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College, Featured Gallery / Nov 10, 2010 / 2:00 pm

Better NCAA shooter: J.J. Redick or Salim Stoudamire?

Salim Stoudamire at Arizona

As a West Coast kid who grew up rooting for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (though not necessarily the Lakers as a team) and Georgetown University, there’s only one thing worse than having three die-hard Celtics fans and one die-hard Duke fan in the office: That’s having three die-hard C’s fans and two die-hard Duke fans.

In the midst of more unprovoked J.J. Redick slurping, I threw out an unpopular opinion: Salim Stoudamire at Arizona was a better shooter than Redick at Duke.

Of course the Blue Devils in the room called me crazy, but check the numbers:

* In four years of college, Stoudamire hit 45.8 percent of his three-pointers, while Redick hit 40.6 percent. From the field, Stoudamire was a career 47.1 percent shooter, while Redick made 43.3 percent of his tries.

* Redick does have a better free-throw percentage (91.2 to 87.0), but Stoudamire’s best single season was better than Redick’s best. As a senior, Stoudamire hit 50.4 percent from the field and an identical 50.4 percent beyond the arc while making 91.0 percent of his freebies. Redick’s best shooting year, also his senior season, saw him hit 47.0 percent from the field and 42.1 percent from deep.

I’ve watched both shooters in person — though Redick I’ve only seen up-close as a pro. In college, Stoudamire was like Ray Allen or Michael Redd; every time he released his jumper, you assumed it was going in. One of the times I watched Stoudamire live, he actually had a bad night, going something like 2-for-15. But when you watch a shooter, you can tell they’re great, even if that night isn’t their night. Redick was dangerous, no doubt, but Stoudamire was a machine.

Of course, Redick blows Stoudamire out of the water as a pure scorer — he finished his Duke career as the ACC’s all-time leader in points — and has more total threes because he attempted a lot more shots with Duke’s offense basically being run solely for him for at least two years of his career. Redick plays a more complete game, which is why he’s been able to stick in the NBA while Stoudamire is in and out of the League. (Stoudamire is also the size of a small point guard with a two-guard’s game.)

Redick is a better player. But as a pure shooter, I’d take Stoudamire.

What do you think?

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  • CV

    Salim all day!!
    It sucks that he can´t make it in the pro´s. I was in Tucson at the same time as him, and the numbers proved that Salim was killer.

    Go Catz!!!!

  • Patrick

    I agree that the younger stoudamire was a better shooter in college than reddick. He was automatic. Just to spice up the argument a little bit I would take Casey Jacobsen at stanford over either of them. He didn’t shoot as well from the free throw line, but his range went way past the NBA line. I was really excited when the suns drafted jacobsen and amare in 2002.

    Salim was probably the most consistent shooter I have seen in coolege, but he had a really hard time getting open shots in the offense without specific plays drawn for him.

  • JAY

    Salim… they being said, this proves that JUST being a lights out shooter doesn’t get you a job. I’ve heard announcers say that if you can shoot, you’ll find a team that can use you. Obviously this is not the case.

  • Knicksfan84

    +1 Jay….

    You can’t teach height:

    Olowokandi
    Thabeet
    Shawn Bradley
    Tyler Hansborough
    Josh McRoberts
    Robert Traylor
    Tony Battie
    Robert Swift
    Johan Petro
    Oberto
    Kwame Brown
    Eddy Curry
    Tyson Chandler

    Those are some of the scrubs/borderline players that come to mind.

  • K Dizzle

    I still don’t get how Eddie House is in the league and Salim can’t come off the bench for anybody? Clippers. Wolves. Nets. Y’all could use him.

  • DB

    You will see Salim in the pro’s. Promise.. I think a shooter like that is rare int he Nba, he just needs the right system to really shine. Watch the Nba this week, There is a lot of medioker talent all over the place. I think Salim will be a pro once the pros gets to see him again. he was drafted by the Idaho stampede in the Nbdl draft, and its the first step!

  • Detroit Dave

    Wow this is a really good argument. Im def not a Duke fan but I’m biased because being in Detroit we got more Duke games on TV than Arizona games. You should put up a list of their collegiate totals. I think I’ll give the edge to Reddick because he played in Bigger games.

  • BooBooDaFool

    Salim all day, he was so automatic that at one point during their senior seasons Salim could have missed sumthn crazy like 50 straight threes before JJ caught him percentage wise, thats redickulous (lol subtle jab)

  • DB

    Stat was:

    It was Redick would need to make his next 71 field goa;s and 52 # pointers to surpass Stoudamire in season Pct

  • dagwaller

    Who’s a better 3 point shooter: Bruce Bowen or Ray Allen?

    Bowen might have hit at a higher rate than Ray Allen (for a season or two), but Allen hits them with a lot more attention on him.

    All depends on which side of that line you stand on: is the accuracy more impressive, or do you weigh the situationals more heavily?

  • Clutch

    Salim, what you don’t get from the numbers is the range he was shooting from, he was pulling up comfortably and consistently from 33+ feet and draining them. If you can find it watch His last home game against Oregon state, straight out ridiculous. He could also hit shots from any angle, off the dribble, pull ups, fade away and hit I beleive 3 game winners his senior season. Plus 50.4 for a season from 3 is just flat out insane. I still have no idea how he is not a pro player.

  • DB

    Cluth, nice work. Agreeed. Woodson in Atlanta was not the right coach for him right out of college, you go from Lute olson to Mike “mr potato head” woodson. It wasnt the right transition for him.

    But with that said i am confident salim will find his way back to the league.

  • SayItAinSo

    @DetroitDave “Wow this is a really good argument. Im def not a Duke fan but I’m biased because being in Detroit we got more Duke games on TV than Arizona games. You should put up a list of their collegiate totals. I think I’ll give the edge to Reddick because he played in Bigger games.”

    Thank you for admitting your bias…while you may not be on the East Coast, this is the closest anyone has ever come to acknowledging the East Coast bias.

    Just because you don’t see it or because it didn’t happen near, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Conversly, if you do see it and it does happen near you doesn’t mean it’s a bigger game or a bigger deal.

  • SayItAinSo

    P.S. the question is better NCAA shooter… 50.4% speaks for itself. Salim was the truth.

  • dagwaller

    East Coast bias happens for a reason. How many Pac-10 champions have we seen over the last 20 years? And how many ACC/Big East champs?

    There simply aren’t that many top quality teams out West against which Stoudamire could be tested. It’s not his fault. But let’s not confuse Arizone State with UNC.

  • SayItAinSo

    Thanks for the clarification! Silly me, I almost forgot that Arizona State isn’t located in Chapel Hill. East Coast bias makes sense now!

  • Scout

    OK, let me first acknowledge I may be the only Afro-american Duke fan outside of NC.

    Now that we have that out of the way I’m going to probably say JJ Reddick. I give the edge to JJ only because he was more the focal point of the offense and played in bigger game against stiffer comp (ACC is better than PAC 10) .

    Salim was a COLD BEAST of a shooter and you really couldnt go wrong for picking him. I live in ATl and Mike “Mr Potatoe head i dont’t play rookies” Woodson had no idea how to use him. He has the skill to be on somebody NBA roster, I wonder if there was something else(poor attitude, not playing D) that has caused him to not get a shot to get back in.

  • CoolBreeze

    Nice arguments guys (from the article and on the board).

  • Jamo

    Salim is good enough to be playing in the NBA, he has played on a few teams already, he just needs the right team to play on!

  • Big T

    When I was reading this article, I was thinking the same thing that’s been stated a couple of times already… JJ played in a better conference, against more quality opponents. Salim is a good shooter, but I’ll have to give the edge to JJ, simply based on the BIG picture… not just percentages.

  • Diego

    Unfortunately for Salim, Woodson basically froze him out in Atlanta. It was a mystery to the Atlanta faithful (yes, there are some of us) why Woodson didn’t play him more. When he did play, he still had the light’s out shooting (he actually had 1 game I believe where he got to play and put in 30+). Just like Boris Diaw earlier (another mystery–it was no mystery when he got most improved immediately after trade to Phoenix; he just finally got some playing time), Woodson just did not like Salim.

    Thank goodness stubborn Woodson is gone.

  • ChuckTayd

    jj.

  • mike syd

    salim…..dude had CRAZY range at the U of A. I got to watch him in person and, what a lights out dude.

  • dagwaller

    @ SayItAintSo – Good, now that I’ve cleared that up, here’s East Coast Bias 102.

    Number of Championships Eastern Schools (UConn, MD, Duke, UNC, FL, Syracuse) have won over the last 20 years? 13.

    Number of Championships Western Schools (Arizona, UCLA) have won over the same time period? 2.

    Silly you, you thought that all opponents were created equal. You probably think that beating Berkeley is the same as beating Pitt or MD.

    The PAC-10/WAC can’t even win in the NIT, sporting 2 championships over the same timespan, vs. East Coast schools winning 9. Please.

  • moneymaker

    absolutely absurd argument. has anyone forgotten that JJ has the all time NCAA record for most 3’s made? Also, it’s not a question of Duke “basically running their entire offense for him” (i’ve heard this proferred in so many anti-JJ tirades over the years as though it’s a bad thing – it means he was the best player on one of the best teams in the country. Either that or Coach K is stupid…which would make him a strange choice to run the USA program where he garners respect from Kobe, Lebron and the other NBA greats) its the recognition that teams geared their entire DEFENSE to stop him every night. Granted, teams were obviously aware of, and keyed on, salim stoudemire, but the attention was not nearly as relentless as it was on JJ. That, and the size of the games JJ played in, the difficulty of the conference etc. And also, call me a basketball purist, but does not the aesthetic quality of the shot count for even the smallest of considerations? In other words, if it was a dead heat (which i maintain it is not) wouldnt the fact that JJ’s form and release are picture perfect break the tie with salim, who has a somewhat awkward elbow-out realease? The answer is simply JJ all day every day.

  • tha sickness

    wow, moneymaker, Coach K called, your on his jock.

  • Clutch

    How did Salim not play in equally as big as games, I beleive he was in the sweet sixteen 3 times in his four seasons of play. and no Arizona State is not UNC but Salim’s senior season they had the PAc-10 player of the year and went to the NIT, while Washington was a one seed in the tournament that year, and both Stanford and UCLA went to the pac-10. Plus Salim played against UTah with Bogut (granted he had a bad game on that one) Wake forest with Chris Paul, Illinois with Deron Williams, Washington with Nate Robinson, UCLA with Affalo and Jordan Farmer, and I know I am missing some players and teams but this is just off the top of my head.

    Also Salim didn’t score as much as Reddick as he didn’t shoot as much and didn’t have an offense slowly defined around him getting his shot as Duke’s was for Reddick. Granted Reddick was an excellent college player and a better pro (due to having a position) But Salim was a much better overall shooter.

  • C.G. the Great

    The obvious answer to this question is clearly Jack McClinton

  • Ross

    Didn’t indicate how many shots each player took…I am guessing that J J Reddick took quite a bit more being the leading scorer in ACC History. I am going Reddick…even though I am heel fan.

  • DB

    As picking salim, the moral of the story is, JJ has made a career in the NBA, and salim hasnt yet, becuase like a few of us said, Atlantaq didnt know how to utilize such a great player, but hopefully by the years end, We will all come back to this blog, and say its about time salim got the right oppurtunity in a system that works for him! He is so talented and hopefully a team in the nba will realize this soon. I think he will turn out to be a solid NBA player very soon.

  • moneymaker

    wow, ‘tha’ sickness, care to address any of my arguments?

    and again, Clutch, how does Duke’s offense being geared for JJ in any way detract from his greatness as a shooter? Perhaps he took more shots than salim because he was more capable of making difficult, contested ones? In other words, it was in Duke’s interests for him to take those tough shots because he was such a great shooter and had a high chance of making them. Conversely, salim took fewer because it was NOT in his team’s interests. Coaches make decisions regarding who to run their offense through based on an evaluation of said players — the offenses are not devised for faceless bodies and then implemented regardless of personel. The fact that salim did NOT have the offense run through him to the same extent was not a result of happenstance but rather a more or less direct (depending on general coaching philosophy) result of the coaches’ evaluation of the player at the time (based on practice etc.) To continue to point to this difference has no bearing on the greatness of the shooter, as such, and in fact could be construed as the more an offense is run for someone the better shooter they are. Youre contention that “salim was a much better overall shooter” is absolutely laughable.

  • moneymaker

    and can we start spelling names correctly: Redick, one “d”.

  • JP

    alright, a few things here. dagwaller, here is some geography lesson for you. because of pure population density there are more people who live in a smaller area in the east coast, and more schools in said area. of course the acc and big east are going to have more championships, they have more schools in a smaller area. thats basic stats and probability too. look at the map, and look at all the empty states like wyoming or montana that are west of the mississippi, which theres so much congestion here in the east. the argument of “because most east coast championships means they are better competition” is ridiculous.

    secondly, (directed at everybody now) people act as if salim was some sort of slouch and nobody ever paid attention to him. his junior and senior year, he was still a major figure of the team, and teams would play a box and 1 against him and shadow him all game. its not like nobody paid attention to him and he didnt have pressure situations.

    third, people say just because redick had the most 3 pointers makes him a better shooter. incorrect. he took 1126 3 pointers in his career, and never less than 238 his freshman year. salim took 342 in his career. honestly, give almost any shooter over 1000 3 pointers in their career and im pretty sure they would rank high on that list too, maybe not jj redick high, dont get me wrong, hes a very good player, but the argument that he has the most 3 pointers therefore he is better is a flawed argument.

    its easy to see salim was a better shooter, especially when the only arguments against him are flawed ones. simple statistics and knowledge here guys, maybe attend your college classes instead of just registering and blowing them off. you may learn something.

  • Clutch

    I was not pointing out Redick being the center of Dukes offense as a knock on him as a player or shooter, as I did say I felt he was an excellent college players, but to point out that counting the number of threes made and points scored is not a good way to conclude to Redick being a better shooter than Salim. As since he was heavily the focal point and Salim was a focal point, Redick shot more shots and thus scored more points and made more three point attempts.

    Subsequently Salim not taking as many shots does not reflect that him doing so was not in the best interests of the team, it is merely a reflection on the type of offenses run by Duke and Arizona respectively. Duke with Redick often ran high screen and rolls, double screens, back cuts, and stagger screens to free up Redick as a shooter and proceed from there. Arizona ran a motion offense with Salim which works better with a more balanced offensive attack. To assume that a player A took less shots than player B when both player and and player B are their teams leading scorers, and thus player B was a better shooter is the same as saying both teams run an identical offense, against identical competition with identical talent surrounding them, which is of course absurd.

  • Clutch

    Likewise (sorry my computer auto posted) Redick making more threes is not indicative of being a better shooter, For example Jason Kidd made more 3s than Steve Kerr, Steve Nash, Glen Rice, and many other excellent shooters, does this mean Kidd is a better three point shooter than Say Kerr or Nash?

  • http://deleted dagwaller

    @ JP – that would be East Coast bias 201. So let’s see. If UNC has won 2 or 3 championships over the last 20 years, and Duke has won the same amount, and MD has won one, wouldn’t it stand to reason that they have been consistently good? And that, therefore, teams that play against them (you know, teams like Duke, UNC, and MD) are tested that much better?

    Furthermore, these teams are constantly winning. They win their conference and they win National Championships. Why would they NOT be covered more? More people live there AND they win. That’s why no one covers North Dakota’s basketball team. There’s no such thing as a “Northern Midwest bias”, not because they’re not great people, but because there’s no one that cares their games (comparatively – again, population density) and they don’t win.

    Finally, please re-evaluate your own statement, “More championships doesn’t mean better competition”. What exactly, in your estimation, creates better competition? Because apparently it’s not more schools, and it’s not championship-caliber schools. I would LOVE to know.

  • JP

    dagwaller

    yes, nobody covers north dakaota because there IS no north dakota basketball team… I dont know if this forum will allow links, but look at this. http://www.mapofusa.net/us-population-map.gif

    right there it shows you. there are almost twice as many BCS championship level schools in north and south carolina as there are in california. and california still drwarfs the states in size. its population density and probability. you took the big east and the acc, which have 28 teams combined, and then you look at the pac 10… and thats pretty easy, even you can add up that there are only 10 in that league. SIMPLE PROBABILITY tells you that of course the acc or the big east or any other conference you try to say will have more champions. its like saying, who will win more super bowls? the AFC or the NFC south? its pretty easy math if you would know what to do with numbers.

  • moneymaker

    “its easy to see salim was a better shooter, especially when the only arguments against him are flawed ones. simple statistics and knowledge here guys, maybe attend your college classes instead of just registering and blowing them off. you may learn something.”

    really “JP”, this last paragraph is a tour de force in logical reasoning. you spend the majority of your post arguing as to why so-called ‘simple statistics’ (such as total number of 3’s made – pretty simple) are irrelevant, only to conclude with this? listen – a relatively insignificant NCAA player (because honestly, where does salim stoudamire rank in the pantheon of basketball [college, pro, whatever]when its all said and done?) happens to ‘out-stat’ one of the college games’ all time great players and this is supposed to prove somehow he was a better shooter? Clutch’s point as to nash and kerr vs. kidd is instructive here (though not in the way he intended it); OF COURSE the former are better shooters than the latter, anyone with a basic understanding of the game could realize as much. “Simple statistics” are wholly inadequate for making any such judgement, PARTICULARLY percentages – these offer woefully skewed readings of a player given they do not measure importance to the team but some detached ratio completely devoid of context. The point is that JJ undoubtedly played in more important games for a more important team (if you think otherwise, get over it and move to the east coast). Your own ratio is the most telling fact (though I cannot corroborate the accuracy of the statistic), if JJ took 1126 career 3 pointers compared to 342 for salim — i mean, are you kidding me? that alone should settle the argument (or if it doesnt, then lets find some scrub that shot 2 three pointers in his career and hit 1, making him a 50% shooter and therefore absolutely unreal, apparently). The context of the shot MUST account for something. There have been many many players that have shot higher %’s then JJ over the years, but he was a hall of famer who was a shooter, meaning he took and made more difficult jumpers than guys who were role players and a shooter, and even guys that were stars and shooters (salim). To even compare such a marginal player to one of the greatest of all time is downright offensive; why dont we start counting makes in some dudes driveway and question whether he could have outshot larry bird while we’re at it?

  • http://deleted dagwaller

    @ JP – you’re missing the point. I’m not disagreeing with what you’re saying. It all makes good sense. What I’m saying, though, is that BECAUSE there are more people and more schools out East, there will naturally be more and better competition. Yes, there are only 10 schools in the Pac-10, and none of them are particularly good (historically) outside of Arizona. THEREFORE, as I made mention of in my original point, Salim Stoudamire was never tested the same way Redick was.

    Ps I have always hated JJ Redick.

  • FreeSkita

    I’d take Salim over JJ but if you opened it up a little, I’d take Steve Logan over all comers.

  • tha sickness

    Moneymaker-
    Don’t get me wrong, JJ is/was an incredible shooter.Its obvious we are on different sides of this fence. I think that Larry Bird is the G.O.A.T for shooters, and his form is fugly, but beautiful, cuz it’s HIS! I feel the same way about Salim’s form, he gets it done. JJ’s release IS picture perfect, and that’s beautiful, but in a, “We need a dagger/ game winner NOW!” , I’ll take Salim over JJ. If I want a consisten starter, I’d take JJ. Best PURE shooter- Salim, I’ve seen him do too much crazy shit from INSANE range, to not pick Salim, he’s a fucking beast. I watched him make 10 plus in a row from just inside halfcourt, while not changing his form one bit( at practice, before Lute closed ‘em to the public). I was just giving you a hard time, cuz obviously, like me, you’re a fan, and it’s hard to hide it!

  • tha sickness

    Moneymaker-
    Don’t get me wrong, JJ is/was an incredible shooter.Its obvious we are on different sides of this fence. I think that Larry Bird is the G.O.A.T for shooters, and his form is fugly, but beautiful, cuz it’s HIS! I feel the same way about Salim’s form, he gets it done. JJ’s release IS picture perfect, and that’s beautiful, but in a, “We need a dagger/ game winner NOW!” , I’ll take Salim over JJ. If I want a consisten starter, I’d take JJ. Best PURE shooter- Salim, I’ve seen him do too much crazy shit from INSANE range, to not pick Salim, he’s a fucking beast. I watched him make 10 plus in a row from just inside halfcourt, while not changing his form one bit( at practice, before Lute closed ‘em to the public). I was just giving you a hard time, cuz obviously, like me, you’re a fan, and it’s hard to hide it!

  • tha sickness

    Moneymaker-
    Don’t get me wrong, JJ is/was an incredible shooter.Its obvious we are on different sides of this fence. I think that Larry Bird is the G.O.A.T for shooters, and his form is fugly, but beautiful, cuz it’s HIS! I feel the same way about Salim’s form, he gets it done. JJ’s release IS picture perfect, and that’s beautiful, but in a, “We need a dagger/ game winner NOW!” , I’ll take Salim over JJ. If I want a consisten starter, I’d take JJ. Best PURE shooter- Salim, I’ve seen him do too much crazy shit from INSANE range, to not pick Salim, he’s a fucking beast. I watched him make 10 plus in a row from just inside halfcourt, while not changing his form one bit( at practice, before Lute closed ‘em to the public). I was just giving you a hard time, cuz obviously, like me, you’re a fan, and it’s hard to hide it!

  • Ace-One

    Think it depends on what you mean by “pure shooter.” If you mean shooting the basketball outside of an actual game context, it might be Salim. But then again, there are old guys who never played past high school who can make 1,000+ free throws in a row, but nobody cares. Yeah, Salim might have been the better “pure shooter” (even given his funky stroke and relatively poor FT shooting), but he couldn’t have done what JJ did.

    So, here are some thoughts:

    First of all, we need to recognize that most of Salim’s candidacy rests on his amazing senior year stats, which I admit were bonkers. His other three years were very good, but far less impressive.

    Free Throws: JJ takes this easy. His college career FT% is higher than Salim’s best single season number. Also, for a “pure shooter,” Salim’s 79.5% clip his junior year is unacceptable.

    3-pointers: Yes, Salim’s 3P% is a clear cut above JJ’s. Bear in mind, however, that Salim attempted 238 3’s his senior year, which was 50 more than he shot in any previous season. 238 is the same number of attempts as JJ’s LOWEST season total (his freshman year). Volume matters here. If you shoot a lot, it generally means you having to take more contested/difficult shots. Reggie Miller and Ray Allen have never led the league in 3P%, whereas the likes of Anthony Peeler, Bruce Bowen, and Brent Barry have. So you have to take the percentages in context.

    Maximum range: I guess about even. Both of them frequently shot 2 or 3 steps behind the college arc without any loss in form. If anything, I’d give JJ the nod. Looking at his YouTube clips, he’s busting deep threes with marked regularity.

    Midrange game: Slight nod to Salim. His midrange form was almost the same as his three-point stroke. Very consistent. JJ didn’t use as much of a midrange game, but that was primarily a product of Duke’s offensive scheme. Most of his shots were long threes or at the basket. When he did go midrange, he was effective, but didn’t look as smooth or comfortable.

    Shooting form: A subjective category, but this is the area that really separates the two in JJ’s favor. I’m not talking about Salim’s funky sideways shooting motion; it’s unorthodox but he’s consistent with it (kind of like Jim Furyk’s golf swing). But you want to know why 6’1″ Salim is not in the NBA while 6’1″ Eddie House is? It’s because House has a lightning fast release. To be a sniper in the NBA you either need to be tall with a high release or have a quick release. Check Salim’s clips; dude likes to float for a sec at the top of his jump before shooting. He could get away with it in college, but at his height that’s a recipe for trouble in the NBA. Redick has a much more compact and quick shooting motion. Check out his clips and you’ll see he requires a lot less time and space to get his shot off.

    So that’s my take. Salim was deadly accurate with his, but Redick had the more practical and effective shooting game that translated better to the pros.

  • http://deleted dagwaller

    Wow – Ace-One is the man

  • Derik

    Salim has no right hand… maybe he needs to practice his off hand more

  • Dre

    I am a UNC fan so you know how I feel about Duke but I can tell you that it is JJ hands down. Like you stated more plays were drawn for JJ. Also like you stated, JJ took more 3 pt shots than Salim. If I shot 4 3pts a game and someone else shoots 10 and I have a 50% average and they have a 40% average am I really a better 3 pts shooter? JJ played for a team in a stronger conference, played against better competition and is the main offensive threat on the most hated team in America. He broke the ACC’s all-time leading scoring record. It is JJ without a doubt.

  • GenKnight

    Rick Mount & Austin Carr are the best I’ve seen.

    Double and tirpled teamed ALL the time.

    Ray-Ray (abs sweet j) and Redick fall in after them.

    Auto-jays.