College, NBA / Jun 1, 2010 / 10:15 am

Carolina Blues: The NBA’s Undercover Underachiever Factory

Vince Carter, Dime #21

If Vince Carter is the 2010 Most Disappointing Player of the NBA playoffs, Rasheed Wallace took the crown during the regular season. But while Vince’s untimely no-show helped deny the Magic a return trip to the Finals, ‘Sheed is still in position to sneak out of his letdown of a season with a championship.

Vince and ‘Sheed share another legacy. They are two of the most talented players to ever come out of the University of North Carolina, and at the same time, could be Exhibit A and Exhibit B of a trend I’ve noticed: Over the last 20 years or so, the North Carolina NBA register looks more like a ballot for the Da Vinci Code All-Stars.

Big-time college programs get big-time high school recruits because they usually have a unique selling point. Kentucky offers the most insane fan base (for better or worse) and John Calipari‘s recent habit of cranking out NBA Rookies of the Year. Michigan State makes Final Four appearances like clockwork. UCLA has a gym full of national championship banners and the L.A. weather/women.

North Carolina has championships and tradition, but more importantly to today’s five-star recruit, UNC has a long list of NBA alumni at every position, headlined by The G.O.A.T. When 2010 All-American Harrison Barnes kept a recruiting diary for High School Hoop, he wrote this about his official visit to Chapel Hill:

After that I had lunch with Coach (Roy) Williams, and then I got to see the North Carolina museum. I’m not sure if you guys have heard about that, but it has all of the priceless North Carolina things such as Michael Jordan‘s shoes, and a letter from Coach K to Michael Jordan saying that he hopes he does well at UNC. Then there’s a huge wall that lists all of the draft picks in North Carolina history. It was just huge. Who knows how big it was. The have a little room where they have a highlight film going and they had their national championship room. It was a cool experience to see all of the accomplishments that they have had over the years.

The UNC alumni game was that weekend, so before the game I got to get up a few shots with the players. We ate, and then we started the pregame festivities. I got to meet Michael Jordan and Dean Smith. That was a great experience because Michael was one of my favorite players ever to play the game.

Then we went out for the alumni game and the place was packed. Just to see guys like Vince Carter and Antawn Jamison playing with guys that just came out of college like Danny Green, Ty Lawson and Wayne Ellington … it was just cool to see how they interacted with each other.

After that we went to a team tailgate in the practice gym. There were a lot of parents of the players there and Coach Williams and we all ate together so it was real cool. A lot of the pro guys were there, too, and I got a chance to talk with them about their experiences. Like Vince Carter, you could tell he missed it and he really loves Carolina. He was real aggressive about why I should want to go to Carolina. I got to meet George Karl, Larry Brown … There were a lot of really important people from there that I got to meet.

Not many kids are going to say “No” after that presentation. Forget the weather, the women, the academics. The message is clear: Come to Carolina, and you’re going pro.

But then what? Over the last couple decades, UNC has produced a string of pros with a habit of falling short of expectations and/or not living up to their potential. Carolina fans rag on rival Duke for putting out failed NBA players, but once you get past earlier legends like Jordan and James Worthy, the Tar Heels don’t exactly have the best track record of NBA success, either. And trust me, I’m in no way a Duke fan. I’m just calling it like I see it:

* J.R. Reid — 5th pick, 1989 NBA Draft. High school All-American and national Player of the Year. Olympic bronze medalist at UNC. Eleven NBA seasons, 8.5 points, 5.0 rebounds per game, zero All-Star Games.

* Rick Fox — 24th pick, 1991. Thirteen NBA seasons, three championships, 9.6 ppg, 3.8 rpg, zero All-Star Games.

* Pete Chilcutt — 27th pick, 1991. HS All-American. Nine NBA seasons, one championship, 4.3 ppg, 3.3 rpg, zero All-Star Games.

* Hubert Davis — 20th pick, 1992. Twelve NBA seasons, 8.2 ppg, zero All-Star Games.

* George Lynch — 12th pick, 1993. HS All-American. NCAA national championship, UNC career steals leader. Twelve NBA seasons, 6.6 ppg, 5.0 rpg, zero All-Star Games.

* Eric Montross — 9th pick, 1994. HS All-American. Two-time NCAA All-American, national championship. Eight NBA seasons, 4.5 ppg, 4.4 rpg, zero All-Star Games.

Rasheed Wallace

* Jerry Stackhouse — 3rd pick, 1995. HS All-American. NCAA All-American. Fifteen NBA seasons, 18.0 ppg, two-time All-Star.

* Rasheed Wallace — 4th pick, 1995. HS All-American. NCAA All-American. Fifteen NBA seasons, one championship, 14.6 ppg, 6.7 rpg, four-time All-Star.

* Antawn Jamison — 4th pick, 1998. HS All-American. Two-time NCAA All-American, ACC and national Player of the Year. Twelve NBA seasons, 19.8 ppg, 8.1 rpg. Sixth Man of the Year, two-time All-Star.

* Vince Carter — 5th pick, 1998. HS All-American. NCAA All-American. Twelve NBA seasons, 22.9 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.9 apg, Rookie of the Year, two-time All-NBA, eight-time All-Star.

* Brendan Haywood — 20th pick, 2001. HS All-American. First triple-double in UNC history. Nine NBA seasons, 7.7 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 1.5 bpg, zero All-Star Games.

* Joe Forte — 21st pick, 2001. HS All-American. NCAA All-American. Two NBA seasons, 1.2 ppg, zero All-Star Games.

* Marvin Williams — 2nd pick, 2005. HS All-American. NCAA national championship. Five NBA seasons, 11.9 ppg, 5.4 rpg, zero All-Star Games.

* Ray Felton — 5th pick, 2005. HS All-American, national Player of the Year. NCAA All-American, national championship. Five NBA seasons, 13.3 ppg, 6.4 apg, zero All-Star Games.

* Sean May — 13th pick, 2005. HS All-American. NCAA All-American, Final Four MOP, national championship. Five NBA seasons, 6.9 ppg, 4.0 rpg, zero All-Star Games.

* Rashad McCants — 14th pick, 2005. HS All-American. NCAA All-American, national championship. Four NBA seasons, 10.0 ppg, zero All-Star Games.

* Brandan Wright — 9th pick, 2007. HS All-American. Three NBA seasons, 6.2 ppg, 3.3 rpg, zero All-Star Games.

* Tyler Hansbrough — 13th pick, 2009. HS All-American. Four-time NCAA All-American, ACC and national Player of the Year, national championship. One NBA season, 8.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg, zero All-Star Games.

* Ty Lawson — 18th pick, 2009. HS All-American. NCAA All-American, ACC Player of the Year, national championship. One NBA season, 8.3 ppg, 3.1 apg, zero All-Star Games.

* Wayne Ellington — 28th pick, 2009. HS All-American. NCAA national championship, Final Four MOP. One NBA season, 6.6 ppg, zero All-Star Games.

Don’t get me wrong, any man with 8-12 years of NBA paychecks on his resume is far from a bust or a failure. Really, anybody who’s got one game of NBA experience has achieved the dreams of thousands of men and is better than 90% of the basketball players in the world. But the facts are right there: Twenty first-round picks from North Carolina in the last 21 drafts, and only four of them reached an All-Star level in the League. And of those four, three of them (Vince, Rasheed, Antawn) have become infamous for underachieving given their amazing talent. Obviously it’s still early for the ’09 class, and relatively early for the ’05 group, but beyond maybe Felton and Lawson and a bigger maybe on Hansbrough or Ellington, I don’t see an All-Star there.

Does this mean top-level high schoolers should avoid UNC? Of course not. The education, networking possibilities, and chance for exposure can only be matched by a handful of schools.

Does this mean NBA Lottery teams should shy away from UNC forward Ed Davis in this year’s draft? Not necessarily. But the 6-9 sophomore comes into the League with a profile awfully similar to Brandan Wright and Marvin Williams; unproven underclassmen with more potential than anything else and a powerful brand name behind them. At the very least, the teams that drafted Wright and Williams would want that pick back if they could do it over again. Ed Davis is projected to go in the Top-10 this month, but if history is any indication, he could have a forgettable NBA career in front of him.

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  • LMNOP

    dont players from good college teams just always get drafted too high? its like the team being better than the sum of its parts. i think the 05 team is a perfect example of that.

  • pipdaddyy

    Damn, Pete Chilcutt played 9 NBA seasons?

  • JM

    I have been saying this for months every time someone starts hating on Duke. If you look at the picks since that Carter/Jamison year it is really bad. I mean pretty much the best player from UNC has proven to be average at best in the league and many have been complete busts.

  • The Other Aj

    lol @ #2…

    I was thinking the same thing. And he got a ring with the Bulls I believe

  • JAY

    LOL@ pip: I thought the same thing. Crazy.

  • isotope

    I don’t think any other college has a better list than UNC. If you did a starting five they’d win hands down.
    Imagine a starting 5 of:

    pg-Davis (or Williams)
    sg-Jordan
    sf-Carter
    pf-Jamison
    c-Wallace
    6th-Stackhouse.

    What school could beat that.

  • buffaloballa

    so in 1996, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2008 no tar heel players went to the pros…that’s about a TEN YEAR GAP…OR there is something REALLY inaccurate with this article…

  • Badger

    #6 — I think the point was that if you take away Jordan, the more recent players from UNC don’t stack up to their reputation. If we’re going post-89, UCONN has put out a better crop than UNC. Ray Allen, Rip, Caron, Rudy Gay, Okafor, Ben Gordon…

  • http://www.thekevinburkeproject.com Darkness

    Only 2 non-HS All-Americans on that list, impressive

  • 45%

    at #6…. possibly wake forest.

    pg. cp3
    sp. ??
    sf. josh howard
    pf. aminu
    c. tim duncan

    but same thing can be said for duke….none of their players have won an nba championship either.

  • http://dimemag.com Austin Burton

    @buffaloballa — Nobody from UNC went in the 1st round in those years.

  • isotope

    Williams, Stackhouse, Carter, Jamison, and Wallace is at least comparable to Allen, Hamilton, Butler, Gordon, and Okafor. Might even be better. Still, it’s not like they are horrible. Much better than the average college.

  • isotope

    @10. All you have is Duncan and Chris Paul and that’s it from Wake Forest. Those two guys are great but UNC still has a longer list of all-stars.

  • bone0315

    Duke 1st Round Draft Picks under Coach K:

    Johnny Dawkins
    Danny Ferry
    Christian Laettner
    Bobby Hurley
    Grant Hill
    Roshawn McLeod
    Elton Brand
    Trajan Langdon
    William Avery
    Corey Maggette
    Shane Battier
    Jay Williams
    Mike Dunleavey
    Luol Deng
    Shelden Parker (Williams)
    JJ Reddick
    Gerald Henderson

    All High School All-Americans
    8 National Player of the Year Winners
    Total NBA Championships: 0
    Total All-Star Appearances: 9 (Hill 7, Brand 2)

    Sad that the best player (besides Hill) to come out of Duke under Coach K was a second-rounder (Boozer).

  • http://www.runninglikwidworks.com Mr. RLW

    “And of those four, three of them (Vince, Rasheed, Antawn) have become infamous for underachieving given their amazing talent.”

    HUH?

    Let me help you out a little bit. Of those three you pulled out, maybe Vince can be seen as an underachiever. Rasheed as a rookie said himself, he didn’t want to be a star in the league. He said himself, that he wanted to be more like a Horace Grant (on those old Bulls teams), than a superstar. But to stick with your arguement, he had/has the ability to be so much more of a better player than he has allowed himself. I’ll give you those two.

    But there’s NO way, you can count Jamison as an underachiever. Sorry, anyone who feels that way does not know the game of basketball. An undersized 4 man, with career averages of 19 and 8, notorious for double-doubles, check the stats for the past 4 or so years, who has never been the MAN (1st option) on any team he was on, is not an underachiever. Save for the playoffs this year, you couldn’t be more wrong.

    Now the rest of that list, you’re spot on.

  • Shakers

    @6

    You can go farther back and have all-time teams like UCLA:

    PG Gail Goodrich
    SG Reggie Miller
    SF Marques Johnson
    PF Bill Walton
    C Lew Alcindor

    Now that’s a great team.

  • Joe Cooley High

    @RLW — Jamison should be considered an underachiever. He puts up numbers, but he’s not a winner. He’s like Shareef Abdur Rahim. Big numbers, never amounted to anything substantial. Jamison was a jacker in Golden State and Washington and doesn’t come through in the postseason. For somebody picked #4 in the draft you expect more than that.

    As for Rasheed, WTF? He doesn’t WANT to be a star? So he’s intentionally not playing as well as he could? Bullshit. Rasheed has more talent than 99% of the power forwards to ever play the game, he just doesn’t have the heart and work ethic to use it. Fuck that “I don’t want to be a star” BS. And that makes him the biggest underachiever of all.

  • JAY

    Off track…. do you guys remember the Coach K basketball game??? It had the ALL-TIME school teams. Crazy! Alcindor and Walton owned that game. That was in 95 if i remember correctly. So much fun.

    Just thinking… an all-time high-school team is pretty damn sick. I’m talking all-time not just active players.

    LBJ
    Kobe
    T-Mac
    KG
    O’Neal
    Daryl Dawkins
    does B. Jennings count??
    Does S. Kemp count too?? He played a year of JUCO
    Harrington
    Bender…. <– someone needs to carry the bags.

  • Dre

    Here’s what totally destroys this argument. Duke players were none for not doing shit in the NBA. UNC players being average players in the NBA is far beyond a flop. Actually how many superstars can a league have? How many MJ’s can a school put out? If you put a bunch of average players in the NBA who spend multiple years in the league… how is that a flop or underacheiving. Look how many championships and All-Stars are there. You didn’t list Kenny Smith, these guys were far from scrubs in the league, some were average, some were all-stars. Ty Lawson is doing quite well, he is already better then Chris Duhon. Hansbrough was injured 75% of the year but didn’t do bad at all when he was healthy. Jamisons averages 19 pts per game, Sheed is possibly on his way to another Chip. Felton is not a flop, he fought and kept his starting position and is more than respectable. This article becomes more and more less credible. It’s funny that Vince is considered an underacheiver averaging 22.1 pts in his declining years. Are you seeing how ridiculous this is becoming.

    Duke has a longer list of busts trust me, lets look at Duke’s players of the years and UNC’s players of the year and compare. That will also give you an example of who the busts have been.

  • Ted in Durham

    Dook’s list is much more underwhelming as far as NBA success (measured as you have by All-Star appearances and Championships). UNC’s put a lot of solid players in the pros, along with other schools like Conn, Arizona, UCLA, etc. I don’t think criticism is in order for them NOT being top 50 all time guys like Jordan and Worthy.

    The timeline you selected also meshes with the rise of straight to NBA and one and done players. The POY/top all-star types – Kobe, Lebron, Garnett, Howard, Dirk, etc – often didn’t go to college at all.

  • bth

    this is one of the most dumbest articles I have ever read. no one has put out more NBA ready players than UNC. end of story.

  • Dre

    Exactly Ted, players like Dwight and Kobe that said they would have gone to UNC. I just found that out about Kobe last month in a comment he made to coach K during the olympics.

  • nate

    #18 Replace Oneal with Moses Malone and that team might be unbeatable

  • spswange

    @19 Dre

    Totally agree with you…

    they need to define “underachiever” more accurate. seems like that list consist of players making a career out of the NBA; an average of 8 yrs per player. i see only 2 players on that list that are flops: Joe Forte and McCants (i even played ball with him in high school, so i hate to put him as a flop). the fact of the matter is, VC is seemed as an underachiever for the fact that he chokes. who cares, i still would want his NBA career. Not everyone wins titles! MJ (UNC Great) took many titles from great players; are they underachievers as well? NO!…

    Point is, this is not an underachieving list of UNC players. not every school puts out players that stay in the league more 10yrs out…

  • JAY

    @ #23
    You’re right. Good call. That would be a scary team.

  • jdub

    rick fox is far from an underachiever. far.

  • http://www.bc-tw.blogspot.com BCTW

    LMAO all these UNC fans are so angry at the truth! Jamison is a COMPLETE underachiever in terms of winning. Mitch Richmond averaged big numbers his entire career as a member of non-competitive teams. The same can be said for ‘Tawn. He’s a great scorer, very good rebounder, but his teams don’t win. In fact, they don’t even get past the 2nd round of the playoffs. That, my friend, is the epitome of underachieving. Why on earth can’t UNC fans ever accept that one of their own is an underachieving loser? Ed Cota is the 2nd all time assist man in college and couldn’t even get drafted! If that’s not underachieving I don’t know what is! Wake up Tar Holes!

  • http://www.bc-tw.blogspot.com BCTW

    bth — for every “NBA-ready” player UNC has produced, is at least one bust. See Sean May & Brandan Wright for more on that topic. Why do UNC fans ignore the obvious?

  • JAY

    Also to #23… we forgot D-Howard…
    The all-time high-schoolers are loaded up front.

  • dmitry of jersey

    this article has a damn good point.

    do you think Marvin Williams goes #2 if he played for Illinois or Wake Forest?? hell no.

    the article concedes that even 1 game in the NBA is a huge success. but the point is UNC’s reputation precedes itself bc scouts, like fans, are still thinking of Jordan when they are drafting at-best-average players like Williams, Sean may, etc. Shit.. danny granger went #17 in that 2005 draft. if he had UNC on the front of his shirt and all the partially undeserved respect that UNC receives, then granger probably goes ahead mccants, sean may, felton…

  • King Cooper

    #19 — I fail to see how you “totally destroyed” any argument when the author wasn’t even using this as a comparison to Duke. Everybody knows Duke has put out guys who struggle as pros. The title says “Undercover” which to me hints at the fact that people don’t even realize UNC is not this NBA All-Star factory it’s been hyped up to be.

    #22 — I don’t know what you read but it was pretty well-known at the time that Kobe was either going to go to Duke or La Salle (where his Dad was coaching). Dwight didn’t even consider college for one second, so who knows where he would have went. I could see T-Mac maybe going to UNC since he went to high school at Mt Zion.

  • 92021SpurMD

    @ 14, Duke has one championship… Danny Ferry won one with the Spurs…

  • Mr Reality

    Among players that are currently playing in the NBA, teams with more than one All-star -

    High School(8 players, 55 total appearances)-
    Kevin Garnett(13)
    Kobe Bryant(12)
    Tracy McGrady(7)
    Lebron James(6)
    Jermaine O’Neal(6)
    Amare Stoudamire(5)
    Dwight Howard(4)
    Rashard Lewis(2)

    Foreign(8, 27)-
    Dirk Nowitski(9)
    Yao Ming(7)
    Pau Gasol(3)
    Peja Stojakovich(3)
    Žydrūnas Ilgauskas(2)
    Manu Ginobili(1)
    Mehmet Okur(1)
    Andrei Kirilenko(1)

    UNC(4, 16)-
    Vince Carter(8)
    Rasheed Wallace(4)
    Antawn Jamison(2)
    Jerry Stackhouse(2)

    Wake Forest(3, 16)-
    Tim Duncan(12)
    Chris Paul(3)
    Josh Howard(1)

    UConn(3, 14 total)-
    Ray Allen(9)
    Richard Hamiliton(3)
    Caron Butler(2)

    Duke(3, 11)-
    Grant Hill(7)
    Carlos Boozer(2)
    Elton Brand(2)

    Wisonsin(2, 3)
    Micheal Finley(2)
    Devin Harris(1)

    Florida(3, 3)-
    Al Horford(1)
    David Lee(1)
    Jayson Williams(1)

    Alabama(3, 3)-
    Antonio McDyess(1)
    Gerald Wallace(1)
    Mo Williams(1)

    Kentucky (2, 2)-
    Jamal Magliore(1)
    Rajon Rondo(1)

  • Elliot

    so i understand the premise of this article, but you could easily argue that unc is the best school at churning out nba players too. its all about defining “underachievers”. not every good player wins multiple nba championships. look at grant hill. he was supposed to be the next mj, but hes not, and this postseason was his first time past the first round. underachiever? i dont think so. or shelden williams. one of duke’s all time best players. he is collecting splinters. the best players right now came straight out of high school or only had one season in college. period.

  • Jay

    A lot of silliness here. First, a commenter says, “if you leave out Jordan, then…” That’s quite an omission, dontcha think? Second, most of these guys labeled as “busts” (which in many instances, is simply not accurate), played at UNC for about two years. Coaching staffs are limited in what they can impart upon their players in 2 years. The staff at UNC gets the talent in the door- which is their job, it’s just up to the talent to decide how long they would like to stay. Finally, I love including Hansbrough in that list, after he played about 2 full games this season due to a medical condition.

  • Jay

    And finally, geniuses, if the respect is “undeserved”- what incentive is there for scouts, etc. to put them in that position? OR, do the scouts, etc. (i.e., those who know what they are doing and not simply posting on a message board) know what they are doing and where they would like to take chances.

  • Jason

    At #31:
    Dwight Howard did have a college picked if he was going to go, it was UNC. He took only one official visit in high school and that was to Carolina.

    Vince Carter and Antwan Jamison have both had good careers. Until this year they have never been on championship caliber teams, so it is impossible to judge their careers on how many rings they have won. They did not get it done this year but that does not make them “busts.” like someone stated above, how many Jordans and Worthys (2 top 50 players all time) put out? Carter has averaged 22 points per game for his career and Jamison 19 and 8. How are those numbers making them “busts” when they have played on considerbly bad teams for most of their careers.

  • King Cooper

    #33 — You’d have a good point if this article were about only active players, but they’re going back to guys drafted since 1989. That’s a long stretch to only have 4 All-Stars when you get your pick of McDonald’s All Americans ever year.

  • Elliot

    #36 i dont buy that logic. if you look back at the mvp of the mcdonalds all american game in the last 20 years, you only have about 8 good players. only one of those players went to unc (excluding harrison barnes), and 3 didnt go to college at all.

  • Mr Reality

    #36 – The point is Elite programs like Duke, UConn, Kansas, and Kentucky also get their picks at All Americans.

    This whole article is flawed anyway.

  • King Cooper

    What’s flawed about it? UNC is seen as this NBA machine, and this just points out that in the post-Jordan era, the production hasn’t matched the hype.

  • Mr Reality

    My post #40 was intended for #38

    Also #38, NBA talent doesn’t always translate to College. Look at Kentucky this year, they have 5 potential first round players this year and still couldn’t make the Final Four.

  • Mr Reality

    What college has produced your “hype”?

    I’ll wait…..

  • http://getyourishbusted.net Chicagorilla

    I agree that VC underacheived for the talent he posesses’s but
    ROY
    8 time all-star
    nearly 20-5-5 avg for his career.

    Hmm, You guys were just sucking Tyreke Evans nuts for his 20-5-5 avgs. Those are not easy numbers to come by.

    Also, VC was playing PF most of his college career until his Jr. year were he played a little more on the wing. Once he got to the NBA he learned how to dribble very well, how to shoot very well (his career FG has to be 45% or higher which is near or better than Kobe i’m sure), and his passing ability has by far been the most improved since he left UNC.

    So a guy who improves greatly his 3pt shooting, passing, dribbling is an underachiever because of what?

    Ah i know, maybe it’s because he isn’t a stone cold Jacker like everyone thinks he should be. His jumping ability allows him to make difficult shots which I don’t agree he should take. and while VC is clearly not himself now as evidenced in these playoffs and season, he is still better than your avg star.

    As for Jamison, while VC was manning the 4 spot at UNC, the 6’9 Jamison was at the 5 spot. Yes playing center. after his rookie year where he avg about 15ppg, he spent the next 3 years expanding his game to the point where he was able to extend his range out to the 3pt line which allowed him to be versitile enough to play SF in the NBA. That seems like an over achiever to me. No one in the right mind can tell me they knew Jamison would be a 3pt shooter in the NBA after he was setting all types of records at UNC for FG% and rebounds! GTFOH.

    RAsheed… well I have been frustrated with him too, but not because he underachieved, he is just too unselfish. So essientially you guys are knocking him for being too unselfish, which is not the same as being an underachiever. Dude plays his role and that is. He steps out to the 3pt line to clear open the lane for slashers and other post players on the court like, Bonzi Wells, Pippen, S.Smith, Brain Grant, A.Sabonis, Ben Wallace, T.Prince, Billups, RIP, PP, Rondo, Kg, Perkins, and even Webber and J.Howard.

    If you know bball then you can watch and see what he does. It’s the gift and the curse of his versitility and unselfishness. Sure it’ll help his team win and be great, but it’ll severly hurt his game and HOF status.

    Williams, Montross, Wright, Forte, McCants, May, JR Reid, R.Fox, G.Lynch were mostly scrubs who benifitted from their UNC background. And some of them more circumstantial picks (weak draft~Forte, team needs~ Lynch) but JR Reid, Williams, Wright, and Montross are flat out bust. They never should have been picked in the 1st round anyway.

  • T Gski

    As a died-in-the-wool UNC fan, all I have to say is thanks for yet another article for our use in an already overwhelming recruiting story so poignantly spelled out by Harrison Barnes. There are several posts here that use fact based analysis to blow this article out of the water. You would think a clown that apparently writes for a living would take the time do do the same. He must be a Duke grad.

  • SayItAintSo

    How is the article “flawed”? Please provide me with a couple of claims made by AB that are flawed? And don’t give me this vague “how do you define under-achiever” BS…

    Someone already said it, but AB concedes that UNC is the shit, he is simply saying that just like every other school, not every player has lived up to their expectations. That doesn’t discredit all that has been accomplished. He backtracks like 8 times just so people don’t get all butt-hurt and people still manage to digest the information the wrong way.

    Everything is going to be ok…I promise.

  • Joel

    All you guys talking about Duke All-Stars are forgetting that Laettner made the All-Star team in 1997 and actually had a decent game with 7 points and 11 rebounds.

  • dagwaller

    For the record…nothing wrong with the weather or women at UNC.

  • Dre

    King Cooper, a quote from Mr. Bryant… ok yeah and thank you very much. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1003/cbb.celebrity.picks.ncaa/content.12.html

    BTW, the person who wrote the article brought up Duke read it again

  • Dre

    here you go again King Cooper, a quote directly from Dwight on his official blog.

    IF I HAD PLAYED COLLEGE BASKETBALL …

    I’m often asked how my life and my game on the court would be different had I gone to college, but I really don’t think about it that much because growing up my goal was always to be the No. 1 overall pick in the NBA Draft.
    I accomplished that goal in 2004 without going to college, so I don’t look back. Because they no longer let kids jump from high school to the NBA (which I don’t totally agree with), I could be the last high school player ever to be chosen No. 1 overall.
    I watch some college basketball, but really there’s no comparison between the college games and the NBA. What’s the better game? I’m going to go with the NBA.
    College is very animated and they play hard, but it’s nothing like the NBA at all. In the NBA, that’s the best kind of basketball in the world.
    Some people think the NBA is slow, but if you sit close enough you really see how fast the game is and how physical it is. And we have the best athletes in the world, so that makes for a better game.
    Since we’re off tonight and in Houston, I’m sure I’ll watch some of the national championship game with the fellas on the team. As to who I think will win the game, few people actually know where I considered going to college before I made up my mind to enter the NBA Draft. (I made the right decision, don’t you think???)
    If I had gone to college, it would have been to Carolina. So go Heels tonight.
    Peace. — DWIGHT

    http://www.dwighthoward.com/blog/2009/04/06/if-i-had-played-college-basketball/

  • Dre

    Thank you… King for doubting my post.

  • Dre

    BCTW, that is an ignorant statemtent, winning has nothing to do with whether someone is a bust as a player. You have players that are bench guys and they get championships. It has to do with productivity because if you are never put on a team with a proper supporting cast you will never win a championship. So are you saying Stockton, Malone, C. Barkley, Kevin Johnson, Reggie Miller and those guys are underacheivers… everything is like I said before. We chewed this article and spit it out.

  • King Cooper

    Good for you Dre, taking time to do all that research. But Kobe and Dwight still don’t count on your North Carolina NBA list.

  • Dre

    I never said they did, you questioned what I posted and all I did was prove you didn’t know what you were talking about. Admit it, you were wrong or is your ego too big. Don’t blurt out stuff out loud on paper or onthe computer until you know the facts.

  • Dre

    Just in case you forgot what you put.

    #19 — I fail to see how you “totally destroyed” any argument when the author wasn’t even using this as a comparison to Duke. Everybody knows Duke has put out guys who struggle as pros. The title says “Undercover” which to me hints at the fact that people don’t even realize UNC is not this NBA All-Star factory it’s been hyped up to be.

    #22 — I don’t know what you read but it was pretty well-known at the time that Kobe was either going to go to Duke or La Salle (where his Dad was coaching). Dwight didn’t even consider college for one second, so who knows where he would have went. I could see T-Mac maybe going to UNC since he went to high school at Mt Zion.

  • King Cooper

    Dre, you still didn’t do anything to disprove my first point.

  • Dre

    Yeah, I did because they did not give a criteria for underachieving. A lot of people on those list were average but when you start saying people that averaged 19 pts and up are underachievers it leads you to ask what is the criteria he is using. I mean really people who are averaging like 12 pts and up depending on the position and team… what is it that you want them to do. UNC has had stars on their team that have gone to the NBA and done well… real well. I mean Stackhouse’s career average is 18 pts and he played for 15 years. That means that in his old age his low numbers have been steadily knocking down his average. As far as the NBA is concerned he is old. I think no criteria was given for this. Hey left off Kenny Smith who had a good career and won championships. I think I killed his argument.

  • Dre

    Your point as well my friend.

  • King Cooper

    No, you really didn’t.

    “Here’s what totally destroys this argument. Duke players were none for not doing shit in the NBA. UNC players being average players in the NBA is far beyond a flop. Actually how many superstars can a league have? How many MJ’s can a school put out? If you put a bunch of average players in the NBA who spend multiple years in the league… how is that a flop or underacheiving.”

    You claim you “destroyed” a UNC-has-underachievers argument by (1) Using Duke’s pro track record, and (2) Questioning the criteria of what makes an underachiever. At best you brought up a good question of what exactly makes one underachieving, but the Duke part was just typical Tar Heel fan idiocy. And you can’t spell, so…

  • Dre

    I can’t spell… you spelled known… none… i’m sitting in a car typing what is your excuse. Hello pot to the kettle, you’re black…

    No it is a completely stupid statement to say schools putting out average NBA players is a flop. Stackhouse was at one point a Superstar and so was Vince, are they stars now? No! However to say that a school should put out a superstar every draft is stupid an unrealistic. It’s pretty obvious that, u and logic don’t live in the same house so…

  • Holladay

    This article is flawed because atleast the UNC players are good enough to be considered drafting. He talks about all the Final Fours Michigan State has been to. Who’s the last good player they put in the league Jason Richardson. Calipari’s been coaching for over 20 yrs he gives you two ROYs who probably would have went straight to the pros if it wasn’t for the age limit. What has any other players from those teams done in the pro’s. Hell what has UCLA done since Reggie Miller the O’Bannons are probably some of the biggest bust in NBA history it’s just nobody remembers them suiting up. You could still make up a team in the league with only Tar Heels and go more than 10 deep how many other schools can say that.

  • Dre

    Btw, I never used Duke’s record to say that UNC didn’t underachieve I said Duke underachieved and I seperately destroyed the article.

  • Dre

    Holladay, thank you… and let the church say amen.

  • Roman

    Damn, go easy on Sheed. He has a ring. Vince is here to excite the crowd. Like a side show. Not a big game player. He got out played by Reddick(Duke) for gods sake.

  • http://getyourishbusted.net Chicagorilla

    LMAO@ he got outplayed by reddick.

    Did Ray Allen and Paul Pierce not have their way with every guard/forward that was put in front of them? yes they did. That would suggest that every guard on ORL was terrible defensively. So your state of Reddick outplaying anyone is like saying
    “Well at least he’s the fastest kid in the special olympicss”…. only Dwight Howard can do any bragging about that series.

  • Justin

    The way Joe Forte turned out still makes me mad to this day.

  • http://kapatid7799@yahoo.com bucks fan

    nice areticle. in a players perspective UNC players are overated. besides guys like jordan, worthy, VC (which really disapointed me that he played horrible in the playoffs and i think he is in the down side of his carer and hope he gets traded outta orlando cuz the magic has a better chance of him not there), but UNC is only famous cuz the greatest player jordan went to school there.

    so why is it UNC still plays great during the regular seasons… its bcuz UNC program is great. the coaching staff does a wonderful job and getting the best out of its players. thats why i belive an average jo bball player can be a top10 draft pick in any nba draft if he plays for UNC.

    you see wht larry brown does to an averge nba team.. he takes them to the playoffs. larry brown can take any team and have avg players and get in the playoffs.

    thats why i think unc has a great program but overrated players.

  • uncguy

    Wow, expectations can run high. Or sometimes writers take a controversial stand that they really don’t believe in, just to generate hits – it’s not easy to tell which is happening here. Career NBA players portrayed as busts under the “underachiever” veil? I can only dream that Carolina continues to pump out underachievers of this caliber.

  • K Dizzle

    @ “Ed Cota is the 2nd all time assist man in college and couldn’t even get drafted! If that’s not underachieving I don’t know what is!”

    Don’t get what being dafted has to do with underachieving

    Point 2 = On what UCLA has done since Reggie Miller

    -Baron Davis
    -Matt Barnes
    -Kevin Love
    -Russell Westbrook
    -Darren Collison
    -Arron Afflalo
    -Earl Watson
    -Jason Kapono
    -Dan Gadzuric
    -Jrue Holiday
    -Luc Mbah a Moute
    -Trevor Ariza
    -Jordan Farmar

  • King Cooper

    #60 — My “excuse” is that I copied and pasted your own comment, moron. That’s why there was the misspelling. And here’s another of your posts I’m going to copy:

    “No it is a completely stupid statement to say schools putting out average NBA players is a flop. Stackhouse was at one point a Superstar and so was Vince, are they stars now? No! However to say that a school should put out a superstar every draft is stupid an unrealistic. It’s pretty obvious that, u and logic don’t live in the same house so…”

    First of all, who said UNC had to put out a superstar every year? Where did you read that in the article? Where did you read anywhere that UNC is a flop? It says UNC has a history over the last 20-some years or putting out underachievers, and you can’t admit it’s true. You keep going back to Vince and Stack, but funny you never mention JR Reid, Joe Forte, George Lynch and Rashad McCants and all the others written about in the article to prove your point about “average” players. Those dudes weren’t average, they were first-round draft pick busts.

  • Tony K

    1st, Joseph Forte we pro against the coaches advise that he wasn’t ready

    2nd, Brandon Wright was put in a position that he couldn’t turn down. He wasn’t even close to being ready for the NBA but when you throw MILLIONS at a kid that skinny, poor ft shooter, avg to poor offensive skills, you get what you ask for. His biggest asset coming out of UNC was his ability to block shots.

    3rd, Marvin Williams – How do you justify taking a guy that high when he is coming off the bench. Again, just like Wright, the NBA took a kid that was clearly not ready, rated him so high that it was impossible to turn them down.

    Now we have Ed Davis. Hopefully with his dad’s NBA pedigree he will have more success but at this point and looking at what he has done at UNC, I along with a ton of other fans don’t think he is ready. Hopefully with his father’s knowledge, contacts and NBA team and a solid commitment to the game, he will fair better than the above.

  • Dre

    Look Internet thug boy… talking crap behind the safety of your computer the article is stupid you are a complete idiot and I don’t get into the habit of arguing with fools. I don’t play tough up here, don’t need a computer to do so. If you want to be tough feel free to contact me at the_wb91@hotmail.com . I’m sure you won’t. I killed you and that stupid article. It’s obvious dude was bored when he wrote this.

  • Dre

    It is a stupid article because those are 4 people out of the tons of people who have gone to the league. I should break it down for this fool. The article implies by posting those guys along with people who averaged freaking 22+ pts game were some how not living up to some superstar standard. The article made the implication, not me. Had it listed people who only lasted a couple of years in the league and averaged only 3 pts or something it would be valid but since it didn’t it makes the argument invalid. Hell, UNC fans used to brag about being able to get anybody to the NBA because of the likes of the Pete Chilcutts and the Scott Williams. UNC is known for training players to be productive NBA talent does some fall through of course but it makes the article invalid on it’s face.

  • JAY

    Just to add something…
    In my opinion if a player signs a couple contracts AFTER their rookie contract, they are not a bust. The size of these contracts are, with some financial know-how, enough to start businesses and start an income outside of basketball. You know the saying, “It takes money to make money”. Most of the guys on that list are guys who have stuck in the league. Maybe they didn’t blow up as expected but blame the scouts for that, not the players being “busts”. The Kandi man was not good enough to be draft 1st… whoever decided to draft him is the bust. Same goes with Rafael Araujo and others who were taken before they should have been.

    I’m sure i’ll get attacked on this post….
    *ducking the hail storm*

  • CHI2SD

    The article you wrote could’ve been about a lot of teams. UCLA? Kansas? Arizona? A few made it big, a few were busts? Are you trying to tell us the best players in the NBA right now are out of HS or went to a second tier school so they could eat at the “all-you-can-shoot” buffet like Durant? We already know that. Who are you actually comparing UNC to (without violating NCAA standards) anyway? You named a lot of players getting paid right now to form your argument. Isn’t that the goal for any NBA player? 99% aren’t All-Stars, and 99% will never sniff a NBA Championship. You’re setting the bar pretty high and no one is reaching your “standard”.

  • mik

    Don’t think the author is saying Duke hasn’t underachieved NBA-wise, cause they most certainly have. I think he’s just saying that UNC hasn’t been all its cracked up to be, and I tend to agree.

    I don’t believe anything those players say about where they would have gone to school. Remember, Kobe has said many times in the past he would have gone to Duke as well as saying he would have gone to UNC, so he is just saying whatever. Lebron has said he would have gone to OSU, UNC, wanted to play for K in college, wanted to playf or Calipari, etc..so take it all with a grain of salt.

    Look, I get annoyed with Duke, but I respect what they o. The type of player they recruit while All Americans, Battier, Duhon, etc are not the type of player that succeeds in the NBA, so their relative lack of success in the pros is understandable and predictable. Heck, they won a national championship this past year with maybe 1 guy who deserves to be a first round NBA pick, the rest are second round to undrafted picks who will be lucky to 1 year NBA careers.

    Schools like UNC, UK now, Arizona, UConn, etc have always done much better job of recruiting athletes, guys with flair and play the NBA style of game. You can’t argue with the results. UConn has been fantastic at churning out NBA players. I think the author is under selling the careers of Stackhouse, Wallace, and Carter here. I hate VC, think he is the most overrated player ever, but at his peak he was a waaaay above average player, who doesn’t deserve to be a “Bust”.

    Now if the author had made the argument that POST Dean Smith, UNC has struggled, I could agree. Lawson and Hansbrough are still young, so they get passes for now, but you cant’ deny that guy like May, Felton, McCants, Marvin Williams, Brandan Wright, etc have underperformed. I don’t think this is a UNC thing (since it will remain one of the best programs in the world) more so than a Roy Williams thing. Roy wasn’t fantastic at putting out pros at Kansas (Paul Pierce aside), so it’s not really a surprise.

    I don’t see why Michigan State doesn’t get more attention. For a program as successful as they have been the last 10 years, they’ve been pretty horrible at producing pros too (Magic was a very long time ago and doesn’t count to Izzo). Jason richardson is a bit player and Zach Randolph is a 1 time all star. Tha’ts it for MSU’s pros.

  • Keith Hart

    “UNC has produced a string of pros with a habit of falling short of expectations and/or not living up to their potential.”

    One word for this article: fail.

    Exhibit A, B, C – Rick Fox, Pete Chicutt, Hubert Davis were all picked late in the 1st round (24th, 27th, 20th), thus they had low expectations. Yet they played a combined 34 years in the NBA (13, 9, 12) and won a combined 4 NBA Championships (3, 1, 0).

    That’s both exceeding expectations and living up to their potential.

    And regarding the success of the cream of the UNC crop since Jordan (Stack, Sheed, Twan, and Vince) not living up to their potential, let me ask this: if they were re-drafted, would they have gone any lower? I think not.

    I rest my case.

  • Dre

    mik… great post I only disagree with 2 things. I don’t think those players are lying. Why? What do they have to lie about? What does it benefit them? I lie generally has some sort of benefit at the end. Dwight’s last 2 schools were UNC and G. Tech he has always said that would be his school. Kobe never really out of his mouth said he would go to Duke, only that he liked coach K and everyone else took it and ran with it. These guys have no reason to lie, it does not benefit them at all whatsoever.

    Also Marvin Williams have not quite performed up to a #2 pick but he is still a starter and impact player on a playoff team. Me personally I would put an asterik by his name. Lol.

    All and all great post.

  • http://getyourishbusted.net Chicagorilla

    @Dre,

    Yeah Marvin shouldn’t have been drafted that high anyway. ATL is just dumb.

    @Keith Hart

    Great point on the “re-draft” statement and the fact that Fox, Chilcut and Davis were not expected to be stars.