Smack / Oct 30, 2009 / 5:37 am

One Duncan Don’t Stop No Show

Derrick Rose (photo. Sasha Nialla)

Derrick Rose (photo. Sasha Nialla)

When the Spurs smacked the sting out of the Hornets in their season opener the other night, everybody but Tim Duncan looked like world-beaters. Last night in Chicago, Duncan proved he’s still dominant when he needs to be, but his teammates didn’t show up and San Antone took an L … The Bulls just had too many weapons to counter the Spurs’ one-man show. Derrick Rose put up 13 points and seven dimes and Luol Deng had 17 and nine boards, as the whole starting five and sixth man Kirk Hinrich scored in double figures. Rose showed no effects of the ankle injury that grounded him for most of the preseason; he was hitting circus layups, blowing past guys off the dribble, and getting in the air to challenge shots. It sounds weird to say somebody with Rose’s athleticism was a “game manager,” but the kid had his Andre Miller mask on, smartly spreading the ball around and always seeming to make the right decision … Deng was just as impressive, especially considering how bad he looked for the majority of last season. Last night he was moving smoothly without the ball, flying all over the place for offensive rebounds, and generally displaying the game-changing ability that earned him that $70 million contract in the first place. When he’s on, Deng is like a more bouncy version of post-injury Grant Hill … How bad was Duncan’s supporting cast? For the first 10 and a half minutes of the third quarter, Duncan (28 pts, 16 rebs, 3 blks) scored all but two of the Spurs points. He was killing on that face-up banker, which he hit from the same spot all night. But Tony Parker (4-11 FG) and Manu Ginobili (3-11 FG) just didn’t do their part … And Richard Jefferson deserves his own paragraph. Before the first commercial break he’d bricked two threes badly, had a layup sent back in his face by Rose, missed another jumper, and found a seat on Coach Pop’s bench. It looked like maybe the Spurs were trying to get RJ on track and run the offense through him early, but when that didn’t work, scrapped the plan and resumed leaning on Duncan, Parker and Manu. Jefferson finished with nine points on 3-of-9 shooting (and later in the game got smashed on by Tyrus Thomas); between that and his 1-of-7 line against New Orleans, he’s had a worse two-game start than the Cavaliers … PLEASE tell us Joakim Noah didn’t hit a jumper and do the “You can’t see me” thing afterward. C’mon son! (Shout-out to Ed Lover.) You uncorked that ugly-ass J and it goes in once, now you’re acting like you’re Ben Gordon? Get the eff outta here with that … Charles Barkley made a good point that guys like Parker and Ginobili get worn out during the season and more susceptible to injury because they play for their national teams immediately following long NBA playoff runs. Good point, except for Parker doesn’t have a history of injury or fatigue problems, and Team France usually doesn’t go very far in their big tournaments anyway … Kevin McHale said in the TNT studio that the Spurs were “done” last season when Manu went down. “They could still beat bad teams,” he added, just not the contenders. And somehow nobody pointed out that McHale’s Timberwolves would’ve been one of those bad teams. Remember who took that 55-point drilling by Parker when Ginobili was out? … Now would be a good time to reiterate Smack’s preseason prediction that Carmelo Anthony will lead the NBA in scoring. After dropping 30 on the Jazz in the opener, ‘Melo hit the Blazers for 41 last night. He hit the go-ahead jumper with about four minutes left, part of a run where ‘Melo scored 10 straight Denver points, and his two free throws with two seconds left capped a 19-point quarter. Brandon Roy scored 30 points (16-18 FT) in the loss, and missed a potential game-tying three at the buzzer that looked exactly like the one he hit on the Rockets last year … But before that sequence, Greg Oden (6 pts, 9 rebs, 2 blks) went to the line with 4.6 seconds left and a chance for Portland to take the lead. He bricked both freebies. Oden hasn’t been a big part of the offense so far, but he’s looking like he could average double-digit rebounds and multiple blocks. If down the road G.O.’s niche in the NBA is about eight points, 10-11 boards and 2-3 blocks per night and the Blazers are perennial contenders, would you consider Oden a bust as the No. 1 overall pick? What if draft classmate Kevin Durant is dropping 25-30 points a night, Al Horford is good for a regular double-double, and Jeff Green is a borderline All-Star? … If you read some of the excerpts from Tim Donaghy‘s book yesterday, then watched the Blazers/Nuggets game where the teams combined for 90 free throws, did it affect your perception at all? … After a month and a half’s worth of counting down, Dime’s Austin Burton says Kobe Bryant is the best go-to guy in the League. OK, maybe not the biggest surprise, but check it out and see if you agree with Kobe’s spot or the list overall … Bob Knight has decided not to attend his induction into the Indiana University sports Hall of Fame next week. Knight told the administration he worried about his presence taking too much attention away from the other inductees. Honestly, that sounds like a weak excuse. By that logic, Michael Jordan shouldn’t have gone to this year’s Naismith H.O.F. ceremony, and Brett Favre shouldn’t show up the year he gets put into the football Hall. It’s highly likely Knight just doesn’t want to go because Indiana fired him once upon a time … Just one NBA team has yet to make their ’09-10 regular season debut, so if you’ve got the NBA League Pass free preview, don’t miss the Milwaukee Bucks tonight as they get going against the Sixers! OK, Bucks/Sixers is probably the worst game on the schedule, but we tried … We’re out like Donaghy’s royalties …

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  • ToAn

    jefferson and aldridge are killing my fantasy team…they both play like shit. and yeah ‘melo is killing it right from the start, great post player and his jumper is a thing of beauty.

  • Pat

    If down the road G.O.’s niche in the NBA is about eight points, 10-11 boards and 2-3 blocks per night and the Blazers are perennial contenders,

    If Oden has those averages, I’d rather have an experienced Prizbilla have the lion’s minutes.

    In other words, he’s a bust for a number 1 pick.

  • cesar

    jeff green a borderline allstar? hahahahhaha

  • ToAn

    8 pts/ 10 reb/ 2-3 blocks for “the next great center” and no. 1 pick is definitely bust-status. but he can be better than those stats, just give him more time. i can see a 18/11/2-3 blocks from him easily. well, IF he doesn’t get hurt again and again.

  • BRUCE

    No Dejuan Blair?

  • BRUCE

    Kudoes to Coach Knight for being bitter. I am still bitter from my first heart-break. That was 20 years ago. Hahahahaha.

  • itsakademiks

    cesar u must aint watch okc lately green has been bumpin

  • Big Sia

    ODEN IS NOT REALLY GOOD AT BASKETBALL

  • Big Sia

    and PROPS PROPS PROPS

    For the Ed Lover “Cmon Son!”

    youtube it crackers!

  • Name (required)

    GMs should just stop drafting centers so high up. its not 1987 anymore, “you cant teach size” should be changed to “you cant teach centers”. they all either never learn the game or can never stay healthy. ALL of the major draft cockups have been from picking a 7 footer, Kwame, Darko, Thabeet. Oden should have gone at no. 12 and the world would have been a better place.

  • M

    “youtube it crackers”

    Really sia? REALLY?

  • rick773

    Good win to start out the season for the Bulls….Going 82-0 seems a little bit closer now

  • http://www.tropicanacommunity.org Khalvin

    I could barely watch the Den/Por forth quarter, on every whistle I kept thinking is it a real foul?
    Who has money riding on it?
    What does Stern want to see happen here?

    The weird thing is with the NBA having such a long history if the refs are slanted they are so good at it now that I am sure that rarely do they ever have to make the calls in the last mins of the forth quater. They probaly manipulate it so well that the game is decided before the forth even begins.

    Yeah that book has me a little messed up… heh even playing 2k10 last night I started cussing Stern whenI got whistle for a foul in the forth.

    KHII

  • IGP

    @ Big Sia: That is a racist comment. What would you say if I said “youtube it niggers.” Which, of course, is racist and it offends many types of people. Just because I’m white doesn’t mean I don’t know anything about Ed Lover. So fuck you!

    @ Dime: as soon as I saw the 90 fouls, I was thinking that it was to cover a spread. And I will probably think that everytime I see a blown call or bad call. I hated hearing all that shit.

  • rangerjohn

    the spurs defense was way off last night, and i am not so sure parker didnt actually get hurt, or at least a little weary about going to the paint after the nasty fall he had wed. he only tried a couple of times and at least one was blocked. i think he was more nervous then hurt.

    blair had 6 pts and 4 rebounds in 12 minutes, thats not to bad really (shot 100%) but his defense was not good, he missed rotations left and right. thats the problem with having a great preseason (and opener) expectations get overhyped. in the end, even at 6-4 he is still performing better then 90%+ of all second round picks ever.

  • Soopa

    Seems like every season Melo has a couple of new post moves. He seems much quicker this season which makes defenders have to respect his drive which is why he is wetting jumper after jumper. So much skill to melos game, its easy to appreciate.

  • sh!tfaced

    Man, those Tim Donaghy excerpts has fucked up watching the games a bit. It now has more of a WWE feeling than the NBA…

  • Spliff 2 My Lou

    Blairs lack of height was exposed last night. The Bulls were dominating the boards especially offensively. I saw a few times that Blair was outtrebounded by Noah and Deng even when he had better position.

    All in all the Bulls looked good. If the can rebound, play defense, and play unselfish basketball all of which they did last night they’ll be in a good position to get a top 5 seed in the east.

  • calvin brodus

    amen to all the posters talking about how the donaghue(sp) book has them shook. I was second guessing every foul last night in the den/por game.

    im even afraid to gamble on the games now. I still will, but every time I lose im assuming the refs cost me money. that book has justified my unjustifiable paranoia.

    DAMN YOU DONAGHUE(sp)!

    mile mufuckin high!

  • Ian

    Damn sad game last night it was td vs the world. I want blair to start and td to slide to the c position.

  • got beef

    carmelo was clutch last night… is it me or does the melo man remind you of a younger more athletic paul pierce?

  • control

    My opinion of the refs is the same after reading those sections of that book. My reaction is more like, “oh, THAT is why they suck so bad…at least there is a reason” more than “oh my god, really!?!?”. They are just absolutely horrible. Basketball is a HARD sport to ref, but being completely honest, the current crop of refs adds their bias to the game COMPLETELY. Time for some new fucking blood.

    Look at the FIRST foul in Nugs/Blaze game. Greg Oden, just staying in front of Nene…barely even touched him and Nene loses control and it’s a foul on Oden. Gotta get that defensive stopper out of the game quick! I’m not saying Oden don’t foul a lot, make rookie moves and shit, but come on…

    One other thing they have to get out of the NBA: when offensive player pump fakes, and gets the defender into the air, and then jumps directly INTO the defender for a foul. That is just bullshit, yeah, you faked your guy into the air, do something about it other than CREATING the contact hoping for a pussy bail out foul.

  • Spliff 2 My Lou

    Preach on control!!

  • Dagomar

    No got beef, I think everyone has been saying that for the last couple of years. The difference between the two was long that Pierce plays D and knows how to pass, but now Melo has eclipsed him. The Cavs/Spurs are still finding their way . . . although wow, how bad does this make the Hornets? Will they even make the playoffs? And if they don’t, what does that say about Paul?

  • http://www.nukedasouth.net Chicagorilla

    ChicagoGETTAS! Yeah Baby go Bulls. Yall can keep iggin the Bulls and talking about all that other gay shit. But we all saw the truth in Tony Parker last night. He ain’t fuking with D.Rose. Kirk Hinrich is a defensive monster on the perimeter. Vinny is an ass for not playing Tyrus in the 4th but whatever. Noah needs a new set of hands. Duncan gave him the Bee Kneeess. And last but not least, i have to give credit to Deng-a-Lang for wetting those Jumpers.

  • Diggity Dave

    So far, the Blazers seemed to have blown the #1 pick on a Samuel Dalembert-clone. I don’t care what anyone says, Kevin Durant is 10x the player, and the Blazers made a huge mistake.

  • Bron42 aka Had Springs before Slamball

    @IGP, callin someone cracker and callin someone nigger at on 2 completely different levels and would def get you curb stomped so nice try.

    @Sia, while it wasn’t racist, still faggishly unneeded.

    @Dime, If oden gets those numbers, he’d still be doin more than most centers in the league and more likely to win a ring than durant just jackin shots on a bad team. And Melos offense is sooooooo much smoother than lebrons its not even fair to compare anymore. Lebron may be the best athlete in the NBA today but melo is a way better baller.

  • shake&bake

    Ty Thomas was all over the place, but it’s the same story for him. His energy is his best asset and also gets him in the most trouble.

    I was having a debate the other day about who is better, Hakeem Olajuwon or Time Duncan. Just wanted to see what the Dime World thought. I went with Olajuwon because he’s more athletic and skilled.

  • rangerjohn

    @ 18, i dont agree at all about blair being “exposed”. he played a grand total of 12:43 minutes and had 6 points (3 for 3) and 4 rebounds (2 offensive). hell according to the +/- he was more effective then noah. he was 1 board shy of half of noahs boards even though noah played 26.:56 minutes (more then twice as much). the only thing blairs hight effects his his defense, he doesnt block shots.

    # 28,
    hakeem is more skilled then duncan? athletic sure hands down, but skilled? i dont think so. the thing is, they play 2 different positions really, when you consider how much things have changed since the 80-90’s to today. it is like saying magic was more skilled then kobe, both great players who play “similar” positions but in totally different eras. in the end, if you put dream and TD side by side in one of dimes “whos better” TD wins 7-10 times imo.

  • http://www.nukedasouth.net Chicagorilla

    @shake&Bake

    Seriously as good as Timmy D is, he is not in the mold of Hakeem. for one, he hasn’t had to compete against P.Ewings, David Robinson, Shaq (Duncan guards the PF), For his entire Career and Dominate them. Tim did go up against KG every year, and maybe you can count Amare, but not too many after that because Popovich would never allow Duncan to guard KG, Dirk, Amare, Yao, or any of those guys str8 up. Also, at 7 ft tall and always playing in the post, duncan is a Center, yet somehow considers himself a PF because of the couple years with D-Rob where he played a Hybrid PF/C (D-Rob was at the top of the Key most of the time).

    Hakeem has the 2nd greatest post game ever and he was a champ like Duncan. He beasted Shaq, Robinson, Ewing and anyone who stepped to him. Stats don’t matter they sorta equal eachother with Hakeem a better defender and scorer and Duncan better with passing and boards.

    Hakeem all day anyday

  • http://www.nukedasouth.net Chicagorilla

    @29 Kobe and Magic played the same position? didn’t know Kobe put up 19pts-10assist for his career and was a triple double threat. Also didn’t know Magic was one of the greatest scorers to walk the earth….thanks for the enlightment…now go stab yourself in the face.

  • AdvancedMind

    @ 29

    Im a big fan of Duncan, but you have lost what ever brain cells you had left upstairs if you think Duncan is hands down better the Hakeem.

    Never mind cause i see your opinon isnt worth shit cause you just compaired one of the greatest point guards ever to one of the greatest scorers ever.
    Quickly find a window and jump out of it head first.

  • randomized

    @29 you suck do world favor and die

  • The other Aj

    **Looking at everybody who justified Dime putting BRoy ahead of Melo on the “Go To Guys” List…

  • jjankechu

    If Oden winds up averaging 10 pts 10 boards then *obviously* he’s a bust at #1. But he’s been looking a lot better this year so here’s what I think is a more interesting question: Would Oden be a bust if he topped out at 18 pts, 10 boards, with 2.5 blks (e.g., EB/kaman)?

    @bron42: yeah i get nigger is worse than cracker given the historical baggage* but i like how you just had to throw in faggish too. so for those of us scoring at home, blacks > whites > gays?

    * just a reminder that it wasn’t even a generation ago that civil rights were being fought for, literally.

  • Ric Hardwood

    @Big Sia and @Bron42
    Actually calling someone “cracker” is still racist, it just doesn’t carry as much weight because “Crackers” were not oppressed back in the day… It’s probably the most racial word you can call Caucasians… so it is racist but, whatever … I’m pretty sure Sia isn’t racist…

    (H)Akeem Olajuwon Vs. Tim Duncan
    I’d have to go with The Dream… with a very small margin… The Dream was just way quicker. And his Dream Shake was unguardable…

  • Scotty Walnuts

    “hakeem is more skilled then duncan? athletic sure hands down, but skilled? i dont think so”

    Are you kiddin’…remember the dream shake..etc. More post moves than any big man…ever maybe. (except for good ol’ McHale)

    BTW..This is Carmelo’s year to sshhhhh all the haters=Melo-MVP candidate this year

  • Scotty Walnuts

    “**Looking at everybody who justified Dime putting BRoy ahead of Melo on the “Go To Guys” List…”

    Agreed..

  • Jacqueline Mitchell

    I enjoyed the Bulls/Spurs game last night but, what I really wanted to do was stick my hand if I could through the television and slap Joakim Noah. He works my last nerves with that ugly jump shot.

  • http://www.nukedasouth.net Chicagorilla

    @Jacqueline

    Yes…oh yes. My niece (who plays HS ball as a freshman) had me rewind it several times just to laugh at his jumper. but the thing that annoys me most is his yelling on every rebound, especially when there is no one around him or challenging him for the rebound. He actually yelled when grabbing a board of Tony Parker… 6’1 Tony Parker. I hope he plays well enough to trade him.

  • Spliff 2 My Lou

    @rangerjohn

    I don’t care about +/- as long as we win. I’m rooting for Blair. I hope he proves everybody wrong. In fact I wanted the Bulls to draft him. Also I didn’t say Noah was more effective. I just pointed out that there was a few times that Blair had great rebounding position and didn’t get the rebound seemingly because of his height and lack of explosion.

    @ shake&bake

    Good question for debate. TD is just as skilled as Hakeem as just as athletic in my opinion. Hakeem played soccer and TD was a swimmer. The only thing I could really say that Hakeem was better at was off the dribble with a slight edge in shot blocking. Other than that I really can’t choose one or the other. It would’ve been a great treat for any NBA fan if they could’ve played against each other in their prime.

  • King

    Offensively, for centers, The top skill guys are Hakeem and Kareem then eveyoe else. And defensively With his quickness, Hakeem is up
    there with Russell. So yea Hakeem is more skilled than Duncan.

  • jjankechu

    1) duncan is a PF donchaknow? what kind of weird matchup is this?

    2) olajuwon was beastly. although it might be close, olajuwaon’s quicks beat timmy in the end; i’m pretty sure hakeem got more steals and blocks.

  • Jules

    Why would you want to trade Noah? He’s obviously working hard to get better, he got way bulked up this past summer. Don’t hate. and obviously the “cant see me” was a sarcastic gesture.

    and wuts up with Vinny playing Tyrus at the 3. we tried that last yr and it didnt work then…but the guy gets 13 pts in the 3rd and you bench him the 4th? WTF

  • AdvancedMind

    @ 41

    Spurs fans kill me…
    lol @ duncan just as athletic… I actually spit my coffee out onto my keyboard.
    Hakeem use to put his neck dam near in the rim and basically moved like a guard. Slight adavantage in blocks? Yea the all time shot blocker vs a guy who barely reaches 2 a game, mainly cause he cant jump, wich is from a lack of being athletic..
    I guess tony parker plays defense just as good as ike thomas too huh?

  • jjankechu

    Timmy vs. Olajuwon, by the numbers
    (through 13 seasons)

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=olajuha01&y1=1997&p2=duncati01&y2=2010

    points/36: hakeem (+2.2)
    boards/36: tie
    blocks/36: hakeem (+1)
    steals/36: hakeem (+1)
    TO/36: timmy (-0.4)

  • That’s whats up

    Yo, Big Sia… Where my crackers at????

    Chicagorilla – damn son. Your team is 1-0, you ain’t gonna be 82-0 after its done. D-Rose is nice but so is Parker. Next matchup is January 25th – we’ll know by then where each team is headed.

    Melo looks like he’ll lead the league in scoring – if this was a 6 game season. Everyone’s Bold Predictions are coming pretty early. A lot will change in the next two weeks alone, much less a whole season.

    Kansas could beat the Bobcats right now

  • Spliff 2 My Lou

    @AdvancedMind

    Don’t get it twisted. I’m a Bulls fan since day one. I don’t even like the Spurs. I respect them though. Especially TD. But you’re right about the shot blocking. Hakeem was way better than I gave him credit for. Although I still think people do not give TD the credit he deserves defensively.

  • Scotty Walnuts

    “Melo looks like he’ll lead the league in scoring – if this was a 6 game season. Everyone’s Bold Predictions are coming pretty early. A lot will change in the next two weeks alone, much less a whole season”

    True… but I don’t think Melo’s gonna just wake up one day and forget how to pump 25ish one people any time soon…and he’s more athletic than Tim Duncan..(sorry couldn’t resist)

  • Bron42 aka Had Springs before Slamball

    @jjankechu, yes, i said faggish too, did i mean he kisses men? no..but if your gonna put it like that, i think most gays have dealt with more drama than most straight whites so it wold go blacks>gays>whites.

    @Ric Hardwood, first dont put me and sia in the same sentence. second did you say “crackers weren’t oppressed back in the day”? when have they ever been lol and its def not the most racist thing you could say to a white person. Most white people would laugh it off because its such a sad attempt to be racist. You might as well call them a honky. Heck, callin someone trailer trash would be more racist than cracker. my point was, saying cracker and nigger are even close to equal comments is absurd…thats like me calling someones mom a loser or calling her a dirty whore that had them by mistake. both mean, 1 has wayyy more baggage

    I’d go with dream in the other debate.

  • justice

    Man i would pay any amount of money to see that matchup but seeing hoq hakeem fuckup every great center on his era, pat,dav,shaq,zo,dike id put my money on dream he has a better chance of stopping timmy theres no way tim could stop him

  • Spliff 2 My Lou

    Hakeem averaged 3.1 blocks per game for a career. TD 2.4. Not that huge of difference. Even steals isn’t that big of a difference with HO at 1.7 and TD at 0.8 per game. Hakeem played 18 seasons. This is Duncan’s 13th season. Also, I think we can all agree both HO and TD did things defensively that do not show up on the stat sheet.

    Mutombo is the all-time shot block leader and nobody would say he’s extremely athletic or one of the top centers of all-time. Just saying.

  • Spliff 2 My Lou

    *My fault. I meant say that Mutombo is the second all-time leader.

  • control

    Spliff 2 My Lou

    For a 70 year old man, Mutombo was CRAZY athletic…

  • rangerjohn

    ok ok ok, to all the “go die blah blah blah” i say one thing, LMAO its a game, relax, you douche bags take shit to serious. time to grow up JUST A LITTLE 9or a lot maybe?)

    @46, you numbers dont make much since, you are giving HO more credit by going 13 seasons first off, considering TD has played 2 games in his 13th and your numbers give HO an entire season, second 36 min? games are based on 48 last i checked. other wise stats are pretty close.

    now we look at awards,
    HO all nba 1st team 6 times, 2/3rd 6 times total (in 17 seasons)
    all defense, 5 times
    DPOY 2 times
    MVP 1
    RINGS 2
    FINALS MVP 2
    ALL STARS 12 (total of 17 seasons)

    TD all nba 1st team 9, 2/3rd 3 times (in 12 seasons)
    (only player in history to get all nba team in his 1st 12 seasons)
    all defense team 12 times (in 12 seasons)
    DPOY zero
    MVP 2
    RINGS 4
    FINALS MVP 3
    ALL STAR 11 (no game in lock out season and voted in 10 starts)

    (yes i know HO had to play in the “jordan era” and might have gotten more rings, but then we will never know considering they where not supposed to get the 2 they got)

    i give the edge to duncan, and i never said it was that far off.

  • douglas copeland

    ian and everyone of you spurs fan, my point of the spurs being to old was evidenced yesterday when they lost to the bulls. This is why I thought nothing of the Richard Jefferson acquisition. Than they bring another old guy in,Antonio McDyess to fill in for some more old guys. The formula to beating the Spurs is push the ball they’ll tire out soon and you’ll win the game,too many old wheels on that squad it’s time to blow up the team and start rebuilding like i’ve said numerous times. This is why they won’t beat the Lakers or Denver if they come up against them in the playoffs.The nucleus of players on these teams are young if not by age by there play.Spurs were getting beat to loose balls and out ran on fastbreaks. The efforts there they just don’t have the legs anymore.

  • AdvancedMind

    @48

    I agree TD is a soild defender, and one of the better CENTERS of all time, i have a great deal of respect for him, but he never went against the bigmen that The Dream did, Ewing, Robinson, Moses Malone, Kareem, Parrish, Shaq..
    That was a Center heavy era. Td’s era is more so guard heavy, but he is a hall of fame bound, first ballet.

  • http://www.nukedasouth.net Chicagorilla

    2Rangerjohn

    If Tim Duncan was listed at Center like he really should be, he’d lose out on almost all of those 1st team slots because of Shaq. Hakeem had to compete with top 50 all-time players at his position and several all-stars in an Era where Centers reigned supreme (outside of the 70’s).

    Tim Duncan isn’t even considered the best player by Spurs Fan (I know he is though) on his own team (Tony Parker).

    @Splif

    Hakeem avg 1 more steal and nearly 1 more block. Also had he not played those extra years when he was washed up, his Blocks per would be closer to 4. He was feared defensivly while Duncan is just respected.

    Offensively Duncan had the edge early on in their careers, but that had a lot to do with Kareem playing with former #1 pick and same age as him Ralph Sampson. Once Sampson got injured and Hakeem matured, he was 25ppg on the regular. He even avg 2stl and 2+ blks a game for a season. It’s not close man. and I have respect for Timmy.

  • douglas copeland

    “we will never know considering they where not supposed to get the 2 they got”Ranger John your a tool Hakeem earned those we can’t operated on what if’s it happened.TD can’t hold a candle to Hakeem stop with that that fate of your crappy team of retirees can be best understood in blog#56.

  • control

    Chicagorilla

    You can’t say there are many Spurs fans out there who think Tony Parker is better and more important to success than Tim Duncan (which is why you didn’t pluralize it I’m guessing). So you can’t really use that an argument.

  • shake&bake

    @41: When I said that Hakeem was more athletic, I’m not talking about playing soccer vs. swimming, I’m talking about that he’s quicker, more agile, and a better jumper than Duncan.

  • Ian

    chicagorilla
    its one game and parker isnt fuckin with rose?? im sorry but is rose in the top pg in nba argument? its been a while since the jordan era that u guys get excited over one win.

    td vs dream
    you guys must be kidding is not even close based on accomplishments and excuse me for pointing this out duncan is a top 7 player alltime hakeem is top 20.
    dream wasnt even the most accomplish center (awards wise) from 89-95 daves prime and i came make a case for shaq over him also. now give me a pf that can give a run to td for that 1 spot.

  • http://www.nukedasouth.net Chicagorilla

    @Control,

    I was going off a article about Parker posted earlier this year by DIME where all the Spurs fans posting on that article stated Parker was the best player with Tim 2nd or maybe 3rd behind Ginoboli. I was one of the few arguing in Tim Duncans favor. That’s why I used that as an argument.

  • AdvancedMind

    @ 62
    This is why i rarely post in these forum.
    Its like the special olymipc 100 meter dash…
    like i said spurs fans kill me..
    Ganobli better the Clyde Drexler too? lol

  • http://www.nukedasouth.net Chicagorilla

    @ian

    Seriously? David Robinson is closer to Hakeem than Duncan. Awards don’t mean anything (although Hakeem has his MVP, finals MVP’s and shitted on your beloved Admiral over and over)

    You don’t count in this debate, because you have spurs blinders on. No one will listen to you

    And No Rose isn’t better than Parker because of one game, He’s better than him because Parker is…say it with me…. OVER RATED!!!! Once Duncan and Pop leave, he’s 12ppg and 6asst shotting 42% Fgs. He’ll probably retire early with some fake injury.

    And who the F^k told you that Parker is in the top Pg argument. ask any real NBa player and they will not mention TP as a top 5 PG. Paul, Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Devin Harris, Derrick Rose, Baron Davis, even Jason Kidd, all will be mentioned before TP coat tail riding ass. Can’t wait for Duncan to retire.

  • rangerjohn

    HAHAHAHAHAHA @ 59.
    your right, hakeem and the rest of the rockets where the odds on favorites to win it all both years they won. (and im the tool?) especially 1995, when they where expected to get the boot in every single round (utah, phx, sa, orl).

    and for your “spurs are old” comments, you spurs haters have been saying that since 2005 and the spurs still prove you guys wrong year in and year out.

    # 58, i dont know what spurs fans you been talking to but 95% of south texans know TD is still the best player on his team. parker is taking over but shit still runs through TD hands down (as shown by last nights game).

    it figures the spurs lose one game (a close game generally speaking) and all the nay sayers come out of the wood works, where where you guys yesterday, the day after the spurs 20 pieced your beloved CP3 and his hornets? yeah didnt think so.

  • AdvancedMind

    Spurs fans kill me cause half those jerk offs are fair weather fans that dont even live in TEXAS…
    Much like Laker fans.

  • http://www.nukedasouth.net Chicagorilla

    Best Pf of all time.

    Barkley, Karl Malone (2nd all-time scorer), KG (20-12-5-1.5,1.5 for his career!!!!!!), then comes Tim Duncan. Shake the cum off your brain and get some knowledge. Just because D.Sterns hype machine (and Charles B) exaggerates about how great Timmy is, doesn’t mean people actually believe that shit. He’s not the best PF all-time, you can make the argument, but his circumstance are 20X better than everyone on the list. He’s had the best coach in the L for years, and always has talent around him, Malone had Stock and Sloan, but he had to battle Mike, Scottie, Phil. And we already know about Barkley and KG with thier shitty teams.

  • rangerjohn

    @ 65
    damn you take the cake man, your credibility flew out the window and passed mine by a mile!

    “ask any real nba player” LMAO lets call up mr rose, lets call up kobe, lets call up cp, lets call up ai, lets call up labron, you got their numbers? holy shit!!!!!

    parker is a 12 ppg guy huh, go look up his numbers over the last 3 seasons with TD out, or with td and manu out.

    i am sorry rose is your best chance at an all star since MJ and all (not so sure he gets the nod this year either) but you guys in chicago have got to stop lying to yourself.

  • douglas copeland

    advanced mind that he these cats get when you talk about the spurs Ranger John and Ian are the zenith of ignorance. You guys are you serious TD better than Hakeem?Wow.Hakeem is a top 3 best centers of all-time,Hakeem would wipe the floor with TD.Hakeem spent the latter end of his career crapping on TD’s idol/mentor David Robinson.1.)Kareem 2.)Wilt 3.)Hakeem in that order.TD top 7 player of all-time?Again he’s not even the best player of his decade that goes to Kobe

  • LakeShow84

    Anyone who says TP is more valuable to the Spurs than Timmy lets just see how many drives to the hoop TP has when Timmy is gone..

    Tony even said he told Manu one day “we better enjoy this while we can” and he was referring to playing with Duncan.. Notice how late the big men are to get to Tony half the time.. WHY?? You dont leave a First Ballot HOF open thats why..

    And Rose WILL be the best PG in the NBA.. in 2 years.. maybe faster.. Kids got “it”.. not crazy silly stats (which we all seem to be fascinated with nowadays) but IT.. hes a winner..

  • LakeShow84

    The Big Fundamental over The Dream all day sorry..

    1st) the era arguement actually goes both way for Timmy.. Timmy has been playing in the GUARD ERA.. Bigs arent allowed to DO SHIT as far as contact goes nowadays.. thats why you see C’s working on J’s.. Olajuwon was WAY more athletic but fundamentals trump athletisicm all day and for Timmy to be so effective and lead his team to FOUR championships as a defensive stalwart only speaks of his greatness.. Did Duncan ever need a HOF wing player to get him his rings?? Well the most DOMINANT big man the other side Wilt did..

    2nd) you guys mention bringing up certain bigs that werent even the The Dreams CONFERENCE.. so his road to the Finals wasnt as you all make it sound.. He didnt beat Shaq, beat Kareem, once again abuse Robinson and then finish it off Moses lol yeah he played them but he wasnt neck and neck with them all for chips.. Shit Duncan played Shaq EVERY year almost in the playoffs.. Played KG.. Played Gasol.. played Amare..

    3rd) MAIN RULE OF ALL SPORTS – CHAMPIONSHIPS.. all ima say is what was Duncans stat line from his first championship clinching run??? it was a near Quadruple double in pts, rebound, ast and blocks.. Duncan is STUPID clutch.. probably the most clutch big man EVER.. if your PF hits his first 3 of the year for a game tying shot in a HUGE playoff game that man is LEGIT.. PERIOD..

    All this from a born Laker fan..

  • http://www.nukedasouth.net Chicagorilla

    So I just went back to the CP3 vs TP article. and a few Spurs fans (namely IAN) said that TP has been the spurs best player for two years. go check the article.

    http://dimemag.com/2009/09/whos-better-chris-paul-or-tony-parker/

    sometimes people will say anything just to prove their point. Me, I stay the same.

  • Ian

    chicagorilla
    i see uve been hanging with doug. i dont count because i have blinders on? and u said rose is better than parker and no one considers parker in the top pg argument?? please talk about blinders u mentioned kidd and davis lol. top 3 in any order parker , paul and deron period. i have blinders? barkley and malone with their combined zero rings are better than td and i bet ull come back with a no one considers td the best pf ever.

    didnt i post the head to head matchups of hakeem and dave 30-12 adg dave it was only one playoff series when the best team won.
    hakeem
    21pts 11rebs 3blocks
    dave
    21 10 3

    both one mvp
    both one defensive
    both 2 titles

    and i rank hakeem ahead of david on the alltime list
    but if cant say they are close u r ignorant
    but you proved that with the parker and barkley comment.

    ill ask you the same childish way u did who the fuck told you that hakeem and barkley rank ahead of td on an alltime list

  • Ian

    yes like i said hes in the argument with the best not rose.

  • douglas copeland

    respect your points lakeshow84 from one die hard laker fan to another but Hakeem wasn’t just athletic he was as fundamentally sound as we’ve ever seen. Do you think Kobe received coaching from him over the summer because of his athleticism?No. He received coaching from him because his footwork in the post was ridiculous, his move were skill moves. He was athletic but his moves were 100% fundamental and that’s why Kobe says and I agree he is the best to every play in the post from a skills stand point. Put it like this without him TD wouldn’t know half of those move he does he got those moves from somebody that got those from Hakeem.Hakeem’s footwork was ignorant.

  • http://www.nukedasouth.net Chicagorilla

    @Lakeshow84

    Hakeem beat Shaq and Ewing in the finals for one. He also knocked Kareem out the playoffs and led the Rockets to the finals against Larry Bird and the Celtics in his rookie year or 2nd year. He also won his first championship with 6’10 robert Horry playing SF, Clyde didn’t come til the next year. Duncan has had Sean Elliot (all-star) and Manu for his Chips…

    Also if your argument is that Shaq and Ewing were not in the same conference, know that Duncan doesn’t guard the best opposing big man. Also take note of who Duncan faced in the finals, washed up Larry Johnson and Marcus Camby, 6’8 Kenyon Martin and Collins Twin#1, Rasheed Wallace(good player at 15ppg and 8reb 1 blk), Antonio McDyess (avg big at best), Anderson Varajo and Z…LMAO.

    Duncans PG is Tony Parker, while Hakeem had Kenny Smith and Sam Cassell. Don’t get carried away. And i’m not going to hate on Tim D cause he’s one of my favorite NBA players, but i’m not going to be delusional about his status amongst greats.

  • LakeShow84

    Never thought it about like that Doug.. Good point..

    Damn us Laker fans is deep lol..

    Right AdvancedMind??

  • Ian

    hahaha chicagorilla
    duncan had elliot when in 03 05 07?
    manu in 99? or rookie crappy manu in 03? or crappy parker that was benched for claxton in 03?

    the man has won with 11 dif teammates how many people have done that? ill give you a while.

    doug
    so hakeems footwork is like you?

  • K Dizzle

    Revised Go-to-List

    1 Kobe
    2 Wade
    3 Melo
    4 Pierce

    that is all

  • Ian

    btw love when u bash and say parker is overrated an now that u r comparing teams hes great?? hypocrite gtfoh. make some sense

    doug loved that kobe nut huggin moment u had there in a td and hakeem argument.

    this isnt even an argument whos a top ten player and who isnt?

  • LakeShow84

    Hasnt Ewing always been washed up?? And how old was Kareem when the Dream took him?? who was the Celtics C during that Finals?? lol goes both ways my friend..

    u also brought up Horry playing SF like it was a bad thing.. Shit didnt Horry hit big shots during that run as well??

    honestly i dunno ChiTown but i roll with Duncan cuz ive witnessed him do INSANE things when he shouldnt be able too.. and ive followed him throughout his career.. never followed the Dream so im a lil biased..

  • AdvancedMind

    Alot of madness going on here …

  • Ian

    lakeshow
    he forgot to tell u that hakeem came into a team with a good center which helped him beat kareem. of course it goes both ways hes alittle biased to with hate.

  • http://www.nukedasouth.net Chicagorilla

    “honestly i dunno ChiTown but i roll with Duncan cuz ive witnessed him do INSANE things when he shouldnt be able too.. and ive followed him throughout his career.. never followed the Dream so im a lil biased”

    @Lakeshow84
    Man at least you’re honest. Ian is on planet lovetron with 150 Darryl Dawkins clones and no women.

    Also Ewing was a beast in 94 and was battling Hakeem toe-to-toe but John Starks let them down.

    Kareem was 5 years from retirement and was an All-star and may have even been Finals MVP a year or so later when Hakeem played him. The Center for the Celtics was Robert Parish (all-star) Pf was Bird (he started) and off the bench was McHale(beast). I would say Hakeem has played much better talent than Duncan has in playoff series and finals. the Duncan Kg battles were unfair because no matter how bad KG would get at Duncan, he’d still lose because he had no talent. Duncan was getting shitted on by Amare in two seperate playoff series (one with Stephon on his team and the most recent with Nash) before a) the talent of his team won out or B) the NBA suspends Amare and several others to “make sure” (as Dick Bevetta would say) the spurs won. Again, please don’t make me hate on Duncan. Just stop here and i will not have to say anymore.

  • douglas copeland

    tranquillo ian..tranquillo…don’t get mad because I’d take the dream over the 6’10 sloth in a head to head.

  • http://www.nukedasouth.net Chicagorilla

    @Ian,

    Hakeem came into a team with Rodney McCrae as the starting SG and some scrub at pg. Ralph Sampson was already mentioned you idiot (read above). Sampson was not even considered a center because he spent his time on the outside even at 7’4 and super athletic.

    It’s clear that you know nothing about basketball. You only seem to know recent Spurs history and that’s it. which is fine, just don’t pretend you actually know about real basketball players.

  • douglas copeland

    I’m taking dream over shaq and he won three ships for my team…facts are facts Hakeem is a top 3 center of all-time. I’ve never seen a guy with the skill set he had at that size didn’t this dude lead the league in steal one year or he came pretty close?Who does that?I saw this cat pick pocket point gaurds Hakeem was ridiculous and if TD had to go up against this cat he would’ve lost 99 percent of the time.Hakeem was a rare dude.

  • LAballer

    hahahahaha todays smack posts are awesome..keep em goin!!

    ian..you aren’t going to win at all dude..you have ranger arguing with you..thats like having a 5’2 retarded kid play as your center..just not winning sorry..

    oh shit..im offending retarded people now..so blacks, whites, gays, and the mentally challenged have all been offended here today..relax people..stop being so sensitive about shit..

  • AdvancedMind

    @ Doug, yes he did, he picked Tim Hardaways pocket (yes tim hardaway, one of the greatest handles ever)….

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Gabriel-Brogden/507128757 GABRIEL BROGDEN

    I’m with Spliff ::

    “The only thing I could really say that Hakeem was better at was off the dribble with a slight edge in shot blocking. Other than that I really can’t choose one or the other. It would’ve been a great treat for any NBA fan if they could’ve played against each other in their prime.”

    Hakeem’s athleticism AUGMENTED his skill level…can’t separate the two…plus it was a different era, TOUGHER ERA, and Hakeem was bangin’ against GREATS…and they play primarily different positions…and i love Duncan’s game and his spot in NBA history…but Hakeem edges him ever-so-slightly.

  • douglas copeland

    for real advanced mind this cat was a freak once in a life time type center.Dude picked pg’s pockets,blocked shots,shook centers out there shoes,than he can take you to the perimeter and knock down j’s,jump hooks,drop dimes dude was the whole package and I saw this cat take on Goliath’s in the game at the that time and make them look like chicken feed add that to the fact dude just started playing ball at the age of 18 or something stupid like that. Dude was a 1 of 1,none before him none to come.

  • Ian

    laballer that is cruel but funny

    doug nice but one l tranquilo

    chicagorilla

    the best part of the post is that i dont know basketball history that coming from a man that says no one consideres parker a top pg. barkley is better than td.
    td won with elliot and a bunch of superstars according to u but failed to realize he won without them also. when ever i point out the crap u post u come back with something diff. but this one is the easiest u mentioned hakeem destroyed dave but dave avg 24ppg in 45% shootin on that series. ewing accoring to u went toe to toe until starks let him down? ewing vs hakeem finals 18ppg on 35% shooting thats toe to toe for u and dave getting destroyed? isnt that biased crap from u but u prob didnt know that. so again who let who down ? ewing let the knicks down period. now stop posting things u dont know about or do some research first. ewing tried his best for that series to be a sweep but his teammates picked up the slack i guess starks was worn out for the final one.

  • the cynic

    @chicagogorilla

    actually Duncan is listed at PF so Shaq can make the 1st team All-NBA teams. You have to play to make the team. Duncan is also listed at PF because the All-Star game is a popularity contest and YOU GET PAID IF YOU MAKE THE TEAM. Duncan vs Hakeem is dead even draw to me

    —-

    Blair needs to learn to put a body on someone when he rebounds. Pops TNT speech was meant mostly for Blair. Offensive rebounding is about chasing the ball down while defensive rebounding is about boxing out

    Melo gave further proof to what I already knew, that Austin’s Go-to player list was biased towards north-western players. Melo>>>>B. ROy

    Greg Oden looked slightly more explosive in his leaping then he did last year

  • control

    Wow…93 comments arguing about two guys who are undisputed top 5 players…

  • the cynic

    Also Ewing was never a “beast”

  • douglas copeland

    lol.my bad ian one L.you learn something new everyday.

  • douglas copeland

    parker is a top pg in the lead chicogorilla he’s top 5 at the least and barkley goes ahead of neither TD nor Hakeem in the greats arguement.

  • http://www.nukedasouth.net Chicagorilla

    Why i’m even responding is beyond me. I’m bored at work

    So Ewing (the best player and leader of the team) and the Knicks going 7 games in the finals with Hakeem (the Rockets best player) and the Rockets does not count as going to-to-toe?

    David Robinson got shitted on in the 95′ match-up against Hakeem. I’ dont know where you getting these stats from or even if they are accurate. but once David stood there holding that MVP award that he shouldn’t have gotten, Hakeem tore him a new one the rest of the series. He probably still has nitemares about it.

    Also, when did Duncan win a title without a mix of either Popovich, David Robinson, Sean Elliot, Tony Parker, or Manu? I’m not saying its a bad thing, i’m saying he’s in a position to win chips while Barkley, Malone, and Kg were not for 95% of their careers. they also had to battle MJ. And just because I don’t hold TP’s nuts on my tounge like you do, doesn’t mean I think he sucks. He’s good at what he does, but he’s over rated for what he does. I’m sure Popovich would love to have another PG running his team, instead of mister “5 assist per game because i’m trying to make the tabloids” Parker. He’s good, but he should never be on the all-star team ahead of D.Williams, Nash, Davis. He is a product of his enviornment. Lucky him.

  • the cynic

    ^
    Didn’t Malone play with Stockton his whole career and then with Shaq and Kobe?

    Baron Davis over Tony Parker??? lol, go watch baseball where statistics matter

  • douglas copeland

    keem went toes with Shaq,P-Ewing,D.Robinson and bested them and yes he did Kareem enroute to his first finals appearance where they lost to the Celts.I’d say that pretty much covers the top tier of centers the league has ever seen with acception to your boy B.Russell & Wilt

  • Ian

    chicagorilla
    stop it man its getting embarassing
    now toe to toe isnt playing your man to a draw? no is a team thing? so lebron got shitted on by hedo? stockton got shitted on by ron harper?

    now you come with the excuse that it went 7 please the spurs rockets went 6. facts are facts ewing got owned badly on that series dave at least put up something.

    product of his environment and then mention nash and davis? davis mini antoine walker davis lol

    oh those stats are accurate my man google them it show head to head of hakeem vs dave vs ewing vs shaq and everyone owned ewing.

    cynic says on that final line. people we all learned something new today going head to head is being on the best team and winning the series not your matchup. fisher shitted on deron last season in the first round right chicagorilla?

    recap
    6 game series avg 24ppg on 45% vs 7 game series avg 18ppg on 33% (my bad i posted 35 it was 33). sure thing the second one is the best.

  • Ian

    doug
    jabbar ranks higher than hakeem it was just one series im sure (i dont know but it prob happened) the lakers knocked out houston also. besides those resumes dont even come close remember we can argue jabbar as the greatest ever also.

    if you go by that remember that parker has beaten billups , nash , deron , paul , payton , kidd in the playoffs also.
    btw its way better to argue with u than this man posting davis over parker crap.
    its been good but im out for today.

  • jjankechu

    @ control

    “For a 70 year old man, Mutombo was CRAZY athletic…”

    he probably chose 55 when he entered the L because that was his real age.

    @ rangerjohn
    numbers are just numbers, but you just gotta understand them.

    1) True there are 48 min in a game but not too many players (let alone centers) play 48 a game. If you went per game, then whichever played more minutes during the game would have better stats. How many minutes they play is up to the coach (among other factors), so normalizing to 36 makes for a fairer representation of what they did when they were actually on the floor.

    That’s not to say that there isn’t value in playing more minutes. I debated whether or not to list per game or per 36 numbers, but I figured since we’re debating which is the better player (and not which was more valuable over a season/career), per 36 made more sense.

    (and for the record, HO is *better* when looking at per game averages)

    2) My bad including 09-10, but since we’re talking about rate stats the numbers are not going to move very much. here’s their first 12 seasons.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=mhTn0

    Points/36: HO (+2.2)
    Boards/36: HO (+0.2)
    BLocks/36: HO (+1.1)
    Steals/36: HO (+1.1)
    TO/36: TD (-0.3)

    and whoever it was that thinks a full block and steal per 36 (or game) is “close”…i don’t know what to say. i guess think about that as a %. it’s not even close to being close.

    shit, i think just done convinced myself (as did d.copeland). Hakeem was WAY better than Timmy.

    But you can never say none to come. LBJ is going to start having some monster years any second now.

  • Kudabeen

    I’ve never been a big fan of Melo, because he routinely disappeared when it matters most, but I think he got a taste of success last playoffs and while matching up with Kobe he saw that he can look down on one of the best players and know he is better. He was bullying Kobe at times. That doesn’t happen. It is about killer instinct with him and these first to games for Denver he is looking like the best player in the L.

    I think he has a great chance at that MVP this year. He will at least finish as high as he ever has. I’m very impressed by his focus.

  • LakeShow84

    ^ Reallly Kudabeen ?? ^

    I mean really tho lol

  • LakeShow84

    @ Ian, Chicagorilla and whoever else..

    Your aruguements wont matter once Andrew Bynums career is over!!

    Lol ok jk..

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Gabriel-Brogden/507128757 GABRIEL BROGDEN

    Obviously you guys are missing the point:

    THABEET and HIBBERT are better than Hakeem and Wilt combined times 10 raised to the 7th power plus infinite.

  • Dapro

    Damn this a crazy “debate”

    Let me throw this out –

    Td is an alltime great but i watched the dream in his early yrs and in his prime- hands down the best center I’ve ever seen. His bball Iq is equal to Timmy but he has the edge at both ends of the floor.

    Timmy problem was gaurding althletic long bigs – c Amare, CAmby in the finals)

    The dream is the perfect combo of size, speed, and strength for center. In his prime no one can guard him especially when he had extra motivation- c Drob winning the finals

  • http://www.nukedasouth.net Chicagorilla

    @Ian,

    Your head game is vicious, Superhead would be proud.

  • AdvancedMind

    lol @ Ian being super head, except its not rappers getting blessed its the spurs roster, EVEN MATT BONNER?

  • douglas copeland

    blog 111.lmao.

  • Diego

    Damn, 112 comments. I have not read them yet, but my read on Greg Oden: He will be the African-American Joel Przyblla–complete with blocked shots and chronic injuries.

  • Ian

    chicagorilla
    based on that post i imagine you admit you were posting ignorant crap. toe to toe gtfoh

  • baron von faulk

    This is weird to post a couple days after the fact, but I just got done reading this argument (DUNCAN v OLAJUWON), which has already been on this site a million times.

    I feel it my obligation as both a fan of the current Spurs, and the old-school 94-95 Rockets, to point this out:

    DAVID ROBINSON guarded HAKEEM OLAJUWON one-on-one almost the entire series. And he paid the price and got beasted, self-admittedly. Whenever they did double, Hakeem either fought through it and still got the bucket, or made the right pass to a teammate.

    The Houston Rockets sent quadruple teams at the Admiral because the Spurs had NOBODY else to go to. So you absolutely must consider these facts when talking about that monumental series for Olajuwon. The stats are a bit skewed because the Rockets were a superior TEAM. It was one-on-five for the Admiral.