Latest News, NBA / Feb 26, 2010 / 10:30 am

Where does Kobe rank among basketball’s all-time greats?

Kobe Bryant (photo. Chris Sembrot)

“And now, the rest of the man’s legacy is on the line. Is Kobe a Top-10 player of all-time? Top five? We’ve created a glass ceiling wherein nobody can touch Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Magic and Bird — and often but not always, Oscar, Jerry West, Kareem and Doctor J — that Kobe is threatening to shatter.

“Why not? Kobe has more rings than Bird and more buckets than Magic; he’s better defensively than West, better offensively than Russell, more clutch than Wilt. His flair for the dramatic is exceeded only by Jordan.”

Dime’s Austin Burton wrote that in this month’s Kobe cover story, and it’s an argument that will only grow more intense and complicated as Kobe breaks more milestones and (possibly) wins more championships. You can go on for days: Isiah Thomas and Hakeem Olajuwon won more ‘chips as “The Man” on their respective teams than Kobe; Tim Duncan has more League MVP’s and just as many rings; Moses Malone and Steve Nash also have more MVP’s; Alex English and Dominique Wilkins scored more points; then Shaq and Charles Barkley have had their accomplishments, stellar as they are, bolstered by fan-favorite personalities — an X-factor which may hurt Kobe’s legacy down the road. And on, and on, and on…

Some say he’s already the best L.A. Laker of all-time, but where do you think Kobe will finish his career ranked among the greatest players in basketball? Or, if he retired tomorrow, where does he rank right now?

Tell us, and we’ll run some of the best answers in an upcoming issue.

(Dime reserve the right to edit submissions for length and clarity.)

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  • Michorizo

    Right up there with the best of the best…ranked right up there with the elite.

  • MBE18

    I think you gotta wait until he retires so you can compare his ENTIRE career against the greats. Right now, top 15 easily.

  • ToAn

    right now top 15, with another title top 10 clearly and 2 more titles top 5. if he plays another 5 years on top level (realistic) and doesn’t win another title, even then he will be easily top 10 just with his records (points, playof points, playoff wins etc. )….if he wins 3 more titles then he has to be top 3 (7 titles, probably 2nd or 3rd best scorer in history, most playoff wins and many many more records). just enjoy him while he is still playing.
    P.S. he is even more impressive when you compare him to Tmac or KG who also came from HS to NBA and their body just falls apart.

  • http://dime AdvancedMind

    He ranks about right in that area between my balls and ass…
    O yea my Taint.
    Hes deff is in the top 5 all time Ball hogs..
    My opinion he is top 3 in a horrible basketball area..

  • Jeffco

    Kobe is the G.O.O.T.
    The Greatest of Our Time!
    He’s better than the great, but the greatest (MJ) will always be greater.

    Well that’s just speaking from now. Who knows, maybe Kobe will go out with a bang these last 4 or 5 years he has left.

  • FallODaLdr

    He’s obviously better than Bird. Magic, Kareem and Jordan are the top three of all time. People put Russell up there because of rings, but lets face it, he won the majority of his champioships in an 8 team league. Not exactly hard to do when you have the 4 of the 7 best players in the League at the time. Wilt is a stat filler but not exactly a consistent winner, so Kobe goes ahead of him. Duncan has the rings but Kobe’s been to the finals 6 times. TD is hard to argue with though. Kobe’s career RIGHT NOW is easliy top 10. When its finished, if he adds 2-3 more rings, he will be the greatest player of all time. Everyone get off Jordan’s nuts. The majority of DIME readers don’t even remember Jordan playing or even saw live games. Jordan was good, but his compitition was extremely weak. Look at the people who were “guarding” him in any highlight on you tube. Not exactly defensive stoppers by today’s standards. Kobe does it in a league where the average player is as athlethic (or close) as Jordan. Plus, Kobe is the only player who is stilled allowed to be handchecked on every play. Jordan did it in a league that loved him, Kobe does it in a league that hates him. What’s tougher?

  • http://www.onthenet.biz Khalvin

    Top 10 for sure, Gets a little sticky if you want to place him in top 5, that requires Legend status.

    At the end of it all Kobe could pull it off though. Maybe pushing out Bird or Magic?

    Raw Talent of the day
    http://www.onthenet.biz/2010/02/raw-talent-of-day_20.html

  • Hollywood

    Easily in the top 5-10, his legacy will shake itself out once he has hung it up.

  • Celts Fan

    He’s top 10 right now. He needs A TON of help to get to #1, but he’s already top 10. I’d say it’s:

    1. MJ
    2. Magic
    3. Kareem
    4. Russell (greatest winner in the history of sports. This HAS TO count for something. “You play to win the game!”)
    5. Wilt
    6. Oscar
    7. Duncan
    8. Shaq (I almost put both Bird and Kobe over him cuz of the lack of back to backs and very “laid back” attempts at off-season workouts, but in his apex, he was the closest thing we’ll ever see to Wilt in the modern game AND was clearly the best player on those Lakers title teams. From ’94-’03, there was no one other than maybe MJ you’d rather have from any period of basketball. Ever. You did not want it w/ the Diesel. Could have been all the way up to #2 – hell, #1 was in play – if he’d just gave a damn. Put Kobe’s work ethic in Shaq’s head and it would’ve been over. Instead, I think I’d take Duncan over him. Kind of a shame actually…)
    9. Bird
    10. Kobe (if I’m from LA, I can make a very legit case for Kobe over Bird here, but I’m not, so when it’s close, my homerism will always win out.)

  • http://dime AdvancedMind

    @ 5
    Obviously better then Bird?
    Most retarded statement of the day…

  • Shady

    I definitely think Kobe will be top 5 by time he retires. I do think it is a damn shame he has only one 1 MVP and will most likely never win another. For the past 5 years he has arguably been the best player in the league. The fact that Steve Nash won two MVPs during Kobe’s prime makes me sick (and I do love Steve Nash, but Kobe deserved MVP at least one of those years).

  • http://heckler@aol.com Heckler

    no matter where Kobe is on your board now, it won’t get worse. He can (and will) only get higher on anyones personal list.

    some say top 15. he’ll be top 10 with then before he’s done. some say top 10, and he’ll be top 5-7 with them before he’s done.

    all Kobe needs really, is 1 more chip and two more scoring titles and 1 more MVP award.

    at this point, alls Kobe needs are mainly individual awards. he has enough chips (4 and counting).

    and if he cracks the top 5 all-time scoring list; then that’ll be enough in itself to get him into the top 5 of alltime talk

  • The Other Aj

    Lol @ AdvancedMind

    Kobe is in the top 10 easily right now

    the only people who are over him now (all time greats) not in any particular order:

    Jordan
    Russell
    Wilt
    Magic
    Bird
    Oscar
    Logo
    Kareem
    Doctor J
    Shaq/Duncan/Malone (any one)

    Kobe has to be in that 9th or 10th spot…

    Nobody in their right mind thinks Nash, Barkley, Nique, Isaiah, etc is better than Kobe.

  • http://www.onthenet.biz Khalvin

    @FallODaLdr
    Dude remember character counts Russell is not just up there for rings
    * first African American NBA coach
    * one of the first African American basketball stars
    Battling against diversity and being a role moedel counts for plenty not to mention his many many accolades as a ball player.

    Learn your history before throwing in comments like that.

    I will leave the rest of what you wrote for others to dissect.

  • Celts Fan

    @FallODaLdr – Kobe’s doing it in a league that’s changed its rules to allow guards to be dominant (it’s def more entertaining that way, but still,) and calls Flagrants based on how guys fall. Jordan played in a league where Dr. J and Larry Bird choked each other out at mid-court and neither even got thrown out. “The Jordan Rules” would end with an entire team being ejected within 5 minutes now. Different era, different styles, but don’t act like MJ played under the same rules Kobe does only back in 1950.
    and btw, Kobe has exactly ONE title as an alpha dog. We can revisit this if he gets 2 or 3 more, not a second earlier…

  • Soopatroopa

    No way Kobe breaks the Top 5 of Bird, Magic, Wilt, Russell, and Jordan.

    And for those saying Kobe is better than Bird – really?!?! REALLY?!?!?

  • karizmatic

    @ Fall

    Ehhh you can say what you want to say. Personally I am old enough to have watched Jordan play and for you to say what you’re saying is ridiculous. The average player is close to the athletic ability of Jordan? are you kidding me? First off there are a bunch of guys who play shooting guard in the league who really should be playing point ala Ben Gordon, second you must not realize the kind of athletic ability Jordan had. Kobe’s athletic ability is close to Jordan. Kobe doesn’t even have as much athletic ability as Jordan. So to say that Kobe plays in a league where the average player basically is equal to his ability is just not true. But we just disagree here. Jordan doing what he did is tougher. I still argue with anyone that Jordan scoring 63 against the Celtics in the playoffs, was more impressive than Kobe scoring 81 in a regular season game aganst the Raptors.

  • QQ

    I say he’s 11 all-time. It’s the best position to placeh him. Not too high, as his career is not over yet, and it will be unfair to the greats who already finished their careers, yet high enough to really say that Kobe is now a legend.

    1. Jordan
    2. Magic
    3. Wilt
    4. Bill Russell
    5. Bird
    6. Big O
    7. Jerry West
    8. Kareem
    9. Elgin Baylor
    10. Dr. J
    11. Kobe

  • Drink the Haterade

    Kobe should be top 5. The problem for Kobe is that he came on the back end of Jordans career (when the NBA was deaming every 2 guard as the next MJ) and hit his prime @ the beginning of LBJ’s career (the most hyped athlete ever @ the time)

    So Kobe has to win two more chips to be top 5 when all is said and done. At least I think thats the way the media will see it.

  • Celts Fan

    @Shady – Kobe did not deserve an MVP back then, regardless of his individual accomplishments. During those years, Kobe was one of the worst teammates EVER, helped push Shaq outta town (though there’s a lot more blame for Shaq than anyone ever gave him,) and his teams didn’t contend. Nash’s first MVP shoulda gone to Shaq but his 2nd one was deserved (make Boris Diaw a legitimate player and take a team that was basically Nash, Matrix, and a bunch of average-to-below average guys – remember Joe Johnson had left at that point too, to contender status and you deserve the MVP. It’s the same reasoning I’d use to say JKidd deserved one too, ‘cept his prime coincided w/ the Diesel and Duncan’s.)

  • http://deleted dagwaller

    Wow. First of all, nice write-up. Good way to phrase the question, in my mind.

    Second of all, I’m concerned, because in theory, the NBA will be around for another 100 years. If that’s the case, every 10 years, we’re going to have some transcendental talent passing through, and I’m going to be one of those old timers that clings to Jordan, Malone, Duncan, Shaq, etc haha. Maybe by 2100, we’ll have an objective way of comparing talents.

    Finally, to sum up Kobe’s career, I’ll think of it as similar to Bernard King. King was no doubt a great player. He’s on the “top 60 players of all time” list (TNT) and has been nominated for the Basketball Hall of Fame. Yet I don’t know all that much about him other than that he’s a high scoring SF that got hurt, cutting his career short. Why? Because he also was pretty famous for being on drugs.

    Kobe Bryant, to my knowledge, has never gotten into trouble for using drugs. However, he’s such a polarizing player that I don’t think people will think of him as kindly as they do other greats of the sport. The cheating on his wife, forcing Shaq to trade him, and his forcing a trade to the Lakers stand out as highlights in a career that, compared to, say, Tim Duncan’s, is just distasteful.

  • Mark

    I think it’s impossible to rank because we’re more prone to list player’s we’ve witnessed during our time over legends of the past. Case in point: I’ve heard of Russell’s dominance, but I’ve seen Shaq’s dominanace. It makes a significant impact bearing witness.

  • http://dime AdvancedMind

    @ FallODaL
    What you wrote is completely retarded and no disrespect, but your a fuckin idiot..
    lmao a league that hates Kobe, what fuckin league is that?

  • dragonyeuw

    “Not exactly defensive stoppers by today’s standards. Kobe does it in a league where the average player is as athlethic (or close) as Jordan”

    Lmfao. The average defensive player is NOT as athletic as a young Michael Jordan. Secondly, being a great athlete doesn’t make one a great defender necessarily. Great defense is based on positioning, anticipation, having a nose for the ball, footwork. It’s not based on running a 4.3 40 yd or having a 40″ vertical. Ron Artest and Bruce Bowen aren’t exactly elite athletes by NBA standards, and they’re two of the best perimeter defenders to play.

    Also, defensive rules in recent years have allowed perimeter players to thrive more. The league has lessened physical play overall, which allows great perimeter players uninterrupted drives to the basket, and tons of free throws for being looked at too hard. Have Kobe Bryant play the 92 Knicks or 89 Pistons, and see if he puts up 81 points on them.

  • Yoooo

    Steve Nash has 2 MVPs and isn’t even a Top 5 PG of all time. It was a TRAVESTY that he won ONE of those, let alone 2. One of those MVPs was J-Kidds for having as dominant a season from the PG spot ever with the Nets. And the other MVP was Kobe’s for taking Smush Parker and Kwame Brown and Chucky Atkins to the playoffs in the Western Conference. Those Laker teams were TERRIBLE. Not one player besides Kobe Bryant is an NBA starter right now. Lamar Odom is the closest thing to one and back then he was still squeamish to play like a man with his skill should.

    The handcheck rule-argument is ridiculous. Jordan or any of those players never had to play against a zone where basically the whole damn lane is clogged. Zone in the NBA forced players like Kobe to develop outside shots WAY earlier than Mike did.

    Kobe has been selfish, he shows flashes of selfishness even today. But wasn’t Mike JUST as, if not more, selfish than Kobe?? Punching teammates, cursing teammates out. Getting coaches fired, players traded… Mike wasn’t anybody’s saint. He cheated on his wife for YEARS, did coke (not the cola), and gambled to the point it got his father killed. Yet because he rose to fame during a time where the media coverage was a fraction of what it is today, he wasn’t as crucified/vilified as Kobe is. Any dickhead can get on youtube and say Kobe did this or Kobe did that. Back then it would have had to come from a news outlet, and they weren’t trying to break stories of that magnitude because they WORSHIPPED athletes. Now you see athletes out here getting robbed and shot like they’re just some corner kids.

    But on the basketball tip, Kobe is THE player of his generation. His numbers speak for themselves. He’s been disrespected because of the negative twist modern day media LOVES to put on ANY story involving young black men. And his run ins with media have greatly effected his legendary status as one of the greatest ball players EVER. Which is sad. Skill wise, he may be the best of all time as he does have more SKILL than Mike, but Larry had more skill than Kobe. Throw in athleticism and Mike is superior, but Kobe clearly trumps Magic and Larry in that category. Out of respect to a career not yet completed though, I’ll put him 6th (and I’m not including Wilt):

    Mike
    Magic
    Kareem
    Bird
    Oscar
    Kobe

  • ctkennedy

    in my era of basketball from 90 to now he is number six
    1.jordan six in a row when he played all the mvps should of won every mvp of the 90s in which he played
    2.shaq changed the rules shot higher fg percentage than free throw and still avg 30 he kept eden campbell dale davis and others jobs after they was more than done
    3.duncan his team title contenters every year he has played the only reason shaq didnt make the finals 10straight yrs
    4.olaguwon-the best low post scorer i ever seen and got two rings
    5.garnett-the only superstar to stay loyal to losers and kept them in the playoffs every year no matter who the roster was if u dont think its not hard ask bosh al jefferson brook lopez david lee its not that easy kobe cried on draft night not to play for the hornets and cried tryin to get his way out of la after shaq left garnett went to war for a decade without throwin nobody under the bus and he the most talented 7footer in nba history he caused the first lockout lol

  • leeroy

    People saying that Kobe is better than Bird is just about the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard (topped only by “Kobe will be the GOAT by the time he retires”). Based on a variety of reasons why (the climate of basketball at the time, a not quite so diluted league, outright accomplishments, and sheer physical freakness combined with the most competitive drive EVER) it’s not exaggeration to say that Jordan will never be topped. Good lord people, go read The Book of Basketball.

  • Name (required)

    Kobe’s the best in the NBA right now.
    Probably like 12th all time when he finishes. I just think in his early career he was abit of a bitch, tried to do too much and cost his team games.
    He needed those few years playing with Smush Parker and Kwame Brown so he could finally learn to appreciate when he got good teammates.

    also Duncan and Shaq will be above Kobe in the all time lists when all their careers are over, Bigs are less glamourous, and score less, but those are the guys that win all the rings.

  • QQ

    @ 25:

    That’s why the 2005 MVP was a travesty. Kobe owned that award. It was his season. 81 fucking points. Why he didn’t won is a travesty. As you mentioned, KWAME FUCKING BROWN. And yet, they made the playoffs. That’s why I laugh when people say Wade and Chris Paul (in early January, when NO was in a mini streak) deserves to be MVP. If yall gonna give it tho those cats, let’s all fucking go back to 2005 and give Kobe the MVP. It’s HIS award.

  • LakeShow84

    Kobe Bean Bryant is the GREATEST SCORER OF ALL TIME.. a guard with no REAL physical advantages dropping Wilt “avatar” Chamberlin #’s?? Yeah so you can mark that down off top..

    Then there is the multiple ALLDefensive first teams..

    Really his resume only compares to a few.. and really his overall resume only compares to ONE.. So best believe hes gunning for that #1 spot.. say what u want but Kobes swag/stats/drive is directly reminiscent of MJ..

    His trouble has always been ego and controlling his competetive nature but if he wins TWO more chips hes top 5 eeeassssiilllyyy.. he could also retire RIGHT NOW and be top 10.. nasty cuz hes barely into his prime..

    If he gets us 3-4 more chips hes the greatest of all time no matter who likes it..

    Lets say he wins 3 more..

    Thats SEVEN championships
    NINE Finals appearances
    Top 3 in EVERY SCORING category damn near and all the other accolades you could want..

    And the funniest thing?? All because of the politics in basketball nowadays he might only have ONE MVP to show for all that..

  • T

    Interesting comments from everyone. Being a bit old school here at this site, I have been fortunate enough to witness Magic, Bird, Jordan, and Kobe in their prime. While Kobe is my favorite player nowadays, he still has a ton of work before he cracks the top five of all time. In my opinion the league is very watered down compared to when Jordan played. The young bucks who think that the league is superior today than it was in the late 80′s and 90′s ought to youtube the 88 all star game. The talent on the court is far superior than what we are witnessing today. Don’t get me wrong, not physically, but basketball skill wise. I agree with those that talk about the hand check rules and such. The league was tougher back than. Every team in the league had shooters, players who could get theirs by hitting the mid range jumper. That beautiful aspect of the game is sorely missing today. There are very few players who can truly shoot anymore. Despite the current change in the hand check rules, shooting percentages are lower nowadays compared to fifteen years ago. I don’t know but it is fun to have this barbershop like conversation. It is good that some of us disagree as well, it would be boring if we all felt the same.

  • Jayo

    I have Kobe in the top 15-20. He can’t be better than legendary players like Bird, Magic, Oscar, Wilt, Kareem, etc. For one thing the great players of the from the 80s & before built the league. Kobe comes in riding off what they built. Secondly b/c of the money & science, todays player are able to play at their peak longer. The top 10 best players ever are guys EVERYBODY knows were great purely dominant. In any order: DR. J, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Bird, MJ, West, Oscar, Shaq. Kobe is in that next tier of stars w/ Hakeem, Barkley, Nique, Malone, Zeke, & guys like that.
    For those who count his rings. Hell, Horry has more rings. Kobe is a superstar no doubt, but he’s not a transcendent player. Remember Shaq was the man on those championsip teams. After that Kobe was crying to be traded. You don’t hear that from an all-time top 10 guy, they’re gonna win no matter what. Hell, the Spurs have had a continual cycle of players around Duncan & you’ve never heard him ask to be traded.

  • Kevin

    Kobe Bean Bryant., a controversial enigma that will forever be the center of barbershop arguments and debates on where he stands in the NBA history books. Much like everything else in life, we take everything in the present for granted. After Kobe is done lacing his shoes up, we’ll run the vintage footage of him coming up big in the Finals when Shaq fouled out, his 81 point performance, and his multiple game winners through out his career. We’ll then come to truly appreciate his greatness. His game has evolved from being freakishly athletic to becoming one, if not, the most fundamentally sound player in the league. Love him or hate him, you can’t keep Kobe out of the top 10 players of all time easily at this point. Let’s remember, MJ won his first ‘chip when he was 28, Kobe won his when he was 22. Kobe is now 32. When it’s all said and done, Kobe will easily be in the top 5 of all time great players to ever grace the hardwood.

  • Claw

    @Lakeshow – Lets say he wins 3 more? You smoking some of that Laker weed?

    Gets 9 chips and greatest of all time? Bill Russell won 11 if you are going by chips, plus people saying he won when there was only 8 teams why not take all the teams and consolidate the league in half, what does that do? Teams wouldn’t be watered down and you would have 2 All Stars on every team, only the best would be playing. That’s what is was like back in the day.

  • cesar

    I think you gotta wait until he retires so you can compare his ENTIRE career against the greats. [2]

  • karizmatic

    @ QQ

    I think I’d have to put Kobe ahead of Jerry West, Elgin Baylor and Dr. J at this point…well maybe not Baylor, but at least West and Dr. J.

  • Tom

    Not even the best Laker of 2010, let alone all time. Best clutch scorer in the league today, and possibly all time. There’s more to basketball than scoring, though.

  • Jeffco

    *Maybe I should have put, “he’s up there with the greats” or something like that.
    I kinda did go a little overboard with my statement.

  • karizmatic

    @ Lakeshow

    Come on man…again…is there something goin on here I don’t know about? Are you guys in touch with reality? There is no way you can do what Kobe does and not have physical advantages. Sports is all about physical advantages. Jesus Christ! It’s not like he’s Larry Bird or something, Kobe is one of the fastest, strongest, most athletic individuals ever to play the game of basketball. And please take another look at his stats and compare them with Jordan’s before you start making reckless comments. Yeah their swag and drive might be similar, but Jordan’s stats blow Kobe’s out of the water. That’s just for the record.

  • Leroy Shonuff

    @FallODaLdr…
    thats the dumbest thing i’ve read in a while. The greatest ever…naw!!! Nobody is scared of Kobe. Dwayne, Melo, Bron, Roy, Duncan and many others aren’t scared of Kobe. Jordan Peers was. He ripped hearts out. In Jordan day the Game was much more physcial, anf he dominated. In terms of defensive stoppers, their really isn’t any great stoppers today. Jordan went against the best and some of the best defensive teams ever and made them look silly. But if that aint enuff for you, kobe lost 2 finals while Jordan never lost. And Jordan played better teams. Kobe can be top ten not top five.

  • Kermit The Washington

    In my mind, Kobe’s on the short list of the greatest to ever play the game. Top 10. Now, we have this whole “he hasn’t accomplished this or that” argument, but think about this:

    Like Austin said, you’re not supposed to touch Wilt’s numbers. Kobe does it.

    They said he couldn’t win a chip without Shaq (which was stupid). Got it. Might get more.

    They said he couldn’t get an MVP. Would have gotten 2 or 3, but was blacklisted for a while so ended up with one. But still, he copped an MVP.

    Like LakeShow just said, the list of “things Kobe hasn’t done” somehow gets extended every time he erases an item off of it. He’s only recently started the second half of his career, and he’s already passing the numbers that the other legends didn’t hit until the END of their careers. Dude deserves to be in the same room of legends that everyone’s so quick to usher Lebron James into.

  • Jah

    Kobe Bryant = 2nd Greatest SG of All Time (…right now.)

  • Kermit The Washington

    @ Leroy Shonuff:

    First you said “kobe lost 2 finals while Jordan never lost. And Jordan played better teams”

    And then you said “Kobe can be top ten, not top five”.

    Because of JORDAN? That’s like, one person. Soooo you gotta at least have four others with a similar argument for those numbers to work.

  • Jo Jo

    I don’t know where Kobe is as far as All-time greatest, but in my lifetime which encompasses the careers of Bird and Magic, and the tail-end of Kareem and Dr. J’s careers, he’s top 10.
    1. Jordan
    2. Magic
    3. Dream
    4. Shaq
    5. Bird
    6. Moses
    7. Kareem
    8. Kobe
    9. Isiah
    10. Dr. J
    I didn’t get to see Wilt (but ANY man who scores 100 in a single game has to be in the greatest conversation, not to mention the 20,000 women) or Russell (10 ‘ships is 10 ‘ships) or West (Logo) or Mikan (respect) but there is a reason their names come up in these conversations.
    With that said, if he continues on the path he’s on he could get to the top 5, but remember the rules have been changed to help scorers now. Just imagine if Kobe was on his way to scoring that 81 against the Knicks of the 90′s, let alone the Bad Boys of the late 80′s, he wouldn’t have finished the game…

  • LakeShow84

    When he dropped 81 he wasnt neccessarily beasting ANYONE.. he dropped 81 with JUMPERS.. shit peoples.. watch the tape.. The string of 50′s (only since WILT) was done with JUMPERS.. he aint bogarding to the rim nowadays..

    @ Claw – Yeah but if Bryant wins all those chips he will have done as a WAY MORE BALANCED player than Russell.. Kobes offense is as good as Russells defense (DAMN RIGHT??) and Kobe is a great defender to boot.. and whatchu mean watered down?? WAY MORE COMPETETION AND ADVANCED DEFENSIVE STRATEGIES.. ZONE?? NEXT

    @ Kariz – nowadays Kobe just got coniditioning and dont tire out.. like i said hes still fast (which why he can never turn the corner ASTOUNDS me, blocking foul ANYONE?) but since EVERYONE is an athlete in the NBA he aint got no advantage besides good conditiong.. once again watch the string of 50′s.. we talking JUMPERS..

    You guys swear you could hit 50 after hitting 40 shooting J’s.. imagine how ur nerves would be firing realizing whats going on.. same with game winners.. ONE CHANCE ONE SHOT DONT MESS UP.. all that firing through your mind and u get ONE SECOND to get it up with 5 players geared to stop you..

    And to all the people saying the rules changed Kobe Bryant is the only superstar i witness being CONTSTANTLY bumped on the perimeter and is handchecked FREQUENTLY..

  • crimewave

    @Yoooo

    I agree with you…ultimately it will hurt Kobe’s legacy when it’s all said and done. Based on pure basketball credentials, I put Kobe on the cusp of top-5…which I think he’ll break once his career’s over

  • BiGShoTBoB

    I’d say #2 or 1A…

  • Celts Fan

    @Kermit – Kobe blackablled himself. You can’t carry yourself like that and win an MVP on a team that’s not a contender when a guy like Nash is taking a team of scrubs (plus Matrix) to elite status. Kobe should have only 1 MVP. Sorry, that’s just how it is.

    and Kobe doesn’t touch Wilt’s numbers. He came close ONCE. He’s never had elite scoring streaks like Wilt’s (over 100 straight games w/ 25+.)

    Let’s have some perspective here.

    BUT I will say, he has to be above Dr. J. The Dr’s in these conversations for his evolution of the game. On talent alone, Dr. J’s in the teens, Kobe’s top 10, and Kobe has more rings.

  • LakeShow84

    @ Leroy Shonuff

    Nobody is scared of Kobe??

    I mean are you serious?? Seriously?? i mean seriously?? u believe that or you believe that none SHOULD be scared??

    And with 5 seconds left on the clock all the players and THEY MAMAS afraid of Kobe..

  • jeremyLA24

    31 Jayo: You’re right, since the science, strategy, and skills of the game have been paved by past players and modern sport science, these players don’t deserve any recognition. Since the game just keeps getting faster and more efficient with these players like Kobe that peak earlier, higher, and longer than any player of the past, these guys shouldn’t be recognized because of the times. The only people that should be recognized are players that paved the way like Dr.J did for MJ. Oh yeah, I guess that would make Dr.J the number one of all time, since MJ had just followed the path with better sport science and everything. Oh wait what about Elgin Baylor? He paived the way for Dr.J! So, that makes him the greatest of all time. Got it! No sarcasm intended.

  • HeadkickerB

    I’m 39 years old. I’ve seen MJ, Magic, Bird, Olajawon, Shaq, Kobe, etc all play in their prime years. All are fantastic players which is why we like to compare athletes of different eras. Here’s my two cents. MJ terrified the league in an era where if a player made two drives to the basket he got sent to the ground hard. The league had enforcers. Compare Bill Laimbeer, Charles Oakley, Rick Mahorn, Barkley, Rodman, etc to modern day defensive specialists. You think Bruce Bowen is dirty? The old timers would have you picking up teeth. Mj learned to make layups by spinning in the air, draw contact with his back, and flipping the ball in. He made it and laughed at the defense. Kobe cries foul every shot he misses. In my opinion the stars of today are a little too accustomed to getting questionable calls and when they don’t they whine and get frustrated. Chris Paul is another prime example of this.

  • Celts Fan

    @Lakeshow – If you can’t understand that going from 22 teams to 30 over the course of 20 years means the league’s more watered down from a talent-per-team standpoint, then there’s just no point in talking w/ you about this.

  • RC

    No particular order.

    Jordan
    Shaq
    Bird
    Magic
    Duncan
    Kareem

    Right now I consider these players ahead of Kobe in the all time rankings of greatness. But Kobe by the end of his career might be in the top 5 or top 7. Right now I would say top 10 or even top 15

    Kobe is a very smart athlete, he is never reckless with his drives to the basket and most of the time scores from the perimeter with jump shots. Although he is starting to post up now he still uses finesse moves and rarely uses force to get in the paint. Also he doesnt try to guard bigger guards or even small forwards regularly. That avoids him from getting too banged up. So at his age he has a very healthy body to work with.

    Not to mention Lebron James is just getting started to work his way to the all time greats list. He might also end up in the top 10 or even top 5 who knows.

  • Celts Fan

    @Lakeshow again – you right though, anyone saying no one’s afraid of Kobe is in denial (or knows nothing about ball)

  • Kermit The Washington

    @ Celts fan:

    “and Kobe doesn’t touch Wilt’s numbers. He came close ONCE”

    Dude that’s exactly what I’m saying. You’re not supposed to come CLOSE TO 100 POINTS IN ANY GAME, no matter what. And Kobe does it. And now you’re saying “he didn’t come close enough and do it enough times”? That’s exactly my point. He takes something off the list and someone modifies it and puts it right back.

    Keep in mind that everything he’s done for the past 2 seasons has been with a broken finger on his SHOOTING HAND that would require surgery for anyone else. And then THIS year he breaks ANOTHER FINGER on the SAME HAND and drops 40+. I’m just saying.

  • Claw

    Different eras are hard to judge, No Hand Checking has made it possible for guys to put up huge numbers and get to the rim with players afraid to take out guys since they’ll be T’d up and fined. That crap wasn’t happening back in the day. Hell MJ had to get through the XMan and Oakley plain clotheslining him and Pippen, causing Pip to get migraines.

    There are too many teams, and too many guys starting that have no business to. Kobe is an assasin and can take over ball games and close out games but I can’t say he has always made everybody around him better. He still pisses me off for not passing to Pau or jacking up ill advised shots, but hell if that’s all I’m hating on he’s still one of the top 2 players in the L right now.

    Kobe does have a hurt finger, but I have more respect for Dejuan Blair playing WITHOUT 2 ACLs!

  • LakeShow84

    I understand how the perception that expanding the teams stretched out the talent..

    BUT

    Red Aurerbach got damn near ANY player he wanted (somehow?) and he was one of the premier coaches.. Like i said so much has changed since then but the MARQUEE franchises still have a lot of the talented players..

    Who is in Memphis, Charlotte?? whos the superstar in New Jersey?? Look at Boston, LA, Orlando, Cleveland.. All the MAJOR teams are loaded so it aint like no one can have a loaded squad..

    Ill admit you probably had more grittier wars but thats because everyone knew each other inside and out and coaching wasnt so expansive.. but in referring to Boston they still had LOADED squads going against other teams that ONLY had 1-3 superstars.. isnt that what kept Wilt from getting more chips?? yeah i think it was..

    Shit who played alongside Bill Russell again?? yeah..

  • Claw

    BTW – Bird played with a broken/jacked up pinky on his shooting hand he got playing baseball at ISU. He said he was never able to shoot as well after, his J could have been BETTER in the NBA and played a career not two season with it.

  • LakeShow84

    i think i misread something lol

  • http://twitter.com/PoppiGEE POPPI GEE

    When all things are taken into consideration I have to put Kobe as 2 to Jordan’s 1.

    In thinking of so many things like marketing, his ability in playing offense and defense, his mental aspect of the game, peer acceptance, ability to overcome obstacles off the court, championships, MVP’s, other accolades (81 points), game winners, leadership, maturing, the era in which he plays, feuds and rivals, and SO MUCH ELSE…I feel only Kobe can be argued as a top great (perhaps not the greatest) in them all with much evidence to back up the many areas that can be up for debate
    Sure other greats, Magic, Bird, Kareem and others can be argued as well but for one reason or another when compared to Kobe in the spectrum of it all, I feel as though they fall short in to many areas where Kobe shines greater.
    You can blame it on the era of commercialism or how ticky tack fouls are called now or what have you, yet when you bottom line it all, regardless of excuses, Kobe is already and iconic figure who is STILL at the top of the game.
    I guess it’s best said in saying that if suddenly history lost Jordan (who is the greatest ever in the total aspect of the game and things in relation to it) who could you put in his spot and still probably get the same results.
    Without a doubt Kobe would likely be able to produce the same history more so than any other player past or present and today instead of Air Jordans we would be rocking Air Kobes.
    To me he ranks #2.

  • LakeShow84

    Bottom line is Boston still had more talent than ANYONE back then so 8 teams or not resistance was futile.. thats why i say there is more competetion nowadays..

    Get matched up with the wrong team in the playoffs and its a wrap nowadays (see GS vs. Dallas)

    Boston had all the talent and they were familiar with ALL the teams they played since the league was smaller..

  • Ekstor

    For all those balking at the comparison between Kobe’s 81 pt game and Wilt’s 100 pt game, I recall someone at ESPN had some very good analysis on it. What I remember is this:

    * Back when Wilt hit 100, both teams were committing intentional fouls over the final minutes to help Wilt get to 100. Kobe had no such assistance and actually left the game before the final buzzer.

    * Wilt’s 100 was mostly off a series of free throws and close-to-the-rim baskets… as mentioned by someone else, Kobe’s shots were mostly jumpers… in general it’s much harder for perimeter players to get huge numbers than a dominant big man

    * Wilt needed at least 10-15 more shot ATTEMPTS to get his 100 (I think Wilt took over 60 shots whereas Kobe’s shot total was somewhere in the 40s)

    * Wilt played in a game that was much faster paced… they took many more shots and scored many more overall points

  • hooper5013

    Jordan Russel Wilt Bird Magic Oscar, Kareem, Kobe, rank them however you want as long as Jordan’s first. But Kobe Belongs in that class of super elite.

  • Ekstor

    To add to that, I think if you look at the top 4 or 5 scoring games in history, Kobe’s was the only one that came within a competitive setting. Wilt had teams committing intentional fouls to stop the clock and give Wilt a chance to reach 100. David Thompson had 70+ on the final game of the year in which he was reaching for the season’s scoring title (over Ice-man I believe) and David Robinson had 71 under similar circumstances if I’m not mistaken.

  • sh!tfaced

    Where does FallODaLdr rank among the all-time IDIOTS?

    1. Curly
    2. Larry
    3. Moe
    4. FallODaLdr
    5. Forrest Gump

    Agree? What a dumbass. LOL. Definitely qualifies to play for the JayWalk All-Stars game in The Tonight Show.

  • Celts Fan

    @Lakeshow – Wilt kept Wilt from winning more titles. The Lakers had PLENTY of talent back then (read Simmons’ book for a breakdown. I was surprised myself to see it all laid out. I thought like you did, but apparently not.)

    and my point was that Kobe was still 19 points off ONE of Wilt’s records while still not touching any of his season records (which is a lot harder than one game against a horrendous team that, back in MJ’s days, would have been Bosh and no one else on that team woulda been in the NBA.)

  • Celts Fan

    @Hooper – I agree completely, you just have to add Duncan and Shaq to your list of the absolute upper crust. that’s your top 10. Argue the order all you want after 1. Good call.

  • shake&bake

    The only people who I am convinced might be better than Kobe are MJ, Wilt, and Magic.

  • Ian

    celts fan
    i like your list
    im a kobe hater but hes top 12 minimum maybe 8-12 range cant place him over td and shaq just yet. he leapfrogs shaq with another title this season.

    heckler
    1 more chip
    1 more mvp
    2 more scoring titles
    and you end that with a thats all he needs?? damn bro thats a lot of shit.

    karizmatic
    im not big on those records that end up in a loss jordan hit 63 yeah true while getting swept outta the playoffs.

    kobe better than bird???? huh one mvp and one ring as tha alpha dog vs back to back to back mvp and 3 chips as the man??

    leeroy
    thats the worst and most biased book ive ever read.

  • Ian

    lakeshow
    what type of comment was that?? “if” kobe wins 3 more?? who said the standard was 7 doesnt russell have 11.
    btw the lakers were loaded also when bill was winning all that shit. i personally say hes not top 5 hes top 10 but u cant say he won because he was with a team full of hofers and no one else came close to talent.

    my list
    wilt
    magic
    jordan
    jabbar
    td
    bird
    oscar
    west
    shaq
    kobe

  • Ian

    ups kobe is 11th
    russell is 6th on my list slide everyone down

  • Kermit The Washington

    @ Celts Fan:

    That streak of 50-60-50-50 (or something like that, I can’t remember the exact numbers) was another instance of Kobe approaching Wilt. By which I mean that he’s doing things that are “second only to Wilt”, which is crazy because Wilt’s numbers are so other-worldly.

  • Leroy Shonuff

    @ Kermit…
    I was responding to that one person about Jordan. But in terms of the other four players, it’s: Hakeem, Duncan, Magic,Bird. They round out the top five.

    In terms of teams…lets see… the cavs of the early 90′s…better than people remember and Jordan ruined them. Rememberthey was loaded, larry nance, mark price, brad daughtery…the knicks, blazers, suns, magic, jazz, heat, sonics, pacers, and soo on…Jordan peers said he is the greatest ever. Kobe peers dont utter such things bout him

  • Ian

    leroy
    mj might be the greatest ever but i think its the other way around they didnt have that great comp. the jazz??? really?? made the finals because all the other western teams (portland , spurs , seattle , suns , houston) got old or were injured plagued. the cavs injuries again. hell i can even say he didnt start winning till the pistons , celts and lakers got old. the knicks with patrick as the man mehhh. only time the jordan teams were challenged is when they faced a dominant big or at least good. smits with the pacers series went 7 orlando with shaq 1-1 they played in 95 and 96. again no complains with him being the goat but he also had some luck that his best years came in the 90s not 80s.

    thinking about shaq now i think have to put kobe over him how many times has shaq been sweept outta the playoffs i think its like 7 times damn.

  • Guitar Hero

    I’d say top 10, and he still has some quality years left, leading a title contender.

    And where does this leave Tim Duncan? I mean, people easily forget his AWESOMENESS. Is he a top 10 player? Top 15 easily, right?

  • NTstateOFmind

    Im sick of people belittling Jordan’s accomplishments because of so-called “weaker” competition. Plain and simple, its almost impossible to compare eras.

    Yes, this generation’s players are athletically superior over previous ones, but at the same time you can argue that the rules of today’s game drastically favor the guards (from hand-checking to how easily officials hand out flagarants and suspensions from good ol fashion hard fouls).

    Basically, Im trying to say we should be thinking of players on how they dominated THEIR era. How superior they were compared to the norm of THEIR generation. Jordan was a freak of nature in his generation, whereas ‘Bron is now. You can’t compare apples to oranges.

    Onto Kobe, he’s definitely going to be considered top 10 of all time now, and when he eventually retires. When looking back at the last decade and this, he is hands-down the most prolific and clutch scorer I’ve seen in years. His accomplishments alone, in one of the league’s most adored/hated (popular) franchises, garners top 10 talk.

    The reason I don’t see him top 5, is because 10-20 years from now, when someone asks me about basketball in the 2000-2010 decade, the first thing I’ll recollect was Shaq’s dominance (those Lakers chips) and the Spurs dynasty. Then when asked about 2010-2020, Im going to remember how the Lebron, Melo, Wade, and Bosh draft class will go down as the greatest draft class in history (maybe, hahah). Unless Kobe wins several chips before its all said and done he’ll never be unanimously considered top 5. At the end of the day, we as sports fans barely remember the regular winners that remain in the shadow of the greater winners.

  • NTstateOFmind

    ^ not to say I won’t remember Kobe, but I’d FIRST think of all those other moments in those eras

  • JAY

    @FallODaLdr

    Anybody who thinks the 80s/90s era of basketball was weak is either a) too young, or b) completely stupid. No disrespect. The large majority of players back then played at least 3yrs in college learning the game and honing their skills. Therefore the quality of basketball was better in the NBA. I’m not talking about athleticism… i’m talking about good, heady basketball.
    If the 80s/90s era was weak, look at the original Dream Team and put them up against this generation’s Redeem Team”. Talent/skill/knowledge-wise, the Dream Team is hands down waaaaay better than the “Redeem Team”. FallODaLdr, you MUST be a kid… by “kid” i mean 21 or younger. I refuse to believe anybody is THAT stupid. You should have your basketball card revoked.

  • potatoe

    kobe just imitated jordan, practically every move. mj revolutionized the game, even if he wins 2-3 championships more, he could never surpass that.

    and you say in the jordan era, there was no D on him? the pistons broke him, you don’t see those kind of defense now, i remember raja bell clotheslining kobe though lol plus jordan only had pip, kobe got shaq, odom and gasol.

    he could be number 2.

  • ab_40

    24th or lower. and don’t give me career stats he’s on the decline from next year to 2017 where he’ll call it quits or accepts a lesser role which is impossible.

    And this is about careers. You’ll get the same with lebron after he wins one or maybe two championships which is a long shot. There hasn’t been a back to back champ since the 02 Lakers and their best player was shaq. Kobe wasn’t 1b he was number 2. Even in 04 that’s why they lost the chip.

    Great teams make great players look even better LA management has done a great job. But when we put all the stats together and compare one another Kobe was the best in the L for maybe one or two years on an individual level. And maybe never based on pure stats. He’s a baller but he’s lost two finals. He doesn’t exuberate greatness like some of his peers do. He was cocky, he’s worked to back his cockyness up and he’s somewhere in the 20s on the all time greatest list. This is my humble opinion. this is how I think. Just to make a point there is no is or isn’t we all express our opinions. because you know there is no REAL list.

  • Claw

    @Lakeshow – Kobe’s D is equivalent to Russell’s? That Laker weed has got to be some REALLY good shit.

    @Ekstor – Kobe’s 81 came in a competitive setting? It was against the Raps and they didn’t even double him. Your reason for Wilt’s numbers is they fouled him? Wilt sucked at the line and was the reason you have to stay behind the FT line until the ball hits the rim because he used to jump from the FT line and practically would dunk it to hit his FTs, they had to change the rules. Wilt would get double and triple teamed, there was no illegal D. Can’t even believe you are trying to say Kobe’s was “harder” to get.

    Go smoke a J with Lakeshow

  • hicks

    I don’t think Russell necessarily belongs in the top 10. Sure, he won a crapload of rings, but his career shooting percentage was FORTY-FOUR PERCENT. He was supposed to be athletic like a gazelle, dominating physically, and so on, but he couldn’t convert half his shots? And yes, he was primarily a defensive player, but still. 44 percent.

    For the record, after reading Simmons’ book, I’m not so sure Wilt belongs in the top 10 either–he played in a competitive league like he was a member of the Globetrotters. His numbers are unearthly, and he was talented like no one we’ve ever seen, but Simmons certainly paints him as someone more concerned with his stats than actually winning, and I tend to agree.

    As far as Kobe’s ranking, he’s no lower than #8 now, and if he can play 3 more high quality years, and probably 3 lower-quality years beyond that, you’d be hard-pressed to keep him out of the top 5.

    It’s not that “he’s better than Jordan” or “as many rings as…”, it’s the level of sustained excellence that Kobe (and the other greats) play at for many years that make them all-timers. It’s easy to be good for 2-3 seasons before adverse circumstances (injuries/drugs/trades/apathy/bad luck) drag you down, it’s incredibly hard to be that good for that long. That’s why LeBron isn’t in this conversation…yet. He’s an amazing player, freakishly talented, but we don’t know how his story ends yet. Kobe’s story is 70% written, we can start to project where it will go.

    And far far too many of you above have not mentioned Elgin Baylor. For shame.

  • rell

    1. Jordan
    2. Magic
    3. Russell
    4. Wilt
    5. Bird
    6. Kareem
    7. Oscar
    8. Shaq
    9. The Logo
    10.Tim Duncan
    11. Kobe

    I think Kobe will have to win at least 2 more titles to be considered in the top 5. It is going to be hard to knock Bird out the top 5 because he did win 3 MVP trophy in a role.

    I can’t see anyone in this current set of players taking the #1 spot from MJ. People want to dog MJ for his last couple of season in the league, but he was putting up 20 ppg in his final season at the age of 40!!!

  • rell

    @Lakeshow

    Why are you acting like the Lakers didn’t have any talent during the Celtics run? Just look at the Lakers roster from 61-69. Your squad had 2 30+ scores in Baylor and West and a double/double player in Rudy LaRusso. The Celtics had talent but don’t act like the other teams didn’t have it also. The only difference is Boston had Russell and everyone else didn’t.

  • Claw

    @ Hicks – Looking at FG%? That is why he’s not top 10? How about AVERAGING over 20 boards.

    WTF, That Ferrari is nice, but what about those cup holders.

    Don’t like all the talk about chips either, or we would be discussing Horry as a top 20 of all time and dissing Karl Malone, Barkley, and Stockton.

  • wifey

    Kobe’s the greatest of MY generation and, in my opinion, is 7th all time right now.

  • K Dizzle

    LMAO @ “Rudy LaRusso” bein a force helpin Logo and EB against Cousy, Russell, Havlicek, KC and Sam Jones, Lovellette, Heinsohn, Thompson, Don Nelson and his lucky ass-bounce off the rim and in-shot.
    Until we got Wilt and got 33 straight, the advantage was severely Boston’s…

    As for Kobe, he’s the 2nd best 2guard ever. Top 10? Maybe.
    I’m ok with 5 Lakers on the top ten list. When Kobe’s done, he’ll be the sixth. Put that in your pipe and breathe…

  • http://twitter.com/therealknowbody Gabriel Brogden

    There’s maybe a dozen all-time greats in front of him.
    Meaning, there’s arguably 12 who would argue that Kobe is not “all-time-greater” than them.

    With the career that he’s having and the future milestones, wow. He’s just feeding that resume some good ol’ HGH.

    When you talk about Greats, you talk about Great teams and Great times for certain people, certain eras, certain fragments of our culture we bottle up in yesteryear.

    Kobe hasn’t transcended THAT level yet.

    Kobe is an alltime great talent who’ll sit somewhere on Olympus but whether it’s next to Jordan or across from Magic is yet to be determined.

  • Drewskeelove

    Top 3, honestly.

    If you had to start a franchise, who would you rather build around, Bird or Kobe? I’ll take the one who is a better scorer, defender, athlete, etc.

    I could make a valid arguement he’s the best ever, but I know that he could win 10 more rings in a row while avg 50 ppt and some of you still wouldn’t give him credit.

    Other than Jordan and magic, no one is better, and they aren’t clearly better. If Kobe gets 6, he’s goat.

  • jzsmoove

    Among the all-time greats, there is no denying he should sit among them. where he sits on the list is not even an argument. Kobe should be at the bottom of the list holding up every else’s jockstrap and making sure it stays there. NUFF SAID.

  • michael

    kobe is gonna be the best to ever play…he will finish 2 or 3 in scoring all time with a chance he could finish 1st… he easily get 2 more championships with the next 6 years he can still play at a great level… i dont care what anyone thinks hes gonna be the best… you can see it when you watch him play… and nobody works harder to be the best then him… if you didnt notice kobe gets what he wants…and he wants to be the best.

  • S-SiN

    man, sometimes u gotta take a clear look. this perspective is helpful in so many ways.. so many ways Kob effin that ol timer list. cmon now.. it shouldn’t even be mentioned like that. sam jones, russel, bob cousy, all them paved the way. okay we get it. can they check 24? or could they? or COULD THEY? they talk about tough, right? missing teeth and all (red, issell) they had to switch trains and shit.. does it make them better ball players? times were different, but.. if they saw Kobe back then.. to them it woulda been like landing a man on the moon b4 69, and we woulda had ourselves a set of totally different rules.. AND he’s not done yet..

  • FallODaLdr

    Man, I posted this morning and got flamed pretty bad. But a bunch of you agree with me too, so thats cool. Anyway, the only thing I want to clear up is, the League may have been rougher in the 80′s and 90′s but defenses were not nearly as complicated as they are now. BTW for you “youngsters”, Jordan played in an era where illegal defeses weren’t allowed. (yes i know kobe played a few years during that too). You weren’t allowed to double team players unless they had the ball. You had to be within an arms reacher of another player if Jordan didn’t have the ball. When he did get it (usually in the post later on) only THEN the second defender could come over, giving Jordan plenty of time to read and react, either passing or scoring. Thats a huge advantage over Kobe getting doubled and tripled all over the court. There have been times Kobe gets doubled as soon as he cross half court. Also, don’t forget about zones nowdays used to clog the lane, forcing jump shots. That kills shooting %

    @ Boston fans…. Kobe is better than Bird. Name one thing Bird does that was/is better than Kobe (besides ROY). Keep the hate comming Boston fans. Keep reading Bill Simmons horrible book.

    Last thing, why isn’t Kareem considered the GOAT? 6 championships, 6 MVPS, 3 NCAA championships, 3 Highschool Championships, NBA All-time leading scorer. He holds the NBA record for MOST: games played, FGM, FGA, mins, All-Star selections (19)…

    Let the hate continue…

  • QQ

    @ 88:

    IMO, Kobe, in fact, HAS already transcended that level.

    Ask any NBA fan bout the 81 point (even a hater): “Damn. It’s possible that no one in our lifetime will ever come close to scoring that much.”

    My friend, what Kobe did is already transcendent. The fact that we’re talking bout him in the top 10 all time where he still has 4-5 years left in his tank PROVES that.

  • sh!tfaced

    “Name one thing Bird does that was/is better than Kobe (besides ROY).”

    Win THREE straight regular season MVPs.

    Get. The. Fuck. Outta. Here.

  • hansosword

    JORDAN
    WILT
    KAREEM
    MAGIC
    RUSSEL

  • Royal

    This is a difficult question because it depends on the era you were born in for example my father is 38 so he was watching mj,Larry ,magic and others ,but me at 18 have grown up in a era with Kobe ,Shaq , and Tim Duncan.So in my opinion Kobe Bryant is without a doubt a top ten player in history ,but in my dads eyes ……not so much

  • johnsacrimoni

    @hicks
    I’m a Simmons fan too but realize the man is 40. So take what he says about Wilt and Russell with a grain of salt.
    As far as Kobe goes, I’d say borderline top 10
    1. MJ
    2. The other MJ
    3. Kareem
    4. Bird
    5. Wilt
    6. TD
    7. Shaq
    8. Oscar
    9. Kobe
    10. Russell
    Hon. Hakeem, Moses, Logo, Baylor, Dr J

  • Claw

    I just had some Dr. Pepper come out my nose from laughing at @89 and shitfaced response.

    You have to be only 18 to make a statement like that. Kobe only in the last couple of years has started to get it.

    Anybody ever see Bird tank it in the playoffs like Kobe did against the Suns? When he refused to shoot because he was getting lit up by the press for forcing shots and just laid down. Kobe has moved pass that but don’t forget what he was like just 3 years ago and right after Shaq left.

  • scott

    We tend to forget that he isn’t a very efficient scoer, and never has been. He’s not even a career 47 percent shooter, and laid an egg in the 08 and 04 finals.

    Kobe great talent, but is a head case, has 4 titles, would have 6 if he listened to shaq.

    Why Kobe ain’t top 15 even, won’t even be the 3rd best player of his era.

    Duncan is ahead of Kobe and ALWAYS WILL BE WON 4 TITLES AS THE LEADING MAN, Shaq as well. It was really 80/20 Shaq those titles, everyone forgets it was all shaq almost. 3. LeBron will move ahead of Kobe in a few years, much better player. Lastly look who Kobe beat in the finals last year. The magic were mediocre, and happy to be there. Kobe tier 2 talent, inefficient scoreer, not pantheon worthy.

  • b

    even if he gets more rings than jordan he won’t be better than him, as he lost already 2 finals series with arguably a better supporting cast than jordan had. jordan never lost a finals series EVER! scoring champ for 7 seasons straight, 6 finals mvps, 5 reg season mvps… he’ll finish top 10, but not top 5. he’s not even close to jordan okay a little close if he gets equal or more.

  • Jerry K.

    @scott

    You an idiot. Let me see Shaq win those title with Andre Iguodula (a good player, but in no way kobe) type player on his team instead of a d-wade or kobe….No way he gets his 4 rings…Just look at what he did in orlando..Laid an egg…And duncan really? Kobe and Tim have the same amount of rings, but kobe also has the greater accomplishments in terms of stats..The only possible credible thing you said was that Lebron will move ahead of kobe, which in this rate , looks like a real possibilty…But first he needs to win 2 rings before we can talk about that…

  • QQ

    @ scott:

    Damn. People always say Shaw won the titles. Flashback: Let’s say Shaq didn’t have one of the best shooting guards at the time by his side. Do they win? Ummm. No. They won’t. The three peat didn’t happen because of Shaq. It happened because of Shaq and Kobe.

    PS: People forget about the simple fact that Kobe was 2nd team All NBA, 2nd team All NBA and 1st team All-NBA during the three peat. DAMMIT. It’s not like that he was just some role player in Shaq’s Laker World. He’s essentially the BEST SG in the L during those years. And people say it’s Shaq who won it alone? DAAAAAMNN.

  • sh!tfaced

    Except for tennis and masturbating, nobody wins it alone…

  • got beef?

    kobe bean bryant, right now, isnt a top 5 player, if he retired today he wouldnt even be better than shaq, and yall know that

  • old guy

    @101 kobe had a better supporting cast than jordan?

    jordan had one of the best players/perimeter defender in pippen, one of the best shooters in kerr, one of the best rebounder in rodman, and one heck of a sixth man in kukoc

  • spk2629

    @ Yoooo:
    Wow, loved the way you put it down on ‘em! I feel that Kobe gets one of the worst reps in the league and it’s a shame. Ball-hog —- sure, but I would point out that most transcendent players are —- that’s why they are highlight reels, and clutch. Pass if you can get a better shot / higher %, but when the game is on the line, who do you want heaving one up @ the basket: MJ or Rodman? Kobe or Luke Wallace? The difference is that in these two examples one player is the consummate pass-first teammate, the other is the nucleus of their success. I love Bill Russell, great guy and talented but let’s not forget that his opposing players were munchkins on the court with a giant. I can go down to the rec center @ 6’5″ and drop 40 & grab 30 rebounds playing against 4th graders… C’mon, lets be both realistic and objective, and while we’re at it, lets give credit where credit is due.

  • Ian

    jerry k
    hahahahahahahahaha
    kobe over duncan
    hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha
    check you stats before blasting out crap 4 titles as the man vs kobes 1
    2 mvps vs kobes 1
    3 finals mvps vs kobes 1
    who holds the record for most allnbas and defensive allnba to start career in a row??? not kobe take a guess.

    you know duncan won a ring without another allstar in his team??? you know duncan shaq and kobe have been the best 3 players this decade and that duncan had to play kobe and shaq together?? the only way that matchup is fair is if duncan had orlando tmac on his team and he still won 4 times.

    so what stats other than shooting more does kobe have over duncan?? please dont post about things you dont know.

    fallo
    somepeople consider him the goat

  • Ian

    jerry
    you know that after shaq left the lakers kobe has one title to duncans 3

  • Jerry K.

    @IAN

    Your truly an idiot. I said greater accomplishments in terms of STATS, not in terms of MVPS or anything.And duncan didnt have no all-stars on his teams?? Really?? What do you consider David Robinson,Manu, and tony parker?? Yes, maybe they werent all-stars the year he won some of his rings, but they have been all-stars, which in turn makes them ALL-STARS!! IDIOT!!

  • David N.

    I understand some of us are not too fond of Kobe’s personality, but we must be objective when we talk about his abilities as a basketball player. I’ve seen many a NBA player and if you include the total package, skills and intangibles, he finishes second to Jordan. Granted, the way he behaves serves as a detriment to his popularity as a person and will be the reason he will never be the polarizing figure Michael Jordan was, but nonetheless, the game is played on the hardwood and if we look soley there than there is no question he belongs in the Top 5 if not second place (when his career is over).

  • Ian

    jerry
    hahahahahahaha u r the best dime poster since doug

    stats over accomplishments??? again what stats other than scoring??? rebounds ??? blocks ???
    fool stats over accomplishments for an alltime list

    so by your logic karl malone is the second greatest player ever and reggie miller is top ten

    and yes you damn idiot when duncan won in 03 he did without allstars hahahahahaha you count robinson in 03 as in 95 and parker the man who used to get benched in the 4th for speedy claxton. go away and dont ever post here god damn idiot.

  • Ian

    the sad part is that for a guard kobe can barely out assist duncan.

    you acted all surprise when someone said td over kobe and came up with stats to back your argument now how stupid is that kobes resume is not near duncans gtfoh. i guess allan iverson should be over duncan also since his scoring stats are awesome.

  • Ian

    i just read again your allstar logic it must be awesome to spend a couple of mns inside that head of yours by your logic duncan in 03 won with 3 allstars ?? because manu and tp would eventually become allstars and robinson was one lets thow out the admirals 8 and 8 avg that season right??
    im done with u fool

  • Drewskeelove

    You know what is really amazing?

    How hard people try to diminish Kobe’s greatness. I mean, some of you act like he had sex with your wife or something.

    I’m sorry that your own pathetic lives are terrible, but being passive aggressive is a very negative trait to possess.

    Anyway, when it is all said and done, Kobe will be No. 1.

  • sh!tfaced

    ^^^ Well, we may have had sex with Kobe’s wife or something but your clearly sucking Kobe’s cock… LOL

  • http://none Carlos

    If Kobe wins 2 more championships hes definitely in the top 5, he should have had at least 3 mvps by now if not for dumb voting. As in a personality, I was a Kobe hater, but you have to acknowlege the best player of our time, sorry Lebron you will the the best player one day but now is still Kobe’s time. He is the closest thing to Michael Jordan we have seen. He will pass down as the 2nd best shooting guard in the history of the NBA only behind Jordan. Kobe is ranked higher than Duncan because at the end of the line what is more important? Fundamentals or hitting another gamewinner and leaving with the W? Duncan is a great player and winner but he isn’t as clutch as Kobe. Kobe probably has the best clutch in NBA history

  • QQ

    ^ he actually said Kobe had sex with OUR wives, not the other way around.

  • sh!tfaced

    ^ Oh. LOL. My bad. Same shit ’cause it still doesn’t change the fact that he’s cocksucking on Kobe’s dick.

  • blue

    my list
    wilt ( avg 50 points and 25 reb in a season & led the league in assist one year
    jordan
    oscar
    magic ( even though neva won without kareem
    the dream( second best center)
    shaq( even though he played with the best gaurds in his era or swing men
    kobe (will move up after career over really the best since mj)
    bird ( great stats, great player but not better than the above)
    isiah (my best little man) scoring. passing and heart

  • Leoni

    Jordan did cocaine?

    His father was killed because his gamble debts?

    He cheated on his wife? So did tiger, and nobody except them both have something whith it. The guy is filthy rich, young, woman all over him…

    C’mom…hate the game not the player

  • JAY

    @Ekstor
    I don’t know who you are quoting… but most of your points are WRONG. Here are your quotes, followed by my rebuttals.

    You: [* Back when Wilt hit 100, both teams were committing intentional fouls over the final minutes to help Wilt get to 100. Kobe had no such assistance and actually left the game before the final buzzer.]

    - In another game, Wilt scored 60 points in a 12 minute span on his way to 90. And that wasn’t near the end of a game so nobody was “helping him get 100″.

    [* Wilt's 100 was mostly off a series of free throws and close-to-the-rim baskets... as mentioned by someone else, Kobe's shots were mostly jumpers... in general it's much harder for perimeter players to get huge numbers than a dominant big man]

    - Two questions for you… Who was the last dominant big man to lead the league in scoring? Now how many guards led the league in scoring over the last 50 years?

    [* Wilt needed at least 10-15 more shot ATTEMPTS to get his 100 (I think Wilt took over 60 shots whereas Kobe's shot total was somewhere in the 40s)]

    - Yeah, of course. He scored 100… that’s 19 pts more than Kobe. Hypothetically speaking, “Player A” scores 5, “Player B” scores 24. Who would you expect to take more shots??

    [* Wilt played in a game that was much faster paced... ]

    To my knowledge, the 24 second shot-clock was invented in the 70s to speed up the game. Not to slow it down.

  • JAY

    Shit, disregard my first point in the above post. That was a high school game. I’ll go sit in a corner now.

  • TR

    Eh. Take away handchecking and Jordan could probably have gotten 100 easy.

    Jordan
    Russell
    Magic
    Bird
    Kareem
    Wilt
    Oscar
    Duncan
    Dr J
    Moses
    … and Kobe is there somewhere with LBJ, Dirk, KG, Malone, West, Barkley, Pippen, Stockton, Baylor, Hakeem

  • http://king kingsto n

    wats up kobe u my favorite player in da nba nd i like ur team nd my bra like u

  • JAY

    @kingston…

    WHAT!?! You should check your keyboard. It looks like you have some sticky keys.

    Your bra likes kobe?

  • eazy yeezy

    i dont care if russell won 100 championships. he was a glorified, more decorated ben wallace and that is fact. he wasnt nearly as gifted as wilt- just luckier. put wilt on those celtics teams and watch what happens. no chance he was better than kareem, hakeem, robinson or even ewing. shaq in his prime would of engulfed and destroyed him. dwight’s pure athleticism would of been too much for him too.

    kobe is better than bill russell. as is everyone in that “untouchable 10″ list.

  • JAY

    @ Eazy…
    You must have have seen him play since you have such a strong opinion of him. Wilt, Oscar, Kareem, Jerry West, Cousy, all say he was a great player and they give reasons to why they consider him great… So he’s great.
    Or maybe they’re all wrong because you know better. They should apologize to you.

  • Vonislav Waferdenko

    To me, these are the players who, if you said they had better careers than Kobe, I wouldn’t argue with you:

    - MJ (duh)
    - Magic (duh)
    - Bird (duh)
    - Russell (11 rings… 11)
    - Kareem (achievements + winning)
    - Shaq (dominated the league when Kobe was already in his prime)
    - Duncan (consistency, winning as top dog)
    - Wilt (personal achievements too ridiculous)

    Let’s just look at three factors alone – 1. Career achievements, 2. Rings, 3. Skills and abilities. I cannot put West or Oscar ahead of Kobe because they neither won more than Kobe already has, nor do they surpass Kobe in terms of what they can do on the court. And Kobe has more rings, AND better individual achievements than Hakeem.

    So to me, Kobe is already, very legitimately, in the top 10

  • eazy yeezy

    look i’m not saying russell wasnt a great playe- its clear that he was. but the fact of the matter is that he spent a majority of his career playing in an 8 team league loaded with 6’4 white guys playing center who are the modern day equivalent of jason kapono. he was the very epitome of a big bully, playing on the ONLY talented team in the entire nba. the talent disparity was utterly ridiculous. the guy came into his ROOKIE year playing on a team featuring 6 future hall of famers! the only player from that era who was comparable to russell was wilt who torched him in their one-on-one matchups. wilt detractors like to point out that his team would often lose the game..but even jordan couldnt beat the bad boy pistons when he was playing them 1 on 5.
    when someone wins 11 championships while playing on the only talented team in a league that struggled to bring in 10 teams…yes- i have to call them overrated.
    (and at 6’9, 220–if you think russell is guarding shaq..youre dreaming)

  • http://yahoo james

    We as fans of the NBA will not appreciate Kobe until he’s no longer with us on the court. I believe it’s your College play that builds up your greatness and that’s how Magic, Michael, Bird, etc. became the best. We actually saw them get there. They did’nt just show up. These guy’s earned their status. Kobe will go down as one of the good players of the NBA. But a Bill Russel, or a Jerry West i don’t see that. He Can play but is he really a special player?

  • EN FUEGO

    @eazy
    WTF? Just another Laker fan giving his “expert” opinion. Wilt was 7″1′ 275 and was just as strong and fast like Shaq and without the fatass. You must be really that OLD to have such an opinion. Dumbass.

  • eazy yeezy

    shaq was 7’1 and 350 in his prime with the lakers. youre crazy if you think russell is shutting that down. shaq would dominate him and it wouldnt be close. russell is simply the product of an era- which he completely dominated and there isnt anything wrong with that. but i dont think he’s comparable to nba big men who have played over the last 25+ years. its the same reason george mikan (a laker!!) isnt in this conversation at all.

    and btw.. i’m 21 (not old), a bulls (not lakers) fan and am most certainly not a dumbass.

  • old school

    people under 50 shouldn’t even vote.
    kids think kobe and shaqs top whatever.
    top top players are dominant.
    they don’t get swept like their first five playoff series, or whatever it was w shaq. watch the tapes-wilt dominated the paint in the all star game even. on defense he was incredibly quick and long and strong and they didn’t keep track of blocked shots or it would be a joke. and kareem-sky hook, good. you kids don’t know, sorry.

    I feel sorry for you kids-the ol school guys were actually better. kareem and wilt the most unstoppable guys, shaqs not even close at the end of the game. same with kobe, one of the greatest scorers ever-as good as Jordan even, maybe, but not every game. Jordan and Bird were It everynight. Kobe has nites where he doesn’t have it.
    Kobe’s great but he’s not as great a force as people here think. If you think you’d rather have Kobe than Bird, you didn’t see Bird.

    Kobe’s not as good as Jordan or Magic or Bird. Or Wilt or Kareem or Bill Russell. Magic’s better than Oscar and much better than Kobe because he’s Magic, and could step in and dominate at center as a Rookie! I saw them play and against each other. It doesn’t matter what his final stats are. Kobe needs to dominate the playoffs, every 4th quarter this year to even get in the argument. And to this point Barkley, among others may have been better. He could score alot of points, but not like kobe. But he could guard Shaq if necesary, and same Bird could pull down 20 boards easily, was unbeliebably clutch on both ends. Kobe’s good though, amazing really and still has time to make a bigger imprint, if he were to dominate the next few years. He does seem to still be improving.

    BTW, where does this leave kevin durant?

  • michael anthony

    Kobe is definitely ranked among the very best like MJ and Magic johnson.

  • katie koo

    kobe is not better than bird not nearly not ever and not in your dreams

  • Adam

    Kobe’s 45% field goal percentage makes his status as top ten questionable. His status as a clutch performer is more mythical than actual since his shooting percentage on last second shots is relatively average (around 30%). He won 3 championships when Shaq was the MVP and leading the entire league in efficiency so he obtains Pippen status with those 3 titles. He won 1 title with Gasol but Gasol is no slouch either and statistically could give Kobe a run for best Laker on the team (Gasol was ranked 7th in efficiency when Kobe was 10th).
    Kobe is moving up the all-time scoring chart but has taken more shots to get there. Kobe is 12th all-time in field goals taken but 16th all-time in field goals made. All those extra shots have got to count against him.

    Comparing Bird and Bryant.
    Bird better shooter (fg, 3 pt, and free throw)
    Bird better rebounder
    Bird better passer
    Bird better defender (blocks, steals, defensive rebounds)

    Bryant has averaged more points per game but takes more shots (not always a good thing). Bird also played til he was 35 which lowered his career averages. Bryant’s scoring might decrease these next 4 years as well.

  • Adam

    1st Tier MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Russell
    2nd Tier Bird, Magic, Shaq
    3rd Tier Duncan, Oscar, Dr. J

    Kobe would be 4th Tier with the likes of Stockton, Malone, Robinson, Olajuwan, Barkley, Garnett, Nowitzki

    Kobe’s 1 MVP, 1 Finals MVP, and 2 scoring titles is hardly in the same ballpark as the top 3 tiers.