What is “cheating” in sports?
Stephen Jackson
Last weekend’s Baseball Hall of Fame coverage was as much about Ricky Henderson (one of my all-time favorite athletes) and Jim Rice as it was about the old issue of steroids in baseball. Then, like always, the HOF coverage led to another round of Pete Rose debates. Then today, news broke of Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz failing steroid tests.
The concept of “cheating” in sports is one everybody is familiar with, because the ideal of fair play is one we’ve all had preached to us since the only games we knew were Tag and Catch. When I was a kid and our Little League football team suffered a rare loss, there was always lots of crying and accusations of the refs cheating. When I grew up and started covering grown-up sports for a living, I saw even more crying and accusations of refs and opposing players cheating. And being in the media, I’m right in the storm when my kind gets all moralistic and spouts off about cheating — especially in baseball.
One of the interviews I saw over the weekend was with MLB Hall of Famer Gaylord Perry, a known “cheater” who famously doctored the ball when he pitched. And on NFL Network the other night, I watched a show about the 1970s Raiders, who took advantage of every loophole in the rulebook to get an edge. But guys like Perry and the ’70s Raiders get a pass for some reason; their actions are looked at with a laugh and a shake of the head, while guys like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens have their credentials run through the mud even if there’s not a positive steroid test to their name. Fans, media and ex-players get on their high horses about the “purity” and the “good ol’ days,” but I’m supposed to think pre-Steroid Era players didn’t bend the rules at all? Nobody was stealing signs, doctoring the balls, doctoring the bats and sharpening their spikes?
So what exactly is “cheating” when it comes to sports? And what makes one form of “cheating” worse than another? If you take the steroids that are actually against the law to possess out of the picture (a.k.a your After-School Special Steroids), what makes the other banned substances and supplements that baseball players, football players, track athletes and swimmers get caught taking any worse than our more accepted forms of performance enhancement? When Andrei Kirilenko staves off an ankle injury by getting a cortisone injection, is that not a performance enhancer? He’s producing one of the body’s natural steroids in an unnatural way, which isn’t that far off from, say, boosting one’s testosterone levels. And what is natural about Tommy John or microfracture surgery? If we were really supposed to be all “natural,” Jason Kidd‘s f***ed up knee would just be Jason Kidd’s f***ed up knee, and he’d be done. Maybe I’m wrong, but rebuilding a joint with another, stronger body part sounds performance-enhancing to me.
A few months ago, I read this column by Matt Watson at NBA Fanhouse exploring the idea of a potential steroid problem in pro basketball. Highlighted in the piece was Stephen Jackson, who put on extra muscle last offseason through methods that sounded a lot like that of a steroid “cheater.” Or you could chalk up Jackson’s regimen to simply knowing his supplements and spending more time in the weight room. But if it was “cheating,” where is that line and how do we define it?
For the record, I don’t see why performance-enhancement in sports is even a big deal. Damn near all of us are competitive by nature, so we’ll always be looking to get an edge. And as medical science keeps introducing new ways for athletes to get better, we need to adapt. For a sport like track and field, where lots of money is won and lost in the span of a tenth of an inch or a hundredth of a second, I get it. But for the baseballs, basketballs and footballs of the world, it all seems like an overreaction.
What are your thoughts on “cheating” in sports?
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July 30th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
JHov says:
My friends comment on cheating in sports is that the PED’s the players took in 2003 were not illegal then so therefore they didn’t cheat..I couldn’t disagree more! Those players were all adults and knew what they were doing to their bodies could have adverse affects but did it anyway..to get that extra strength or sign the bigger deal! unfair advantage=cheating
July 30th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Taj says:
Baseball is one of those “purists” sports in America thats been around for a hundred plus yrs, so the die hard fans always hate it because the Ty Cobbs and Lou Gerighs, etc. of the world played the game the “right way”. No matter what sport you play you still need an extreme level of skill even though guys are gtting juiced up. In baseball I don’t think PED’s should be a big deal, the majority of the league was doing it at its hayday, so everyone was on a relatively even keel! Same thing with track and field, if the majority of the guys/girls running were on something, would we not pay to see what times guys are gonna run next?
Basketball and football being such physical sports it would be an issue if these guys were getting yoked up on roids… Imagine driving the lane on a roided up Shaq or D12?? LOL… All the fun would be taken out of the game!
July 30th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
SWAT says:
i never understood the baseball beef…the eye hand coordination doesnt get better w/ roids. I understand dude can bang it out of the park and maybe run faster but if he cant hit or catch the ball wht good is being ripped? Not a real big baseball fan so maybe im way off. good article austin.
did you see michael phelps lost a race the other day and phelps’ people basically blamed it on the other dude’s trunks doing the swimming for him…? didnt make much sense to me but phelps people were calling the dude a cheater since these “special” shorts were going to be banned next year. i think cheating is really just a point of view or maybe it depends on side of the contest you are on. Now there are obvious exceptions to this (ex. Tony dungy-lol)but it all comes down to perspective…just my thoughts…
July 30th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
Taj says:
You just love pushing buttons today… LOL!!!
July 30th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
Jerkbag says:
wow ur high today.
July 30th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
smoove chips says:
cheating is the shit that makes you not wanna shake your opponents hand after a loss(insert any Bron joke here)
If j kidd beat me,even humiliated me.i’d shake on that even knowing he had a cortisone shot.
if on the other hand i knew he was beasting me because over the course of a summer he now looks like the hulk and can actually leap 3 yao mings in a single bound.i can’t respect it.
any player knows it when they hear it.at minimum it’s a gut feeling.
besides roids aint legal so inherently there are some guys getting royally flucked for doing the ‘right’ thing.
if it’s legalized then bring this shyt back and we can chop it up.
deuces.
July 30th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
RonnaBonBon says:
LeBron had his vision improved to 30/20
thats an unfair advantage IMO
is it cheating?
July 30th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
Patrick says:
Steroids is only a problem in amateur sports and that is why it’s a problem in pro sports. To be honest it doesn’t bother me at all. If someone finds a way to play the game better then do it. I would definitely take steroids if it meant being better at my job and turning a meager salary into zillions of dollars. Like I said the only issue is for people who don’t make that leap by cheating. It isn’t worth it for the high school lineman who jumps up to 240 all jacked up and still isn’t worthy of a major D1 look.
July 30th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Ian says:
austin im with you on this one if you suck and roid up you will still suck period. you guys think manny would turn into rey ordonez if he didnt use steroids?
taj
sorry but basketball falls abit short compared in the strength departmen with football and baseball. remember kobe the season he went hulk? i think its bs in sports but basketball is the one the really doesnt need it.
July 30th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Nukky G. says:
Interesting examples AB…
When you look at things such as J-Kidd’s knee or cortisone shots, I agree, they definately seem “performance enhancing”. Cheating? Maybe Yes, maybe no? Performance Enhancing? Certainly.
So where do we go from here?
I suppose it all depends on what kind of people the ones running the leagues are. Are they the stop- it-completely-before-it-gets-worse type or the type to just try to curb the impact because they know it can’t be stopped completely?
For example, look at video games. For years, video games have been blamed for making the youth lazy and making them less active. The Stop-It-Completely approach would be to try and ban certain games, ban personal consoles from schools etc. The Curb-The-Impact approach would be to do what Nintendo did with the Wii and make a system that at least makes the kids a LITTLE active…cuz they know the kids are gonna game regardless.
Neither approach is more righteous than the other, it’s just a matter of preference.
Bud Selig’s message clearly indicates he’s the Stop-It-Completely type but maybe one day he’ll change.
July 30th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
Nukky G. says:
Sorry for the misplaced question marks…
July 30th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
kevin k says:
AB, I could clearly see and understand your point of view except that shooting up steroids are ILLEGAL not just in sports but in the United States.
July 30th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
Buffalo Brave says:
Player A takes steroids and now can hit the ball an extra 25 to 40 feet.
That’s the difference between the warning track and the second deck, i dont see how that isnt a unfair advantage especially when you consider it’s against the rules and the majority (imo) are not doing it.
Or say for example a career backup NBA center all of a sudden is jumping 6 inches higher and getting more dunks, blocks and rebounds than another used to be equal career backup.
How is that not a unfair advantage?
July 30th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
J.Hicks says:
@kevin k — Actually most of the stuff you see athletes caught with aren’t illegal steroids. It’s some kind of over-the-counter/prescription stuff that has been banned by a league but is legal for regular people to take. I think that’s what AB is referring to.
July 30th, 2009 at 8:27 pm
Oscarisalakerfan says:
Nice Article AB
It happens everywhere
July 30th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Heckler...formerly 'Yallallreadyknow' says:
PED don’t even really work. They change your body, yes thats true. But they don’t add skill.
For instance, either you can hit a major league breaking ball or you cant. A PED is not gonna help you with that. As a 3rd baseman, either you can throw ball on a line to 1st base to get a runner out, or you can’t. a PED is not going to help you.
PEDs don’t add skill. especially in baseball. baseball is an average mans sport (unlike basketball where the players are of unnatural height). if we all start taking PEDs for 3 weeks—you mean to tell me we could step into a major league ballpark and hit a curve ball 550ft?
Seriously.
think of it like this….
if Shaquille O’Neal took PEDs (steroids or HGH), would he become an 85% free throw shooter?
July 30th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Ender says:
The NBA has a 10 year old doping policy. How much has doping changed in 10 years? A whole bunch. If NBA players were held to the same standards as other sports, you would see a large number of suspensions.
Also, steroids are not just for bulking up, otherwise bike racers wouldn’t have such a problem, and Roger Clements would not have been visiting congress. They can also be used for recovery and endurance. I would strongly suspect that Kobe used them in this way after the Houston series. Recent history has shown that when something superhuman happens in competitive sports, there is often doping behind it.
July 30th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
Dagomar says:
Steroids are fine and Toronto is tiny. Guess Dime’s traffic has been going down in the offseason.
July 30th, 2009 at 10:08 pm
Ansonious says:
@ Austin Burton
Finally someone who actually makes sense on a subject that is talked about more than our failing economy. Nice!
July 30th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
Celts Fan says:
Of course PEDs don’t add skill, but it makes you stronger, which enhances your natural skill (Buffalo Brave has the perfect examples at post 13.) If that enhancement gets you a roster spot over a guy who’s clean, how’s that fair?
Having said all that, if I could gain a $100M contract instead of an average deal, bring on the bacne.
July 30th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
BRUCE says:
To quote — If you ain’t cheating, you ain’t trying!
July 30th, 2009 at 10:35 pm
KanDman says:
Remember a while back when MLB used homeruns as part of their marketing “Chicks love the long ball”. I think it featured Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa. MLB wanted more home runs. Plater contracts had home run incentives. Thats not cheating, thats following orders
July 30th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
Sanpitch says:
Cheating is cheating and has been going on for a long time. I don’t think there has ever been a time when there wasn’t cheating going on.
The question isn’t “What is cheating?” We all know what is cheating, the question is how much are we going to tolerate?
In my job I am considered a Professional at what I do. I had to get licensed and certified to do what I do. I had to pass an ethics test in order to become licensed. If I do anything “unethical”, aka cheating, then I can lose my license and depending on how bad it is I can go to jail. Does cheating or unethical stuff go on in my profession? I would be a fool to say no. There are always those type of people. But for the most part I like to think that the others in my profession respect the title and profession enough to keep a high integrity and keep it professional. I hope they value the profession as much as I do.
I hope professional athletes are held to the same standard that us in the work force are held to. If I break the ethics code that I agreed to I lose my license, job and am subject to legal action. Why shouldn’t a professional athlete be held to the same standard?
Does cheating happen? Of course, it has happened and is happening in all sports. I think if they cheat then their asses need to be fired, legal action taken and no HOF.
In Austin Burton’s profession there are rules he is to abide by, plagiarism being an example. If Austin “cheats” and plagiarizes an article and claims it as his own, then he is subject to penalty by Dime Mag and could face legal action by the person he plagiarized. I don’t get why professional athletes think or we as a society think they should be held at a different standard.
Cheating has ruined baseball for me. I don’t even watch anymore and don’t believe any records set in that sport. I know cheating goes on in every sport, and when an athlete does anything remarkable I always question if the cheated. So cheating has tarnished each sport for me whenever something remarkable goes on.
Come on people!
July 30th, 2009 at 11:29 pm
BoJo says:
So I just read the first comment and decided to comment. What most people don’t tell you is that all illegal substances in the US are illegal in baseaball. So the “cream” and the “clear” had what was an illegal steriod in them. So therefore are illegal in baseball. Back in the day(forgive me I do not feel like looking up the year) they passed a CBA that had a short list of banned substances, but also stated any drug illegal to posses in the United States is also a banned substance in MLB. So the argument that these things were not banned by baseball is completely incorrect. They were illegal in the US so they are cheating in baseball.
Honestly, the whole debate about the Tommy Johns surgey is stupid to bring up. That is a question of comfort for one and it is not illegal in the US. Surgery is common and should not be banned it is not performance enhancing but performance recovering.
July 30th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
Greg says:
I think steroids and hgh would be a huge boost for a nba player. You have to have the skills first of all, like in any sport but if you have them, then being able to jump higher, run faster and very importantly, not tire out in the fourth would be huge benefits. Lebron wouldn’t be Lebron if he wasn’t the fastest guy in the open court and Wade wouldn’t be Wade if he couldn’t jump as explosively as he does.
There has to be steroids in basketball. All the other sports have users and only basketball is clean? Come on.
July 30th, 2009 at 11:57 pm
Mannywood29 says:
Good article. I’ve been saying for years that the only way to level the playing field would be to make PEDs legal for all sports. Throw caution to the wind, these athletes are making TONS of money for supposedly entertaining us, I say they need to take more PEDs and make it even more fun for the fans.
In fact, they should make taking steroids a sport in itself. If they made a 12 week reality show about a buncha dudes taking steroids and seeing who can grow the largest, I think half of America would watch.
July 31st, 2009 at 12:59 am
BR says:
I don’t think some people here get it. It’s not about improving your hand-eye coordination, or Shaq shooting 85% from the stripe, it’s about the strength, speed, and stamina. Turning a warning track ball into a home run or getting up the court faster is the kind of stuff we’re talking about.
July 31st, 2009 at 2:19 am
nosmelone says:
I think a lot of the problem is the athletes themselves. Maybe I was raised completely different than the rest of the world but how can you sleep at night or be proud of a game you won or a play you made if you cheated? Where’s the morals?
I play basketball all the time and take it very seriously. I have friends who like me take it very serious and will do almost anything to win. They’ll foul constantly or hold your jersey/shirt, trip ya (supposedly on accident). These are all very little things that the average person overlooks and keeps playing. I’m a finess type of player, aggressive at times but I only foul on accident. If I can’t stop a player I will call for a double team or switch with another defender. I couldn’t imagine winning a game and being happy knowing I had to cheat to stop my man. If the average athlete had a little bit of morals or a concious that was worth anything, his pride would stop him from cheating on the small things and the larger things like HGH or performance enhancements of anykind would be completely out of the picture and not even a question.
July 31st, 2009 at 2:43 am
dagood says:
@Austin you lost some credibility with the cortisone comparison. Using medical treatment to recover from a legitimate injury is completely different from using dangerous chemicals to enhance your healthy body.
July 31st, 2009 at 5:34 am
kowtz says:
Hahahaha… If this shit falls through, then all boxers would have bone implants on their knuckles… and MMA Fighters would implant steel sheets in their shins and elbows…
July 31st, 2009 at 8:10 am
shake&bake says:
People complain about baseball and say that steroids created an un-level playing field. If there were over 100 people who tested positive out of their sample, that’s a level enough playing field for me.
I say anything that will make baseball less boring if fine with me.
July 31st, 2009 at 9:04 am
Chicagorilla says:
great article. I’d like to point out that a lot of people talk about the “good ole days” when referring to steroids and cheating.
I always point out that Black people were not allowed to play in major sports for half of the 19th century. So all those records that were racked up were not against the best talent available at the time. It’s widely considered amongst baseball enthusiast (who actually know what they are talking about) that Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson would have dominated the MLB back in the day. Josh was the black babe Ruth and Satchel played in the MLB and dominated when he was damn near 154yrs old! Seriously though, I think he won the rookie of the year award when he was almost 40yrs old.
So is that not a form of cheating? Same thing happened in basketball and football. All sports that black people were not allowed full participation in for half the century. Unwritten rules in basketball only allowed 2 blacks to start on the road and 1 at home, and if you wanted to win you start 3.
July 31st, 2009 at 9:35 am
QQ says:
Another absolutely retarded article!
“what is natural about Tommy John or microfracture surgery? If we were really supposed to be all “natural,” Jason Kidd’s f***ed up knee would just be Jason Kidd’s f***ed up knee, and he’d be done. Maybe I’m wrong, but rebuilding a joint with another, stronger body part sounds performance-enhancing to me.”
Yeah, this is the stupidest comment of the day. Seriously DIME, how do morons like this get jobs?
Makes no sense.
July 31st, 2009 at 9:51 am
Bobby says:
Steroids and HGH are in basketball. Some of these athletes come back from the summer all bulked up, ie when Melo came back from that summer all bulked up. His skinny frame all of a sudden added about 20-30 lbs of muscle in one summer!!
Don’t tell me ‘roids doesn’t effect the game. Jumping 3-6 inches higher now allows to grab rebounds you couldn’t. Running faster now allows you to finish a fast break that normally you wouldn’t be able to.
Roids and HGH are in every sport. Call me old fashioned but I couldn’t face myself knowing I cheated the sport and profession I am a part of.
Stern needs to enforce some ‘roid or HGH rules, cuz I know it’s going on in the NBA. I know their is a drug test for meth and cocaine, but I have never heard anything about roids or HGH.
July 31st, 2009 at 9:56 am
F says:
Austin,
I think you’re right to bring up the problem of assessing what is cheating (doping) and what is not, and how subjective this assessment can be, but I think you’re completely wrong on your conclusion… And I guess (hope) you don’t truly realize the extent of it…
Ultimately, the question is NOT the one of money. It is mainly the one of health. For sure, there is more doping where there is money (hence making sure that sports is not all about money); for what sports represent, for it is only a magnified representation of what “real life” is, burn those f—– steroids and EPO and blood self-transplants, etc…, and eat your carrots!
Really I don’t care for the show, or the money or all of that, I care for watching people surpassing themselves to achieve a great performance. Point blank.
When I was a kid, I watched cycling; now that we’re aware of what was and is going on in this sport, I have stopped watching it.
Track and fields? I know you mostly don’t care for it in the US, but since maybe half of the medal winners of the last 15 years (A LOT of them from the US) have been convicted of doping or associated with it a way or another, I’ve mainly stopped following…
(And I think you’re wrong on cortisone, who is a known doping substance, and is banned by most federations.)
July 31st, 2009 at 10:05 am
Beau says:
Cortisone shots, or surgery is not the same. They are not enhancing, they are repairing. If you take a cortisone shot you are not enhancing your ability you are merely bringing it back to where it was before an injury. Athletes are allowed to use steroid prescribed by doctors for rehabilitative reasons. Steroids are cheating. It gives you an unfair and unnatural advantage. Imagine a boxing match were one guy gets to wear a helmet and put rocks in his gloves. Lets apply it to basketball. Lets say you had to play 1 on 1 with someone of equal ability, but you have to wear a 50 lb weight vest and he doesn’t. That isn’t fair at all. Now, if he was on steroids and you weren’t wouldn’t that create the same effect? Its cheating guys.
July 31st, 2009 at 10:13 am
Jsmoove says:
I agree with QQ and others who think the comparison of steriods etc to tommy john’s and microfracture is asinine.
If such procedures are indeed performance enhancing, why is it that pitchers often aren’t the same after tommy john’s? Why is Penny Hardaway now forgotten? Why is Jamal Mashburn workin at ESPN? The list goes on. By this logic, Zydrunas’ foot surgery was supposedly “performance enhancing” yet all the man does is stand around until LBJ gives him the ball to shoot.
The difference is that medical procedures correct problems to give that person back the abilities that a normal person already has, i.e. WALKING WITHOUT PAIN, and things of that nature. Roids, on the other hand give you abilities that normal people do not posses.
July 31st, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Chicagorilla says:
everyone who is saying that basketball players using steroids is an unfair advantage I have this to say
How many of you have played ball with an athletic football player who could run like a cheetah and jump out the gym? Sure he could dunk or run fast, but more times than not he can’t dribble worth a shit. He can’t shoot. He can’t get rebounds over people who KNOW how to rebound and box-out.
A great example is the AND 1 mix tape tour. Guys like Spider, Helicopter, Baby Shaq, and Air up There all have extreme hops. Some of the best I’ve ever witnessed. Yet only one of them is a true baller (Baby Shaq) and he still can’t make it to the L.
Steroids is highly overrated as far as what they can help a player do. Steroids weaken your vision and that can’t be a good thing in sports. In highly skilled sports like baseball and basketball, it would not benefit you to use them. Football and track, Absolutely.
I think you all are misunderstanding what an athlete goes through when using steroids and how it truly effects the body. Those guys/girls STILL HAVE TO WORK OUT. There is no magic steroid bean that just makes you fast and strong. You actually HAVE TO HIT THE GYM DAILY AND LIFT WEIGHTS. The steroid just allows your body to recover faster and lift longer, which allows you to build more muscle. Doesn’t really seem like cheating, seems like these athletes just worked their ass off to get stronger.
July 31st, 2009 at 1:21 pm
dagood says:
@chicagorillapilla that is such bull. You need skill and to know how to play, but athleticism and strength also play a huge role in basketball, just ask Lebron or Ben Wallace for example.
July 31st, 2009 at 1:24 pm
dagood says:
if steroids are allowed, then we can expect multiple health problems and many early deaths – check the WWE for evidence – but, hey, it sure would be entertaining!
July 31st, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Chicagorilla says:
@dagood
Athleticism is highly overrated in basketball, baseball, and boxing. Anyone with true knowledge of the sport know that you have to have a high level of skill to be effective on the professional level.
Gerald Green, James White, Tyrus Thomas, Nate Robinson, and Mike Taylor are all top tier athletes in the NBA. Carlos Gomez and Joey Gathwright are two of the best athletes in baseball. But none of them have the skill needed to play ahead of players in their respective sports like Josh Howard (Gerald Green), T-Mac (James White), Brad Miller (tyrus Thomas), Chris Duhon (Nate Robinson), Baron Davis (mike Taylor), Michael Cuddyer (Carlos Gomez), Fukedome (J.Gathwright).
It’s because Skill outweighs athleticism in these sports. Now take football for example. More about athleticism right? Devin Hester was a terrible Corner Back, but he was fast as shit so he was drafted to return kicks. Now he is a low level skill receiver who is #1 on the depth charts because he provides Jay cutler the option of the long ball. Is he a better player than a guy like Donald Driver? Nope, but he is more effective (and makes more $ I believe) on the field because of his super natural speed on returning kicks and running fly patterns.
Some of you should stop just believing what you heard on ESPN, or Sports talk 9000 or whatever it is you listen to and use some common sense. Or maybe you should just shut the f%@k up.
July 31st, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Chicagorilla says:
damn why are my post so long all the time. From now on i’m going to just write Shut the f%k up. and keep it moving
July 31st, 2009 at 8:45 pm
Big Sneezy says:
You should watch this documentary “Bigger, Stronger, Faster”. It criticizes a lot of the whining about steroids that’s going on these days with a lot of the same points that you make. As many people have stated, I’m just not sure how ‘roids would help in basketball, but I wouldn’t be surprised if some players have experimented.
July 31st, 2009 at 11:14 pm
doc says:
Cheating is when u get caught.How I know Lou Gerig wasnt on some shit?Just win baby.
July 31st, 2009 at 11:47 pm
doc says:
Them writers who are ILLEGALLY leaking them baseball players name 1 by 1 every month are “performance enhancing” themselves arent they?Who would actually give a fuck what they had to say without those names.Which is why they wont drop all the names until they leak all the known players they could get major recognition for are done.Its the pot calling the kettle black.If you a professional you are supposed to ENHANCE your performance.Thats what you get paid to do.If in your job the only thing to shoot for is employee of the month and a close parking spot for the month you just wont understand.
August 3rd, 2009 at 9:46 am
Chicagorilla says:
@#43
I wonder how many posters will actually go check out this Documentry (Bigger, Stronger, Faster) you posted. Prolly not, since it puts to rest all of their great “points” about steroids/cheating.