College, NBA / Jun 1, 2010 / 10:15 am

Carolina Blues: The NBA’s Undercover Underachiever Factory

Vince Carter, Dime #21

If Vince Carter is the 2010 Most Disappointing Player of the NBA playoffs, Rasheed Wallace took the crown during the regular season. But while Vince’s untimely no-show helped deny the Magic a return trip to the Finals, ‘Sheed is still in position to sneak out of his letdown of a season with a championship.

Vince and ‘Sheed share another legacy. They are two of the most talented players to ever come out of the University of North Carolina, and at the same time, could be Exhibit A and Exhibit B of a trend I’ve noticed: Over the last 20 years or so, the North Carolina NBA register looks more like a ballot for the Da Vinci Code All-Stars.

Big-time college programs get big-time high school recruits because they usually have a unique selling point. Kentucky offers the most insane fan base (for better or worse) and John Calipari‘s recent habit of cranking out NBA Rookies of the Year. Michigan State makes Final Four appearances like clockwork. UCLA has a gym full of national championship banners and the L.A. weather/women.

North Carolina has championships and tradition, but more importantly to today’s five-star recruit, UNC has a long list of NBA alumni at every position, headlined by The G.O.A.T. When 2010 All-American Harrison Barnes kept a recruiting diary for High School Hoop, he wrote this about his official visit to Chapel Hill:

After that I had lunch with Coach (Roy) Williams, and then I got to see the North Carolina museum. I’m not sure if you guys have heard about that, but it has all of the priceless North Carolina things such as Michael Jordan’s shoes, and a letter from Coach K to Michael Jordan saying that he hopes he does well at UNC. Then there’s a huge wall that lists all of the draft picks in North Carolina history. It was just huge. Who knows how big it was. The have a little room where they have a highlight film going and they had their national championship room. It was a cool experience to see all of the accomplishments that they have had over the years.

The UNC alumni game was that weekend, so before the game I got to get up a few shots with the players. We ate, and then we started the pregame festivities. I got to meet Michael Jordan and Dean Smith. That was a great experience because Michael was one of my favorite players ever to play the game.

Then we went out for the alumni game and the place was packed. Just to see guys like Vince Carter and Antawn Jamison playing with guys that just came out of college like Danny Green, Ty Lawson and Wayne Ellington … it was just cool to see how they interacted with each other.

After that we went to a team tailgate in the practice gym. There were a lot of parents of the players there and Coach Williams and we all ate together so it was real cool. A lot of the pro guys were there, too, and I got a chance to talk with them about their experiences. Like Vince Carter, you could tell he missed it and he really loves Carolina. He was real aggressive about why I should want to go to Carolina. I got to meet George Karl, Larry Brown … There were a lot of really important people from there that I got to meet.

Not many kids are going to say “No” after that presentation. Forget the weather, the women, the academics. The message is clear: Come to Carolina, and you’re going pro.

But then what? Over the last couple decades, UNC has produced a string of pros with a habit of falling short of expectations and/or not living up to their potential. Carolina fans rag on rival Duke for putting out failed NBA players, but once you get past earlier legends like Jordan and James Worthy, the Tar Heels don’t exactly have the best track record of NBA success, either. And trust me, I’m in no way a Duke fan. I’m just calling it like I see it:

* J.R. Reid — 5th pick, 1989 NBA Draft. High school All-American and national Player of the Year. Olympic bronze medalist at UNC. Eleven NBA seasons, 8.5 points, 5.0 rebounds per game, zero All-Star Games.

* Rick Fox — 24th pick, 1991. Thirteen NBA seasons, three championships, 9.6 ppg, 3.8 rpg, zero All-Star Games.

* Pete Chilcutt — 27th pick, 1991. HS All-American. Nine NBA seasons, one championship, 4.3 ppg, 3.3 rpg, zero All-Star Games.

* Hubert Davis — 20th pick, 1992. Twelve NBA seasons, 8.2 ppg, zero All-Star Games.

* George Lynch — 12th pick, 1993. HS All-American. NCAA national championship, UNC career steals leader. Twelve NBA seasons, 6.6 ppg, 5.0 rpg, zero All-Star Games.

* Eric Montross — 9th pick, 1994. HS All-American. Two-time NCAA All-American, national championship. Eight NBA seasons, 4.5 ppg, 4.4 rpg, zero All-Star Games.

Rasheed Wallace

* Jerry Stackhouse — 3rd pick, 1995. HS All-American. NCAA All-American. Fifteen NBA seasons, 18.0 ppg, two-time All-Star.

* Rasheed Wallace — 4th pick, 1995. HS All-American. NCAA All-American. Fifteen NBA seasons, one championship, 14.6 ppg, 6.7 rpg, four-time All-Star.

* Antawn Jamison — 4th pick, 1998. HS All-American. Two-time NCAA All-American, ACC and national Player of the Year. Twelve NBA seasons, 19.8 ppg, 8.1 rpg. Sixth Man of the Year, two-time All-Star.

* Vince Carter — 5th pick, 1998. HS All-American. NCAA All-American. Twelve NBA seasons, 22.9 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.9 apg, Rookie of the Year, two-time All-NBA, eight-time All-Star.

* Brendan Haywood — 20th pick, 2001. HS All-American. First triple-double in UNC history. Nine NBA seasons, 7.7 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 1.5 bpg, zero All-Star Games.

* Joe Forte — 21st pick, 2001. HS All-American. NCAA All-American. Two NBA seasons, 1.2 ppg, zero All-Star Games.

* Marvin Williams — 2nd pick, 2005. HS All-American. NCAA national championship. Five NBA seasons, 11.9 ppg, 5.4 rpg, zero All-Star Games.

* Ray Felton — 5th pick, 2005. HS All-American, national Player of the Year. NCAA All-American, national championship. Five NBA seasons, 13.3 ppg, 6.4 apg, zero All-Star Games.

* Sean May — 13th pick, 2005. HS All-American. NCAA All-American, Final Four MOP, national championship. Five NBA seasons, 6.9 ppg, 4.0 rpg, zero All-Star Games.

* Rashad McCants — 14th pick, 2005. HS All-American. NCAA All-American, national championship. Four NBA seasons, 10.0 ppg, zero All-Star Games.

* Brandan Wright — 9th pick, 2007. HS All-American. Three NBA seasons, 6.2 ppg, 3.3 rpg, zero All-Star Games.

* Tyler Hansbrough — 13th pick, 2009. HS All-American. Four-time NCAA All-American, ACC and national Player of the Year, national championship. One NBA season, 8.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg, zero All-Star Games.

* Ty Lawson — 18th pick, 2009. HS All-American. NCAA All-American, ACC Player of the Year, national championship. One NBA season, 8.3 ppg, 3.1 apg, zero All-Star Games.

* Wayne Ellington — 28th pick, 2009. HS All-American. NCAA national championship, Final Four MOP. One NBA season, 6.6 ppg, zero All-Star Games.

Don’t get me wrong, any man with 8-12 years of NBA paychecks on his resume is far from a bust or a failure. Really, anybody who’s got one game of NBA experience has achieved the dreams of thousands of men and is better than 90% of the basketball players in the world. But the facts are right there: Twenty first-round picks from North Carolina in the last 21 drafts, and only four of them reached an All-Star level in the League. And of those four, three of them (Vince, Rasheed, Antawn) have become infamous for underachieving given their amazing talent. Obviously it’s still early for the ’09 class, and relatively early for the ’05 group, but beyond maybe Felton and Lawson and a bigger maybe on Hansbrough or Ellington, I don’t see an All-Star there.

Does this mean top-level high schoolers should avoid UNC? Of course not. The education, networking possibilities, and chance for exposure can only be matched by a handful of schools.

Does this mean NBA Lottery teams should shy away from UNC forward Ed Davis in this year’s draft? Not necessarily. But the 6-9 sophomore comes into the League with a profile awfully similar to Brandan Wright and Marvin Williams; unproven underclassmen with more potential than anything else and a powerful brand name behind them. At the very least, the teams that drafted Wright and Williams would want that pick back if they could do it over again. Ed Davis is projected to go in the Top-10 this month, but if history is any indication, he could have a forgettable NBA career in front of him.

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  • Dre

    Thank you… King for doubting my post.

  • Dre

    BCTW, that is an ignorant statemtent, winning has nothing to do with whether someone is a bust as a player. You have players that are bench guys and they get championships. It has to do with productivity because if you are never put on a team with a proper supporting cast you will never win a championship. So are you saying Stockton, Malone, C. Barkley, Kevin Johnson, Reggie Miller and those guys are underacheivers… everything is like I said before. We chewed this article and spit it out.

  • King Cooper

    Good for you Dre, taking time to do all that research. But Kobe and Dwight still don’t count on your North Carolina NBA list.

  • Dre

    I never said they did, you questioned what I posted and all I did was prove you didn’t know what you were talking about. Admit it, you were wrong or is your ego too big. Don’t blurt out stuff out loud on paper or onthe computer until you know the facts.

  • Dre

    Just in case you forgot what you put.

    #19 — I fail to see how you “totally destroyed” any argument when the author wasn’t even using this as a comparison to Duke. Everybody knows Duke has put out guys who struggle as pros. The title says “Undercover” which to me hints at the fact that people don’t even realize UNC is not this NBA All-Star factory it’s been hyped up to be.

    #22 — I don’t know what you read but it was pretty well-known at the time that Kobe was either going to go to Duke or La Salle (where his Dad was coaching). Dwight didn’t even consider college for one second, so who knows where he would have went. I could see T-Mac maybe going to UNC since he went to high school at Mt Zion.

  • King Cooper

    Dre, you still didn’t do anything to disprove my first point.

  • Dre

    Yeah, I did because they did not give a criteria for underachieving. A lot of people on those list were average but when you start saying people that averaged 19 pts and up are underachievers it leads you to ask what is the criteria he is using. I mean really people who are averaging like 12 pts and up depending on the position and team… what is it that you want them to do. UNC has had stars on their team that have gone to the NBA and done well… real well. I mean Stackhouse’s career average is 18 pts and he played for 15 years. That means that in his old age his low numbers have been steadily knocking down his average. As far as the NBA is concerned he is old. I think no criteria was given for this. Hey left off Kenny Smith who had a good career and won championships. I think I killed his argument.

  • Dre

    Your point as well my friend.

  • King Cooper

    No, you really didn’t.

    “Here’s what totally destroys this argument. Duke players were none for not doing shit in the NBA. UNC players being average players in the NBA is far beyond a flop. Actually how many superstars can a league have? How many MJ’s can a school put out? If you put a bunch of average players in the NBA who spend multiple years in the league… how is that a flop or underacheiving.”

    You claim you “destroyed” a UNC-has-underachievers argument by (1) Using Duke’s pro track record, and (2) Questioning the criteria of what makes an underachiever. At best you brought up a good question of what exactly makes one underachieving, but the Duke part was just typical Tar Heel fan idiocy. And you can’t spell, so…

  • Dre

    I can’t spell… you spelled known… none… i’m sitting in a car typing what is your excuse. Hello pot to the kettle, you’re black…

    No it is a completely stupid statement to say schools putting out average NBA players is a flop. Stackhouse was at one point a Superstar and so was Vince, are they stars now? No! However to say that a school should put out a superstar every draft is stupid an unrealistic. It’s pretty obvious that, u and logic don’t live in the same house so…

  • Holladay

    This article is flawed because atleast the UNC players are good enough to be considered drafting. He talks about all the Final Fours Michigan State has been to. Who’s the last good player they put in the league Jason Richardson. Calipari’s been coaching for over 20 yrs he gives you two ROYs who probably would have went straight to the pros if it wasn’t for the age limit. What has any other players from those teams done in the pro’s. Hell what has UCLA done since Reggie Miller the O’Bannons are probably some of the biggest bust in NBA history it’s just nobody remembers them suiting up. You could still make up a team in the league with only Tar Heels and go more than 10 deep how many other schools can say that.

  • Dre

    Btw, I never used Duke’s record to say that UNC didn’t underachieve I said Duke underachieved and I seperately destroyed the article.

  • Dre

    Holladay, thank you… and let the church say amen.

  • Roman

    Damn, go easy on Sheed. He has a ring. Vince is here to excite the crowd. Like a side show. Not a big game player. He got out played by Reddick(Duke) for gods sake.

  • http://getyourishbusted.net Chicagorilla

    LMAO@ he got outplayed by reddick.

    Did Ray Allen and Paul Pierce not have their way with every guard/forward that was put in front of them? yes they did. That would suggest that every guard on ORL was terrible defensively. So your state of Reddick outplaying anyone is like saying
    “Well at least he’s the fastest kid in the special olympicss”…. only Dwight Howard can do any bragging about that series.

  • Justin

    The way Joe Forte turned out still makes me mad to this day.

  • http://kapatid7799@yahoo.com bucks fan

    nice areticle. in a players perspective UNC players are overated. besides guys like jordan, worthy, VC (which really disapointed me that he played horrible in the playoffs and i think he is in the down side of his carer and hope he gets traded outta orlando cuz the magic has a better chance of him not there), but UNC is only famous cuz the greatest player jordan went to school there.

    so why is it UNC still plays great during the regular seasons… its bcuz UNC program is great. the coaching staff does a wonderful job and getting the best out of its players. thats why i belive an average jo bball player can be a top10 draft pick in any nba draft if he plays for UNC.

    you see wht larry brown does to an averge nba team.. he takes them to the playoffs. larry brown can take any team and have avg players and get in the playoffs.

    thats why i think unc has a great program but overrated players.

  • uncguy

    Wow, expectations can run high. Or sometimes writers take a controversial stand that they really don’t believe in, just to generate hits – it’s not easy to tell which is happening here. Career NBA players portrayed as busts under the “underachiever” veil? I can only dream that Carolina continues to pump out underachievers of this caliber.

  • K Dizzle

    @ “Ed Cota is the 2nd all time assist man in college and couldn’t even get drafted! If that’s not underachieving I don’t know what is!”

    Don’t get what being dafted has to do with underachieving

    Point 2 = On what UCLA has done since Reggie Miller

    -Baron Davis
    -Matt Barnes
    -Kevin Love
    -Russell Westbrook
    -Darren Collison
    -Arron Afflalo
    -Earl Watson
    -Jason Kapono
    -Dan Gadzuric
    -Jrue Holiday
    -Luc Mbah a Moute
    -Trevor Ariza
    -Jordan Farmar

  • King Cooper

    #60 — My “excuse” is that I copied and pasted your own comment, moron. That’s why there was the misspelling. And here’s another of your posts I’m going to copy:

    “No it is a completely stupid statement to say schools putting out average NBA players is a flop. Stackhouse was at one point a Superstar and so was Vince, are they stars now? No! However to say that a school should put out a superstar every draft is stupid an unrealistic. It’s pretty obvious that, u and logic don’t live in the same house so…”

    First of all, who said UNC had to put out a superstar every year? Where did you read that in the article? Where did you read anywhere that UNC is a flop? It says UNC has a history over the last 20-some years or putting out underachievers, and you can’t admit it’s true. You keep going back to Vince and Stack, but funny you never mention JR Reid, Joe Forte, George Lynch and Rashad McCants and all the others written about in the article to prove your point about “average” players. Those dudes weren’t average, they were first-round draft pick busts.

  • Tony K

    1st, Joseph Forte we pro against the coaches advise that he wasn’t ready

    2nd, Brandon Wright was put in a position that he couldn’t turn down. He wasn’t even close to being ready for the NBA but when you throw MILLIONS at a kid that skinny, poor ft shooter, avg to poor offensive skills, you get what you ask for. His biggest asset coming out of UNC was his ability to block shots.

    3rd, Marvin Williams – How do you justify taking a guy that high when he is coming off the bench. Again, just like Wright, the NBA took a kid that was clearly not ready, rated him so high that it was impossible to turn them down.

    Now we have Ed Davis. Hopefully with his dad’s NBA pedigree he will have more success but at this point and looking at what he has done at UNC, I along with a ton of other fans don’t think he is ready. Hopefully with his father’s knowledge, contacts and NBA team and a solid commitment to the game, he will fair better than the above.

  • Dre

    Look Internet thug boy… talking crap behind the safety of your computer the article is stupid you are a complete idiot and I don’t get into the habit of arguing with fools. I don’t play tough up here, don’t need a computer to do so. If you want to be tough feel free to contact me at the_wb91@hotmail.com . I’m sure you won’t. I killed you and that stupid article. It’s obvious dude was bored when he wrote this.

  • Dre

    It is a stupid article because those are 4 people out of the tons of people who have gone to the league. I should break it down for this fool. The article implies by posting those guys along with people who averaged freaking 22+ pts game were some how not living up to some superstar standard. The article made the implication, not me. Had it listed people who only lasted a couple of years in the league and averaged only 3 pts or something it would be valid but since it didn’t it makes the argument invalid. Hell, UNC fans used to brag about being able to get anybody to the NBA because of the likes of the Pete Chilcutts and the Scott Williams. UNC is known for training players to be productive NBA talent does some fall through of course but it makes the article invalid on it’s face.

  • JAY

    Just to add something…
    In my opinion if a player signs a couple contracts AFTER their rookie contract, they are not a bust. The size of these contracts are, with some financial know-how, enough to start businesses and start an income outside of basketball. You know the saying, “It takes money to make money”. Most of the guys on that list are guys who have stuck in the league. Maybe they didn’t blow up as expected but blame the scouts for that, not the players being “busts”. The Kandi man was not good enough to be draft 1st… whoever decided to draft him is the bust. Same goes with Rafael Araujo and others who were taken before they should have been.

    I’m sure i’ll get attacked on this post….
    *ducking the hail storm*

  • CHI2SD

    The article you wrote could’ve been about a lot of teams. UCLA? Kansas? Arizona? A few made it big, a few were busts? Are you trying to tell us the best players in the NBA right now are out of HS or went to a second tier school so they could eat at the “all-you-can-shoot” buffet like Durant? We already know that. Who are you actually comparing UNC to (without violating NCAA standards) anyway? You named a lot of players getting paid right now to form your argument. Isn’t that the goal for any NBA player? 99% aren’t All-Stars, and 99% will never sniff a NBA Championship. You’re setting the bar pretty high and no one is reaching your “standard”.

  • mik

    Don’t think the author is saying Duke hasn’t underachieved NBA-wise, cause they most certainly have. I think he’s just saying that UNC hasn’t been all its cracked up to be, and I tend to agree.

    I don’t believe anything those players say about where they would have gone to school. Remember, Kobe has said many times in the past he would have gone to Duke as well as saying he would have gone to UNC, so he is just saying whatever. Lebron has said he would have gone to OSU, UNC, wanted to play for K in college, wanted to playf or Calipari, etc..so take it all with a grain of salt.

    Look, I get annoyed with Duke, but I respect what they o. The type of player they recruit while All Americans, Battier, Duhon, etc are not the type of player that succeeds in the NBA, so their relative lack of success in the pros is understandable and predictable. Heck, they won a national championship this past year with maybe 1 guy who deserves to be a first round NBA pick, the rest are second round to undrafted picks who will be lucky to 1 year NBA careers.

    Schools like UNC, UK now, Arizona, UConn, etc have always done much better job of recruiting athletes, guys with flair and play the NBA style of game. You can’t argue with the results. UConn has been fantastic at churning out NBA players. I think the author is under selling the careers of Stackhouse, Wallace, and Carter here. I hate VC, think he is the most overrated player ever, but at his peak he was a waaaay above average player, who doesn’t deserve to be a “Bust”.

    Now if the author had made the argument that POST Dean Smith, UNC has struggled, I could agree. Lawson and Hansbrough are still young, so they get passes for now, but you cant’ deny that guy like May, Felton, McCants, Marvin Williams, Brandan Wright, etc have underperformed. I don’t think this is a UNC thing (since it will remain one of the best programs in the world) more so than a Roy Williams thing. Roy wasn’t fantastic at putting out pros at Kansas (Paul Pierce aside), so it’s not really a surprise.

    I don’t see why Michigan State doesn’t get more attention. For a program as successful as they have been the last 10 years, they’ve been pretty horrible at producing pros too (Magic was a very long time ago and doesn’t count to Izzo). Jason richardson is a bit player and Zach Randolph is a 1 time all star. Tha’ts it for MSU’s pros.

  • Keith Hart

    “UNC has produced a string of pros with a habit of falling short of expectations and/or not living up to their potential.”

    One word for this article: fail.

    Exhibit A, B, C – Rick Fox, Pete Chicutt, Hubert Davis were all picked late in the 1st round (24th, 27th, 20th), thus they had low expectations. Yet they played a combined 34 years in the NBA (13, 9, 12) and won a combined 4 NBA Championships (3, 1, 0).

    That’s both exceeding expectations and living up to their potential.

    And regarding the success of the cream of the UNC crop since Jordan (Stack, Sheed, Twan, and Vince) not living up to their potential, let me ask this: if they were re-drafted, would they have gone any lower? I think not.

    I rest my case.

  • Dre

    mik… great post I only disagree with 2 things. I don’t think those players are lying. Why? What do they have to lie about? What does it benefit them? I lie generally has some sort of benefit at the end. Dwight’s last 2 schools were UNC and G. Tech he has always said that would be his school. Kobe never really out of his mouth said he would go to Duke, only that he liked coach K and everyone else took it and ran with it. These guys have no reason to lie, it does not benefit them at all whatsoever.

    Also Marvin Williams have not quite performed up to a #2 pick but he is still a starter and impact player on a playoff team. Me personally I would put an asterik by his name. Lol.

    All and all great post.

  • http://getyourishbusted.net Chicagorilla

    @Dre,

    Yeah Marvin shouldn’t have been drafted that high anyway. ATL is just dumb.

    @Keith Hart

    Great point on the “re-draft” statement and the fact that Fox, Chilcut and Davis were not expected to be stars.

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