No PG Will Ever Come Close To John Stockton
Let me just come out and say it: No point guard will ever be better than John Stockton.
When I was watching the Mavs/Suns game the other night, I thought about it for a second. Jason Kidd had notched 20 assists and passed Magic Johnson for third place on the NBA’s All-Time Assists Leaders list behind Stockton and Mark Jackson, but that was only the second time that Kidd had dropped more than 20 dimes in his career.
This seemed crazy to me, considering when you think of active PGs, J-Kidd is thought of as the epitome. But then I thought perhaps dropping 20 dimes wasn’t that common. I thought, if Kidd only did it twice, perhaps it was a rare feat. Turns out 18 players have recorded 20 or more assists twice.
John Stockton? How about 34 times.
During his 19 seasons with the Jazz, Stockton dished out 15,806 assists and stole the ball 3,265 times. These are not just records, but milestones. The next closest player is Jackson with 10,334 and Jordan with 2,514.
Also, unlike modern-day point guards, Stockton was indestructable, playing all 82 games in 17 of his 19 seasons. Think that’s impressive? The Jazz never missed the playoffs during Stockton’s career and they reached the Western Conference Finals five times in a seven-year span.
Looking at the League today, other than perhaps Chris Paul, I don’t see anyone coming even close to breaking these records.
Do you think there will ever be another Stockton?
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April 8th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Karonte says:
Yeah! I think Al Harrington will be dropping dimes like crazy next year
April 8th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
fallinup says:
Best PG ever. Young PG’s should idol there game around Stockton’s. Deadly jump shooter, awesome court vision, a leader on and off the court just by example.
He’s one of a kind.
April 8th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
doc says:
Not unless its his son,but there will be another tough ass whiteboy point guard like Stockon.That shit dont stop because he retired.Only way that shit stop is when youngins stop balling.
April 8th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
doc says:
@fallinup-He not better than Magic or Zeke.He saying something after that but them first 2 gonna tell him get his chips up.
April 8th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Sanpitch says:
Nope.
and thanks for doing an article on someone else that is going to the hof besides his airness.
no one will break the assist record. also, to point out that stock only missed 22 games in his 19 seasons is amazing considering he was setting picks on guys a foot taller and 100 lbs. heavier.
he had that cal ripken jr. durability that is rare to see.
also check out his career assist to turnover ratio. not many people going to touch where he was at. i believe it was about 4:1.
not much pub for this guy from a small market and not a limelight seeker.
no rings but hell of a player.
April 8th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
T. says:
I love Magic Johnson and he definately revolutionized the game with his all around skills. That said, as far as traditional point gods go, Stockton was the greatest. Funny thing is, I hated him when he played. I payed more attention to Isiah Thomas. Had Stockton played in a different market and still put up those milestone numbers, there would be absolutely no debate. The cat was a killer!
April 8th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
hucklebuck says:
NEVER EVER!
pass first mentality
could palm the ball for better control
MASTER of the pick n roll
could shoot from anywhere
could drive to pass, or finish
durable
best off ball screener for a point guard
Paul is not close to Stockton, he’s more of an Isiah Thomas.
if you look up “point guard” in the dictionary, he is the first and best example of what one should be.
April 8th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Sanpitch says:
Check out this link if you think anyone will ever catch his assist record.
http://www.slcdunk.com/2009/2/10/753662/who-can-catch-john-stockto
April 8th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Karonte says:
I think Rudy Gay will rain 4.000 dimes next season
April 8th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
itsakademiks says:
and didnt he have microfracture surgery one off-season??
April 8th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Dilf says:
Great write up.. And i have to agree, no one will ever catch Stockton’s assist record. I hated him growing up whenever he played my Lakers. He and Malone killed us in the late 90′s. A great PG. Had great court awareness, jumpshot, and quickness. I can’t see Deron or CP3 matching his assist numbers. Both have to find a Malone on their team. Stockton has my respect. Although Magic to me is the greatest PG ever.
April 8th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
NYCBalla says:
Not only was he the best point gaurd to ever play the game, but he is the best white dude who has ever played! Probably always will be.
April 8th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
d says:
hopefully no one will ever wear their shorts as high as him. aside from that, I agree that skill-wise, he was the pinacle of a true pg.
April 8th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
funkymunky says:
Wow! How did such a skinny little dude like him play in all those games? And not just get in games, like AC Green, but totally dominate his position?
April 8th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
... says:
That slcdunk.com link is ridiculous… Dude was a beast!
April 8th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Bron42 aka Had springs before slamball says:
ok here some people are just talking crazy…Top five pg all time but not best ever. That title is still in magics case. Also NYCballa said best white dude? guy didn’t even win a ring. so that title still goes to larry legend. Dude was legit but never won a mvp, never won a ring on only 2 finals apperances and even with all those steals was only second team all defense (5x though). So relax with the “best ever” talk
April 8th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Dilf says:
Funkymunky, the dude was short and quick. Kept himself in great shape. Probably never missed a practice. And those short shorts helped big time. Shorts were small and light weight. Easy to make those pretty bounce passes through his legs to Malone.. One of the greatest PG of all time. I had a chance to watch him on t.v. Dude was real.
April 8th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
LakeShow84 says:
he got 5000 more assist than the NEXT man in that stat all time and a good 700 more steals than the NEXT man in that stat all time.. speaks for itself..
And missed only 22 games in 19 seasons?? there aint even an arguement.. Magic had the size and Zeke could score at will but for Stockton to do what he did with what he had is insane.. work ethic baby.. and this was recent as well.. not in 50′s, 60′s, 70′s..
I liked Jackson better just because he was SICK with STYLE but no one can speak on Stockton..
April 8th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Bron42 aka Had springs before slamball says:
ya well jordan put a end to stocktons short shorts in more ways than one…kiss the rings…
April 8th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Chicagorilla says:
The great thing about Stockton is that he was not that great of a shooter in the beginning of his career, he made himself into a clutch shooter that also shot around 50% his entire career. I don’t believe he ever led the NCAA in assist while at Gonzaga either. And with very little speed, he used his quick hands and smarts to put himself in position to play great D. He is the definition of feisty defender. 14apg is just nuts. I know Magic did something similar but not as many times. I still believe Magic and Zeke might be better, but it’s by a small margin.
April 8th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Dilf says:
I agree, Stockton isn’t the best PG ever. But you can’t help but give him his due and respect whether you hate him when he played against your team. He was that good. Congrats to Stock for making the HOF.
April 8th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Tha Boddy "Shaqified" says:
Stockton was the greatest PG of all time…He did what a PG was supposed to do help his teammates in scoring.You just don’t get 15k assists without being a beast in the helpmode type.Race doesn’t matter he was elite in his own way.Kidd was a all around player in his own mode…Nobody can touch either of them
April 8th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
money says:
i have to agree with everyone else in saying that while stockton’s records are impressive, that doesn’t make him the best pg. magic revolutionized the game and is the best pg ever. look at the titles.
April 8th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Bron42 aka Had springs before slamball says:
so question…if kidd in his prime played with karl malone in his…does he break stocktons record?
April 8th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
djKianoosh says:
best career for a PG ever. yep. absolutely. the numbers bear it out.
now, best ever single season? that can be up for debate.
April 8th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
alimoe says:
Stockton is the greatest PG ever, the bulls are the only reason he didnt get a ring.
April 8th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
joeman says:
Just think if the Stockton Jazz were not in the Jordan era, they would be like San Antonio, winning the chip every other year. Talk to about wrong place, wrong time…Charles Barkley would have one too.
Chip or no Chip Stock is the PG mold! If Deron or CP had someone as consistent as Malone, they might have a shot at the assist record! Naw….it ain’t gonna happen, when was the last time someone played 19 seasons!
April 8th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
marcus the great says:
i agree and disagree with everyone sayin Zeke and Magic were better than Stock.
Magic was a better all around player, bigger and stronger and able to play multiple positions. of course the court vision was insane too.
Zeke was more of a scorer, and still a great pg. of course he would demolish Stock one on one.
but a PURE point, as in pass first, run a team point, Stockton has that hands down. and i dont even like him like that but i’ma PG. running the pick and roll, 34 games of 20 or more assists!!!! f*ckin crazy! and the numbers dont lie, men and women lie but numbers dont. so PURE POINT GUARDS, stockton is the best
April 8th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
marcus the great says:
and remember Jordan’s last shot as a Bull?? that wasnt a buzzer beater, the Jazz got the ball back. and Stock took the last shot, it didnt go in but it was close. and i’ll admit i was scared as hell that white boy was gonna hit it too
April 8th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Chicagorilla says:
“so question…if kidd in his prime played with karl malone in his…does he break stocktons record?”
Well some credit has to be given to coaching too. Stock had very good old school coaches who were smart enough to put the ball in his hands and let him make the decisions. Kidd would not break that assist record because he would have been injured or having some personal issues. Kidd is a great Pg but I would even take Mark Price before Kidd, because even with the injuries Price did his thing. Kidd can’t shoot, and I can’t respect the game of someone who has been in the L for 10+ years and still hasn’t become a threat offensively. Kidd hurts his team by not being a good shooter. Sure he hits 3pointers here and there is I think he is even on the all time list for 3′s, but you better believe as a coach, I leave him open from 3 all game long. Shooting 33% from 3 as opposed to the 50%+ he would generate with passes and lay-ups is a good trade.
April 8th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Jayo says:
The greatest of all-time? Stockton was good for a long time, but never during his career was he consider the best PG in the League. Just cause you have stats doesnt mean you’re the greatest. Let’s not forget the 96′ playoffs when Payton was killing him. Nobody in their right mind would take Stockton over Magic or Zeke! Mark Jax is 2nd on the assist list. Does that make him the 2nd greatest PG of all-time?
April 8th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
marcus the great says:
i think comparing Stock/Magic/Zeke is like apples to oranges anyway. Magic is more comparable to JKidd, Zeke to CP3 and Deron, Stock to…. Nash???
April 8th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
marcus the great says:
i think comparing Stock/Magic/Zeke is like apples to oranges anyway. Magic is more comparable to JKidd, Zeke to CP3 and Deron, Stock to…. Nash???
depends on what you’re lookin for in a PG
April 8th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Sanpitch says:
i would take Stock any day over zeke. this talk that zeke was a better pg is ridiculous.
the only one that has a case against stockton is magic.
although magic was a better “player”, stockton was a better pg.
magic is a top 10 all-time “player” that played the pg position. stock is the mold for what a pg is.
for someone to break his assists record some cat has to average 10.5 assists for 19 years, only missing 22 games. so really they have to average 10.5 assists for 20 yrs.
to break his steals record they have to average 2.2 steals/game for 20 yrs. so basically chris paul has to average what he is averaging in steals for 16 more years.
wow!
chris paul has a chance at the steals but damn that will be hard, considering cp3 has already missed 28 games!!
April 8th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
disektdotcom says:
Sorry my pick would be JKidd based on the almighty triple doubles.
http://disekt.com
April 8th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
LakeShow84 says:
If Magic finished his career and had played as much as he couldve most of you would have a point.. You guys are talking about what ifs and saying Magic won his rings and Stockton didnt?? i recall us running into MJ and the Bulls and we lost too.. Shit MJ made Magic into a spectator half that series..
Quit hating.. he had the most prolific & durable career of any PURE point guard.. EVER.. PERIOD.. Zeke was a combo guard to me, Magic didnt consistently play enough IMO to be considered up there.. and i can say that as a Laker fan..
Stockton aint even in my top 3 favorites PG’s of all time but you cant discredit what he did.. Dont hate congratulate.. he aint a first ballot HOFer for nothing..
April 8th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
dboy says:
John Stockton had microfracture surgery way back in October of 1997. At the time, he was 35 years old. He came back to play 64 games that season and lead the Jazz to the NBA Finals. He played five more seasons after that, averaging 32.8 minutes and 8.2 assists per game post-surgery. Jason Kidd had microfracture surgery on his left knee in July of 2004. He missed the first 16 games of the ’04-05 season, started slowly, but he played a full season in ’05-06. Jason was 31 at the time.
Stock and Kidd were able to come back so successfully b/c they didnt rely on their jumping ability. Yes they came back slower but their games were based on IQ not pure foot speed and explosiveness. Although Kidd was very fast with and without the ball. This just shows the freak of nature Stock and Kidd are, they both are true athletic marvels even compared to other NBA players. Combine that with their work ethic in taking care of their bodies, a bit of luck and IQ, is what makes them great.
People underestimate Stock’s speed, he was pretty quick in the open court and he would blow by guys on a regular basis. Especially playing in the 80′s 90′s and early 2000′s when hand checking was allowed.
He has huge, strong, quick hands which allowed him to do a lot with the ball and strip the ball. He was a great anticapator in the passing lanes and he was very quick to the ball.
April 8th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Sccob says:
Chris Paul might come the closest. Deron might do some damage to some records when it is said and done as well.
April 8th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
dano says:
stockton is what you should show all the undersized white boys (like myself) when they want to play ball. magic was 6’9″. you cant put him in the category because he didnt have the skills. magic was a better PG? he couldnt shoot, or play D. and he had worthy, kareem, AND Riles w/ him. thats like saying paul pierce is the best player in the nba because he led the C’s to chip last year. i could do that with KG and Ray Ray on my team.
stockton is how you play the position.
zeke was a two in a ones body
magic was just a freak of nature.
you want to know how to play the position, watch stockton.
April 8th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Dirk says:
I’ve been a Laker fan since ’86 and hate the Jazz. And hated every time the t.v. announcers say “Stockton to Malone” cuz that meant automatic 2 points and 1 against my Lakers.
Thank you and congrats to Stockton.
April 8th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
hucklebuck says:
NYC Baller-y
don’t forget about that white guy from Boston #33. Stockton is 4th, behind Larry Bird and Bob Cousy and Jerry West as the best white guys of all time.
April 8th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
POPPI GEE says:
All this is based on definition and what you value personally most in a pg.
The person who thinks your pg should be getting triple dubs is prolly going to anoint Kidd as the greatest.
Where some folks think a pg is always suppose to be a pass first type like Stockton.
Others like a pg like Magic who can play multiple positions outside of the point.
Sure there won’t be another Stock, but you have to look at all that allows that from who his coach was, his team, the era and so on.
The best pg ever? Well, that can be debated forever. An excellet pg who most def. put his mark on the game and played well way more than not, now that can’t really be argued.
I think everyone should just regulate this to saying that Stockton was awesome in so many ways and leave it at he was an amazing and often astonishing pg.
Perhaps often it’s betta to say “ain’t no best” ~ Nas
I mean for your own personal standards, enjoy who you think is top (for me it’s Magic) but overall, Zeke, Magic, Stockton, Kidd, and Jackson were all some pgs who did and put in massive work!
April 8th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
NYCBalla says:
Stockton is the best white dude to play the game! He played in a day and age where the black man was given a fair shake on the court so competition was more fierce. Those other white dudes mentioned would be good in Stocktons era, but would not dominate the way this dude did. For real.
April 8th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
doc says:
2NYCballa-Stockton aint fuckin with Bird.Nobody disrespecting Stock by saying he not the best because he never was.And how was Zeke a combo guard?When did he play the 2?He set his O up just as good as anybody his whole life.And Stock aint fucking with him.He won in Stock era.Magic aint even in this discussion,some would take him over Mike.Stock a hall of famer and gets a salute but he aint top 2 for sure and Mark Jackson aint top 10.
April 8th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
doc says:
When CP3 was going after 20 10 dimes and 3 steals for the first time since the 80′s who got it last?The dude yall saying a combo guard.
April 8th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
NYCBalla says:
@doc….you need to watch some film son
April 8th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
doc says:
No u need to watch film,calling Stock better than bird.Thats some lunatic shit.
April 8th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
NYCBalla says:
@doc….maybe we should get together and watch film together. I’m not saying Stock blows Bird out of the water… but he was more dominant at his position and I would much rather build a franchise around him than Bird.
Are you just some insecure white dude who can’t admit this?
April 8th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
BROGDEN says:
DIME’S Aron : “Looking at the League today…I don’t see anyone coming even close to breaking these records.”
So the headline really should be “NO PG Will Ever Come Close To John Stockton’s Records.”
OK – I’ll give you that.
But I liked MAGIC and KJ wayyyyyyy better than Stockton. Not taking anything away from Stockton ’cause he’s ILL. He’s synomonous with point guard. He’s the reason I use to think GOOD pgs are the short, passing types. Hey, I grew up in the 90s…with Hodges, Kerrs, Bogues, Stock, etc.
Which brings me to…CP.
I know a lot of cats think Deron is better. Especially h2h. He, Deron that is, IS tougher. And guards bigger guards better…
But, personally, I think Chris Paul’s going down as the new “prototype” point guard.
If Stockton was the prototype in the 90s.
I think it’s Chris Paul in the new millenium.
And TRUST ME, he’ll have TONS OF RECORDS, also.
And then, some blogger will blog: “No PG Will Ever Come Close to Chris Paul.”
April 8th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
everybodyisslow says:
funny how race becomes a issue when talking about sports, lol. LARRY BIRD WHITE OR BLACK is one of the greatest players ever. stock is one of the greatest pg’s ever, these are to guys whom played the game around all other races.. i understand maybe takin some glory away from the 50′s and 60′s white players but to refer stock and bird as the “white BOY” makes you sound more ignorant then GARY PAYTON, and that a hard thing to do.
April 8th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Chicagorilla says:
It is close but Zeke is a better PG than stock. To completely write off Zeke because his career was stopped due to an ankle injury is moronic.
Stock was a good PG and ran his offense to perfection, which very rarely led to him having to create his own shot or create a shot for his teammates, which is an ability that Stockton was not great at. Which is what I believe led to his not winning an NBa Chip.
Zeke ran his offense pretty well (even with some attitudes on his team in Mark Aguire, Dantly, Rodman, Salley, Lambieer). But the key to Zeke is that when his offense broke down, he was able to create a shot for himself or a teammate in the blink of an eye. He was phenomenal at that and almost unmatched at his position.
That’s why Zeke is a top 2 all-time as a pg. He was one of the best leaders ever and that defines the PG position.
April 8th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
Big V says:
J-Stock!! Best pure PG of all time.
April 8th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
kevin k says:
i wonder what people’s response would be if people said such things as,” oh Lebron is the best sf for a “black boy” or Ray Allen is the best shooter for a “black boy”…”
100 bucks, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson would be up in this joint crying and shouting…
leave race out of the topics you ignorant fucks.
Stockton was one of the best PG ever. congrats on being 1st ballot HOFER. enough said
April 8th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
dagwaller says:
Isiah and Magic are up there. Magic was a better rounded player, I think, because of his size. Isiah was a better scorer, yes, but to me, the idea of a PG is to pass and steal. No one ever did it better than Stockton.
And I know there are posts about having the Mailman, but A.) Magic had Kareem, who scored more than Malone; B.) maybe Malone doesn’t have the same career without Stockton; and C.) it’s not like he was passing to JUST Malone. You don’t get THAT many assists passing to just one guy.
April 8th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Bron42 aka the truth says:
First off,
@Kevin K, race plays a big/HUGE part in sports. The simple fact is, you can’t just go “hes the best pg ever” since hes not. The same way dirk is the best TALL shooter, and isn’t just said as the BEST SHOOTER. Cuz hes not, but for someone his size he is.Or Iverson is the best player under 6’2. Same with stockton, he wasn’t the best pg ever, but for white guys (who generally aren’t historically great at basketball) hes the best to ever play. So his race actually helps his case by saying hes the best white pg. Magic was better, zeke was better and dont gimme the “oh well stockton played the bulls crap” cuz so did zeke, magic played bird and a ton of other greats. And they both won. Plus stockton also had malone who was almost his equal at PF. and lastly PLENTLY of people have said “such and such is good for a black boy” for years and years and still do it today. its nothing new, which is why sharpton and them get pissed. Also, dano, the one who said white boy, is white himself…
@NYCballa, are you dumb? you’d rather build your franchise around stockton over bird who a) is the best WHITE PLAYER to ever play the game. b) actually won a ring c)helped make the celtics even more of a dynasty while the jazz were historic brides maids. d)bird who helped changed the way the game was played? e) bird who killed it in space jam with just a small role? that larry bird? And again, save the bulls talk cuz bird had to play guys in his era too and you can’t even be in the topic of “the greatest at such and such” if you can’t win the chip. I don’t care if its football basketball or hopscotch. and larry bird would laceeeeeee john stockton. on any level.
some of you are obviously young and just basing it on numbers. Hell the big O had crazy numbers and no one even mentions him in the “all time great at his position debate” anymore. Like someone said, mark jackson is #2 all time assists, is he the second best pg of all time? Stockton is great but hes on the B team. A-team stand up..Magic, Jordan, Bird, Duncan, Russel/wilt/shaq..you choose…then everyone else
April 8th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Bron42 aka the truth says:
@dag, actually, most of stocktons assists were just to malone. Thats why their both greats at their positions lol. I mean sure byron russel got a few in there with horny hittin 3s.
was stockton even a starter on the dream team? or was he coming off the bench to magic lol.
April 8th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
QQ says:
BEST.
FUCKING.
PG.
EVER.
One of the reasons I played ball is because I saw this small, seemingly frail, white guy making clowns out of other ballers in the NBA.
April 8th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
K Dizzle says:
The List
1) Magic – did someone really post that he “didn’t have the skills?”
2)Big O
3)Isiah
4)Stock
5)JKidd
6)Glove
7)KJ
8)Walt Frazier
9)Gail Goodrich
10)Bob Cousy
Longevity doesn’t always equal greatness
April 9th, 2009 at 12:38 am
johnsacrimoni says:
K Dizzle, that’s a good list. I agree with it mostly. I would almost put KJ over Glove because he was more of a pure point. I also think Bob Cousy is overrated and would put Nash there, even with the terrible defense. When ESPN did their list a few years ago, KJ didn’t even get honorable mention.
April 9th, 2009 at 12:47 am
johnsacrimoni says:
In ’97-98, the Suns had Kidd, KJ, and Nash all on the same team.
April 9th, 2009 at 1:31 am
Mark says:
What’d he play? 400 full seasons WITH them short-shorts? Last of a dying breed.
Man is a legend. Underappreciated, underhyped, but still managed to over-perform. Congrats to him. Likely the best pure 1 (statistically… I didn’t get many Jazz games back in the day) we will have in eons.
April 9th, 2009 at 3:16 am
QQ says:
@ Mark: LOL.
I love Stock and all, but come on now, I am quite sure he DIDN’T play 400 seasons, unless he really is a robot from the future. Which will be really awesome.
April 9th, 2009 at 3:49 am
Flip says:
Wow, tons of comments on this one..
Personally, I’d take Magic over him. But since Magic was more of a scorer and all around player, you can definitely make the case for Stockton as the best pure PG.
April 9th, 2009 at 9:22 am
Jo Jo says:
I think Stockton was a very good PG. He played the way a “true” PG is supposed to play, but he is NOT the best PG of all time. Magic is 1 and Zeke is 2. After those two there is room for all kinds of debates, but he did put up some insane numbers, and was durable as hell. Another thing, he should NOT have been on the Dream Team! The only reason he was was because of the ‘beef’ between Jordan and Zeke. Stockton is a HOFer and you have to respect what he did in his time, but he is in the second tier of PGs with Kidd, Payton, Archibald, Nash, etc…
April 9th, 2009 at 11:09 am
teegee says:
John Stockton was the best “pure PG” I’ve sever seen. Magic was the better all-around player, but I never considered him a pure PG.
What no one ever mentions about Stockton is that he set all these records DESPITE NOT EVEN BEING A FULL-TIME STARTER until his 4th season in the league. He was the back-up to Rickey Green his first couple of years. Can you imagine how much crazier his numbers would be if he had started from Day One of his career?
Some people say he’s not as great as Magic or Thomas because he wasn’t a big-time scorer. I think Stockton could have averaged close to 20 ppg if the team had needed him to (he averaged 20+ ppg his senior year at Gonzaga) — after all, he sho 51.5% from the field for his career (38.4% from the 3-point line). He only averaged 9 FGA/game! Compare that to Chris Paul, who has averaged 14.5 FGA/game so far in his career.
What may be most remarkable is that at age 40, in his final season, he still averaged 7.7 apg, even though he was playing fewer than 28 mpg. This season, there are just SEVEN players even averaging 7.7 apg, and ALL of them play at least 33 mpg!
Other crazy facts — th Jazz made the playoffs every season Stockton played, and he missed just 22 games his entire career — 4 games in 1989-90 and 18 in 1997-98 (after he had knee surgery). That’s just nuts — especially considering he asn’t a big guy, even for a PG.
April 9th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Jo Jo says:
Those are remarkable stats! But stats do not tell the entire story. Many people don’t think Kareem was the greatest scorer of all time. Does anyone think Karl Malone was the 2nd greatest scorer of all time? The only thing I’m saying is if you are picking players to play a game, a series, or a season….. Who is the first PG picked? & How many do you pick before you pick Stockton? I pick Magic, Isiah, Oscar (if you want to consider him a PG), and then I consider Stockton with the next tier of PGs. Now if you are saying that Stockton was the most durable PG of all time, I don’t think anyone would argue with you.
April 9th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Big Shot BOB says:
While we throwing out best point guards of all time don’t forget my other boy from the bay Gary Payton. Best defensive point guard of alltime.
April 11th, 2009 at 8:49 am
michaelphelps says:
To the idiot talking out his ass about Stockton not belonging on the DT, just take a look at the stats between Stock and Isiah in the two season preceding Barcelona.
Thomas – 90/91:16.9 ppg, 9.7 apg, 3.5 reb, 1.6 stl, 4.0 to FG% 43.5, 3P% 29.2
91/92 17.8 ppg, 6.9 apg, 3.0 rpg, 1.5 stl, 3.1 to, FG% 44.6, 3P% 29.1
Stockton – 90/91: 17.2 ppg, 14.2 apg, 2.9 rpg, 3.9 stl, 3.6 to, FG% 50.7, 3P% 34.5
91/92: 15.8 ppg, 13.7 apg, 3.3 rpg, 3.0 stl, 3.5 to, FG% 48.2, 3P% 40.7
Stockton’s offensive efficiency, a/to ratio, ballhawking, All-NBA selections (both overall, and defensively) blew Thomas’ away at that point in their careers. No way should he have been picked over Stockton for the Olympics.
That’s the pathetic revisionism of obsessive Bird/Magic “golden era” fans like Simmons, east coast writers and the casual sheeple that lap it all up.
April 11th, 2009 at 8:51 am
michaelphelps says:
Stock vs. Isiah
Posted by Neil Paine on December 5, 2008
One of my favorite things to do when looking at old basketball stats is to compare players with different reputations and see if perception agrees with reality. Sometimes, it does — any way you cut it, Michael Jordan was miles better than contemporaries like Dominique Wilkins or Clyde Drexler. Other times, though, it’s not so clear-cut — I present to you the case of Isiah Thomas v. John Stockton.
When they sit down to rank the “best point guards” or what have you, most people place Thomas slightly ahead of Stockton, primarily citing Isiah’s 2 championships (against Stockton’s zero) as the ringleader of the Detroit Pistons’ “Bad Boys” of the late 1980s. It seems to make sense, right? I mean, Thomas was brash and cocky, an in-your-face competitor who grabbed the spotlight in the game’s biggest moments; conversely, Stockton was unassuming and deferential, sometimes viewed as merely a cog (along with Karl Malone) in Jazz coach Jerry Sloan’s pick-n-roll machine. So on the face of it, it looks pretty obvious that Thomas’ career was superior to that of Stockton.
I’m here to challenge that assumption, however.
Don’t get me wrong, Isiah Thomas was a great player. He earned first- or second-team All-NBA honors 5 times, led the league in assists twice, and had many indelible moments in the crucible of the playoffs (remember his MVP performance in the 1990 Finals, or his 25 3rd-quarter points on a badly sprained ankle in Game 6 of the ‘88 Finals?). In fact, in the postseason — when most players’ numbers decline due to the increased strength of opponent — Isiah’s numbers actually improved markedly, from 6.78 career regular-season WS/3000 min. to 8.68 in the playoffs. Face it, the man was tough, and he was one of the clutchest scorers in NBA history.
But why is it a foregone conclusion that his body of work outpaces that of Stockton? Stockton led the league in assists 9 times in a row from 1988-1996. With 15,806 career helpers, he’s easily the league’s all-time leader — he has almost 5,500 more than runner-up Mark Jackson. Eight times he was 1st- or 2nd-team All-NBA. He made the All-Defensive team 5 times; he led the league in steals twice. In a rarity for a guard, his career FG% was .515 (by comparison, Thomas’ was .452). He missed out on the mythical 20,000-point club by a mere 289 points. Perhaps Stockton’s most amazing trait, though, was his durability: while Thomas played 979 career games and was oft-injured late in his 13-year career, Stockton suited up for 1,504 contests (3rd all-time) and missed only 22 games in 19 seasons!
You probably came here for the advanced statistical point of view, though, so here it is: Stockton had 205.4 career Win Shares (3rd all-time) in 19 years, for an average of 10.8 per season; per 3000 minutes, Stockton generated 12.9 wins for the Jazz over the course of his career. Eight times he finished in the league’s top 5 in Win Shares, his career offensive rating of 120.5 (which he accomplished while taking on 21.9% of Utah’s possessions when on the floor) ranks 4th in NBA history, and he had a career DRtg of 104.0 in an era where the league’s average was 106.7. By contrast, Thomas’s 80.3 career Win Shares ranks 88th all-time, and he averaged 6.2 per season; his career WS/3000 min. mark is 6.8. Only once (1984-85) did Isiah finish in the top 5 in WS, and he had a career ORtg of 106.3 and a DRtg of 106.8 in an era where the league’s average was 107.5. The only facets of the game where Isiah was superior to Stockton were his shot-creating ability (Thomas did take on 26.5% of Detroit’s possessions while on the court) and his rebounding (Thomas’ 5.3 career rebound rate is marginally better than Stockton’s 5.0), but in every other area — TS%, assist ratio, steal rate, etc. — Stockton kills Isiah in terms of regular-season numbers.
Oh, but what about the playoffs? After all, that’s where Isiah really made his money (and Stockton always failed)… right? Um, not quite. Stockton had 21.2 career playoff Win Shares; Thomas had 12.2. Stockton’s career playoff WS/3K rate: 9.94; Thomas’ rate: 8.68. Turns out that in the playoffs, it’s the same story as above: Isiah is superior in shot-creation and rebounding, but fails to outpace Stockton on the shooting, passing, and defensive fronts.
So why do people almost universally consider Thomas to be better than Stockton when they give their all-time point guard rankings? Stockton was more durable, more consistent, a better pure PG, more productive (both cumulatively and on a per-minute basis), and was even better in the playoffs, where Stock played a remarkable 182 career games. It is true that the Jazz never won an NBA crown with Stockton at the helm. It is also true that Isiah led Detroit to 2 rings. But hey, Robert Horry has 7 career rings, and no one is suggesting he’s better than Karl Malone. In other words, in light of the overwhelming evidence I’ve laid out above, isn’t it about time we reconsider the Stockton-Thomas debate?
April 12th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Jon Stevens says:
A lot of people are in the camp that considers Magic Johnson, the best PG ever. And although I grew up a Lakers fan, I never understood that. Magic is certainly the better overall player (imagine if John was 6’9″), but not a better (pure) PG. Magic himself, has proclaimed Stockton the greatest PG, and he’s Gary Payton’s # 1 too.
Do we really need any more evidence?
CASE CLOSED!
April 13th, 2009 at 10:47 pm
kowtz says:
No on will come close… not even chris pul… why? because every PG needs athleticism to do what they do…
Stockton was like watching chris mullin… basic, no hi hops, no flare, no show… just gets the job done in the simplest and easiest way possible… that’s why his body did not receive too much toll…
April 14th, 2009 at 8:20 am
berniemackdaddy says:
Stockton was hugely athletic. Athleticism isn’t just jumping ability.
Within or without basketball, Stockton was a freak. Magic was, too, but it many fail to realize just how special Stockton was not only mentally but physically.
He had a heartbeat half that of a normal man. He rarely if ever would sweat. This points to high endurance levels even beyond most athletes.
Considering those factors, it was probable that it was more Stockton’s DNA than Jerry Sloan’s substitution patterns that allowed him to play at an elite level into his 40s.
He also had huge hands. Guys like Kobe and Rasheed have smaller hands than Stockton.
And many forget or, by virtue of never watching him at his peak, fail to realize that he wasn’t “slow” at all but a very fast guard in his prime.
A guy like Steve Nash is really a system guy. D’Antoni and Stern’s creation. Stockton was a once in a generation type player as far as skillset, the unfortunate fact attached is that he played for the wrong organization and so this largely goes unnoticed, or is outright dismissed.
April 14th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Joe Popcorn says:
I am 24 and slightly out of shape. How many years do you think it would take me to get in great shape, assuming I worked really hard at it?
April 15th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Dave says:
Great article, Stockton was the greatest pg to play the game, Zeke wasn’t close other than a couple of years, Magic was awesome and is the only one in the same class as Stock. Not only was he a great player, but a great leader in the locker room and never showed any dis-respect to his coach. Too bad there aren’t players who are as dedicated to the game as John was. Thanks Dime for the read.
April 26th, 2009 at 8:36 am
Jay says:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestPointGuards
April 26th, 2009 at 8:41 am
Jay says:
Can’t believe you forgot to mention the Big ‘O’ and just left Isiah/Stockton in the conversation. Please click on the link I posted and see what EXPERTs have to say.
Magic is untouched. Why don’t you youtube some of Magic’s videos and then speak…or at least have some basketball knowledge before you do. I can’t believe I’m even commenting – I should have navigated away from this page after I pasted that link above.
Peace…
Jay
July 15th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
Alex Akopyan says:
Hey berniemackdaddy,
What does the size of ones’ hands have anything to do with their leaping ability, explosive speed, quickness & agility (the 4 components that sum up athleticism)? I’m a John Stockton supporter, and feel he was a great point guard (Top 5 all-time), but he was never athletic compared to the average NBA player, yet alone, compared to most other great NBA players. The same exact thing could be said for Bob Cousy, Reggie Miller, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird and probably a few others. John Stockton had quickness throughout his prime, which is just 1 of the 4 components of athleticism. He was never fast! What John Stockton did was show that you can be great even without athletic talent, and that is something we can all learn from.
September 11th, 2009 at 11:44 pm
G. McLaughlin says:
So we can say “whiteboy” freely now but not “blackboy”? John Stockton is amnd always will be the greatest)Irish-American) point guard who ever lived!