The Other G.O.A.T.
Kareem Abuld-Jabbar
For every idiot/moron/stupid/crazy/you-should-be-fired/you-should-die (seriously) insult I took after writing that Michael Jordan is overrated, the only time I ever felt dumb was later that same night I wrote the column, when NBA TV aired a Lakers/Clippers game from 1979.
While the re-run was meant to showcase Magic Johnson in his first NBA game, the star of the show was the one guy who I somehow failed to mention when listing players who could challenge Jordan for the Greatest of All-Time crown: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.
No excuses for me in forgetting Kareem, but I think it was at least emblematic of the way he’s been treated for a long time. Nobody, not even Jordan, can touch Kareem’s resume: Six NBA championships, three NCAA championships, two NBA Finals MVPs, six-time League MVP, 19-time All-Star, Rookie of the Year, inarguably the greatest college player ever, 11-time NBA All-Defensive, the League’s all-time leading scorer, and third in rebounds and blocks. And yet Kareem consistently gets left out when we talk about defining the G.O.A.T. Up against the game’s greatest giants, Kareem usually sits behind Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell in the eyes of the public, and sometimes even gets ranked behind Hakeem Olajuwon and Shaq. Against the entire field, Kareem often falls behind Jordan, Magic, Bird, Oscar and sometimes Jerry West in G.O.A.T. arguments.
How does that happen? For starters, 7-footers get an automatic bias against them when ranked against smaller players, with the idea that the Kobes of the world are more talented than the Shaquilles; that the Shaq-types are just bigger than most everybody, and because they don’t have to jump as high or shoot from as far away as perimeter players, the game is easier for them. But if that line of thinking should be thrown out the window for anybody, it should be Kareem. Though he stands 7-2, Kareem’s game wasn’t about using his size to punish folks. He was graceful and skilled. He was a basketball player. Kareem’s signature Sky Hook actually had him going away from the basket, rather than running people over to get to the basket.
That said, the Sky Hook is another culprit in Kareem being constantly underrated. Because it was damn near unblockable, because he seemed to make it every time, because he did it so smoothly and seemingly effortlessly, there are two enduring perceptions: (1) Kareem’s only move was the Sky Hook, and (2) It was almost like cheating.
Silly rabbits. Whether it’s Jordan’s fadeaway, Hakeem’s Dream Shake or Tim Duncan’s banker, great players are supposed to develop pet moves. The point is to find a shot that is hard to defend, and just because you’re 7-2 doesn’t mean you shouldn’t use that asset to your advantage, just like Mike used his vertical leap and strength, and Hakeem used his quickness and supreme footwork.
The Sky Hook
Moreover, Kareem’s shot was in fact the toughest signature shot of all-time to master. The man got major buckets with it for the better part of three decades, and yet nobody has replicated it since. Go to the playground tonight and try hitting the Sky Hook consistently. Better yet, try it when somebody is guarding you. It ain’t easy AT ALL, you’ll find out. You know every big-man coach (including Kareem in his current role with the Lakers) has tried to teach their star pupils the finer points of the Sky Hook, and still nobody has incorporated it into their game as successfully as Kareem did it. So instead of being knocked down a peg for mastering the Sky Hook, Kareem should be lifted up to another level.
(Personally, Kareem was my favorite basketball player before I even seriously watched basketball. I was maybe eight years old when I read Giant Steps, Kareem’s autobiography that he wrote while playing for the Lakers. Today, I still have the original copy that I stole from my school library. Beyond the basketball part, I became a fan of Kareem the man, and the book had a lasting personal and spiritual impact on me. One of the highlights of my sportswriting career was getting to meet, interview and write a featrure on Kareem for Dime’s special 2007 Vegas All-Star issue. Even though Kareem was his notoriously cranky self when we talked, at least I expected it going in.)
It’s funny how fans and media take things like player rankings and comparisons as self-made facts in their own mind. If I argue that I think Jason Kidd is better than Steve Nash, I’ll get people telling me I’m flat-out wrong for no other reason than they decided Nash is better. I’ve always found it strange when we’re talking about opinions, perception and subjectivity, but with Kareem I can’t take a strong enough stance:
No matter what you determine makes a great basketball player — accomplishments, skills, stats, aesthetics — Kareem has to be a Top-4 player of all-time. And that’s even me being nice to the others. I wrote before and still believe that Jordan is #1, and I’m not going back on that. But I’m gonna stick Kareem at #2, and if you wanna call it #1A, that works, too.
* Follow Austin Burton on Twitter: @AustinatDIMEmag
* Follow DIME on Twitter: @DIMEMag
August 31st, 2009 at 3:16 pm
D A says:
First… I love lamp
August 31st, 2009 at 3:22 pm
dukesman2000 says:
Dime Magazine is truly an equal opportunity employer; they do hire retards.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:23 pm
S-SiN says:
Good one Austin.
Speaking of opinions, here’s mine: Hakeem was better.
Based entirely on the fact that I concisely followed NBA since the late 80s - early 90s and missed Cap in his prime.
Still, records, MVPs and number of rings set aside (even though Olajuwon passed Jabbar on the all time blocks list) I think The Dream was a better player.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Sanssasin says:
Can we just throw out the GOAT title? It’s so hard to compare this era with that era. And this position with that position. I don’t think you can have ONE guy as the GOAT. I think to do so if foolish. The game is still being played and still evolving. Is it Kareem’s, Wilt’s, Russell’s, or anyone elses fault that they played before the “internet” and before global marketing was as big as it is today? We live in a society where we have to label everything. Why can’t we just have some damn good players? Why does ONE person have to be labeled the GOAT?
I like this argument for Kareem. I saw the end of Kareem’s career and the dude had game and was lethal at the end of his career, can only imagine what it was like in his prime.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:38 pm
doc says:
Hes up there.Better than Russell and Wilt.In my book hes 3rd all time behind Mike and Magic.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:43 pm
That's whats Up says:
I loved him in Airplane.
He played pretty well too - looked like he could barely walk towards the end of his career but he could still get it done, night-in and night-out.
Caught him live in the Hemisfair Arena during his farewell season.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:43 pm
foolio_iglesias says:
But who had the better collector card huhhuhhuh?
August 31st, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Panthro says:
Seriously,Shaq would of manhandled Lewis Alcindor or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.That skyhook was not only ugly,but overated & chessey..
August 31st, 2009 at 3:53 pm
bullet380 says:
Nicely written article.
The thing about this whole G.O.A.T. thing is, people are going to say Mike is the greatest simply because they are too young to have seen any other player in their prime/era. Sheer numbers would have to suggest that Kareem would be the G.O.A.T. For everyone that keeps throwing Mike’s 6 rings into the equation, Kareem had six as well. Hell, Bill Russell has 11. If rings = the G.O.A.T, then Russell wins that argument.
No matter who you write about, I’m willing to wager that 90% (or better) of the people that reply to this article are going to say Mike is the greatest. He’s the litmus for most of the readers because they grew up watching him. Again, I’m probably a little older than most, so I have my opinions as well.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:58 pm
J.Hicks says:
@Panthro — If “cheesy” gets me six rings, six MVPs and 38,000 points, just call me MF’n Velveeta.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:09 pm
x0t says:
thanks austin. definitely top 3. anyone who puts magic ahead of kareem is a goddam idiot
August 31st, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Michorizo says:
I hear this Kareem guy was pretty damn good too… and all while hitting the reefer too.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:17 pm
George W Kush Sr says:
God you’re stupid.
Kareem is undeniably of the best ever but once again you bring up stupid ass points. The Sky Hook demands a few steps, steps you cannot take in today’s NBA because the ball would get stripped out of your hands by help defenders. Don’t you watch ball?
Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, Jabbar and Shaq. Those are my top 5 centers. In your own “article” you mention that sometimes Jabbar is listed 5th best center, and that’s who you bring out as potentially better than MJ? The 5th best center is better than Jordan now?
You’re dumb as hell. I love debating who’s the best but only with people who bring up good points. Jabbar’s sky hook could never fuck with Olajuwon’s Dream Shake, GTFOH.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Alee-Mo says:
Just like your namesake, George W., you obviously can’t read. The article says Kareem is UNDERRATED, hence why he’s sometimes put behind Wilt, Russell, Shaq, etc. The article says Kareem should be ranked AHEAD of those guys and right behind/next to Jordan. How stupid are you?
August 31st, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Alee-Mo says:
And if the Sky Hook was so easy to defend, how come nobody did it well? They didn’t have help defenders when Kareem played, is that what you’re saying? I’m starting to wonder if you even watch basketball.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:28 pm
ProphetGK says:
Whoa AB, people are really giving you a hard time these days eh? Well I do agree with you, MJ is clearly #1 of all time but #2 of all time? Now that’s debatable…
August 31st, 2009 at 4:33 pm
SayItAintSo says:
Hahahaha @13
I think you bring up points that are exponentially more stupid than anything AB said:
“The Sky Hook demands a few steps, steps you cannot take in today’s NBA because the ball would get stripped out of your hands by help defenders. Don’t you watch ball?”
You are SO right because the ball was never stripped until the 90’s…right?
Because none of the moves in today’s NBA require steps where the ball can be stripped…right?
Because AB’s entire argument is superfluous and out of date due to those few steps now that the “strip ball” and “help defense” techniques are light years ahead of where they were last decade.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:41 pm
George W Kush Sr says:
Alee-Mo, I’m calling Burton an idiot, don’t know why you’re catching feelings dumbass, maybe because you’re as dumb as Burton.
When the FUCK did I say the Sky Hook was defendable? I said Jabbar was one of the best, then I said his move would not work in TODAY’S NBA, stupid. The help defense of TODAY’S NBA is light years ahead of the one played decades ago. From the way the ball is dribbled to the way they hung in the air when they shot the ball, TODAY’S NBA is MAD DIFFERENT. Have you ever watched Jabbar play? That’s why I compare the Hook to the Dream Shake, stupid.
If you can’t admit that the game is played differently now than it was 30 fucking years ago just shut up and sit down. I’m not going to debate this with a dumb fuck like yourself because I’ll be going in circles trying to explain things to you. So from here on out shut da fuck up old man.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Alee-Mo says:
“When the FUCK did I say the Sky Hook was defendable?”
How about here:
“The Sky Hook demands a few steps, steps you cannot take in today’s NBA because the ball would get stripped out of your hands by help defenders.”
If you can’t ID your own correlation between “defendable” and getting stripped, I don’t know what to tell you. But it sounds like you’ve had a bad day at work, so I’ll leave you alone to sound like the Madd Rapper.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:50 pm
George W Kush Sr says:
@ SayItAintSo
I said the ball was never stripped before the 90’s? I said that? Tell me what “moves” do today’s centers use that require as many steps as the hook?
When they interview old timers (read Hall OF Famers) they always make note of how the game is played so much faster than it was before. Just look at the tapes, what are you even talking about?
I’ll make my statement: The hook would only be effective in isolation situations (1-4 basically from the side of the key), that’s it. Used in any other scenario, TODAY, it would be useless.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:50 pm
lotsofhate says:
I’m amazed when reading so many posts with hate. I always wonder if people would word their responses differently if they were not hiding behind a computer screen.
Nice article Austin Burton, thanks for sharing your opinion.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:52 pm
lemay33 says:
u are all fkn idiots.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:54 pm
NC says:
“It’s funny how fans and media take things like player rankings and comparisons as self-made facts in their own mind … I’ve always found it strange when we’re talking about opinions, perception and subjectivity, but with Kareem I can’t take a strong enough stance:
No matter what you determine makes a great basketball player — accomplishments, skills, stats, aesthetics — Kareem has to be a Top-4 player of all-time. And that’s even me being nice to the others.”
This is hypocritical. Self made facts … Kareem HAS to be … come on man.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Eric Nichols says:
First off, articulate, educated, and should be held in the highest regard in athletic and literate circles. Man has wrote six books. Half were not about basketball. Put a foot on Bruce Lee’s chest(Game of Death) I have him rated number of all time. Would have had seven titles if not for the 72″ Lakers team. Was in TEN finals.
Just a graceful player. Better yet, a much accomplished human being.
Eric Los Angeles.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:57 pm
matthew says:
jabbar- 6rings +3 ncaa chips +4 h.s. rings =13 championships .
jordan-6 rings ,1 ncaaa, 1 h.s. chip i think im not even sure he even one in hs
and u say jordan is better.
do u know that two out of three of kareems college seasons were undefeated seasons in IN HIS WHOLE COLLEGE CAREER HE ONLY LOST 1. JORDAN WASNT EVEN THE CAPTAIN IN NORTH CAROLINA JAMES WORTHY WAS.JORDAN ONLY HAS ONE RECORD N THATS POINTS PER GAME BUT THAT DOESNT SAY NOTHING CAUSE IF I PLAY ONE GAME N SCORE FIFTY N NEVER PLAY AGAIN THEN ILL HAVE THE RECORD AS JABBAR ACTUALLY HOLDS THE MOST POINTS SCORED.
IF U CAN BE REAL AND LOGICAL THEN U HAVE TO ADMIT THAT EVERY THING JORDANS DONE KAREEM HAS DONE TWICE PLEASE PEOPLE PLEASE DONT FRONT ON MY BOY KAREEEM
August 31st, 2009 at 4:57 pm
NC says:
Kareem was dope though.
August 31st, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Austin Burton says:
@NC — That was the point. I usually don’t do the “Player X is better than Player Y as fact” thing, but I had to do it for Kareem.
August 31st, 2009 at 5:07 pm
George W Kush Sr says:
I’m not saying the Sky Hook is defendable, I’m saying it’s useless, that’s a big difference. In Kareem’s day it was unstoppable, today it ain’t worth as much because IT WONT WORK.
Maybe I’m the idiot, that’s why college coaches, high school coaches and International ball coaches are all teaching players to use the Hook, right? Please
August 31st, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Kevin says:
@Kush — I think AB was saying that coaches TRY to teach the Hook, but few players can master it because it’s a difficult shot. I’m not even trying to clown, but I think you need to slow down and read the piece again.
August 31st, 2009 at 5:10 pm
SayItAintSo says:
I have a strong suspicion that recent president George W. Bush Jr. is actually commenter George W Kush Sr…both have a track record of saying things with little to no intellectual worth.
@AB great article. I think that Kareem is easily a top 5 player all time, arguably the best player of all time and without question the most underrated player of all time. The man doesn’t get mentioned NEARLY as much as he deserves to be…all in all, I agree all of your main points.
August 31st, 2009 at 5:16 pm
WinDelRoj says:
Ive seen all sorts of centers at all levels get a hook shot off whenever they want it. Kevin Love, Greg Ostertag, Shaq, Dwight Howard you get the idea. They dont get stripped or blocked most of the time. You tell me Kareem couldnt do it now? He was highly skilled and athletically gifted (see the Bruce Lee fight posted not that long ago). Big MJ fan here but if someone wanted to argue GOAT with Kareem.. thats a good debate.
August 31st, 2009 at 5:19 pm
king says:
Was talking to some one about him and GOAT status last night
the clear choices for GOAT so far are MJ, Kareem and Magic
then we have in no order
Hakeem (dont call me crazy he’s one of the best, both offensive AND defensive, players EVER) at his position and overall
Bird
Russel
Wilt
Big O
August 31st, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Eric Nichols says:
Oh I forgot, the man also won three NCAA titles. Combine that with six rings.
So here we go:
3 NCAA rings.
6 NBA rings.
6 time MVP.
6 time arthur.
I have mad respect for all the players mentioned here, but the “Cap” never gets mentioned enough.
August 31st, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Cameron says:
@x0t, why would that constitute being an idiot? Magic’s game didn’t necessitate that he puts up stats and the like but Magic (or Bill Russell) could easily win the G.O.A.T. title simply based on one criterion: who’s the best at making their teammates better?
August 31st, 2009 at 5:27 pm
doc says:
Kareem in his prime put out there now would average 25-30 easy,with damn near half the points off hook shots.His last year was 89.He gave all the greats work from Wilt to Hakeem.Check the archives.Until he left he was the don dada.
August 31st, 2009 at 5:29 pm
doc says:
How can the man who scored the most points in league history game be questioned.And he left after losing to Zeke and them in the chip putting in work.Wasnt done by any means physically.
August 31st, 2009 at 5:29 pm
doc says:
@cameron-I didnt even wanna give dude a response.
August 31st, 2009 at 5:37 pm
Eric Nichols says:
Matthew, that was solid work. Great facts.
People have a hard time with facts.
#33. Legend.
August 31st, 2009 at 5:45 pm
dwight coward says:
George W. Kush: “Maybe I’m the idiot”
Indeed.
Bottom line its ludicrous to place Hakeem over Kareem. The accomplishments speak for themselves. Kareem went up against the best from multiple eras including Wilt.
People arguing that Kareem isn’t at LEAST top 5 are just exposing their lack of hoops knowledge.
August 31st, 2009 at 5:58 pm
sh!tfaced says:
Fuck yeah. Although Hakeem was a better center overall, Kareem was the better winner. The Skyhook is the most underrated shot of all time if ya ask me.
Really don’t know why big men like Bynum, D-How and other dumbass centers don’t use the skyhook. It’s the easiest and most unstoppable shot any big man can learn.
And like Kareem has proved, it also has lengthened a big man’s career…
Today’s big men are either too stupid and too full of pride to learn the beauty of the skyhook. All big men aren’t as skilled as Tim Duncan or KG…
August 31st, 2009 at 6:11 pm
NC says:
@Austin … all good!
August 31st, 2009 at 6:22 pm
LA`Clipperz says:
There will never be a G.O.A.T for several reasons. One being position, the players surrounding that individual, and the hype he gets.
In MY opinion I think these are the greatest of all time
1.) Wilt Chamberlain
2.) Magic Johnson
3.) Michael Jordan
4.) Bill Russell
5.) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6.) Kobe Bryant
7.) Oscar Robertson
8.) Larry Bird
9.) Jerry west
10.) John Stockton/ Karl Malone
If you agree/disagree, I appreciate your opinion
PLZ no hate posts, or ill shit all over your comments
August 31st, 2009 at 6:30 pm
George W Kush Sr says:
@ that Coward fellow
I’ve never said that Jabbar wasn’t amongst the best that ever did it so don’t address me and then talk bullshit. Personnally I put Hakeem over him but that’s me. But since you were smart enough to copy/paste part of my statement why don’t you answer me why I don’t see the Hook being used?
@ SayItAintSo
You caught me, I’m really George Bush, I thought that by changing it to Kush I’d fool you but you’re too smart for that. Since you’re so smart, please tell me how Kareem’s Sky Hook, which started around his waist, wouldn’t get stripped in a Zone Defense? I don’t have to remind you there weren’t any Zones back then, so tell me how a forward or guard wouldn’t at least plant his feet in front of a big man running in from 16 feet?
And besides the question, who are you to say that I say shit with no intellectual worth when you was born ass first? Anything and everything you’ve ever posted has had less intellectual output than a retarded Bill Walton. I usually just skip over your posts because they’re the equivalence of a Beavis and Butthead moment. You can’t function without displaying your homotions and you wanna talk shit about me? Step your shit up dumbass
August 31st, 2009 at 6:36 pm
sh!tfaced says:
You use a name like “LA`Clipperz” and expect no hate posts…?
Well… good luck, man. Kinda agree with the greatest players list though the rankings maybe off a spot or two, but who gives a shit, as long as LeBron isn’t there it’s all good to me. LOL.
August 31st, 2009 at 7:00 pm
SayItAintSo says:
I’m pretty bored so I’ll take the bait and “step up”.
You have George W Kush SENIOR as your pseudonym, but you speak as eloquently as George W Bush JUNIOR. Just helping you distinguish between father and son.
You’re totally right, I could have been born ass first. I’ll have to ask my mother.
You’re at liberty to form your own opinions about my posts. I will point out that you obviously don’t skip over them if they’re soliciting a response from you, and a very heated response at that, playa.
Now, about Zone defenses…
You’re right, they’re more sophisticated but I would argue that Kareem was a good enough player to:
1) See an approaching guard looking for the steal
2) Make adjustments and pass out to the open perimeter player after his second step
3) Make adjustments to secure the ball better after having it stolen so that it doesnt happen again.
The guy scored thousands upon thousands of points. You don’t think he would have made adjustments once guards started swiping?
So yeah, your post has no intellectual worth because Kareem DIDN’T play when zone defenses were in effect and he DID score mad buckets as a result.
If in twenty years, the NBA bans jumpshots for some reason, does that nullify all of today’s players (Ray Allen, KB24 Michael Redd and others who rely on the jumpshot) accomplishments just because they might not work in the future?
August 31st, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Ian says:
clipperz
1.) Wilt Chamberlain
2.) Magic Johnson
3.) kareem
4.) jordan
5.) td
6.) shaq
7.) bird
8.) big o
9.) russell
10.) not sure who id put here.
kobe cant be over td and shaq and no way malone and stockton crack the list top 25 yeah top ten nah.
of course only an opinion. i dont like russell at all but 11 rings damn.
August 31st, 2009 at 7:31 pm
Yao Fan says:
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. even the idiotic ones. Hakeem was a good player but not better than the Cap. Its natural but sad that as time goes by NBA fans of the new era just don’t know how dominate players of pervious era was. In 20 years, people will be be calling you an idiot for saying how great MJ/Magic/Bird were.
one thing is for sure. Individual awards aside, CHAMPIONSHIP RINGS tells the truth about how great a player is in the history of the game.
August 31st, 2009 at 7:54 pm
sh!tfaced says:
Yao Fan?! Idiotic opinions?! ‘dominate’ players?!
“In 20 years, people will be be calling you an idiot for saying how great MJ/Magic/Bird were.” FTW????!!!!
RINGS tell the truth about a great player?! From a YAO FAN?!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA… DAMN….
August 31st, 2009 at 8:17 pm
George W Kush Sr says:
Ah
You took the “bait” quite well. The bait wasn’t for you to reply, but to showcase how truly dumb you are.
You’ve stated that today’s big men are too stupid to be able to:
“1) See an approaching guard looking for the steal
2) Make adjustments and pass out to the open perimeter player after his second step
3) Make adjustments to secure the ball better after having it stolen so that it doesnt happen again.”
I’m sorry stupid, but Shaq has been doing all those things while putting up spinning hook shots, just not Sky Hooks. So has Duncan, so have alot of other big men. Now the Sky Hook, not just a hook shot, consists of Kareem holding the ball with one hand around his waist and then going up while taking his steps. Shaq uses a spinning hook since he’s already in the lane. You dont’ even know what you’re arguing with me. Fall back stupid.
Now the NBA hasn’t banned the Sky Hook, and don’t worry I doubt they’ll ever ban the JUMP SHOT, I’m just pointing out the Sky Hook as being utterly useless in TODAY’S NBA. They say there is no such thing as a stupid question but that never stopped you from trying, you ask if the NBA bans the jumpshot would Ray Allen accomplishments be any less?
Answer : Nope. And if you read my posts you are severly going off subject with your pathetic question. Where as I’ve never said that Kareem’s accomplishments should be nullified, rather I’ve actually repeated over and over again that I consider him one of the best ever because I knew a homotionnal fruitcake like yourself isn’t debating basketball with me. All I’ve said is that the Sky Hook wouldn’t work TODAY. You think I said Kareem aint shit, that’s why you’re acting like a little bitch, which you do on a daily basis.
Maybe you don’t like the way I write, and I’m glad because it makes you act oh so bitchmade.
Laters bitch, next time learn how to step up first.
August 31st, 2009 at 8:30 pm
Big Island says:
Kush - you really think that if Dwight Howard had the skyhook it would be useless? you are out of your damn mind. Dude that long, fading away, with the off arm keeping the defender away, come on. Who is gonna get up and block that? Just dumb. You did make your point, it’s just wrong.
Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Hakeem, Shaq. Shaq could’ve been #1 ever of any position with NO arguments if he would’ve tried harder. Orlando shouldn’t have lost to Houston when he was there, but let that slide. No way the Lakers ever should have lost with him and if he stayed they would have a ton of rings.
August 31st, 2009 at 8:42 pm
SayItAintSo says:
Hahaha
Kush, you’re just too smart for me…I can’t comment with you. You’re far too superior.
August 31st, 2009 at 8:45 pm
Flying_Aussie_Dutchman says:
Good article Austin… I STILL think that some of these people who past here should write an article and see how it goes.
To me, the G.0.A.T should be determind by which era was considered the most intense, hardest, most challenging(and factor the rules for that era also) etc etc
August 31st, 2009 at 8:49 pm
George W Kush Sr says:
Big Island,
That’s where some people are confusing my point. Dwight Howard with a simple hook shot would be great. The Sky Hook is a move where Kareem took steps into the lane, or in any direction, and then did a hook shot.
The hook shot and its variations are great and under-utilized, I admit, but the Sky Hook is a hook shot with those steps, with the ball going up from the waist, and that’s where I argue that the game has evolved.
The best example I could use is jumpshots. Lets take NBATV as an example, when you watch the classic games from early 80’s you can see the player actually hang in the air a lil bit before releasing his shot. That is no longer practiced because your shot would get blocked. Fadeaways work because you are fading to secure space, but a regular pull up jump shot from the 80’s would get sent back automatically. The jumpers you see today the player releases as soon as he’s reached up there.
The Sky Hook, not the hook shot, is useless. Unless of course is a 1-4 from the side.
August 31st, 2009 at 8:54 pm
Jim says:
The problem with the sky-hook is that it is a fall away shot with no chance for an offensive rebound. Maybe, it’s old school but your suppose to be moving towards the basket when you shoot. Unless, as is Kareem’s case you have teamates who can compensate for your lack of rebounding skills. Same can be said for Shaq.
August 31st, 2009 at 9:04 pm
Chi-Tizzle says:
Kareem is the best NBA player of all time. I would take those numbers over Mike’s any time. Mike has very comparable numbers thou (check Matthew’s comment). The NBA numbers are close and would make a good debate. Kareem got that killer thou, ALL TIME POINTS SCORED. That record is untouchable. His college years were so crucial it would take all of NBATV’s air time for weeks.
Mike is of recent times. Most of us saw all his games. We saw all the dunks and clutch shots. Yall sleep on the logo but thats another discussion. But this is why many people massage his nuts in this debate. He was the most popular figure in the world of recent till Tiger came along.
Don’t trip, I love Mike, I saw all his games, got a closest full of old and new Mike’s now. But don’t hate on Kareem just cause he didn’t have the Nike contract and all. Kareem was a little suspect with his money to. Mike had a mouth piece named David Falk.
August 31st, 2009 at 9:07 pm
K Dizzle says:
@ Austin - I hit the skyhook once, well it was kinda a half hook, but shit is impossible to master. Of course, when Kareem picked it up, it was cuz they tried to change the rules and prevented dunkin, so he switched up. If they outlawed dunkin today, I’d love to see what Shaq and Dwight etc would come up with. Kareem been tryin to teach Bynum the hook, but it’s a slow process, he’ll get it in a few years tho.
@ Ian - you know kobe number 10 on that list - I know it hurts, but you know it’s true
@ dude rippin on the skyhook and callin it “useless”, I got no response to that
@ Austin one more ‘gain - I think the reason Cap don’t get the love Mike gets is A) He did most of his work in the 70s and 80s before the media and internet blew up like they did for Mike. I don’t remember any Kareem commercials, neither do any of the oldheads from my block, but I seen Mike everywhere from Hanes, gatorade, AJs, Nike to Ballpark franks.
B) Kareem won all his chips with Oscar(top 5 all time) and Magic (top 3 all time) whereas Mike “only had” Scottie. It’s a dirty perception, but that’s how it is.
Good article this time.
August 31st, 2009 at 9:10 pm
K Dizzle says:
@ Jim
-Mike’s fadeaway
-Kobe’s fadeaway
-Hakeem’s dream shake
all 3 goin away from the hoop
all 3 unstoppable
August 31st, 2009 at 9:17 pm
Ian says:
k dizzle
i dont mind seeing kobe at ten
actually i was between three people and kobe was one. hehehe
and you are one of the few sane kobe fans that actually make sense i see some CRAZY laker fans here ranking kobe ahead of duncan and shaq and that is not possible at least not now kobe has a chance of course to leapfrog them but hes not there yet. so with that said yeah kobe is ten but like i always say an alltime list is based on accomplishment also because there are like 10-15 players id take to start a team with than lets say russell.
August 31st, 2009 at 10:13 pm
jzsmoove says:
Austin Burton should go work for the Knicks front office. Or Golden State. Or the Wolves. Or the Grizz and punk off Chris Wallace. Fellow has a beautiful mind.
August 31st, 2009 at 11:00 pm
POPPI GEE says:
AB way to bring the forgotten (G.O.A.T. (It should just be “Greats Of All Time”)) to the forefront. So much about him where he most def. should be mentioned in debates and convos about greats and greatest players.
One of, if not the, elite center to never be duplicated as far as durability, consistency, style and grace. He deserves to be at the front of discussions and not to be forgotten.
Unfortunately for Kareem, regardless of all his accolades and accomplishments he lacks the flair and impact Jordan created during his time.
Cause lets be honest, as lethal as the sky hook was, it was boring to watch and boring to try after a minute. Kareem, while amazing, simply lacks the tongue wagging and shoulder shrugging moments of his career that will hinder his case in debate.
That is probably where most things can begin and end with Jordan. While you may find a plethora of players that are better than or at least in the ranks of Jordan at individual things, when it comes to the complete package of all things considered and debated, Jordan has no equal as a whole.
Still for playing the game constantly at a high level and doing all he has done, Kareem’s name should always be in the fray. Thanks AB for droppin this read.
August 31st, 2009 at 11:58 pm
johnsacrimoni says:
In my opinion…
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Wilt Chamberain
5. Oscar Robertson
6. Larry Bird
7. Bill Russell
8. Shaquille O’Neal
9. Tim Duncan
10. Kobe Bryant
Next 5 (in no particular order): Hakeem Olajuwan, Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Moses Malone, Julius Erving
September 1st, 2009 at 12:08 am
spirow says:
Kareem abdul jabbar was wayyy better then hakeem and better then Shaq. . . I think bill russel, kareem are the top two centres and in the mix you put tim duncan. . .
September 1st, 2009 at 2:30 am
Ian says:
john
the next ten imo
moses , west , hakeem , admiral , malone , erving , baylor , stock , having trouble on deciding the last 2.
September 1st, 2009 at 4:32 am
K Dizzle says:
Barkley, Dave Robinson, Ewing, McHale, Worthy or Isaiah….take two
September 1st, 2009 at 6:49 am
Mrs Dougherty says:
Dear Austin,
We have been looking for GIANT STEPS for ages and now finally we know where it is!
I agree with your take on Kareem, but I think you should blame yourself for this. If you hadn’t stolen books from your own High School’s library, todays generation would know more about the Captain!
Sincerly,
Mrs Daugherty
(from your High Schools library)
P.S.: You owe your school the sum of 1023 US$!
September 1st, 2009 at 10:23 am
karizmatic says:
I disagree that the sky hook would be useless in today’s game. It is one of the most unblockable shots ever invented and I believe if it were mastered by any player in today’s game it would be the same. Kareem is often left off the lists primarily because he was never really that at ease with the media and therefore no one wrote flattering reports about him. One stat left off is he also has scored the most points in NBA history dude is definitely one of the greats of the game. Perhaps the best center ever to play the game. I put him 3rd behind Russell and Wilt, but that is mostly out of respect for Russell’s championships and Wilt’s 100 points. I sometimes put Hakeem ahead of him because Hakeem is my favorite center ever. Of course Shaq is out here, but at laid out in the article there is a compelling argument that Kareem is the best center ever. Coincidentally, does that make Magic less of a great?
Greatest ever
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Bird
4. Russell
5. Wilt
6. Kareem
7. Shaq
8. Big O
9. Duncan
10.Hakeem
September 1st, 2009 at 1:16 pm
dwight coward says:
“why don’t you answer me why I don’t see the Hook being used?”
Uh…because big men today are either (a) KG style face the basket guys or (b) completely unskilled lugs?
I mean you’re telling me a skyhook wouldn’t work if Bynum, Oden, D Howard etc. had it? Come on. You’ve never stepped on a court with somebody who can make a hook. Matter of a fact, _I_ am good at hooks. Trust me nobody can block it who is my height (I’m a six-footer) and I’ve used it effectively over guys several inches taller.
They don’t use it because they just don’t try to learn it early enough. Its probably hard to pick up and get REALLY good at it once you’re 21. You need to start at 14 or so.
September 1st, 2009 at 1:29 pm
dwight coward says:
BTW its a crying shame KG never developed a sky hook. With his length he could score 30 a game easy if he mastered it.
September 1st, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Tom says:
Greatest player of all time? Easy. SCOTT HOWARD, aka Teen Wolf. Even at 5′4″, as soon as that guy “wolfed-out” it was all over. Don’t believe me? Check the clips on our BLOG at ballher.com
September 1st, 2009 at 1:36 pm
LovETheGAme says:
@Mrs Daugherty - that was funny…we needed some comic relief…
@Austin…did you really steal the book?
September 1st, 2009 at 2:05 pm
BiG ShoT BoB says:
Yeah dude talking about the sky hook is way off. Take a look at this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlB8X101kME
All the cats in this video tell you how unguardable the sky hook was. They even show clips of him being doubled and he still making cats look stupid. What you have to realize is just because you need a few moves to make the sky hook happen the same goes for any other move. KG fade away takes just as many steps but it’s not like they are going 1 on 5. There’s other players on the court that can shoot so that spaces the floor. Not to mention the guy was 7′2 and at the height of the release your looking at 8 feet and up…no way anyone’s blocking or stripping that shot once he gets it up that high.
As far ass the goat list goes I think a lot of these young cats are sleeping on Bill Russell.
My list goes:
1) Mike
Big O
2) Bill Russell
3) Kareem
4) Wilt
5) Magic
6) Duncan
7) Shaq
9) Hakeem
10)Kobe
But I can see Kobe jumping into the top 5 when it’s all said and done.
September 1st, 2009 at 2:28 pm
doc says:
Mrs.Daugherty want that bread AB.Kush you way off base with this one and getting picked off.Kareem would get the rock with his back to the basket on the block and just shoot the hook as a post move and that shit was water.And I mean that good blue island water you can see your toes through.Here’s my top 10 hate it or love it.Mike,Magic,Cap,Shaq,Timmy,Kobe,Bird,Keem,Russell,Wilt, and Big O can play 1 on 1 for the last 3 spots right now since they held it down when they was there.Its some young stunnas in training that aint here now but will be BOOK IT!
September 1st, 2009 at 2:42 pm
johnsacrimoni says:
Ian,
Next two I’d go with Isiah and Barkley, although I know Barkley has his many critics.
September 1st, 2009 at 3:09 pm
doc says:
Yeah if you wanna get technical Barkley will show Bill Russell some shit.
September 1st, 2009 at 3:10 pm
doc says:
But he cant be up there because he not better than the Mailman.
September 1st, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Austin Burton says:
@#70 - I stole multiple books from libraries in elementary school. Nerdiest thug move ever.
September 1st, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Fraz says:
Kareem is imho the greatest Center ever period. Wilt was incredible force. Russell was a champion. And Hakeem was a pleasure to watch. But if you could design your prototype center, it would have to be Kareem. The guy did it all, back to the basket, face up, rebounds, defense, and he had a mean streak on the court too. Stories about this guy outside the nba, I mean in high school, college and the playgrounds are legendary. Do your research, the media never showed Kareem love because he didnt play their game but don’t doubt for a sec that Kareem wasnt the most dominant player of his era. The stats speak for themselves.
September 2nd, 2009 at 8:14 am
mARK says:
Does George Mikan get any love around here?
Talk about winners,
guys who changed the game,
inovators..
There would be no big man post play without the influance of Mikan.
I will not try to say who the greatest was never ending debate really.
But I do think Jabar would be just fine in todays NBA.
There simply is no one at 7′2″ with his athletasism, and finness in the game right now. Sure there are guys who can jump out of the gym, but I dont think there is any one right now at center that could hang with him for 48 minutes, with out collecting 6 fouls.
September 2nd, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Dlite says:
Wow AB can write or was there a Ghost writer?
September 2nd, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Ian says:
dizzle i already had dave in the top 20 i can go with isiah and tossup between charles and worthy. now ewing barely cracks the top 50
big shot
no bird in the top ten?
john well hes top 25 for sure but i dont know if he gets my 20th spot that three point jacking alone should cost charles 3 spots.
September 11th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
Jon says:
Me personally kareem is number 1 because rings dont mean a damn thing look at john salley he has more than barkley and malone and if everybody that says no one is doing the sky hook would open they eyes they would dwight howard is workin on that not a big orlando fan it van be don but who takes time out to practice that when u can out muscle or outstrecth everybody