Pound-for-pound crown: Chris Webber vs. Dirk Nowitzki
Dirk Nowitzki (photo. Monte Isom)
The list is undeniably impressive — those who either retired without an NBA championship or went a long time without a ring directly because of Michael Jordan. Members include Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Patrick Ewing, Gary Payton, Mark Price, Alonzo Mourning, Tim Hardaway, Reggie Miller …
Almost as star-studded is the list of talent kept permanently ringless or who suffered longer than expected thanks to Tim Duncan. That one consists of Ewing (again), Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Allen Iverson, Dikembe Mutombo, Kevin Garnett, Latrell Sprewell, Amar’e Stoudemire, Joe Johnson, Deron Williams, Carlos Boozer, LeBron James …
Plus Dirk Nowitzki and Chris Webber. Undoubtedly two of the five or 10 best power forwards to ever play the game, Dirk and C-Webb’s careers have — to this point — been more defined by their failures in the postseason. Dirk has made his mark as probably the greatest shooting big man of all-time, while Webber brought a complete skill set never seen before at the position; a power forward who could have played point guard if he had to. But put up numbers and won individual accolades, and while Dirk still has a chance to win a title before he’s done, may go down as two of the best players never to win it all.
But who has had the overall better career?
Webber played 15 years in the League with five teams, making it to the conference finals with Sacramento (‘02) and Detroit (‘07). He averaged 20.7 points, 9.8 rebounds, 4.2 assists, 1.4 steals and 1.4 blocks — and in 80 playoff games, put up 18.7 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 3.6 apg, 1.1 spg and 1.1 bpg.
Webber made five All-Star and five All-NBA teams, and won Rookie of the Year. He led the League in rebounding in the lockout-shortened 1999 season. Webber ranks 45th all-time in points per game, 47th in total blocks, 50th in blocks per game, and is just outside the Top-50 in a few other categories. His best overall season was probably ‘00-01, when he posted 27.1 points, 11.1 boards, 4.2 assists, 1.7 blocks and 1.3 steals, made the All-NBA First Team, and finished fourth in MVP voting while leading the Kings to the conference semis.
Dirk is in his 12th season with the Mavericks. Through Wednesday’s schedule he’s averaged 22.9 points, 8.5 boards, 2.7 assists, 0.9 steals and 1.0 blocks in the regular season. He led Dallas to the NBA Finals in ‘06 (a loss to Miami), along with one other trip to the conference finals. In 97 playoff games, he’s averaged 25.5 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 2.6 apg, 1.2 spg and 1.0 bpg.
Nowitzki won league MVP in ‘07, and has eight All-Star selections (headed for a ninth) and nine All-NBA nods. He ranks 34th all-time in total points and 23rd in career scoring average, as well as 15th in career free-throw percentage, 30th in free throws made and 43rd in threes made. In his MVP year, Dirk posted 24.6 points and 8.9 rebounds per game, but the Mavs were upset in the first round of the playoffs.
Those are the numbers. Throwing in whatever else you feel is relevant, pound-for-pound, who has had a better career?
December 24th, 2009 at 10:45 am
Randomized says:
Diggler aka goat boy
December 24th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Shrink This says:
I have no idea why Chris Webber’s game gets so much love. I think the only reason he is even talked about anymore is because he has a TV job.
My most striking memories of Webber are of having absolutely no faith in him at the end of a game. And I REALLY wanted he and the Kings to knock of the Lakers every year in the playoffs. He never looked like he wanted the ball and when he did get it he seemed paralyzed with indecisiveness. This led to bad passes and bad shots. I’m not sure he was ever a guy who could single-handedly carry a team either.
Dirk was a league MVP and is at least in the argument most years. I can’t recall ever thinking of Webber as an MVP candidate year to year (even though he finished 4th in the voting as is pointed out). While he did put up reasonable numbers throughout his career, he just didn’t have the impact on games that Dirk does.
I’ve never understood why Dirk has never gotten what I think is due respect here at Dime. A comparison to Chris Webber??? Really? Is that the best his career and talents warrant?
December 24th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Big T says:
Webber was a better passer from the pivot, and had a better all-around defensive game than Dirk. However, on the offensive end of the court, Dirk is more of a force than Webber ever was.
I give the edge to Dirk on this one due to consistency.
December 24th, 2009 at 11:15 am
QQ says:
Dirk.
MVP.
Finals appearance.
More all-stars than CDub.
As much as I loved rooting for the Webber’s 2002 Kings to beat the fucking Laker, Dirk got this.
The numbers/awards just says it all.
December 24th, 2009 at 11:16 am
sutpid says:
zo won a championship with miami (2006)
December 24th, 2009 at 11:19 am
dagwaller says:
I liked C Webb too, but I think Dirk’s got him on this.
December 24th, 2009 at 11:22 am
Celts Fan says:
@Shrink – CWebb probably would’ve won an MVP if his prime hadn’t coincided with Duncan and Shaq’s “I RUN SH(T HERE” primes. Dirk wouldn’t have an MVP either had he had to contend with that.
In the end, we’re talking the best of the group just outside the 5 best PFs ever (which would be, in order, Duncan, McHale, Malone, KG, Barkley.) Both had very interesting games.
CWebb – Shrunk in crunch time. Mike Bibby was their clutch guy. Has to be said. CWebb was the best player (for the first 45 minutes anyway) on a team that was a perennial contender for 6 years and was Donaghy’d out of a probably spot in the ‘03 Finals. He’d have just as many high MVP votes as Dirk had he not had to battle in-their-prime Shaq and Tim Duncan (and KG) in the West every year. His career ended abruptly when the knee injury stole the last of his hops. Also, not shown in the numbers, he is probably the best passing big man we’ve seen in 20 years (Shaq’s #2 and there’s no 3.) One of the greatest what-ifs in NBA history is what if Orlando had kept CWebb and built around Shaq and Webber and the shooters they already had to surround them with (D.Scott, Nick Anderson, Scott Skiles.) That is a dynasty that definitely would’ve stopped MJ from reaching 6 (at least by ‘98, who knows how things shake out if he hadn’t owned the league for 3 years before retiring…) Webber’s D wasn’t bad, but never great.
Dirk – One of the best shooters on the planet. Period. Best shooting big man ever. He, to me, isn’t clutch (sorry, but if you shoot 90% from the stripe all year, then miss 2 of 4 in the last 2 minutes of a close NBA Finals game, what you do in the regular season can’t change that perception, though, admittedly, he’s been cold blooded the last few years. But, if we’re grading “Clutchness” on a 1-10 scale, Dirk gets a 5 or 6, Webber gets a -30) Unlike CWebb, he has been to the Finals (and definitely got screwed by having to play 8 on 5 the last 4 games.) His D is pretty bad and he’s battled the soft tag for a long time (he’s shedding it slowly, but he’ll never be a low post banger that’ll get you 10 boards a game.) To be most effective, you HAVE TO put a defensive-minded, shot blocking center next to him to protect the rim if you want to really contend for a chip (no Erica, you don’t count)
Both were/are true franchise players. Starting a team from scratch, I’d take Dirk and put the right pieces around him, but, depending on how your team is built, Webber wouldn’t be a bad fit. Both are going to make the HOF, but Dirk will end up having a better career (it’s about dead even now, but Dirk’s still got 3 years left to run ish and a few, “slowing down, but he’ll still win games by himself once in a while” years left after that to take that lead for good…)
December 24th, 2009 at 11:32 am
POPPI GEE says:
Dirk’s offense alone pretty much outshines anything you can say for Webber. Webber could pass better than so many big and small dudes.
Gotta go with Dirk.
Webber was ill though, Webber was ill.
December 24th, 2009 at 11:36 am
OverPowered says:
Awards mean nothing. McGrady’s on pace to be a starter in the All-Star game this year, and he’s not even the best guard on his team. MVP voting is a joke.
Anytime Dime compares somebody currently in the league with somebody who’s been outta the game for a minute, cats are gonna automatically side with the current player, because they don’t know anything about the retired player except for some dusty youtube clips.
To me they’re the same, a side-kick type player not able to lead their respective teams to a championship. Webber will forever remembered for a timeout and Dirk for choking up a 2-0 Finals lead (unless something dramatic happens with Dirk…which honestly won’t happen).
Head-to-head though, Dirk…and not by much.
December 24th, 2009 at 11:47 am
JoeCozi says:
Being from Sac my first thought was Webber of course…but then after thinking about it Dirk is better tho…more clutch then webber who’s the only superstar that NEVER wanted to take the last shot…plus i like to use dirk in my raps more….”ghetto first always choosin from the worst have these locked up bitches knocked up like dirk”
December 24th, 2009 at 11:48 am
haslem says:
@ Shrink this
I’ve always felt Dirk dosent get the respect he deserves in general. It’s not even dimes fault, but how many times do sporting websites have to REMIND us that dirk is really good. Dirk is doubted like no other.
December 24th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Ian says:
dirk by a mile imo.
but webber in his prime was the second best pf in the game over kg.
dirk flaw is his d and that isnt exactlys webbers strong point.
December 24th, 2009 at 11:57 am
Celts Fan says:
@Haslem – cuz his game at the 4 is completely unique. It’s so outside the mold that it’s hard to rank. He doesn’t really play D or rebound like a 4, but he will shoot your face off and is a franchise player. How do you compare that to a more traditional guy that’s close to his level? (like a Pau Gasol?) It’s tough…
December 24th, 2009 at 11:59 am
eyes says:
It’s funny who everybody Remember’s Webber for his Kings days. He had already been robbed of most of his athletic ability. The era C-Webb played in doesn’t compare to this one. C-Webb trade & him staying were the big reason the KINGS were there in the first place. Bibby actually owes a lot of his career & that huge salart to the screens & open threes Webb provided him. He almost one BACK 2 BACK NCAA CHAMPIONSHIPS IN COLLEGE WHEN IT WAS LIKE A ALL STAR GAME EVERY GAME. Lastly one was a post player & face up guy PF & Dirk is a SF no comparison. It’s like comparing Mchale & Bird you don’t do that. I agree Dirk hasn’t gotten his fair share of accolades & love mostly because he’s European. I would say this he’s more of a 1 option than Carmelo has become yet. In time I hope Melo learns how to win & can get out of the Gil/JJ/ & sometimes LB category.
December 24th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Guitar Hero says:
Dirk gets the nod here. He dominated for a longer period of time than C Webb – and still does, and is a quite unique player, a PF like we’ve never seen before.
League MVP, led his team to the Finals…
And he’s becoming a better defensive player in the last 2 years, which was (and still is) his weak point. That means he WORKS HARD on his game. He’s one of the most durable players in the game as well.
C-Webb was neither. But he was a VERY skilled player, of course. Just not in Dirk’s league.
December 24th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Dapro says:
This is a tough one because C -Webb was the total package on offense. He was nice with G-state and Washington but had some off the court issues, then completly turned around a dead franchise in Sacto.
The knock on C-Webb has always been he chokes when it matters most and that may true to some degree. His career playoff numbers declined vs the regular season but he had some memorable playoff games against elite players- rookie yr against Barkley, battles against Kg, and of course the Lakers at a time when the game was much more physical.
Dirk is great shooter but he also benefited from playing with two of the HOF pgs. Not to take anything away from Dirk, he delivered in clutch situations but the bottom line is he has some blemishes on his record- the Miami series and the G-State series tarnish his legacy as an all time great.
As of right now I’m taking Webber.
December 24th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Celts Fan says:
@Eyes – you understand that the Fab Five didn’t win ANY titles, right? Not “nearly back to back.” None. Remember why they lost to UNC? Let’s just say Ray Jackson, Jimmy King, Juwan, and Jalen didn’t call that time out.
December 24th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Celts Fan says:
For the record, I liked CWebb (much more than I like Dirk,) just calling it like I see it…
December 24th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Me says:
Webber was a choker.
Dirk would have a ring if stern didn’t give it to Wade. That series and the 2001 playoffs had me convinced the league was rigged. (when Milwaukee should have been in the finals and would have beaten the lakers). So as far as I’m concerned Dirk should be a champion. Webbers team was robbed by some shoddy offficiating too but that wasn’t the finals. Recently dirks also shed the non-clutch label.
Webber was entertaining but he’s not who you want on your side when it’s time to go to war. I dint even think webber would pick himself over Dirk in a clutch situation.
December 24th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
um.... says:
Talking about league success….
Webber never had Nash or Kidd. He had Tim Hardaway for like a year so meh…and Bibby just doesn’t cut it.
Dirk doesn’t play like PF, he’s pretty much a taller SF
That aside, as Pound for pound – I’d suggest you guys compare Dirk to Toni Kukoc instead.
Both are european shooting big men with similar height, played for a good team, competed in Olympic games.
Kukoc won some chips with the Bulls while playing a fairly important role (6th man I believe).
Dirk has an MVP under his belt and led his team to a final and better than Kukoc stats-wise.
If that was a debate, then I would give a nod to Dirk as for individual success.
December 24th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
ab_40 says:
gotta take dirk on this one. dude came out of nowhere is the only guy who combines being 7 foot tall with a shot like that(bob mcadoo did the whole shooting thing too while combining a rebounding edges hence the mvp award with 30 and 15 in the 70s somewhere but hey chuck is better right?… hell no) Dirk will shoot your face off except if you are 6-8 and love to defend haha.
Cwebb I never felt his game… he was good but never on that level where you thought wow this guy is amazing. and he didn’t have a clear skill a clear go to move with which opponent would know that if they gave it to em he’d kill them.
they both don’t like to rebound a lot. if you’re that tall and can move like that and get minutes like that you are the only person that is stopping you from getting at least 13 boards per game… ask shaq who’s rebounding high came in his rookie season.
I’d give the nod to Dirk. check the rookie year stats the improvement after that and his shooting.
they both arn’t clutch and would be better suited to have a killer wing player with em jason terry and the doug christie/peja stojakovic/mike bibby wing men just weren’t cutting it. ah well…
dirk has got my vote on this one. and ME you are from milwaukee right?
December 24th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Ian says:
waitt
now dirk is lucky because he played with nash and kidd??
first nash do you guys remember he was shit when he started in dallas right? and even on his best season there he wasnt as good as dirk or even in his prime finley.
ason 50 year old anyone can drop 40 on me kidd?? you are kidding right?
dirk has always been the man in dallas unlike webber that always choked and needed bibby to save his ass in the playoffs so if someone did benefit from a pg when it mattered it was webber.
December 24th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Ian says:
ab
chuck is overrated
top 5 pf hell no.
December 24th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
hooper5013 says:
I will slap the shit out of anyone who thinks for a millisecond that Kevin McHale was better than Chuck Barkley! Chuck and Duncan are 1 n 1b @ PF!
Dirk has had the better career of the two…but in their primes Chris would have gave Dirk Hell on both ends because he was athletic as hell pre injury
December 24th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
jeremy says:
cwebb would’ve put dirk in the torture chamber in his prime
December 24th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
weng santos says:
I’ll take 01 CWebb and 09 Dirk please. CWebb can play quarters 1 and 3, Dirk quarters 2 and 4. Haha!
December 24th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Bron42 aka Had Springs before Slamball says:
Considering its apples and oranges its not really a choice. Webber was a better leader and passer and defender. Dirk is a better overall scorer, mostly just cuz he has 3 point range. Both will probably be remembered more by their failures/choking on the big stage.
P.S: the list of supposed guys who didn’t get rings is such a stretch its retarded. Iverson didn’t get his ring cuz of the lakers, not cuz of duncan. KG didn’t get his ring cuz the wolves sucked, its not like the teams were close and duncan just dominanted them himself. This whole argument is stupid. Jordan and the bulls CRUSHED HALL OF FAME GUYS IN THE FINALS to stop them. Or in the conference finals. You can’t name guys who didn’t even meet up head to head ala iverson/duncan and say “oh duncan stopped him from getting a ring.” Jordan beat barkleys suns, beat payton kemp sonics, malone stockton jazz, the knicks, reggie. Like his team personally stopped those guys from getting rings. YOu can’t just randomly name the superstars in duncans era and say HE stopped them from getting rings when they barely even play eachother in meaning full games. I mean duncan stopped joe johnson? when was this? List time joe played in the west playoffs he was breaking his face on the foor against the mavs. When did duncan have anything to do with it. Duncans a alltime great PF, but you guys are realllly reaching when you compare his teams every other year dominance to jordans “your only gonna get a ring when i get bored with the game” three peats.
December 24th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Sacto_J says:
Webber would stuff Dirk in the toilet and flush his fluffy blond euro-fro down the drain. AND, C-Webb and Co. routinely sent Irk Nowitzki and the Allas Mavericks fishing until Webb blew his knee out in ‘03 Semis. Irk had and never will have any D, which is why, even though the skill sets aren’t the same, Webber is the better PF. The Dirk face couldn’t get to the finals until Webber left the west….
December 24th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
Austin Burton says:
@Bron42 — In Iverson’s last playoff appearance, the Nuggets lost to the Spurs. Would AI and Melo have been able to lead that Denver team to a title if they’d gotten past San Antonio? Probably not, but the fact is Duncan did directly end AI’s postseason on the last decent team he played for.
Duncan’s Spurs beat the Suns when Joe Johnson was one of their key players. I believe it was Nash’s first MVP season, and that Phoenix team won 60-plus games. They were a title contender.
December 24th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
Bron42 aka Had Springs before slamball says:
@Austin, any real basketball fan never took the suns as a title contender. Exciting yes but never serious title contendera cuz to this day they can’t get stops when it matters. And the iverson nuggets also lost to the lakers too. So again your reaching. Jordan beat teams who were probably his equal. Neither iversons nuggets or the suns were really dominant teams.
@at anyone who said webber us a choker, um Dirk followed up a MVP season by gettin bounced in the 1st round to the last place team. And his other huge appereance he lost a 3-1 lead in the finals. Tmac lost like that in the first round an never lives it down. So Dirk is just as big a choker as webber I not more since webber didn’t really choke after college, just ran into the lakers… A lot
December 24th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
that's whats up says:
two different dudes, two different styles…
If C-Webb wasn’t always injured or playing for crap teams….who knows….
When he played, and played well, he was a beast – but that wasn’t often enough
I don’t like Dirk but his offensive game is undeniable
I’d go with Diggler
December 24th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
that's whats up says:
(above – referring to playing well in Sacto)
Wizards days – he stunk. GState – pretty good, but not great.
Philly and Detroit – child please
December 24th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
DZ says:
I like Chris lot more than that german dude, but Dirk is just lil bit better…
December 24th, 2009 at 9:03 pm
Austin Burton says:
@Bron42 — That first year Nash arrived, we didn’t yet know that the fast-paced style wouldn’t get them a title. It was something the League hadn’t even seen (at least not to that level); the Suns were the talk of the League and a lot of experts were picking them to go all the way as the season went on, at least that’s how I remember it.
December 25th, 2009 at 1:25 am
Ben says:
Fact is, both got robbed by Mr. Stern!!!
CWebb in 2002 against the Lakers and Dirk in 06 against
Miami!!!
December 25th, 2009 at 3:01 am
Ian says:
bron
same thing can be said about jordan he didnt eliminate all the players every year
and yes a team that makes to conf finals can be considered title contender.
December 25th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
realtalk says:
@Bron – If a guy who has the most game-winners in the past 4 years, more than Kobe Bryant, is a “choker”, then sure. The Big German’s the biggest choker of all time.
December 25th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
Big V says:
In terms of their overall games, Dirk’s really got the edge over C-Webb in one category and that’s shooting. Otherwise, Webber was a more complete player, better passer, defender, and had a better low-post repertoire.
Careerwise, although I hate to admit it, I have to give it to Dirk. He’ll be remembered as a better player than Webber when it’s all said and done, and I guess that’s the only criterion that really matters.
December 28th, 2009 at 10:15 am
Kevhous says:
Most of the people on this list must be to young to remember Cwebb in his prime. Dirk is a scorer and thats it. In his prime Cwebb would lock up your teams PF and give him buckets in a time when the league was ruled by power forwards. For most of his 15 yrs Cwebb played on really weak teams. his years in Sac town proved what he could do with the right cast around him but they couldnt close the deal. I dont think that was webbs fault. rick adlemen has never beat phil and bibby missed some clutch shots too
January 19th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
Brandon says:
I’m sorry but I see absolutely no comparison between these two players. You’re comparing an apple to a rotten grape. C-Webb was a very serviceable player at times in his career. Dirk is a Hall of Famer – simple as that. It’s bad enough that I have to listen to C-Webb on TNT talk trash about Dirk’s game but this comparison is the ultimate insult.