Pat Thinks I’m an Idiot
ShaqMaybe six weeks ago, this thought would have never crossed my mind. But in the last month or so, Shaq has looked so dominant – playing in both a molasses-slow Terry Porter offense and in Alvin Gentry‘s reinterpretation of Mike D’Antoni‘s offense-on-speed – that I proposed the following question to Pat this morning: Hypothetically, if you could take Shaq or Dwight Howard for the rest of this season, and this season only, who would you want?
Pat thinks I’m an idiot.
He might be right.
I was going to narrow the hypothetical parameters so that the choice between Supermen would be limited to a seven-game series. That way, those who argue against the Diesel wouldn’t be able to use Shaq’s shaky record in back-to-back games against him. But I’m not going to try to shift the boundaries to favor O’Neal.
I think that there’s a legit debate for both guys over the remaining 22 games of the season. But I’m taking Shaq.
No matter what ESPN or any other media outlet puts on their front page about how Dwight won the duel last night because he outscored Shaq, they’re wrong. Howard put up 21 points (50% FG), 8 boards, 2 steals, 1 block, and 5 turnovers. Shaq put up 19 points (69.2% FG), 11 boards, 3 steals, 2 blocks, and 4 turnovers. Most importantly, six of O’Neal’s boards came on the offensive end, five of which he pulled down while Dwight was in the game.
Though Shaq outperformed Howard on the glass – and made a greater overall impact on the game on both sides of the ball – last night’s stats shouldn’t be primary determinant for this debate. Instead, look at what the Diesel was able to do to Dwight physically. He wore the 6-11, 270 lbs. heap of muscle down. Honestly, I was amazed to see just how much stronger Shaq is than Dwight. Even Howard admitted it in the post-game with Cousin Ahmad and the two stooges, Gary and Chris.
GP asked Dwight, “Who’s the real Superman?” and here’s what Dwight had to say:
“That’s for the people to decide. I just want to go out there and play my hardest. I was a little frustrated with some of the calls that were going against me tonight. I don’t know. We didn’t really get a chance to go at each other, because both of us was in foul trouble. So I did my best, he did his best. He’s a lot bigger than I am, so I just decided to use my quickness and my jumping ability.”
Therein lies difference No. 2. Shaq runs his mouth left and right, telling everyone who wants to listen that he’s better than Dwight, that he’s “not impressed” by anything that Dwight does. He’s damn hard on the youngster. And how does Howard respond? He talks about how he “respects his elders.” If I’m trying to win, and win right now, I don’t want a guy who is going to take a verbal punch in the mouth and step back. Shaq is confident that he can bitch Dwight around on the court and through the press.
Widening the scope of our lens beyond this game, it’s worth pointing out that Shaq is now second in the League (behind Dwight) in dunks. Maybe that plays into the hands of those who support Howard, but here’s why I bring it up. It shows that O’Neal has been consistent. We all know what he’s capable of when there’s something on the line: after being called out for a sub-par performance against LA, he hung 45 on Chris Bosh and then came back with 33 and 7 to beat LA three nights after PHX’s loss.
Down the home stretch of the season, you want an offensive weapon on the block who you can trust. At this point in their careers, I trust Shaq far more than Dwight to make the right play with the ball in his hands. (1) Shaq is patient. The Diesel basically invented the “re-post” – when a big man catches the ball on the block, dishes it back out to his “feeder” and digs his heels in to get better position for a quick pass back. Dwight looks like he’s always panicking with the rock. He does this all the time: he’ll catch the ball with his back to the basket, twist his head both ways even though he’s not really seeing what’s on either side, and then arbitrarily decide to try his running hook or his face-up game. (He’s 23 years old now, so he’ll obviously improve at this, but we’re talking about right now…).
* As a quick aside, this criticism might set off a cascade of “It’s Patrick Ewing‘s fault” comments. The truth is, I was amazed to watch these two guys work together during the pre-game against the Knicks – a team that was going to guard Dwight with David Lee – and everything that they did was 12-15 feet from the basket. Pat had Dwight shooting Duncan-esque bank shots, and working on that clod-hopping one-dribble spin-back move. It was terrible. I wanted to go out there myself and work on 7-10 foot baby hooks and power dribbles with Dwight.*
The other big concern about trusting Dwight on the block is that he’s not a good post passer. This comes with experience, age, and coaching. Though Sonny Vaccaro would be upset with me for saying this, it’s a direct result of not playing in college. Dwight has never had to pass the ball out of the post, and thus he’s never learned. His career 1.4 assists per game is a direct result of Orlando being a good spot-up shooting team. Rarely does Dwight make a pass to a guy in a tight crevasse of the D.
Pat still thinks I’m an idiot.
If you could have Dwight or Shaq for the remainder of the season, who would you choose?
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March 4th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Dilf says:
first ninjas!
March 4th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Dilf says:
I’d take Shaq. But only for this season. He’ll always be a laker in my eyes.
March 4th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
Big Sia says:
You made a great, great, great point.
well written, well argued.
and yeah man, its probably a close call.
but ur an idiot.
Also depends completely on the type of team you have around either of them. Right now dwight has the better team (system wwise), thats why he has a nice record. its all about the supporting cast in a series anyways, especially with a big man.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
hucklebuck says:
I would go with Shaq based on experience more than anything.
Because of how Shaq is with the media, it is easy to go against him on the court, how he gives no one praise, especially Howard, as he did with Robinson, Olajuwon, and Ewing back in the day.
On the court however, Howard is just not as polished.
I agree with the comments about him “not seeing” when he looks in the post. lastnights game showed how his court vision is stilled tunneled. he would take a dribble to the lane and get stripped or bothered by a guard up top who came and gave a half help.
Until Shaq retires, he is the choice for the center on my team for the rest of the season, especially playoffs.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
GEE...Call me "Poppi GEE" says:
For the remainder of this season, I say give me Shaq just because he has the respect of the refs more so than Dwight and also the knowledge of the game and knowledge of using his power to get the most from it.
I agree about the college aspect too.
Still Dwight is the combination for the future. Speed, Power (albeit not as much as Shaq) and still growing.
Shaq for now and perhaps 1 or 2 more years. Then it’s Dwights world. Why didn’t you all do this in a we argue you decide type deal? I want to hear Pat’s side.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
john says:
shaq is a liability, u can plan on abusing him in the playoffs.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Blue says:
i’ll take Shaq. he plays with more heart (when he’s motivated). as a heat fan it pisses me off to think what Shaq and Wade could’ve done this season!
FUCK!
March 4th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
YOUNGFED..."Forget a recession for me its just recess." says:
Dwight allday. A lil Bias there Andy
March 4th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
hahns says:
with one bucket to go/one rebound to grab/one block to make- id choose dwight. Yes, shaq is a MUCH more skilled offensive player, but athletically he just cant keep up with dwight and to think he can keep up these phenomenol games throughout the season/playoffs, youre deluding yourself.
yes, shaq has had a mini renaisance, but you still have to go with dwight. dwignt has size and athleticism, so shaq is one of the few ppl who can keep up w/ him bc hes so big and strong- but agains the rest of the league dwight is big/strong enough
March 4th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
SayItAintSo says:
Agreed. You are an idiot. Shaq has done this every season where he beasts it for a few games.
I think you’re a fool for attacking Dwight about his ‘respect for his elders’.
I can’t believe you would use Dwight’s respect and Shaq’s lack of respect (for everyone) as fodder AGAINST Dwight.
I don’t think you can so certainly claim that Shaq is stronger than Dwight either. Shaq weighs 60 more pounds and I highly doubt it’s all muscle. He simply throws his fat around better than anyone in the leage.
You might trust him more so in an end game situation that Dwight but that’s because he is over a decade older! Over 22 games for the entirety of each game, you’re a damn fool if you choose Shaq over Dwight.
Like you said, better stats, more double doubles, 22 games…Dwight is going to give you more and a lot more at that and he’ll also do it with respect. Shaq was funny in the 80′s now he’s just old and egotistical.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
the rocket cat says:
I think Aaron Nelson, the Sun’s trainer, should get MVP this year. Bringing Shaq back as a force in the league was an impressive feat.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Quedas says:
Two points:
1) Kinda shocked at how many people are saying they would prefer Shaq… I mean, I like the Big Fella, but seriously?! Just picture this: Imagine the Celtics, the Lakers or the Cavs if they had Shaq. Would they be guaranteed champions? Well… not so much. Now imagine the same if they had Dwight… Are you kidding me?! People, come on, get real.
2) Shaw is second in the league in double-doubles?! What?! How has nobody else find this stat to be completely absurd? Actually, Dwight’s not even the first anymore – David Lee is leading by one (48 to 47). But Shaq? He’s 15th, with 23 – tied with Luis Scola. From what deep escavation in your ass did you come out with that stat?!
March 4th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
GEE says:
testing 1, 2
March 4th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
GEE...Call me Poppi GEE now says:
testing again
March 4th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Claw says:
For only one game and one game only I could possibly see taking Shaq, only if he had at least two days rest.
But cmon for a season or playoff series it is Dwight, younger and a much better defender mostly on the pick and rolls. Shaq shows flashes but he hasn’t been consistent, imagine Howard on the Suns with the running game going, they’d be sick and not be on the outside looking in on the playoffs.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Poppi GEE says:
Shaq for perhaps this year and next but Dwight for the long haul.
The knowledge that Shaq has now hopefully Dwight will gather. Still Shaq never had the speed Dwight has and Dwight has better hand-eye to me. So down the road it’s Dwight’s world. Still Shaq’s power and his ability and know how to use that power are what sets him apart now.
You all should have done this with the we argue, you decide deal. I want to hear Pat’s take.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Andrew Katz says:
Quedas,
I’m sorry I swear I heard that stat last night on the post-game. I edited it out of the post.
- AK
March 4th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
GEE...Call me "Poppi GEE" says:
Oh thanks for letting my comments on now.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
SJ says:
This late in the season i’d go with Shaq, since Phoenix is still battling for the playoffs. This is from a fantasy perspective, though.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Blue says:
when your offense is flat, and you can’t get anything going…you can just throw it in to Shaq and something good will happen (he’ll get doubled and he can kick it out, he’ll get fouled, he’ll get two). same can’t be said for dwight.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Andrew Katz says:
Sorry to be an ass, but of every argument for Dwight right now, I think that Claw’s is the best.
Dwight is a far better shot blocker, and he’s able to get out and challenge on screen-and-rolls, while Shaq isn’t good hedging at all.
@ SayItAin’tSo
- I wouldn’t care if Shaq looked like Butterball, if he’s able to use his fat to throw Dwight around, he’s still throwing Dwight around. Who cares the reason?
You wrote, “You might trust him more so in an end game situation that Dwight but that’s because he is over a decade older! Over 22 games for the entirety of each game, you’re a damn fool if you choose Shaq over Dwight.”
Right. I do trust him more, and a part of it is because he’s over a decade older.
Why is it so foolish to choose Shaq again? Because he’s older? Because he’s MUCH better at using his body?
- ak
March 4th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Quedas says:
It’s cool Andrew. Lol, now I feel kinda bad for being so agressive. Sometimes talking in Internet forums is like driving in rush-hour traffic – it really DOES bring out the SOB in each of us… Still disagree with you on this debate though :p
March 4th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
K Dizzle says:
lol @ post 10
good post
I don’t know if you an idiot AK, but I don’t get the rippin on Dwight and Pat cuz they workin on extendin his range. That’s why it’s called practice. Just cuz they playin D Lee don’t mean they can’t work on dude’s game. What they supposed to do? Throw lobs at the rim or practice dunkin cuz knicks don’t play d?
Let’s get this right tho. The only reason Shaq been killin is A) EVERYBODY kills the Raps bigs and B)EVERYBODY kills the Raps bigs. If you got a big man who can step out and shot(Yao, Z, Pau, Duncan, KG, etc) I’d rather have Dwight than Shaq cuz Dwight got the quickness to get out and recover to the rim. If Bargnani was hittin the 3ball, Shaq doesn’t get 45 cuz he gets worn out on the defensive end.
You might be an idiot…
March 4th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
K Dizzle says:
sorry.
lol at post 12
still laughin
March 4th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Andrew Katz says:
KDizzle great point about Dwight and Pat – it could have been just a one-time thing. It’s unfair of me to say that they should be working on something else, when I don’t really know if they’ve been working like crazy at his inside game, and just wanted to mix it up that night.
HOWEVA, I will say that Dwight needs to spend a much larger chunk of his time working on his power game. He’s stronger than every other big man in the League except for Shaq. His body is perfectly suited for a power game. Why doesn’t he ever try to overpower dudes with his back to the basket?
I just want him to play to his strong suits.
- ak
March 4th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Spliff 2 My Lou says:
I still think Dwight would be better suited and thus reach his full potential if he was playing power forward full time. If the Magic had a legit starting center to take some pressure off Dwight this question wouldn’t even be debatable.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
SWAT says:
if you pick shaq for the rest of season and if you’re battling for the playoffs like phoenix is…you have to consider tht shaq doesnt play/or doesnt like to play in back to back games. thts fine maybe in the east and if your record is like the cavs but in the west that is hurtin’ the suns. if the suns dont make the playoffs this year do you think they are gonna look bk at the games shaq couldve played and be like “man im glad we have him”. Prolly not…they would have wished they had someone like dwight
March 4th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
K Dizzle says:
AK
Dwight’s power game reminds me of Shaq’s power game….in high school. They looked the same and they played exactly the same. Then Shaq spent 3 seasons at LSU and had one of the best coaches in Dale Brown help him develop a post game. Even Stanley Roberts had one good season in the l with a great back to the basket game. The kids who missed out on college ball are still one step behind the Duncans and Shaqs, Ewings, Olajuwons no matter how much talent they have, with the exception of Al Jefferson, who has one of the best low post teachers in McHale cuz he didn’t have those moves comin outta high school either. Dwight’s athleticism puts him above Chandler, Curry, Bynum, Oden, Bogut, Kaman and every other young big, but the guys who went to college actually have a semblance of a post game.
I might be an idiot but I don’t remember Patrick Ewing backin defenders down as much as he was shootin 12-15 footers. Dwights needs a Hakeem or a Mose Malone tutorial. Real irony is that the best teacher for Dwight WOULD be Shaq….
March 4th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
kevin k says:
@ -Andrew Katz
it amazes me how you can be a writer for DIME sometimes although I actually agree with your argument for SHAQ. Do you bother watching Orlando games? No matter how strong or fast you are as a big man, you can’t just “overpower dudes” with his back to the basket. With the zone defenses and banishing of illegal defense, the D can harass the post players. Dwight being a poor passer and his lack of awareness has limited his game, but he still puts up #s because of his physical gifts.
There is a reason why Shaq can still somewhat do what he does. He is much stronger, has better footwork, post-moves, better passer, more awareness, and experience than Dwight. It’s not power game that Dwight needs to work but his post-moves and footwork. Also he still can’t use his left hand or shoot with it either.
March 4th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Heckler...formerly 'yallallreadyknow' says:
katz–
you are an idiot. shaq is just the new flavor of the month right now, so you’re on the nuttsack.
i bet 15 games from now, your tune will change….
March 4th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
kevin k says:
Also the way the league is being played today, developing a 10-15 footer would be essential.
Also it’s not power that makes Dwight dominant, it’s his speed and explosiveness for a big man his size that makes him so dominant. If Dwight had a microfracture surgery like Amare, he would still have strength but would lose the agility and explosiveness thus he will be less dominant alas AMARE. God thinking of what Amare could have been if he never hurt his knee is frightening.
March 4th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Ian says:
andrew
u praise shaq for talking out of his ass and bash dwight for being smart and respectful ???? Hello? Hello? Anybody home? Huh? Think, McFly. Think!
true shaq never gives praise to anyone even when the admiral , hakeem , and pat were droppin 30 on his ass. but anyways he only talks shit when he knows its a peaceful dude (howard) or a pussy on the court (bosh). i would love to see the suns play the spurs in the playoffs and have shaq tell duncan hes a pussy and he cant play him before the series starts.
btw give me howard u can keep your lazy fat bitch
March 4th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Blah aka me says:
Dwight will go Down With amare as the most underacheiving big men in the modern NBA. They could be so much more than they are. Where the hell is Olajuwon? He should have a big man camp, he was the ultimate center in my opinion.
I can’t stand shaq, he could have been the mj of bigs if he wasn’t lazy. He just took advantage of his size and didn’t learn as much basketball as he should have. Another underacheiver.
Today if I had to pick or center for this season, it’s shaq. Answer me this, if shaq was on orlando right now in place of Howard, would you bet against them this year? If their shooters are hitting, it’s lights out and shaq takes it easy. If they’re off, shaq is getting boards and post passes. Either way shaq is turning dunks into floaters on d cuz everyone is scared to rise up on him.
Tell me I’m wrong.
March 4th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Bruce says:
Shaq goes into a PMS scoring mode and next thing we know, we are having flashbacks of Shaq in a Lakers uniform.
The PMS will go away, just like a motivated Lamar Odom.
Don’t expect Shaq to keep this up. Shaq to me is not a full-pledge Laker.
March 4th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Blah aka me says:
And btw dwight can’t back people down because of his chicken legs. You can bench press all you want but you need a strong core and lower body to be effective in the post. That’s why a lot of sloppy out of shape lookin dudes are good post players (shaq, al jeff, zach Randolph) and guys like dwight suck with their back to the basket.
March 4th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
kevin k says:
@ Ian
sigh~ here we go again with your retarded arguments without facts based on your pure bias, disney world, lala land, have-no-idea-what-you-are-thinking statements
Shaq is blunt. you can call him a comedian or an egotistical idiot, but what shaq says has some valid point to it… sometimes :/… Shaq talked shit to Pat and the Admiral because he DID owned them. go check their matchup history.
you said shaq never gave praise? He gave Hakeem the highest praise to a big man. Shaq said he never felt so helpless against a center before and said Hakeem was the best center he ever played against.
he only talk shit to peaceful dudes? Charles Barkley sure was a peaceful guy.
Duncan unlike Dwight, has championship rings and has proven to be one of the best players ever for a long period of time. What has Dwight done? He took Shaq’s nickname from a Slam Dunk contest… Shaq gives respect to players who deserves it.
March 4th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Fire KATZ says:
yEAH UR AN IDIOT NOW QUIT
March 4th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Andrew Katz says:
@ KDizzle… agree 100%. My question to follow up on your point is about the future of the NBA.
If no big man with a bright future stays in college beyond a single season, what will come of the League? I’d imagine that the quality of big man offensive post play will be diluted slightly. But Al Jefferson and Andrew Bynum are proving that isn’t always the case. What do you think?
@Kevin K… I understand what you’re saying about the evolution of the League, and how quick double-teams help to counter back-to-the-basket post scorers. However, I disagree that you can’t “overpower” a guy with your back to the basket. Do you really believe that? It’s a combination of footwork, knowing how to work your body, and pure strength.
And the #1 most effective way to counter a defense that doubles the post is by overpowering the post defender. If we dump the ball into Shaq in the post and he power dribbles – a two-handed short dribble – he’ll put himself in a great position to get a basket before the defense can harass him.
Defenses have been swarming and doubling the post since the day this game was invented. That’s not a new thing.
- ak
March 4th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Ian says:
kevin k
really are u that stupid?????? first it was denver got better is a fluke now what with detroit iverson is out and they win fluke also??? now this dude stfu everyone knows shaq talks out of his ass everyone knows it but u apparently have a secret crush on me or something u always talk back with no real point.
didnt barkley give shaq a semi suplex.
fuck even u said he has valid points SOMETIMES so what the fuck are u talking about shaq talks shit to pleaple he thinks he has a chance at beating period why didnt he do the kobe u cant win without me shit before the finals??
just for u
pre duncan 92-96
admiral
27 ppg 11 rpg 3.2 bpg
shaq
26 ppg 11.2 rpg 2.8 bpg
thats head to head u idiot u shoulda googled those stats before posting crap that shaq owned anyone.
shaq became shaq when hakeem david and pat got old or retired he didnt dominate them shaq is the only all time great center (or so he thinks) that didnt have any competition in his prime so gtfo with your bs.
March 4th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Ian says:
one more thing fool one thing is not liking someone but calling them queens or rupaul just because is bullshit oakley didnt win 4 rings why didnt shaq run his mouth at players like that?
March 4th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Ian says:
shaq would never praise the admiral because of a autograph incident even if he dropped 71 to steal a scoring title from him…oh wait
March 4th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Ian says:
question for everyone
how many allnbas 1st team
how many allnba defensive first team
how many mvps
how many titles
did shaq win before the three centers i mentioned got old or retired?
March 4th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
ianodelaleza says:
double doubles dont mean much when shaq is involved if there is a defensive rebound and no opponents are there…hes gona leave ot for his teammates and get back on offense…i call them uncontested rebounds and dwight gets so many that i take his boards with a grain of salt….shaq gets big offensive boards and d boards
Ian H
March 4th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
K Dizzle says:
AK
Bynum got Kareem and Al got McHale. Big guys comin in need the teams draftin them to surround them with vets and former players who can actually do the teachin that they won’t get since if you’re any good, you don’t go to school long enough to learn the basics of offense and defense. I look at DeAndre Jordan, Speights and think they would have been WAY better pros had they stayed in school at least 3 years so they could learn the game.
As for the future, I been hearin hype about BJ Mullens but i seen 3-4 ohio state games this year and he needs tons of work. Apart from Thabeet, who has no offensive game to speak of, there really aren’t any big men comin down the pike. The future of the nba is power forwards playing center because legit 5s are harder and harder to find…unless you’re the clippers
March 4th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
me says:
where’s my comments?
March 4th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Bron42 aka Had springs before slamball says:
Ian I gotta disagree, young shaq beasted guys early in his career almost Identical to the way dwight does now (Cept he could lead a break and mastered the pump fake)Sure he had issues with guys like The dream early on, just like dwight has issues with bitches like Yao and Big Z, but that comes with experience. And both shaq and dwights issues against those guys was mostly foul trouble cuz they weren’t used to dealing with such a varitety of post move. But to put it like shaq was samuel dalmebert or something when he first got to the league is kinda pushing it. Shaq was shaq since day one, he just didn’t have experiene to take full advantage of his natural gifts..just like dwight. Shaq averaged 29.3 ppgs and 13 boards his second and 3rd seasons in the league and 24 as a rookie, thats not dominant? I mean he wasn’t wilt but he damn sure wasn’t average suddenly becoming good once ewing and guys retired..
March 4th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Ian says:
bron
i didnt mean he gets destroyed i meant that shaq was usually played to a draw by the other centers he didnt destroy the admiral or ewing or even zo like some people think.
and no shaq wasnt avg but u can say he didnt have competition in his prime like the others did again what i tried to say he got played to a draw is not like he held ewing to 12 points
March 4th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Ian says:
bron look up the admirals first 7 season pre injury and look up ewing and tell me if the numbers dont look almost the same well maybe ewing is a tad below but still. why wasnt shaq the selection for the first 2 nba teams till the admiral and hakeem got old???? again they destroyed each other he didnt own anyone
March 4th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Ian says:
and dwight isnt nearly as good as the 90s center again he looks like that because of the lack of big men today hell yao in considered an elite center
March 4th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
hucklebuck says:
Dwight is still pretty young in basketball years. I would place him in a DAVID ROBINSON CATEGORY before putting him a Shaq category.
Dwight is at a disadvantage because he doesn’t have the great centers to measure himself up to like Shaq did with Robinson, Ewing, and Olajuwon.
Dwight would be eaten alive by them, because he is more of a mechanical player. Shaq, even right now, has better footwork and a better game from 5ft and in.
Regardless of age, in the playoffs, it comes down to the half court game, and Shaq has the credentials to prove he should be chosen over Dwight right now.
March 4th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Ian says:
huckle
the prob is that howard doesnt have half the offense the admiral did hell maybe howard is closer to camby if he played in the 90s
March 4th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Andrew Katz says:
As always, Bron I’m with you on that.
Ian, I totally agree that the centers today are sub-par compared to what they were 15 years ago. However, I think that Shaq is the anomaly.
If you want to dig back into the #’s as to how he fared against those guys, let’s look at his ROOKIE SEASON, when he was going up against Hakeem (in his prime), the Admiral (almost in his prime) and Ewing (in his prime).
vs. NYK 4 times
1 –
Shaq – 18 points, 17 boards, 3 blocks
Pat – 15 points, 9 boards, 3 blocks
(Shaq outplayed Pat)
2-
Shaq – 22 points, 13 boards, 5 blocks
Pat – 21 points, 12 boards, 1 block
(Shaq outplayed Pat)
3 –
Shaq – 21 points, 19 boards, 9 blocks
Pat – 34 points, 14 boards, 4 blocks
(the 9 blocks makes this a Draw)
4 –
Shaq – 23 points, 9 boards, 2 blocks
Pat – 37 points, 17 boards, 1 block
(Pat outplayed Shaq)
vs. SAS – 2 times
1 –
Shaq – 19 points, 13 boards, 3 blocks
Admiral – 23 points, 16 boards, 3 blocks
(Admiral outplayed Shaq)
2 –
Shaq – 15 points, 13 boards, 2 blocks
Admiral – 30 points, 7 boards, 1 block
(Admiral outplayed Shaq)
vs. HOU – 2 times
1 -
Shaq – 12 points, 13 boards, 3 blocks
Dream – 22 points, 13 boards, 5 blocks
(Dream outplayed Shaq)
2 –
Shaq – 16 points, 17 boards, 2 blocks
Dream – 20 points, 15 boards, 4 blocks (and 9 assists)
(Dream outplayed Shaq)
So, it’s fair to say that Dream and Admiral got the better of the Diesel in his rookie season, while Shaq got the better of Ewing right off the bat.
But fast-forward just two years to the ’94-95 season. It’s a different story.
vs. SAS – 2 times
1 -
Shaq – 36 points, 12 boards, 2 blocks
Admiral – 24 points, 14 boards, 5 blocks
(Shaq outplayed Admiral)
2 –
Shaq – 28 points, 13 boards, 1 block
Admiral – 34 points, 12 boards, 2 blocks
(Admiral outplayed Shaq)
Thus, it’s a season draw.
And vs. HOU – 6 times
1 –
Shaq – 30 points, 7 boards
Dream – 27 points, 10 boards
(Draw)
2 -
Shaq – 19 points, 20 boards, 3 blocks
Dream – 22 points, 9 boards, 6 assists, 2 blocks
(Shaq outplayed Dream)
3 – (NBA Finals)
Shaq – 26 points, 16 boards, 9 assists, 3 blocks
Dream – 31 points, 6 boards, 7 assists, 4 blocks
(tough call, call it a Draw)
4 – (NBA Finals)
Shaq – 33 points, 12 boards, 7 assists,
Dream – 34 points, 11 boards, 2 assists, 4 blocks
(tough call, call it a Draw)
5 – (NBA Finals)
Shaq – 28 points, 10 boards, 6 assists, 3 blocks
Dream – 31 points, 14 boards, 7 assists, 0 blocks
(Dream outplayed Shaq…barely)
6 – (NBA Finals)
Shaq – 25 points, 12 boards, 4 blocks
Dream – 35 points, 15 boards, 3 steals
(Dream outplayed Shaq)
Calculate that, and Dream wins 2 Wins, 1 Loss, 3 Draws…
In Hakeem’s best year, he was marginally better than Shaq, who was in his third season.
Don’t say that Hakeem is clearly better than Shaq, it’s just not true.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Ian says:
andrew
i said they gave him back the same punishment
and some people here say the admiral always got destroyed by shaq the only game u posted that shaq had the better numbers the admiral still put up 26 pts more boards and more blocks then its all robinson. i remember it cuz i wrote the stats down on a book one time they showed head to head matchups the admiral got the best of shaq most of the times, but since people like shaq more u know how its gonna play out.
again played to a draw u can say but shaq didnt outplay the dream and the admiral. i cant remember a player carryin scrubs deep into the playoffs as many times as the admiral did he didnt have that other star that ewing hakeem and shaq had and still could hang with them why do people like to underrated the man? some other day someone here (yeah he got bashed by almost everyone) called pippen better than that admiral wtf. he didnt have as long a career as the dream or shaq but was just as good and u can argue a bit better from 89-96 than his peers
March 4th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Ian says:
oh and andrew look up hakkem vs robinson without that 95 series the results will surprise u.
like elliot kalb said when jordan retired the first time the admiral was the best player left standing he just had vinny del fuckin negro as his sg while the others had stars.
and isnt it weird that both he and hakeem won every award playin vs each other and shaq did it vs practically no one.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
kevin k says:
@ Ian
I was going to do what Andrew Katz did do by comparing their stats to show how RETARDED you are but I guess i dont have to. You comparing Dwight Howard to Marcus Camby says it all….
@ AK
If you actually read my entire response towards you, i said he needed to improve his footwork and awareness like Shaq to use his power. You can’t just overpower someone with power alone….
March 4th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Ian says:
kevin k
what stats? the same one that prove u were wrong u apparently didnt understand the comparison but thats ok it was expected. LOL you were going to post the numbers that explained u sir are slow hahaha please tell me how those numbers prove that shaq owned the admiral fool.
this is what i get from tryin to reason with retards its all my fault.
btw your last line there is stupid
March 4th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Ian says:
just read everything u posted again for real u must be 11 or a retard i hope is the first one. ill break it down for u a bit so u can get it since howard has no offensive game like the centers of the 90s maybe he might be closer to being camby than robinson if he played back then THIS IS WHAT I POSTED so dont try to twist shit to make it sound like u r making some sense.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
kevin k says:
@ IAN
again you only look at stats to justify your reasoning which makes you an idiot. What Andrew was stating was that Shaq in his beginning years was already just as good if not better than the Centers you mentioned while they were in their primes.
But since you are so into stats, compare Shaq’s stats against the admiral when Shaq was in his prime.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Ian says:
“Shaq talked shit to Pat and the Admiral because he DID owned them. go check their matchup history.”
so kevin k
u got the stats now what still right about that one lol
March 4th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
kevin k says:
@ian
if i am 11, you must be an infant with absolutely no logical thinking at all.
you said howard is clearly closer to camby in the 90s. if thats not comparing howard to camby then i dont know what it is. Maybe the deluded brain of yours is spewing out nonsense.
did you even bother watching the shaq vs robinson games back in the 90s to early 2000s? Not only did shaq say the stuff he says now like how he owns the Admiral, but he did own the admiral. go to the library to find some old lakers vs spurs game and you will see you idiot
March 4th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Ian says:
kevin omg u are so full of shit first it was shaq owned robinson then when proven wrong with all the stats u come back with that shit but u cant answer me why shaq didnt win anything or wasnt in the first team allnba answer that but u just try to comeback with insults because u have nothing. wasnt robinson an all nba first team his second season over the dream when was shaqs first? wasnt robinson and mvp , defensive player , scoring champ right in the middle of the ewing shaq hakeem era?? what more proof do u want please realize u r talkin shit and leave
March 4th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
kevin k says:
you just look at stats to justify everything. go look at the game footage you ignorant retard
March 4th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
kevin k says:
you say hakeem, shaq, ewing era?? LOL shaq was only in his 3-5th year in the league foo
March 4th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
kevin k says:
when the Cs you mentioned were in their prime. Shaq’s prime was in the Lakers days.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Ian says:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA spurs vs laker fool thats in the duncan era that is just one season before duncan how convenient u taking an off his prime admiral didnt my first post say it was when robinson was the man again taking shit however u want it.
AGAIN GO READ EVERYTHING I SAID THE PLAYERS IN THEIR PRIME and u come back with that
where is the answer for what ive been asking u??? since u dont know it its a big fat ZERO on everything
March 4th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
kevin k says:
the fact you compare the C’s in their prime to Shaq when he was still a baby in the league says it all. Shaq in his first 5 years, he was still evenly matched or not better than the Cs you mentioned.
If you compare to YAO to Dwight, Yao for the most part out-performed Dwight, but people will tell you that Dwight is better or they rather have Dwight. Yao is in his prime while Dwight still has long ways to go to reach his potential.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Ian says:
robinson
3-5 seasons vs hakeem in his prime vs ewing in his prime
got 2 first teams all nba and was all nba in all 4 both teams , won a scoring a title and won a defensive player
so again u r telling me what that shaqs was more impressive
dude what r u sayin first it was shaq owned him back then u were proven wrong now its the 3-5 years then i post what the admiral did in that same span. and u still cant answer me a question dude we are done u r a joke
March 4th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
kevin k says:
@ ian
what did you ask me? since you have so much nonsense, i don’t bother reading every single question of yours since most of them are common sense… which you seriously lack.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Ian says:
to sum it all up
i posted my opinion of shaq kevin jumps to his defense like its personal to him , he says he used to own the admiral when proven wrong with matchups you come back with the laker and duncan days when i clearly stated that it was in the mid 90s. not only that after you said it was only 3-5 years of shaq but in that same time the admiral won every individual award huh?? how weird is that shit.
and at the end i was the one making no sense and all of the post he came back with where all you retard u make no sense sure thing my man sure thing
March 4th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
sweetv0mit says:
You should have just put them up 1 on 1 instead on who would you rather pick for the rest of the season. I think thats going to be a better match up/argument. Shaqs strength vs Dwights speed. I’m gonna take Shaq as the winner. Who’s yours and why?
March 4th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Ian says:
shaq didnt improve from the mid 90s to the 00s maybe something small he just looked way better because no one was giving him the business back. kevin just let it go it was my opinion on him and the reasons behind it which were backed by facts andrew posted them not me
March 4th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
TJ says:
The end of that Lakers-Suns game shows me why I’d rather have Shaq. One of the biggest plays was when Shaq got the ball, patiently waited for the double, then hit Matt Barnes with a perfect pass (right in his shooting pocket). He is one of the better passing big men of all time, in addition to the better post moves.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
karizmatic says:
There is an argument to be made here for Shaq, but I would still take Howard.
Wow Ian you really love Admiral huh? I happen to think Hakeem was better than Shaq. But most people won’t agree with that.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Ian says:
karizmatic
hes my fav player but when i talk about centers i talk with base if u ask me who had the better career and who would i rank higher its shaq over hakeem and david more titles and more or less same awards. but if i had all three in their prime for 5-6 season on my team shaq is my last pick i wont mention ewing because he isnt that good imo.
and when i make my pick ill tell u why not just because for example shaq and david had more or less the same team success when shaq was in orlando and robinson pre duncan. but duncan as a rookie to a lottery team to the second round full of scrubs and shaq had penny scott grant anderson and did more or less the same.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Ian says:
you can come back and tell me shaq is better because of this and that but dont comeback with u r a retard just because u dont like a player like i said people on this site dont like the admiral that much apparently someone the other day say pippen was better and kemp was on par with the admiral now tell me what u think about that.
i like the weird numbers as stats not just the ppg just because u jack up for a bad team i like the win shares , per , defensive win shares and stuff like that even those have flaws but are a better measure of how valuable a player is a to team because it takes into account the scrubs you have as teammates the admiral is third all time in per behind jordan and shaq and is still over shaq in win shares and shaq has played more games i think. that to me counts even if you guys dont like it hakeem also i rank ahead of the admiral career wise and the man is light years behind the admiral and shaq in those stats.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
karizmatic says:
The reason I give Hakeem a pass on the rings is beacuse he played in the Jordan era and was the only one to get rings when Jordan left, to me that says something. So that when I compare his two rings to Shaq’s four it takes on a little more importance. But like I said I already know few people agree with me that Hakeem is better than Shaq.
March 4th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Ian says:
actually i dont think so it might be close if we did a poll the thing about shaq is that imo he needs more guard help than the other alltime greats to be that effective.
its like something i read the other day that said many people say pippen was lucky to play with jordan but how many titles and mvps did jordan win without pippen?? people dont like to look at things both ways they judge everyplayer differently depending if they liked him or not
March 4th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
ianodelaleza says:
im just gonna say something here and i HOPE people agree with me…
numbers arent everything….especially with big men, shaq was notorious because when he was in his prime, the paint was a no go zone and on offense, the floor was spaced and he made everyones shootinhg % go up, im guessing rob and keem did as well
anyway i dont know who id pick right now…yet i think everyone knows that im a shaq guy, and proud of it, and everyones got their own opinions and im fine with that, all big men mentioned in this post are greats
Iano
March 4th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Ian says:
ianodelaleza
agree and its true big men are the hardest to measure good big men get scrubs open shots and a good contract
March 4th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
LAballer says:
after last nights game..id take neither of them and go with mbenga..
no for real tho..some of you guys keep saying shaq went up against scrubs but umm whats dwight going up against right now in the center department? not many you can name there…
March 4th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
Claw says:
Shaq was a dominant center when he came into the league, he just didn’t dunk, he dunked over you and I still remember the game when the basketball stantion fell down. He was and still is just a big freak of nature, to be that athletic and coordinated with that frame is just not natural. He’s not fat, I saw him up close AS weekend and that dude is big and his arms are pretty ripped for an old dude, this is ain’t Mel Dinner Bell Turpin.
Hakeem and Robinson are more like DHo, they were not near as big as Shaq, and when you watch Shaq he clearly doesn’t get calls when he goes up and guys are clobbering him because it just don’t phase him. He has to be the toughest guy to call a game on, because it also looks like he knocks guys over to get to the rim.
To bag on Shaq even at this juncture, how would you rank him today? Improved FT %, playing inspired D, and working guys over in the post he was outplaying Amare this year. What centers are better than him today at his old a** age?
We are arguing about DHo, who else you got? Yao? Don’t thinks so. Z? Cmon Bynum? if he wasn’t injured each year.
March 4th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
Bron42 aka Had springs before slamball says:
I put it like this, Ian stated shaq didn’t dominant ewing in his prime, robinson or dream in theirs BUT played equal to them on most cases. So we won’t say shaq owned them but we’ll say he played at least 3 hall of fame/all time great centers to a stalemate AS A ROOKIE and then some. So while he didn’t own them, it still shows how dominant he was from the get go. Thats like some high school kid playin on the same level as a 4 year college senior. Shaqs natural talent kept him on par with seasoned vets in their prime who as we all kno, at that point where much more well rounded players. I think that speaks enough for his credit. AND to stay at that level for so many years (even afer dream and robinson left, he still had annoyances like Zo, rick smits, barkley, etc..)Not to mention dominant up and coming SGs and still win rings.
As for dwight, I think his biggest issue is he doesn’t really have comp to push him. I mean hes better than yao on sheer natural ability alone. LEt alone guys like bynum, bogut etc..Shaq had greats that made him have to get better to be the most dominant guy. Dwigh could stay at this level and still be the most dominant center in the league for a while. Thats why I liked the matchup last night,It showed dwight where he needs to be. Even as good as he is, shaq made him look lil, which would push dwight to get better. Shame the nba is all SGs now and barely any really good big men
March 4th, 2009 at 6:40 pm
Ian says:
bron that is all i said but u can say the same about robinson and dream since day one they did the same to stablished centers so that doesnt make shaq that special like he was the first to do it
March 4th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
Bron42 aka Had springs before slamball says:
robinson and dream were doin it to guys who werent athletically on their level when they came into the league AND didnt do it as long to my knowledge…i could be wrong though
March 4th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
Ian says:
well athletically on that level i think there have been three centers like that but what i tried to say is that alltime great centers were great from day one unlike the howards yaos or even amares of today
what do u mean by as long?
March 4th, 2009 at 7:04 pm
LakeShow84 says:
But who says Dwight doesnt get into the conference finals and wilt away against a good defensive squad?? its happened before in the FIRST round..
Shaq has championship experience and has been there.. so if i am makin a TITLE run i would take Shaq because hes been there.. not saying he would play better than Dwight Howard but Shaq would know what to do in certain situations Dwight aint been in yet..
And fucking Bron and Ian.. you two again?? they get you guys going and its an extra 30 posts lol i am in on the next one.. even though i am noticing somehow Dream and DRobinson end up in a lot of ur discussions lol u fellas have a good day! im out!
March 4th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Jason says:
It’s started to get comical how little Andy know about the NBA. I’ve seen now about 400 people question whether or not he even watches the game. Shaq had 1 more block than Dwight but Dwight altered about 20 shots last night. Shaq’s fat ass is TERRIBLE at help defense. He’ll get lucky on an on ball defense block here and there but overall he is a HUGE LIABILITY on defense. Shaq gaurding a pick and roll is the worse defense i’ve ever seen. Nice job at showing us ONCE AGAIN that you don’t really watch NBA games Katz!
March 4th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Bron42 aka Had springs before slamball says:
@Ian, unlike yao, dwight has been almost great from day one and yao came in with way more experience. Dwight was breaking shaqs magic records as a rookie so you can’t really knock him or say he wasn’t on par. AS for how long, shaq has been dominant his whole career (minus injuries). Dreams career where he was dominant wasn’t as long since he only won the years jordan wasn’t there. Shaq came in 92 and is still playing now putting up big numbers. This many seasons into their career, ewing, dream and robinson were all done. Shaq said himself, hes always been dominant, cept for when he was injured. AND its much harder for a physically skilled guy to stick around than it is a Skill player to stick around. Cuz physical abilites go way (hops, speed, etc..) meanwhile u can always stick a jump shot or something like that.
@lake, Um I’ve only posted like 4 times and were not even arguing lol Its Ian and some kid goin at it. And we go back and fourt cuz too many homers on here wanna argue about their fav guys and how great they are no matter how much stats and facts say the opposite.
March 4th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
doc says:
Shaq is better all time but give me Dwight right now,fuck the bullshit.
March 4th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Bron42 aka Had springs before slamball says:
http://www.hoopsdaily.com/content/ai-end-era
one of the best iverson articles i’ve read
March 4th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
kennypayne says:
shaq’s been running his mouth because the last two years everyone said he’s washed up, so when he puts together a decent season he wants to show he’s still got it. don’t blame him, shaq just wants people to know when he was in his prime he would tear up these young bucks
March 4th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
heartbreaker85 says:
in the regular season, id go with dwight. playoffs, shaq.
if they exchanged teams, shaq would be dominant in orlando’s 1 big + shooters game where he can get his and dish out 5 assists+.
dwight would be amare. actually, dwight IS amare pre-microfracture. tall, athletic and quick (only more juiced up) of course, amare has the edge in offensive skills, but is still a face-to-the-rim type of player.
in a slowed down game, you dont have to double dwight in the post. look at how the pistons manhandled him with old vets like dice and sheed, even maxiel.
funny how the media failed to see it when the pistons said that howard had ‘weak legs.’
they weren’t saying he’s weak or can’t jump and sh*t. they were pointing out the fact that dwight’s force comes from his upper body, meaning anyone with a solid position down low (pryzbilla, thomas, sheed, shaq, duncan, ben wallace) can hold him one on one and stop him from backing ‘em down the paint. that’s why dwight sticks with his running hooks and face-up shots.
BECAUSE HE CAN’T BACK ANYONE AS BIG AND STRONG(IN SHAQ’S CASE STRONGER) DOWN.
shaq? people come at him with double teams even at his age. even san antonio sends help for tim or kurt.
March 4th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Andrew Katz says:
Jason,
What’d I say that you’re taking issue with?
This is what I wrote in Post #17:
“Dwight is a far better shot blocker, and he’s able to get out and challenge on screen-and-rolls, while Shaq isn’t good hedging at all.”
Isn’t that exactly what you’re saying in your post?
- ak
March 4th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
K Dizzle says:
Bron
great article on AI
March 4th, 2009 at 8:30 pm
Ian says:
bron
by homer i hope u mean ranger john (anything spur) and doug (anything kobe) hehehehe because i did say the admiral was third career wise and that i could make a case for him having the best prime without talking out my ass.
and yeah it was kinda sad seeing hakeem and ewing at this age but again the admiral stayed decent he didnt hit that low point hope shaq doesnt either
lakeshow
was just messin
March 4th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
AB_40 says:
shaq once said if you wanna be somebody you’ve got to kill everybody. He probably did that year after year after year. Problem with dwight is he doesn’t have anybody to kill. Of the best 3 centers 2 play in the west and the seccond best ‘big’ in the east is chris bosh and he weighs somewhere between 210 and 230. shaq came in and had olajuwan and ewing as the still playing greats and he came in with mourning. Deke was a great devensive player. You don’t have bigs like that anymore, since they all wanted to be 4′s or 3′s since they had to come in and play a in prime shaq but that’s another story.
My point is dwight doesn’t have the attitude nor the mouth nor the game to kill everybody and don’t say sorry afterwards. he smiles at you like hey no hard feelings, tries to get along and probably says sorry after he scored 40 and 20 on you. And that’s not gonna change but still.
And to answer the quiestion shaq or dwight as a first option I’d take shaq cuz he knows the game inside out and will do something good with the ball 4 out of 5 times. If it’s a seccond option or a team with a bonafide wing man I’d take dwight.
If you’d interchange them I think none of the teams would benefit that especialy with amare not playing. if he would play as a seccond post option in phoenix… wow. and shaq with all those shooters, ok it would work out haha
March 4th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
D-Nice says:
All I know is Shaq looked like a B*TCH flopping
against Dwight last night! He was funny in the
90′s but now he’s just bitter & hates it when
he’s not the center of attention! Enjoy your
last days Shaq & stop hatin’!
March 5th, 2009 at 1:01 am
solomon (el latino machismo) says:
no chuck hayes in there? sad
March 5th, 2009 at 10:32 am
b$ says:
shaq did not invent the repost. i did!
March 5th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Bron42 aka Had springs before slamball says:
@ian, ya i was callin the kid you were arguing with a homer, not you..
@AB, Ya thats what I said, dwigt doesn’t have anyone outsde of himself to really push him to get better. He could stay at the same level and still be the most dominant center. HEll even Al jefferson who is a wayyyyy better post player isn’t close to dwights overall level and dwight still puts up better numbers with 2 post moves. And dwight doesn’t have shaqs grit YET, a few more playoff loses might make it happen though once he realizes he is the ONLY chance they have of winning
March 7th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
thomasmmm says:
101st!
all the talk is unnecessary unless it’s a ploy to increase attention to the NBA. shaq all the way but he really needs to make his free throws. and maybe break another rim for the hell of it.