Featured Gallery, NBA / Feb 27, 2012 / 2:30 pm

Paul Pierce, Larry Bird & The Lies Nostalgia Told You

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Paul Pierce

Paul Pierce (photo. Gary Land)

This isn’t just about Pierce versus Bird, though. Earlier this week I planted a couple seeds on DimeMag.com suggesting Kobe Bryant and LeBron James might outrank Bird on the unofficial list of the NBA’s all-time greatest. The majority of the feedback from readers was what I would’ve expected had I walked into a Bronx barbershop saying Pitbull is a better lyricist than Big Pun. A sampling:

“Lebron has no chance at guarding Bird. One on one, two on two, 5 on 5, or however you want to break it down, Larry would rape LBJ offensively.”

“I just started cracking up thinking about people saying that Kobe is better than Bird nonsense.”

“Larry is way better than what LeBron James will ever be as a basketball player and probably as a human being.”

“It’s not even a (expletive) argument. The fact that anyone who considers themself a basketball writer or fan would think Kobe is in the same gym as Larry Bird is infuriating. Larry Bird? Bird? Kobe ain’t even better than Tim Duncan or Shaq!!!! And you trying to talk LARRY (EXPLETIVE) BIRD!!!???”

What I saw then is the same as what I witnessed earlier this year, when debates surfaced comparing the 1992 Dream Team to the 2012 U.S. Olympic roster:

It’s the towering height of the pedestal on which players from the ‘60s and ‘70s, and especially the ‘80s and ‘90s, have been placed. The pedestal is, as my man Jimmy McMillan would say: Too. Damn. High.

Our sports culture has a nostalgia problem. While I’m glad sports hasn’t gone the way of hip-hop and deemed its legends irrelevant upon their 35th birthdays, the reverence shown for the old school over the new constantly moves from respectful to delusional.

Maybe it’s for the same reasons that, no matter when you grew up, the music we listen to as teenagers is the music that resonates with us for the rest of our lives. Or it’s for the same reasons that our first loves are unforgettable.

If you grew up watching Isiah Thomas in your formative years, when everything just meant so much more, it’s going to take a lot for you to ever put Derrick Rose above Zeke on your hierarchy. If you were raised on Clyde Drexler, you don’t want to hear that Dwyane Wade might be a new and improved Glide.

I’m not immune. I grew up in Seattle during the ‘80s and ‘90s, and I still get offended when anybody starts putting Chris Paul and Blake Griffin in the same conversation as Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp. We all do it. Some of us have just lost a little touch with reality.

Nostalgia run amok is why too many NBA fans and media talk as if Scottie Pippen could’ve kept The Iron Monger scoreless for 48 minutes; as if Kevin McHale had 4,001 post moves in his arsenal and 163 more that he never found time to use; as if Bill Russell blocked 20,000 shots and never let ANY of them sail out of bounds.

It’s why ridiculous claims are made that Hakeem Olajuwon would’ve dropped 60 on Dwight Howard; and Charles Barkley would’ve left Chris Bosh in a quivering heap; and John Stockton and Karl Malone combined for 36,000 points using nothing but picks and rolls – and that CP3 and Griffin could never execute the same play as perfectly because, well, they’re not Stockton and Malone.

It’s why a talent like Pierce – or Kobe, or LeBron, apparently – cannot enter an argument against a Bird or Magic Johnson and get a fair shake on the scorecards. (And don’t even try poking a hole in the invincibility of Michael Jordan’s legacy.) It’s like a never-ending road game in hostile territory; like going into the heart of Culiacán hoping to win a decision against Julio Cesar Chavez. It just ain’t gonna happen.

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  • http://www.bettlejuiceXs3.com Chicagorilla

    @AB

    Yes great point on the front offices of the Lakers and Celtics. Considering that both franchises have raped the entire NBA since it started.

    Chicago and San Antonio on the other hand haven’t. Chicago sucked balls before MJ and as soon as MJ left they sucked again.
    Did they bring in Scottie and Phil sure. Hand claps for that. You can even give them props for Ho Grant (although he wasn’t shyt after Chicago)
    They aslo jagged every other pick.
    -Brad Sellers instead of Mark Price/Kevin Duckworth (from IL)/Dennis Rodman/Jeff Hornecek(from IL)?
    - Will Purdue instead of Rod Strickland/Grant Long/Harvey Grant(Horace’s Brother)?
    - Stacey King instead of Mookie Blaylock/Tim Hardaway (from IL)/Shawn Kemp/Vlade Divac?
    - Jason Caffey instead of Mike Finley (from IL)
    - corey Benjamin instead of Nazhr Muhammad (from IL), Ruben Patterson, Cat Mobley
    - Elton Brand over Baron davis, Odom, Steve Francis which became a real problem when they decided to trade him for Tyson Chandler…then later trade Chandler!
    – Jay Williams instead of Amare Stoudimire
    - Marcus Fizer instead of Quentin richardson (from IL),
    - Drafting Khalid El Amin, Jake Voskul, AJ Guyton while Michael Redd was still on the board!!!
    -picking Jamal Crawford then letting him go for nothing

    Drafting guys like Byron houston, Dickey Simpkins, Travis Knight, Keith Booth, Rusty Lurue

    hiring Tim f^cking Floyd

    I can keep going but I have to go so i can’t go any further or get into the Spurs. Point is, both organizations got VERY LUCKY picking up a great player (Jordan/Robinson/Duncan) and pairing them with awesome coaches (Phil/Tex/Pop)

  • http://www.dimemag.com Austin Burton

    @Chicagorilla — Call it luck or call it skill; point is that Paul Pierce or LeBron or Dwight Howard or whoever can’t hire their own coach and draft/trade/sign their own teammates. Some things are out of their hands.

    You have to give the Bulls front office credit for bringing in Rodman, Kerr, Paxson, Cartwright, Levingston and whoever else you believe contributed positively to Jordan/Pippen’s 6 championships. You can’t give anybody else credit for building the team. Unless your argument is that those players stunk and Jordan/Pippen personally molded them into good players.

  • Celts Fan

    @Chi – it’s wicked easy to go back and blame people after you’ve seen these guys play. Brand was the clear-cut, #1 prospect in that draft (and to put Steve Francis on that list is beyond laughable. Tht clown SUCKED unless you want a poor man’s DRose tht didn’t make guys better and turned the ball over constantly,) Williams was the clear-cut #2 prospect in his draft while Amare had major character concerns at the time (5 HS’s in 4 yrs,) and NO ONE knew Michael Redd would be anything like what he became, INCLUDING MILWAUKEE. You can’t say, “We definitely should have drafted the guy that went 11th with the 1st pick cuz he ended up being better and I know that now,” cuz at the time, the GM would have gotten KILLED in the media. Hindsite’s 20/20, but GM’s don’t have that luxury.

  • http://www.dimemag.com Austin Burton

    @Celts Fan — Exactly. That’s why I hate it when media/fans kill a team for a “draft bust” when EVERYBODY was high on that particular player at the time of the draft.

    Case in point: Kwame Brown. I definitely remember some writers and analysts at big-time publications like ESPN and SI talking about Kwame being the next KG, a guy who could some day lead the league in rebounding, etc. Michael Jordan wasn’t the only person who thought taking Kwame #1 was a great idea.

    And the thing is, it wasn’t a terrible idea. Kwame would’ve been fine if the Wizards had stuck to their rebuilding plan and brought him along slowly, but Jordan decided he wanted to come back as a player and the focus became winning NOW, which thrust Kwame into a position where he had no more leeway to develop and was expected to be good immediately. I truly think it was too much for him to handle (especially with MJ’s personality) and that’s what made him a “bust.”

  • http://www.bettlejuiceXs3.com Chicagorilla

    @AB and Celts Fan

    Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Fool me 38X’s and im a f^cking idiot.
    The Bulls have made mistake after mistake after mistake in the front office.

    You can bad mouth Steve Francis all you want, but that’s just your personal opinion. Dude was an elite PG from the moment he came into the NBA. And i would rather have had 7-8yrs of Steve Francis rather than 2yrs of Elton Brand. By the way, Steve played in the playoffs a few times and played well. Brand has been there like 2 times in a 10+yr career.

    I’m not giving the Bulls props for bringing in Cliff f^cking Levingston, Bobby Hansen,BJ Armstrong, John Paxson,OLD Dennis Rodman or Bill CArtwright. Not when we could have had Tim Hardaway, Mark Price, Kevin Duckworth or the YOUNG Dennis Rodman. Other than Rodman none of those dudes were irreplaceable. Not one! And they all sucked after they left Jordan/Bulls. Not one had more than one good year after they left chicago. Even Steve Kerr sucked a$$ until he hit one big shot for the Spurs. Other than that he was garbage.

    I’ve listed on this site before how terrible Jordan’s teammates have been throughout his career and how he/Pippen/Triangle offense made them look much better than what they were. Same goes for Tim Duncan/Popavich with San Antonio. when guys leave them they don’t get better or play big roles elsewhere. They fade away.

    @AB
    Can Dwight and those guys pick their GMs no. But there are only a few GMs or organization in the NBA who are as lucky (meaning they steal players) as the Celtics and Lakers every decade. The Bulls were great during the 90′s because of MJ. Then 1998 came and they were irrelevant for 10 f^cking years! Then we “luck up” (meaning Stern cheated and gave us the #1 pick) and draft Derrick rose.

    Same goes for the Spurs. They sucked during the 80s. Got David robinson, were OKAY at best during the early 90′s. Robinson sits out a year and they luck up and get Tim Duncan (whom the Celtics nearly got…what a coincidence) and later Greg Popavich. 2yrs later…NBA Title. And when Duncan retires, so will the talks of the so called “great” front office of the Spurs. Who will go back to sucking.

  • Big Island

    I’m not saying Pierce is garbage, or GM’s don’t play a role, or anything like that. I’m not getting into whether or not Paul Pierce is a jacker, or overrated, or underrated and a killer. I hate the guy, but Pierce is one of the best Celtics of all time. You can’t call it any other way. Bird is one of the best players in the history of the NBA. I hate the guy, but you can’t call it any other way.

    Do not, under any circumstances, ANY, use Rudy Gay as an example of a basketball player. He is the single most overrated player in the history of basketball.

  • Nyeme

    @Chigorilla – That’s what I be trying to tell people. Pierce was the better scorer, especially after Toine cease being Cyber-Toine and fell in love with the 3 but Toine handled the ball, ran the offense, and was the leader of the team. Remember it took them getting Toine back to make that playoff push.

  • Celts Fan

    @Big Island – nope, most over-rated player ever was Steve Francis. I wish they’d had PER back then just to see if it’s possible to have a negative one.

    @Nyeme – that’s circumstantial on Toine. We’d had Raef Lafrentz, JR Bremer, Walter McCarty, and Tony Battie prominently involved. Even MJ or Kobe couldn’t do much beyond maybe cop an 8 seed with that level of “talent” around them. Toine was good, but it was Pierce’s team at that point. Trust me, I was there for most of those games and been a season ticket holder since Toine’s rookie year. The team became Pierce’s by his 3rd year at the latest. Toine was a good #2 for a while, but not like he’s ever been elite or anything. Doesn’t matter, but trust me, that’s how it was. By his 2nd go-around, Toine was more of a fan-favorite than a legit go-to-guy or worth-while #2 for a good squad. He consistently averaged over 3 turnovers per, under 70% from the stripe, low-to-mid 30s from 3, and low 40s from the field. I loved the Wiggle and like dude and think his financial issues are heart=breaking (note to youngsters, DO NOT HANG W/ JORDAN. YOU DON’T HAVE THE $$$ TO KEEP UP,) but dude wasn’t that good in context here. No team’s gonna average 50ppg, so someone’s gotta get those #s…

  • http://www.bettlejuiceXs3.com Chicagorilla

    @Celtsfan

    Im not saying it was Toine’s team, but im not saying it was soley Pierce’s team either.

    it was more of a 1a/1b thing during their time together. Kinda like Wade and Lebron right now.

    Also, please don’t put MJ and Kobe in the same sentence when speaking about making teammates better. As you can see above, I’ve listed the scrubs that MJ won championships with. While Kobe spent much of his time running off or silencing talent.

  • http://www.bettlejuiceXs3.com Chicagorilla

    @AB

    I know you’re going to look at that last post and say

    “See that’s what im talking about. You make it seem like Kobe shouldn’t even be mentioned in the same breath as MJ”

    And yes you would be right. As i’ve stated time and time ago i have no respect for Kobe’s numbers or his first 3 rings. If there was ever a circumstantial player in the NBA (like you suggested with MJ, Duncan, Bird, PP) it’s Kobe. If Kobe wasn’t given the hype of being a Laker he would have been labeled as the selfish chucker that he is. Everything he’s done on the court is no different that what Allen Iverson or Dominique Wilkins did.
    Not only do i not think Kobe is even within 100yards of MJ, i wouldn’t even put him in the top 15 players of all time off the top of my head. And that has nothing to do with his talent, but everything to do with his selfishness. No way in hell would I want that dude on my team. I think he is way more talented than say….Ray Allen. but give me Ray anyday over him.

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