To me, he’s definitely even with Garnett at the very least. If Dirk has another great season and another few good ones, he’ll finish ahead of Garnett.

I can’t put him ahead of Malone yet. Malone’s teams were successful for so long, and his individual brilliance was outstanding. Dirk will probably never match his numbers. The only areas in which Dirk will get some shine here are in titles (1) and the fact that Malone had Stockton for so long, while Dirk had Devin Harris. Think about that.

On the other hand, I think this puts him above Barkley. Barkley was probably the best undersized PF ever, but just as Dirk can’t rebound like Barkley, Chuck couldn’t score like Dirk. And just as the article says, Barkley never enjoyed nearly the amount of team success that Dirk has had.

Never saw Hayes or Pettit, but I hold them in high regard from reading about them.

McHale is tricky, because while he had better team success than Dirk, he also had Bird, Microwave, Chief, etc.

I have Tim Duncan, Kevin McHale, and perhaps Hayes/Pettit ahead of Dirk. Malone is about even. Puts Dirk into the top 25 all-time. Not bad.

I have Duncan, Malone, Barkley, Pettit, Hayes, Garnett all ahead of Dirk. Thats not gonna change, maybe he’ll move ahead of KG, but he’s only a one-trick pony, and the rest had other aspects to their game.

Vinnie played with McHale? When? Enlighten me!

well i can see dirk ranked anywhere from 2-5 and wouldnt complain. one more ring and hes def 2 dont think he can jump over duncan but over a ringless malone and barkley why not?? always thought he was better than kg who isnt in my top5.

I love these types of debates. You can be a legit great player on a nonchampionship team. True the ultimate goal is to win the championship but well damn… Barkley and Malone ran into Jordan.

Go ahead Dime – you know you want to. “2011 Mavs vs. 1996 BUlls”

Of the PF all timers, Dirk’s the most skilled offensively. I’d give a slight edge to Kevin Garnett because he was a better defender and rebounder but he could pass him since Dirk’s game will likely keep him an elite player for at least another 3 years.

Yes a one-trick pony, his offensive game. He can shoot, but lets not forget that Duncan is a great jump shooter, and KG range is hit anywhere inside the arc. Malone was money anywhere from 18′ in, and Barkley was hella versatile. All of them are much better passers than Dirk, much better rebounders, and except for Barkley all played defense…and Barkley wasn’t a bad defender, he was just hella undersized so they shot over him. He still put a hand up and was physical. All had more of a big man post game. I did NOT see Pettit play, but his numbers speak for themselves.

He doesn’t rebound anywhere as good as the other PFs, so hes automatically under them. Don’t get Finals Drunk.

@Heckler – YES, Webber is also one of the Greatest PFs as well.

Uf. It’s sad that people reflexively assume that defense is the conversation ender…

KG is better than Dirk on defense. Let’s get that out of the way.

To put it simply, though, for all of KG’s statistic piling, to how many titles did he lead his teams? If you paid any attention, the total was “0″. ZERO. In fact, he never even made the Finals til he teamed up with TWO Hall of Famers.

KG ran into the Lakers and the Spurs. If I’m not mistaken, Dirk had to contend with the same teams, and still had tons more success.

Something that I have been harping on for years is that just as KG leads a defense, Dirk leas his offense. There is an equal amount of space on the floor. A good defense makes that space seem smaller; good defenders do the same thing. A good offense does the opposite: it makes all of the shooters wide open, opens up lanes, etc. What KG does on defense, Dirk does on offense.

Dwight Howard does it by demanding a double in the post. Derrick Rose does it by slashing to the hoop. LeBron does it with his court vision. Ray Allen does it by forcing defenders to stay at home on him instead of crashing the post/boards.

Dirk’s style does ALL of that. How many jumpshooting teams have we seen come and go? This team won it all because they could play good defense while continually getting GREAT looks at the basket. And it’s not because of their sick handles or ability to break their man down. And there hasn’t been a player with that kind of offensive style in a long time.

dagwaller
and still no one has answered why if dirk is so bad on d people dont drop 30 on him like he does to them. the man killed kg everytime they played.

*Dirk is just NOW (not “not”) getting to be an avg defender. that typo changed the whole meaning there…

@ Celts – first, I’m glad that you’re taking the high road and we don’t have to drag this out haha. Damn you, Dime, for making the same 5 people have the same argument 3 times over the last 2 months!

The team success argument comes down to a few things.

Did he win as the alpha? Dirk did, and KG did not.

Was he successful as the alpha? Dirk has been, KG was not, though I can see why some would argue the surrounding talent wasn’t equal. Personally, I feel that KG had better talent, but that’s another debate that we’ve already had.

Once he was surrounded by talent, did he win? Both of them have. Again, though, MANY thought that Boston’s team was better going into this postseason, to say nothing of the past few postseasons, than Dallas’s. Who would you rather have – Perkins or Dampier? Or how about this year. Would you rather have had Kidd, or Kidd from 10 years ago (Rondo)? Paul Pierce or Shawn Marion? Ray Allen or JJ Barea?

If you say you’d rather have had the older, slower Mavericks surrounding your PF, you’re lying.

Something else that has eluded conversation on this thread is the glaring lack of Tim Duncan. He wasn’t even mentioned in the article. I figured that was because it was assumed that TD is the best of them all, but shouldn’t someone argue for him a little?

Because really, as has been argued so many times, he’s great, but he was surrounded by Manu Ginobili, David Robinson, and Tony Parker. He had better teams than anyone on these lists, except for McHale.

…Ian?

And KG was older by the time we got him, so thats not a fair comparison.2004 KG could have absolutely won a title with this Dallas team.

@dag the athleticism/skill thing is on point (though that diminishes how GREAT KG was on D – best since Scottie, no question – and good all around on things that don’t need athleticism, but I get you, offensively) To me, Dirk needs another ring to pass KG cuz I think KG was that fucking good. For a good 5 year stretch, he was the best defensive player and rebounder in the league and a top 10 scorer, but Dirk will be “the man” longer than KG was able to cuz of the fact that even at 26, his vert was probably under 10 inches. Same reason Pierce has stayed good into his early-to-mid 30s. That old man game ages really well. Still, if you rate every other aspect of basketball (passing, finishing, rebounding, shot blocking, on-ball D on every fucking position on the court, etc.) you’d take KG over Dirk in every area but scoring and clutchness (admittedly, those are 2 of the top 3-5 indisputably, but KG’s scoring wasn’t that far off from Dirk’s albeit a bit more limited, and clutchness? Well…) He’s got plenty of time, just saying, as of today, it’s KG to me if I’m building a team from scratch. I feel like it’s easier to find a #1 scorer than it is to find a guy that can anchor a defense like that and 20-25 per if you need him to, even though his mindset has always been that of a #2 (too unselfish late in games, which is fine if you’re passing to Ray or Paul, but if Ricky Buckets or Trenton Hastle’s taking that last second shot and you’re not down 3, come on now…)

Dirk’s evolutionary at his position and going down as one of the 30 best ever, but KG’s the full package. Here’s what I mean here: Dirk’s GREAT, but you need to get a defensive center to protect the rim or you’re squad’s gonna get owned in the paint (enter All NBA Defensive 2nd or 3rd team center Tyson Chandler) That’s fine, you make that move and find a good fit. With KG, he’s your #1 scorer (in his prime) and able to do all the Tyson Chandler-type stuff but is one of the best ever at doing it. so you can get a guy with defensive limitations next to him and know you’re ok. You put Dirk on those Nash/STAT/Matrix teams, they give up 130 a game. Put KG on them, they get better defensively and he can still score at a good clip. KG can fit into any team and make them better, Dirk needs specific pieces around him cuz he does have limitations to his game. In his prime KG had none except clutchness, which is where we should be talking about a much longer partnership with Cassell. Just a philosophical opinion I’ve always had on ball. Versatility will settle any tiebreaker that a huge gap in rings can’t.

hope I was able to make some different points in today’s Dirk vs. KG argument. I’m sure we’ll do this at least 10 more times this summer. God help everyone else if there’s a long lockout…

No doubt timmy is greatest power forward all time. It’s funny how every time an article about great PF’s shows up a fight breaks out over Dirk and KG. It’s like this ain’t an article without it haha

i also dont agree that its easier to find a crunch time scorer for kg than a defensive big for dirk.

how many dudes are in the nba with that pierce,kobe,manu attitude?? that is what kg needs.

now u can find a tyson chandler/perkins type player easier for dirk.

then again we are gonna spend the summer on this thing cuz no one is gonna change their minds about kg and dirk now.

@ian – Came out wrong. Meant it as KG’s more versatile and can do both things, just not necessarily clutch. But again, Cuban’s spent over a hundred mill trying to find tht guy for Dirk (Haywood, Dampier, Dsagana Diop) before getting Chandler (who’s All NBA Defensive team, 3rd team I think.) It’s not exactly easy. When you have a guy like a Chandler or Noah or (godamnit) Perk, you tend to not give them up easily. Notice I say you, cuz we traded ours for a basketball pump and 2 needles.

and ya, I’m not having this discussion a million times. It’s an opinion thing til KG comes back and averages 25, 13, 5, and 2 or Dirk wins another ring. Til then, it’s just opinion, but this article seemed like a good time to rehash that argument since that’s basically what the whole thing was about.

@ Celts – great points about KG’s versatility. This is why I like arguing with you – you make good points.

Another thing I think we should consider is that KG in 2004 was 2 years more experienced than Dirk at that point. Funny how exactly 2 years later was Dirk’s first “peak”, going to the Finals and starting his MVP year. Then KG won his title in 2008, and only 3 years later, Dirk won his.

Those may be funny coincidences, but I think that looking back on their careers, without having to consider the 2 year difference, you’ll look back more kindly on Dirk for those 2 years.

This is all IF Dirk can keep up a similar level of production as he ages. Which, as we both have mentioned, is even more likely than KG.

I remember one all-star game in the early 2000s when Yao, Shaq, KG, Dirk and TD were all in the game. I was hoping like hell that the coach (probably Phil or Pop) would pull an ALL 7 FOOTER lineup: Shaq at C, Yao at PF, TD at SF, Dirk at SG, and KG at PG. It’s funny because at the time, that’s how they all played: Shaq the bruiser inside, Yao the huge dude that could still shoot, TD playing tight D and still having a midrange game, Dirk shooting from all over, and KG passing like a lead guard…nasty.

That team would’ve made 120 mil per year haha.

@Baller 02 – what about when you could guard Dirk with 6’6″-6’8″ swing men? He struggled after GS showed the blueprint. This was actually the first post-season that Dirk showed alot of confidence and wasn’t frustrated by the defenders. Karl was on offensive player, he was a traditional PF, before they became perimeter players. He was low-post, high-post, pick-n-roll, pick-n-pop and 15′ on out. These are basically what his peers were as well.

@steffan – you’re out of your mind. Dirk has had some great help around him, while KG had Cassell and Spree together for one year (and Sam alone for just 1 more year,) lost 4 out of 5 1st round picks in his prime, and was flanked by Ricky Davis or Wally Szyerbiak as his #2 for a good 3 or 4 years.

Dirk’s had tons of talent around him, albeit no other superstars like him, but Nash (still borderline all star even then, but not what he becamse) and Finley (the alpha in Dirk’s early years) = Spree and Cassell, and he had them much longer than the one year KG had those 2. Who’s been Dirk’s worst #2? Josh Howard? Jason Terry? Older Shawn Marion? KG would murder someone to not have had to say Wally or Ricky Davis and not start next to Trenton Hassle for much of his career. Come on now. Dirk’s had the least talent of them all?!? GTFOH

celts fan and dag
i think they had similar talent i just think dirk makes those dudes look better than what they really are.

now pleaseee lets stop the duncan had all those dudes together you make it sound like he had 95 robinson 05 manu and 07 parker together he didnt. he won with completly dif squads in 99 and 07.

another thing is that you guys always use well barkley woudnt have won vs jordan. why not?? they made it once and gave him a good series but thats my point he made it only ONCE.

dirk and kg of the list have played with the least talent true but dirk has won with the worst team of the group that says alot.

@dag – take away ONE YEAR of Cassell and.Spree.(plus one more yr of just one.of them) amd tell me 1 talented guy on that squad thatd get burn in this series for Dallas

@ celts fan

true. the wolves had a very poor team.. finley was great, nash too and you cannot compare these guys to the likes of hassel and hudson. szerbiak wasnt too bad i think. wasnt he an allstar at some point?
what i wanted to say is that during his finals appearances dirk had by far the least support compared to title runs of garnett or duncan.
someone else pointed this out before but the 2008 celtics were an amazing team. you cannot give garnett the same credit for getting that ring compared to nowitzkis efforts this year. you cant.
all im saying is dirk won a championship as the only superstar on his team and kg won it together with 2 other superstars.
for me that makes the difference.

Put it this way, if you asked someone who they’d rather have in 2004, it’d be KG. 2006? KG. 2008? KG. You can’t just base it on recent years when they’ve been in the league almost the same amount of time. If Dirk keeps running shit the next few years and wins another ring, then you can start the argument. Til then, come on.

and I’ll play devils advocate here. Nash was just “very good”, not great, on Dallas – Finley was great though and the alpha for the first 3-4 years of Dirk’s career, but Ray was supposed to be close to washed up when he got here and Paul was supposed to be declining. It’s not like they were both 26. Both were younger or the same age as Shawn Marion is this year (admittedly, both were better than he ever was in their primes, but regardless, we say Marion’s old now.)