the conference?’ And you understand how that is a factor. I have not looked at LeBron’s numbers, but his numbers are probably the same this year as they were last year and the year the before, and the talk is he is the leading guy right now. The main difference in my opinion is where our record sits.”
Brown might as well just come right out and said, “If our record is better than Miami’s, you gotta take LeBron over Dwyane Wade.” But you (and Brown) know damn well that if the Cavs were fourth in the East, he’d be saying something completely different, probably arguing that the guy who does the most with the least needs to take home the hardwood. The truth is, nobody knows how to make the choice.
It’s almost better that way though. I’d hate if the NBA organized some corporate committee to sit down and deliberate on the criteria for choosing the best player in the League. It’s vague for a reason. And this applies to all sports. Look at the NFL – their MVP bounces around from being the best player on the best team (Tom Brady in 2007) to the guy who puts his team on his back and carries them into the playoffs, even if they’re not top dogs (Peyton Manning in 2008).
Would you like there to be a set way to judge the NBA MVP?
Source: Real GM
March 9th, 2009 at 7:40 am
FK says:
The whole ‘criteria’ thing is turning retarded. Eff the schools of though and vote on the Most Valuable Player.
I get a vote and think its the scoring title champ. You think its the guy who averaged 25 (sitting out 4th Q’s as his team piled up 63 wins). That dude thinks its the guy who got screwed over last year. Add up the votes and crown a winner.
If the ‘right person’ doesn’t win he gets the sympathy vote next year.
The biggest load of $hit is teams saying they ‘deserve’ multiple guys in the all-star game because of their record. The ASG is to reward individual success, and there’s already something to reward you for team success – the god-damn playoffs.
March 9th, 2009 at 7:42 am
Austin Burton says:
There’s also the unwritten “He won it last year” rule that only gets broken if you have another monster season, if your team does even better in the standings, or if you’re name is Steve Nash.
March 9th, 2009 at 7:52 am
danksy says:
its a hard decision
wade has done the most but would he be putting up those number in a team with more stars? Kobe has to do it with gasol, bynum, odom getting their stats 2, as does Lebron with MO, and Z.
Still i think if the heat make the playoffs it has to be d-wade, they were the worst team in the nba last season, wade has changed that.
Im a laker fan but it has to be WADE MVP
March 9th, 2009 at 7:52 am
TJ says:
I think you should vote for the player who is having the best season. Record does matter somewhat though, because stats are only good if they help you wins games. Team record can help put the stats in perspective.
I feel the same way about the multiple players in the All-Star game. You shouldn’t get in just because of a good record (or good stats), but the record can put your stats in perspective. Jameer Nelson wasn’t having that great of a season statistically, but his stats were a big part of the Magic fighting for the NBA’s best record at the time. On the other hand, Durant was scoring a ton of points, but it wasn’t helping his team win games. He also was killing his team on defense (I’ve seen a few article floating around about his terrible +/- and how the Thunder give up a ton more points when he is in the game).
March 9th, 2009 at 8:02 am
srb says:
danksy instead of Z you might mean delonte..
at this point kobe, wade or leebron deserves it, and no matter who you pick someone is going to cry that one of the others should have won it. two out of the three are going to get snubbed for the MVP regardless of who actually wins it.
March 9th, 2009 at 8:11 am
springz says:
I think people are over complicating things. The MVP is just that – Most Valuable.
It should be looked at from the point of view where you take away a player from a team and approximate how well that team does.
In which case, you’re looking at Lebron, Wade, CP3 for MVP.
March 9th, 2009 at 8:29 am
St.Rays Baby says:
It’s a two man race between Kobe and Lebron; as much as I loveee D Wade and the numbers he has been putting up there is a pecking order and he isn’t a top the totem pole yet. I think the trophy needs to go to Kobe; he has been arguably the best in the L since 02-03 and has one MVP to show for it. David Stern has accommodated Nash and Timmy so it’s only right he shows Kobe da God some love!(Damn Right I’m bias).Just like King James rookie season when he got omitted from the all star game he is going to have to wait his turn. If Cavs finish a top the league then maybe we reconsider this but for now in the words of Ron Burgundy “It’s Science!!!”
March 9th, 2009 at 8:40 am
Banga says:
Most Valuable Player to your team.
In that Case it has to be Wade.
Everyone has seen what a healthy D Wade brought to miami this year.
March 9th, 2009 at 9:19 am
ticktock6 says:
To me, you can’t keep saying the Lakers from the first guy to the twelfth guy are the deepest team in the league, and then put Kobe in the argument. You just can’t. LeBron is playing the same as he always plays, yet he’s MVP because his team is actually winning?
If you took CP and Wade away, we know what would happen. I saw it in January when CP went down, and it was terrible basketball to watch (granted, 1 or 2 other starters were also injured). And we saw how bad Miami was last year. Just because he’s not tops on the scoring list doesn’t mean Chris Paul isn’t having a statistically brilliant point guard season, exactly the same or better than last year. But I guess guys like that won’t get MVPs unless it’s a weak year.
Don’t tell me I’m biased. Of course I am. He’s my guy.
March 9th, 2009 at 9:33 am
karizmatic says:
Yes I would…Personally I think it should be the consensus best guy period. It seems to me they basically through this out the window because the same guys would be getting it year in and year out ie Jordan in the 90s, Shaq from 99 to 2004 or so. I guess this boils down to whoever you think is the most dominant player, which is still vague. For my taste I thought it should have been LBJ last year and I think it should be LBJ this year. Though D Wade is making a good push. I think some consideration has to be given to how a team would be if you took that player off of it.
Therefore having a great supporting cast might actually be a hindrance to getting the MVP, unless that player is still the best in the league bar none. Like MJ with the 72-10 Bulls.
March 9th, 2009 at 9:36 am
karizmatic says:
In short just ask everybody who is the best guy in the league? Whoever gets the most votes is the MVP.
March 9th, 2009 at 9:45 am
budz says:
put d-wade in a cavs uniform and i doubt if they will be chasing for the best record in the east.
now put bron-bron in the miami team and i bet ya that he will give the heat a better record than they currently have now.
and honestly, do you think any of the top contending teams (spurs, celtics, lakers) are scared of miami and wade?
im sure LBJ gives them the creeps!
LBJ is king. stop arguing.
March 9th, 2009 at 9:52 am
Sanpitch says:
I hate the whole argument that the MVP has to go to the best player on the best team. It’s weak.
It needs to go to the best player regardless of W’s. That’s why this year I think it has to be between Wade and Lebron. Wade is the total package this year. His defense is ridiculous (he’s a top 3 for DPY) and his offensive game is crazy.
Last year it was rightfully between CP3 and Kobe, with Kobe winning and this year it should be between Lebron and Wade with Kobe a very close third.
If I had a vote I would give it to Wade right now.
March 9th, 2009 at 10:05 am
the rocket cat says:
I think there are two ways of defining MVP.
1) Who is the most valuable player to his team? In this case, I think you have to look at +/-.
2) Who is the most valuable player overall? If you could choose one player to build a team around, but only for one season, who would it be? I think here you might want to look to something like Dave Berri’s “Wins Produced” metric.
March 9th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Citizen B says:
WAIT TILL THE PLAYOFFS ARE DONE!!!
There is a regular season MVP and a Finals MVP, why not count the playoffs along with the regular season in the MVP category? That’s when most of the drama happens anyway.
March 9th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Spliff 2 My Lou says:
I’m with springz (post 6) and banga (post 8). The MVP is the most “valuable” player to their team. With that being said my top four in order right now are
1. Wade
2. Lebron
3. CP3 and Kobe are tied
However, if the Cavs get the top seed out east then Lebron gets the nod over Wade unless the Heat are a 2nd or 3rd seed then Wade gets it.
Kobe can take home the MVP again if the Lakers stay the top seed out west and the Cavs do not take the #1 seed and Miami stays out of the top three seeds.
The only way I see CP3 getting the MVP is if the Hornets get either the first or second seed in the west. My argument here is that before the season the Hornets were picked by some to be the best team in the West and legit title contenders. I just don’t think (so far) that they have lived to their potential this season. The Hornets are stuck in the pack with Houston, Denver, Utah, Dallas and Portland. They need to separate themselves from that pack and join LA and San Antonio for Chris Paul to get legit MVP consideration. And just so you know I thought CP3 should’ve been last seasons MVP.
March 9th, 2009 at 10:19 am
The Answer says:
+/- stats (Roland Rating according to 82games.com)
LeBron +25.0
Wade 18.4
Kobe +13.1
As much as people think, the Cavs are still really not that great of a supporting cast, which is evident by LeBron’s +/- stats. Mo’s the only other All-Star (and we saw how easy that was for him to get in) and everyone else is pretty average. LeBron makes a lot of people look good who would otherwise be average bench warmers on other teams (see Anderson Varejao)
MVP: LeBron
March 9th, 2009 at 10:30 am
ticktock6 says:
To throw CP’s numbers in there, he’s at +17.5. And according to Dave Berri (for the person above who thought Wins Produced might be a good measure):
“Paul – after 41 games in 2008-08 – has already produced 15.9 wins. In 2007-08, only ten players produced more wins for the entire season (and one of these was Paul). If Paul continues at this pace in 2008-09 he will finish with 31.8 Wins Produced.”
March 9th, 2009 at 10:31 am
GQue24 says:
Your not a laker fan if you say Wade should be MVP. Kobe is the MVP regardless of what any other player does statistically. For years when Kobe had the best stats of anyone and a 7th seed in the best conference the West, he was never better than 3rd place finish for MVP. The reason was his team was not winning enough games to be a serious contender. Last year he had best record in the West and played normal Kobe ball and won the award. this year he is playing normal Kobe ball again and has the best record not only in the West but in the entire league. This is what haters used to penalize him for. Now the best player in the world has the best team in the NBA with the best record. What else does he have to prove. He should be winning his 4th MVP this season but it will likely be his 2nd only.
March 9th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Bittu says:
MVP should be a combination of few things. It should be the person who gets the most of out of his teammates. Don’t punish Lebron or Kobe for having better teammates than Wade and don’t punish Wade for having lesser caliber teammates than Kobe or Lebron.
The Candidate also has to be able to put up good/great numbers for the position he plays. If you are a PG, you better be up there in assists. 2 guard better be up there with points and players down low better be up there in rebounds and blocks.
Another thing that gets looked over is being able to play defense. Yes I know we have DPOY award for that but an MVP isn’t an EPOY award either. He should be able to play both side of the game, which is why I was against Nash for MVP few years back. Now whether he is a stellar team defender or a great man defender, this criteria shouldn’t be looked over like it has been in the past. I am not asking MVP to be the best defensive player but he definitely shouldn’t be the worst one.
Last thing should be, how would a team fare if they took the candidate off the team. If Wade wasn’t in Miami anymore, would the drop off in win column be 25 games? If Kobe was off from Lakers, would they still contend for top 2 spots or would they be struggling at the bottom to get in the playoffs.
Thats how I think it should be but as we have seen last few years, thats not how it actually works out. I believe its a two man race between Mamba and The King. The reason Wade gets left out is the same reason Kobe got left out in 05-06 and Lebron got left out last year. Not enough team wins.Whether we like it or not, this is one factor (so-called Steve Nash Factor) matters more than anything nowadays, whether we like it or not. Kobe had put up 35/5/5, Lebron had 30/7/7 last year. 29/7/4 for Wade this year. Wade has the weakest of these three seasons and If they didn’t win it, Wade isn’t winning it this year either. FYI, both Lebron’s team and Kobe’s team those respective year had 45 wins, which is about the same amount Miami is going to win looking at the tough schedule they have left.
It might break down like last year between CP3 vs Kobe but this year it is be Lebron vs Kobe. Whoever gets home court gets the nod. A pretty sad way to do it, but thats how it has been done so far and thats how it might be decided again this year.
March 9th, 2009 at 11:24 am
Sanpitch says:
I don’t care how they are doing it as long as someone wins that “should” win.
So far I haven’t had too much beef with the system and they way they pick the MVP. Only major disagreement I have had was when Nash won over Shaq’s first season with the Heat. I thought Shaq should’ve won, but Nash had a good argument.
So as long as Lebron, Wade, or Kobe win it then I am cool with it. Now if some dark horse (ala David West’s All-Star selection) comes in and wins it, then I disagree with the system. But overall it’s pretty good.
If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
March 9th, 2009 at 11:26 am
Sanpitch says:
CP3 would be one of the dark horses I described in post 18.
His chance was last year, not this year. Last year I think it was between Kobe and CP3, this year it is not.
March 9th, 2009 at 11:41 am
BROGDEN says:
Wade’s playing LIGHTS OUT with rookies and washed up vets.
March 9th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Big Shot BOB says:
Who cares the best award in the league is DPOY period.
March 9th, 2009 at 11:57 am
creamio says:
If you’re going to give it to the guy with the best stats or the most valuable to his team, then Lebron should have about 3 MVPs by now.
His stats were better than Wades are this year two of the last three years and he took some serious scrubs to 50 win seasons…
However you also have to look at wins, the MVP has to be a valuable player that is dominating the stats on an elite team.
March 9th, 2009 at 11:59 am
creamio says:
If you’re going to give it to the guy with the best stats or the most valuable to his team, then Lebron should have about 3 MVPs by now.
His stats were better than Wades are this year two of the last three years and he took some serious scrubs to 50 win seasons…Holy shit, his team had Sasha Pavlovich starting and Eric Snow.
However you also have to look at wins, the MVP has to be a valuable player that is dominating the stats on an elite team.
March 9th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Jimslam says:
I think it’s pretty simply spelled out – “Most Valuable Player” obviously is intended for the player being paid the most money.
That’s Kevin Garnett.
http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm
March 9th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
K Dizzle says:
I’m throwin DWill’s name into the convo. Dude came back early from injury to keep the Jazz afloat without Booz and AK47 and now the Jazz are the hottest team in the l. If he maintains the pace he’s on and the team keeps winning, he’s gotta get up into the top 3
March 9th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Ian says:
austin you are right that the voters dont usually go for the same guy twice that why i think shaq and timmy should have more than the 3 they have combined and nash one less of the 2 he has.
but the mvp has to be on a contender and who suffers the most without him the lakers might make the playoffs without kobe but no way the spurs miami and cleveland make it without their top players since miami isnt a top team that leaves bron and duncan for me since the spurs have had the team with manu and parker they have the same record as the lakers and duncan kept them in the playoffs with 4 dudes pop picked up from the street on his way to the game.
duncan is my choice i know hes not going to win but i dont know why people dismiss him i guess his finals mvp this year will have to do.
March 9th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Dagomar says:
By all three measures, Lebron’s the MVP. I’ll add a fourth: he’s also the best player in the league. The award doesn’t actually mean much anymore, but it’s still Lebron’s to lose.
March 9th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
K Dizzle says:
@ Ian
Without Kobe, Lakers don’t make the playoffs. The west is too stacked for a team led by Gasol to beat out the other 8 teams. The reason the Lakers are so good is because asol doesn’t have to be the man, he can just play off Kobe. I appreciate your confidence in my team, but a lineup of Fisher, Ariza, Odom, Gasol and a healthy Bynum isn’t that much better than Portland, Dallas or a healthy Phoenix.
This year is the changin of the guard. Parker might get more mvp votes than TD cuz he’s won without the other two and put up ridiculous numbers
March 9th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
SagJism says:
This problem began years ago but most recently, Nash never should have won MVP but a. KB24 was busy in Colorado. Nowitski should have never won it, see a. So part of it is pay back because I thought CP3 should have won it last year, he was phoenominal but he didnt have the best record. So by that theory, since the lakers are the best KB should have it again, but for some reason much as I love KB’s game, I think dwade is this years MVP, at least for me he is even if he only gets the popular vote..
March 9th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Ian says:
k dizzle
a memphis team led by gasol made the playoffs 3 times and had homecourt advantage and that team u mentioned is better than the suns and just in case i used the word MIGHT to avoid this but u did say that the lineup is a team that can compete with portland dallas and the suns. a duncan less team has less chance of getting in specially with the manu problems. i just posted my opinion on why kobe isnt that high on my list way to good a team compared to the other contenders. parker did win a couple of games but with a team that had the role players clicking duncan won them with the dudes sucking all over that court.
March 9th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
SagJism says:
karizmatic post #11, They did ask most NAb players in 2008 in the beginning of the season and 85% said it was Kobe so by you own admission, Kobe should be MVP? thats the logic you used! I have said before, Kobe is my guy and I am a Kobe fan who gets all over LB fans but this year and trying to be fair and non-biased ( We are all biased in some form) Iwant Kobe to get it for all the years he should have had it but dwade is the MVP this year to me. Only because miami would not even be an NBA team without him. Cavs, Lakers would not do any damage in the playoffs without Kobe or Lebron but they would at least have a chance to make the playoffs, miami without dwade is the worse team in the league. That enough for me to give it to wade but Kobe deserves at least 3 MVP’s for his body of work since 1999.
March 9th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
SagJism says:
and in the next 5 years, CP3 should get at least 1, he almostaveraged a 3double last year and is right on target this year.
March 9th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Ian says:
sagjism
i could go with wade based on that but the last part that kobe deserves 3 because of his work since 99 then how many do duncan and shaq deserve?
March 9th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
SagJism says:
And GQue24, you are retarded and have no integrity, dont tell me I am not a Laker because I think dwade should get the MVP. I live breathe, bleed and die the purple and gold but not so much that common sense runs out the door. Yes, Kobe was f’ed over for a few years but what , since he was I am going to f’ over dwade, no, f to you on that. This is basketball and if you dont know anything know this, this is a game of integrity first and foremost.
March 9th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
SagJism says:
give credit where credit is due, even in the throuhs of injustice to our guy (Kobe).
March 9th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
karizmatic says:
SagJism,
According to my logic yes that would make Kobe MVP, if he is in fact consensus best player in the league he should be MVP. I would just disagree with that assessment, but if they openly said look we asked all these guys who was the best player in the league and they came out with Kobe I could respect that process. But looking at this comments board I don’t think that would be the case by the end of this year.
As I said before I thought it was Lebron last year (took scrubs to 50 wins and avg. 31pts 8 rebs 7 assts. To me that’s the best player in the league). I think again this year he is the best in the league, but D Wade is making a hell of a push.
Oh and GQue24 you don’t have to support Kobe for MVP to be a Laker fan…I am a Laker fan too, since the days of Magic…and I didn’t support him for MVP last year and I don’t support him this year. Furthermore what does support for a single player have to do with support for the team? What if Kobe left next year? I still like the team regardless of the players on it…that’s called loyalty.
March 9th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
BROGDEN says:
My List of True MVPS for Contenders:
DERON and CP and TP and WADE
The above 4 have been the most consistent, arguably the best players in thier respective conferences. They have played injured, they’ve played with new personnel, they’ve played without thier stars, they’ve played with inconsistent teammates. And they’re playing thier teams into the PLAYOFFS for sure. The above 4 are truly MVPS.
Out of that bunch I think Wade, best with less, will win it.
When you throw all that other criteria into MVP you get a list that looks sumptin like…
LEBRON, best on east best and KOBE, best on west best.
Then after that group, it’s still arguably other “mvps” for contenders…for example, DWIGHT (mvp of best road team) and ROY (mvp of rising young squad) plus I could name some more.
Between WADE, CHRIS PAUL, DERON WILLIAMS, TONY PARKER, LEBRON, KOBE, OR DWIGHT…I personally think it’s DWAYNE WADE.
(sidenote: these are the faces of the NBA today, i just realized that)
Who do I think will get it? LEBRON.
March 9th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
doc says:
@K-Dizzle-Did u really mean it when you said TP should get more votes than Timmy.Thats terrible.He won 2 or 3 games in a week and that makes him MVP.It got silent as shit on the Tony talk with that stinker against Cleveland.A real team.By hiself.My MVP candidates.1.Bron-All that BS yall spitting about take Wade off his team,take Bron off this team of average scrubs and they would be worse than OKC.2.Kobe-He the most fundamental scorer in the world.All his moves are practiced and perfected,his teams the shit out West,and he’s a fucking problem.3.Dwight-A fucking monster who carries his squad with D and rebounding.4.D-Wade-His team aint no contender but u gotta have one dude who just there for numbers.They keep bringing up his team record from last year,but none of those dudes play.They keep bringing up rookies but they upgraded at every position this year.They record is what it should be.5D-Will and CP3-These dudes is just joined at the hip to me for every fucking discussion they in.6.Timmy-Just because hes Timmy and HE IS THE ONLY REASON THE SPURS AINT THE CLIPPERS.And as long as Timmy around,people can throw the Spurs in the team to look out for talk.
March 9th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
karizmatic says:
Brogden,
You really don’t think LBJ fits your criteria?
March 9th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Ian says:
the hate doc the hate
you know what was the talk during the suns game that if deron belongs in the parker and paul group which means even they consider parker to be up there. and no even without timmy the spurs arent the clippers i mean who is really.
tim is their best player but parker is a top 3 pg even if u dont like him.
March 9th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
karizmatic says:
Tony Parker is the second best point guard in the league…period.
March 9th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
SagJism says:
karizmatic: good points.
March 9th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
SagJism says:
At karizmatic: good points.
March 9th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
BROGDEN says:
KARIZMATIC – I think Lebron could rightfully get it. He fits the criteria.
But I have him lower on my list than Wade, Deron, Chris Paul and Tony Parker…because he has an all-star point guard who conveniently takes over games when he’s struggling and/or shut down.
With that thinking I’ll illustrate why I think Wade ultimately gets my vote:
Chris Paul is ultimately axed b/c he has an allstar forward
Same with Tony Parker
Same with Kobe
Lebron has an allstar point
Deron is still alive.
Wade is still alive.
With that said, I think Wade is more MVP than Deron is because there are better elements in place at Utah that allows Deron to will them to victory.
March 9th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
karizmatic says:
@ Brogden
You think Mo Williams is really and Allstar point guard? How much of his success is really predicated on LBJ attracting that much attention?
Other than that I suppose your logic is sound.
I would say
LBJ
Kobe
Wade
March 9th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
K Dizzle says:
@ Ian
I basically agree with your point on the Lakers as long as you did say might make the playoffs. The fact of the matter is that nobody is afraid of the Lakeshow without Kobe and not to shit on Memphis’ playoff squads, but the West was weaker then. Lakers dynasty was over, Denver, Houston, Utah, New orleans, Portland weren’t as strong as they are now. Not to mention Grizzlies were rollin out JWill, Gasol, Mike Miller, Battier, Posey and a “still had a future” Stro Show coached by Fratello who always maximized his teams in the regular season.
@ Doc, you misremembered by post. I said Parker MIGHT get more votes than TD, not sayin that’s how i would vote, but the voters always come out with some shit that throws everybody off. I wouldn’t vote for Tim, parker or manu cuz they all cancel each other out, but I’m not stupid enough to think the spurs would be shit without TD.
@ Karizmatic – when you throw out a statement like Parker is the second best point guard, you should explain how he’s better than DWill or CP3,…which he’s not. The problem with Parker supporters is that they seem to come out after he destroys Nash and the Suns and say he’s #2, but nobody said shit after 15 and 4 in a 20 point loss against Portland and 11 and 6 on 3 of 16 shootin against Clev. Fact is he’s not a good a shooter or defender as DWill and he’s not as well rounded as CP. Nothin wrong with being #3 in the world…