Is Kobe Bryant more deadly than Oscar Robertson?
Kobe Bryant (photo. Chris Sembrot)
I watch a lot of TV. No need to bother counting the hours; just know that when I’m working from home the TV is on pretty much all day, I usually watch basketball games at night, and I usually need the soft light of a nearly-mute TV to go to sleep. And that’s not to mention the “couples” shows I watch with my fiancee, who can be a TV beast in her own right.
That said, at any time of the year, there are a good 4-5 shows that I’d call “my favorite show.” And after this weekend, I’m moving “Deadliest Warrior” to the top of the list.
(For those who know the show already, excuse the blatant plug: “Deadliest Warrior” is a Spike TV show where two historic warriors are matched up in a hypothetical 1-on-1 battle. A team of scientists, doctors, historians and combat experts break down what each warrior brings to the table in terms of weapons, fighting style and intangibles, and then put all the measurable data into a computer program that simulates the battle 1,000 times to determine a winner. Some of the matchups they’ve done so far are Ninja vs. Spartan, Apache vs. Gladiator, and William Wallace vs. Shaka Zulu. And yes, it really hurt my heart to see Shaka fall onto one of Braveheart’s gigantic Claymore swords.)
So naturally, during Sunday’s “Deadliest Warrior” marathon, I started thinking that somebody needs to do this show for sports. What fan hasn’t argued Randy Johnson vs. Hank Aaron, Gale Sayers vs. Ray Lewis, or Al Davis vs. Sanity? Years ago, The Ring magazine put out an issue dedicated to dream boxing matchups — Tyson vs. Ali, Dempsey vs. Louis, etc. — that I still have to this day.
Taking it to basketball, I thought about it, and one DW-style matchup stood out above the rest: Oscar Robertson vs. Kobe Bryant.
Put each player in his respective prime: Kobe (circa 2003) is a 6-6, 200-pounder putting up 30 points, seven boards and six dimes per night. He can drive, hit from mid-range and hit threes, and can be an amazing defender. Oscar (circa 1964) is a 6-5, 205-pounder putting up 30 points, nine boards and 11 assists. He can post you up, hit from mid-range, and get to the bucket. Both guys are elite athletes, both have sky-high basketball IQ, both are determined to win at all costs.
Over the last couple years, as Kobe moves into his 30s, it seems appropriate to start putting his career and legacy in historical perspective. Is he closer to the 20th-best player of all-time, or the 10th-best player? Is he the second-best shooting guard to ever lace ‘em up behind Jordan, or is he more in the 5th-6th range? Are his three championships as a #2 option enough to put him above a guy like Larry Bird, who won three rings as the top dog?
Kobe has clearly benefitted from coming up in the age of the Internet, YouTube, 24-hour sports TV, overhype and knee-jerk judgments where everything is either “the best” or “the worst,” with no in-between. Not saying Kobe himself is overhyped, but 21st century players are routinely given more credit than old-school types because there’s just more visible evidence of their dominance, there are more and more experts in more and more outlets to sing their praises, and their performances are fresh in our minds.
Meanwhile, I’ve always thought Oscar was overlooked. I’d consider myself a guy who appreciates the forefathers and respects the elders of the game, and even I remember watching a VHS tape in college called The Big O: The Oscar Robertson Story and thinking, “Damn, I didn’t know he was THAT good!” Do yourself a favor and look him up.
Bottom line: Kobe may not be as good as a lot of people make him out to be, while Oscar may be better than he gets credit for. Overall, though, they are inarguably two of the greatest players to ever grace a basketball court.
But who is the deadliest warrior?
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June 1st, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Aaron says:
Deadliest Warrior: Mark Eaton or Arvydas Sabonis???
June 1st, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Rafa23 says:
“I watch a lot of TV. No need to bother counting the hours; just know that when I’m working from home the TV is on pretty much all day, I usually watch basketball games at night, and I usually need the soft light of a nearly-mute TV to go to sleep.”
LMFAO
when i got to the part with the sleep i suddenly thought i was reading something about me…
as for kobe and oscar:
its very hard for me to really tell how good oscar was outside of those numbers which were the best all around stats in nba history for the first few seasons.
so by that alone he deserves to be in the top 10 ever discussion.
kobe has 3 titles as a number 3 option for 3 quartes and number 1 in quarter 4, which makes a big differnce.
he was the best player in the league for at least 3-4 years, maybe longer. if he wins a title this year as the absolute leader he is in the top 10 discussion as well.
but comparing those two? cant do it
June 1st, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Rafa23 says:
* kobe has 3 titles as a number 2!! option…
June 1st, 2009 at 6:05 pm
dk says:
Its pretty obvious and even if you plug the numbers into Big Blue, Kobe dominates the match up 934 times out of a 1000. Oscar was a great player but the Mamba’s range, overall shot and quickness would prevail. One on one only Bron or Jordan could take Kobe.
June 1st, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Kevin says:
Really dk?! I could see a lot of 11-0 match-ups for and against Kobe if you include the all-time great bigs of the game.. it’d all depend on who got the ball first.
June 1st, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Kevin says:
..and that was a joke so please don’t respond to it
June 1st, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Big Aaron says:
So we’ve just substituted Kobe’s nuts for LeBron’s now The Queen is fishin’?
June 1st, 2009 at 6:43 pm
alex says:
oscar robertson is dead, so he is “deadliest”
June 1st, 2009 at 6:52 pm
foolio_iglesias says:
Staph infections got conjunctivitis licked…
June 1st, 2009 at 7:08 pm
JWM says:
The Big O average triple doubles for a season, twice. He did that on sub par Cincinnati Royal teams against Bill Russell’s Celtics and Elgin Baylor/Wilt Chamberlain’s Lakers. Oscar is the greater “warrior.” I say this with great respect for Kobe, his work ethic and talent.
June 1st, 2009 at 7:09 pm
that_dude says:
this is more accurate: jerry west vs kobe beans bryant?
June 1st, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Joshua says:
http://kall-jo.mybrute.com
June 1st, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Ian says:
jwm
he did it once but if u avg out his first three seasons u get a triple double also.
ok lets start with the question of whos deadliest of course its the big o.
now to the questions in the article
hes closer to 20th best than 10th.
second best sg well arguable the iceman didnt have shaq but west did have wilt.
do his three rings put him over bird? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
June 1st, 2009 at 7:44 pm
Ekstor says:
It’s hard to measure era vs era b/c the physical characteristics of opposing players have changed. For example, even back when MJ was playing, he was actually bigger than most of his defenders (i.e. Dumars, Starks, Ehlo, Scott, Hornacek, Maxwell, Richmond)… today Kobe (despite playing the same position and being the same height) is of average SG height and frequently outsized by his defenders (Bowen, Prince, Brewer, Battier, Artest, Butler, Pierce, etc).
Magic Johnson was a 5-position player back in the day, but would probably be a 3-position player today (4-positions only if playing against a small lineup).
I’m sure the difference is even more dramatic when going back to Oscar’s day, when 7-footers were few and far in between, where as today, every roster seems to have at least two. The difference in athleticism is remarkable as well.
That said, while Oscar would still be a great player today, he could not get a triple double in my opinion the way he did back then.
All other things being equal, I’d have to give Kobe the edge.
June 1st, 2009 at 7:48 pm
LakeShow84 says:
@ Ian
You cant compare accolades yet cuz Kobe isnt done accumulating championships..
Dont forget whos in the Finals competing for his 4th ring..
June 1st, 2009 at 7:56 pm
David_Brandon says:
man, i missed the one w/ shake zulu!! they said he lost?? what??! i dunno man…william wallace died in Braveheart. i’m thinkin the Old School Superman (see the post from earlier about dwight howard if this makes no sense) woulda beat him. damn shaka…
this is worse than the time marion berry got caught smokin rocks.
anyway back to hoop…
i dont wanna get stuck in the kobe is my dude, so i’m gonna roll w/ him blindly scenario. i really do think kb would give the big o a run. if kobe’s mid range game is on, its over. that simple. but if kobe gets trapped on the block enough times, i can see oscar getting the w. damn…i’m thinkin about and i still think kobe would win. its actually an injustice to oscar, honestly. we have so many clips to pull from for kobe w/ different moments of a game and different players he’s gotten the best of, but not nearly enough of the older players. (i.e. the 100 point game…) and for the reason ALONE, i’ll say kobe. i’ve seen him do it before. now if we say a match up like….oh, i dont know…..chris paul ’07 vs. ’80′s isiah thomas, then………
June 1st, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Dodge Taylor says:
“So naturally, during Sunday’s Deadliest Warrior marathon, I started thinking that somebody needs to do this show for sports.”
Ummm, isn’t this the premise for Rocky 6?
It sucks living in Australia and never getting half of the TV shows you guys talk about. That or we have to wait 6 months or so.
And finally, no offence, but great to hear William Wallace got the W!!
June 1st, 2009 at 9:04 pm
dk says:
@16 Your one of five people that seen that, sorry, if we dont comprehend the reference.
June 1st, 2009 at 9:10 pm
K Dizzle says:
Firtst off, the only fair matchup for kobe in his prime is Mike. I love oscar and i think he better than Kobe(and I’m a Laker fan so please believe)
But the better matchup would be Oscar vs. LBJ.
Their careers might even play out the same way. Oscar avgd a triple double and Bron is the only one who can even think about thet right now(in another life, Lamar odom could avg that over a full season too)
Imagine LBJ not winnin a ring till he’s in his thirties playin with a young stud big man, maybe Mullens or Cousins. Remember Oscar didn’t win til he got Kareem.
June 1st, 2009 at 9:31 pm
dk says:
@19 The triple doubles dont mater people its, warior vs. warrior.
June 1st, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Big Island says:
Comparing guys from different eras is always tough because they didn’t have as much knowledge of the physical part. I can’t think of a way to say the older guys didn’t have the weightrooms, training, 3 point line, shoes… If a knee went out, guys were done. Oscar would be 220, he would have a 3 point line, he would have the refs. Oscar would win but Kobe does deserve to be up there in discussions about top guys. Not with Bird (I still hate him), not Magic (who would still play point and kill guys), not MJ. You could put him in the Shaq/Barkley talks. Top 50 – given. Top 20 – given. Top 10, maybe a few years after he’s done and people can think about it.
June 1st, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Austin Burton says:
@Big Island — I’ve written about that before, the calibration theory:
http://dimemag.com/2008/06/old-school-vs-new-school-nba/
June 1st, 2009 at 10:21 pm
ur brother says:
just had taliban vs. ira, haha
June 1st, 2009 at 10:34 pm
WestCoastMike says:
C’mon! William Wallace won a close battle with Shaka Zulu just like Kobe would win a close battle ever the big “O”.
June 1st, 2009 at 10:44 pm
UncheckedAggression says:
If we are talking just a game of 1 on 1, then I would lean towards Kobe. He is without question one of the best scorers to have played basketball. Of course, I have seen little of O (as it has been pointed out) and cannot make a completely fair comparison. They both play great D, but Kobe would be able to put in buckets at a faster clip. I think.
June 1st, 2009 at 11:08 pm
Big Island says:
Austin – Thanks for pointing that out. The next drunken argument I have with my friends, I am going to reference your article.
June 1st, 2009 at 11:11 pm
Ian says:
lakeshow
sorry but the article says kobes three rings now not what he might get in the future.
and sorry still one ring being the man isnt enought to leap frog the back to back to back mvp
June 1st, 2009 at 11:34 pm
"Tha Boddy" DOCTOR LOVE!!! says:
Deadliest To Their Own Career NBA/NFL
Sean Williams(Nets) Brandon Marshall(Broncos)
Seeing as though Marshall can still get on his respective field i’d have to say Sean Williams of the Nets has killed his career
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:06 am
Justin Solomon says:
@ Austin,
I think if you are a basketball fan (hypothetical), you would already understand that the “Big O” is one of the greatest to ever lace em up. Oscar was a complete player (as evidenced by averaging a triple double!!) and should be considered as one of the, if not the best of all time. I see three players that changed the game and can be considered the best ever. They are Oscar Robertson, Bill Russell, and Michael Jordan. Robertson was a complete player, while Russell dominated the defense end, and we all know what MJ did with the rock. That being said, Russell could put the ball in the hole, just like MJ could lock people up. Getting back to the point though, the second coming of Robertson appears to be the player who is currently the best overall in the league. Lebron James is the best right now and ultimately will end up taking the “warrior” crown from Robertson. Kobe is most likely the second best player in today’s game, but when comparing to other current NBA stars, he is more in line with Dwanye Wade than Lebron James. Let me know what you think.
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:18 am
QQ says:
@ 8:
So it was Big O’s ghost that presented the East Champions trophy to the Magic? I knew there was something creepy goin on while I was watching that!
Hmmm…
I think Kobe will end up in the top 10 when he retires, and if he wins, can be top 5. What Oscar did in his era is unheard of (triple dub), and what Kobe did in this era is also mind blowing (81 damn points). Honestly, I think Kobe is not getting enough credit for what he is doing in this generation. When kids 20-30 years from now look back in this generation and see what Kobe has done, they’ll shit their pants seeing what he put up the same way we’re shitting our pants thinking what Oscar Robertson did in the 60′s.
Sorry Big O. I think Kobe is the deadliest warrior…
Until the next article when we insert Michael Jordan in the discussion.
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:24 am
Promoman says:
This is a good question since both players aren’t justly given their due when you think about it. Most of Oscar Robertson’s stats weren’t recorded and the 3pt. shot didn’t exist in a good deal of his athletic career. He’s higher in the stat side of things than we’ll ever know. He’s one of the handfull of players who you could argue as being as good or better than Jordan. Kobe’s been dealt a somewhat unfair hand when it comes to image. Even before the rape trail, he caught hate from teammates and the public alike for choosing to make himself better since Day 1. He wasn’t the man but he chose to put the work that’s necessary to become a champion & future HOF’er. He’s got character issues but so did/does the some other players that get passes for the shit they did/do: MJ (would ride teammates to the point of them asking to leave, usually needlessly), Shaq/Barkley (neither are the model for hard work/defense/conditioning, yet bitch and complain about other players in a heartbeat), Isiah, AI (practice?) and Magic (he started the players getting coaches fired trend).
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:26 am
DarthKeller says:
To answer this (in my opinion):
The ability to take over a game belongs to Kobe
The overall athletics belong to the Big-O (triple-double for a season, c’mon!)
June 2nd, 2009 at 2:19 am
Ian says:
QQ
kobe is top 20 right now if he wins on his own then he might crack the top ten
he has zero chance at the top 5 imo look at the resumes of
wilt
td
shaq
mj
bird
big o
moses
kareem
russell
magic
even with with one more ring i cant put kobe ahead of any of them.
lakeshow im being real now no hate talk.
June 2nd, 2009 at 2:37 am
kevin K says:
Brian Scalabrene could have avg triple double the way these old guys play…. god it’s like watching U 13 AAU games
June 2nd, 2009 at 3:17 am
q says:
Kobe’d average 50-15-15 in these old days.
June 2nd, 2009 at 3:43 am
Seven Duece says:
This is a toffy dude! On one hand, we see Kobe sh*t on people every other day. On the other, only the ELITE players made the league in Oscar’s day. No 30 team league back then. Hell the league is still trying to stock talent due to the expansion teams watering the level down.
June 2nd, 2009 at 6:50 am
SparkyJ23 says:
Kobe would try some of that “bail me out ref” nonsense and just get put on his ass
To put it in context the best point guards just about manage 11 dines a game
The Best rebounder not named Centaur 11.8 rebounds
And our scoring leader? 30.2 points a game
And none of those players in the first 2 catagories have ever been Kobe so yeah The big O would kick his ass
June 2nd, 2009 at 9:09 am
E$ says:
The fact you watch alot of TV, shows why your making a dumb comparison of Kobe to Oscar Robertson. Pick up a book called “THE BIG O” & you will not make this mistake again.
Do people not remember kobe raped a girl? That puts him out of being compared to greats like BIG O
June 2nd, 2009 at 9:43 am
karizmatic says:
Kobe is a top 20 all time player not top 10, if he wins on his won he might be considered a top 10 type. To many people’s chagrin I’ve always considered Kobe more of a Scottie Pippen without Jordan type talent than an actual Jordan type of talent. Kobe’s slightly better than Pip simply because of shot range and clutch shooting I suppose. But then I think Pip is sorely underrated, Pip is was also a better defender than Kobe, despite all the accolades he gets for being a “lockdown defender.” In short if we wouldn’t consider Pip on the level of a Big O I don’t think we should consider Kobe on that level either. I mean Big O averaged triple doubles. Kobe is great and all but not that great.
I would like to add though that it is really hard to compare them, they simply played different styles of basketball, Kobe was heavily influenced by Jordan, Big O was playing in a era where it wasn’t necessarily all about scoring it was about being a complete player. Who knows if Kobe would have been able to average a triple double if he really put his mind to it.
June 2nd, 2009 at 10:06 am
BERN BROGDEN aka BINO BROWN STR8 UP N DOWN says:
I think KOBE is the single most DEADLY player on the court.
And I think he’s held this title since 2000.
His accuracy AND boatload of basketball moves makes him the DEADLIEST.
He does most of his work with ENTIRE PROFESSIONAL NBA DEFENSES FOCUSED ON HIM.
His production in the face of THAT…
is AMAZING.
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:27 am
David_Brandon says:
@ dk,
you havent seen BRAVEHEART????
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:20 pm
doc says:
Give me Kobe.Them old players I know were good for they time but they look like garbage when I sit down and watch a game.Im starting to think Wilt never scored 100 too.How come the shit not on tape?It was 1962.I done seen old game footage from the 50′s old boxing footage of Jack Johnson.Why the hell do we only have a pic of Wilt holding up some bullshit peice of paper with 100 on it.Im calling bullshit on Wilt 100.
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:22 pm
doc says:
Where are him and Bill 50 rebound games at.I’ll tell u where in bullshit land.I’ve seen a old Celtic game on TV plenty of times and I aint seen a 30 board game yet but let old people tell it he average that with 10 blocks.I dont see it when they show it though.
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:55 pm
E$ says:
Kobe, despite all the accolades he gets for being a “lockdown defender.”
LMAO…why does he guard Battier & Linas Kleiza – What game are some of you watching?
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:40 pm
fatty says:
When did the L change the rules for an assist? previously you couldnt even dribble prior to the shooting – now you can do a basketball move and make the bucket its an assist. the big O might have had 15 assist under the new rules. And all yall talking about kobes range, they didnt even have three pointers when oscar played; moot point then in my book.
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:45 pm
kevin K says:
@ doc
when they tip the ball couple times trying to grab them boards were probably counted as a rebound LOL :0
June 2nd, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Claw says:
People dissing the Old School, what do you think would happen if you took the NBA and cut out half the teams today, so now half the scrubs would be out of a job.
Think the talent might be a tad higher after that? That is what is was like back in the day. Just like the NFL there was none of this crap of calling fouls because a guy touched your back and you could flop and act like somebody shot you and the refs would call a foul. They used to ball, smack, and hit guys this isn’t your powder puff NBA of today with nearly 100 FTs being shot a game.
You can’t take a player like Kobe and put him back in time and think he would be the same player, the game isn’t like its been stagnant for 20 years there is always something lifting it up and making it fresher each year.
Big O “averaged” a triple dipple, Kobe has game but he would be beasted by the big O.
June 5th, 2009 at 10:22 am
BullySixChicago says:
Those of you who did not see Oscar Robertson would certainly say Kobe is better, but those us that did see the big O know for certain that Kobe could not guard Oscar at any time. Until MJ arrive Oscar had to be the best ever. Not only is he the only player to avg a triple double for an entire season but if you add up his first 5 seasons together he would have avg a triple doube for 5 years, now you compare that with Kobe’s best 5 years and it wont even come close. I mean why are you trying to compare Oscar and Kobe the question should be addressed to Magic who many consider the best point guard ever those people that have Magic as the best never saw Oscar Robertson play Oscar did every thing better than magic except have the players around him to win momre than one NBA title
June 8th, 2009 at 5:52 am
MCDRLx says:
@ E$
There’s absolutely nothing else in the world that riles me as much as the whole “Kobe is a rapist” claim still perpetuated by people who don’t know what they’re talking about.
And since when did athletes’ personal lives get in the way of their professional legacies?
December 24th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
cory says:
no respect for history see what u dont understand 20 years from now there will be some nut nose kids saying the players in the future are better than the jordans of the world and i would no whos really better because ive seen the jordan bryants robertsons play
December 24th, 2009 at 8:54 pm
cory says:
oscar is better than jordan if not there side by side
December 24th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
cory says:
see osacr was stronger than jordan big boned and he was quick stop watching old clips when he was about done playing